Sadaam Captured Alive

[Jonbo298]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/iraq_saddam

Take time to read. Basically to sum it up, the US captured Sadaam alive and has already done a DNA test and has proved 100% it is him.

All I felt when I heard this was meh, but maybe its just me.....

[Canyarion]

Me(h) too... The whole Iraq mission was a disaster. They better find Bin Laden. :unsure:

[Perfect Stu]

Despite personal reactions, this is big, good news...anyway you look at it. If someone feels differently, speak up. When you see the people in Iraq celebrate...with signs of relief and triumph on their faces...they know there's no way he's coming back to ruin their lives.

[Bond]

Sorry, I can't find the BS meter for you Angrist. :(

This is very good news. I'm surprised they were able to capture him. Although it seemed as though he almost wanted to be captured...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3113417.stm

[Vampyr]

Despite personal reactions, this is big, good news...anyway you look at it. If someone feels differently, speak up. When you see the people in Iraq celebrate...with signs of relief and triumph on their faces...they know there's no way he's coming back to ruin their lives.

Agreed. This is extremely good news. All you guys who think "meh" when you read this have problems.

[ominub]

for some reason i dont care i think its because im really tired right now

[Jonbo298]

Agreed. This is extremely good news. All you guys who think "meh" when you read this have problems.

I'll say that this is a big thing for the US, but personal feelings are just meh. I don't care that he was caught. 5 to 1 says that Bush incorporates Sadaam's capture into his 2004 re-election campaign.

[The Germanator]

Sadaam looks much cooler with that beard.

[Perfect Stu]

Sadaam looks much cooler with that beard.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/pe3a3d6dd44285135667b19d1f0e00074/fa4da9e5.jpg

[Dark Samurai]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/pe3a3d6dd44285135667b19d1f0e00074/fa4da9e5.jpg

NICE!!!!

anyway for sure bush is going to use this in his next campaign

but i think we all know that america will not vote for him

(well at least i wont)

remember he KILLS any economy that he touches i.e. U.s. and iraq (i think)

Rev. Al Sharpton for Prez 2004!!!

[DimHalo]

This is great news for the US. But my only personal feelings are: "does this mean my dad is coming home?" and my reply to that is probably not so then my response is "that's nice, but oh well."

[gekko]

5 to 1 says that Bush incorporates Sadaam's capture into his 2004 re-election campaign.

Well no ****. Name one President who didn't put his accomplishments into his re-election campaign. Get a clue.

but i think we all know that america will not vote for him

(well at least i wont)

remember he KILLS any economy that he touches i.e. U.s. and iraq (i think)

Rev. Al Sharpton for Prez 2004!!!

Wow, we have a ****ing political expert on our hands, amazing (i think). Maybe you should try research before you try to act like you actually know what you're talking about (i think).

[gekko]

This is great news for the US. But my only personal feelings are: "does this mean my dad is coming home?" and my reply to that is probably not so then my response is "that's nice, but oh well."

What unit is your Dad with? The DoD is replacing 128,000 of about 150,000 troops in Iraq. CamFu's supposed to be home early, the 82nd Airborne is being replaced in March by I MEF. Find out the unit, there's a good chance he is coming home.

And who's going to replace them? Me! Get some! :minigun:

[Jonbo298]

Well no ****. Name one President who didn't put his accomplishments into his re-election campaign. Get a clue.

:lol: I was waiting for replies like this...keep'em coming people:D

[CrOnO_LiNk]

When I woke up this morning, I turned my computer on and went to my home page (Yahoo), and read the front page news... Damn, this is awesome.

God Bless America!

[Canyarion]

I was wondering, with what do they compare his DNA? They have a bank of all villain's DNA or something? :confused:
I'm happy that they caught a bad guy... but I'm not happy for Bush. Sorry...

[Vampyr]

I was wondering, with what do they compare his DNA?

Me too.

[Blackmane]

Yay, they finally got him....


...or one of his hundreds of doubles.

[thatmariolover]

Yeah. I mean, I'm excited and appreciative of what was done in Iraq. To me though, our presence in Iraq is really starting to parallel what happened in Vietnam. Many of our troops are getting picked off like flies; and while I really think that the goal was good, I think that there are a lot of soldiers over there that really don't appreciate the way things are being done, and I really can't blame them. It's a great accomplishment, no doubt about it. But for some reason, it just feels like something much bigger is about to begin.

At any rate, yay. I guess I've never felt any surge of patriotism (call me un-American if you like). At any rate, I'm not going to argue the politics of it. Everybody's got an opinion. I respect what was done, and I think that's all I'm going to be responsible for in terms of this.

[Bond]

I was wondering, with what do they compare his DNA? They have a bank of all villain's DNA or something? :confused:
I'm happy that they caught a bad guy... but I'm not happy for Bush. Sorry...
They have some type of sample of his DNA. I forget what it is from though...

And Jonbo, you did state the obvious there, can't blame gekko for saying that. Your beloved far left Howard Dean would do the same. He might explode before that though.

NICE!!!!

anyway for sure bush is going to use this in his next campaign

but i think we all know that america will not vote for him

(well at least i wont)

remember he KILLS any economy that he touches i.e. U.s. and iraq (i think)

Rev. Al Sharpton for Prez 2004!!!
You think he kills any economy that he touches? OK...

If you have looked at the market lately it is doing quite well and it will do even better with Saddam captured.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031214/capt.ny12012141355.mideast_iraq_saddam_ny120.jpg

[Jason1]

Its good that we finally got him, but im not going any further than that. Most of you know where I stand.

[GameMaster]

This is big, joyous news.

We should have a virtual party.

[bobcat]

*passes round the virtual scotch shots*

mmm virually satisfying

[Dark Samurai]

Wow, we have a ****ing political expert on our hands, amazing (i think). Maybe you should try research before you try to act like you actually know what you're talking about (i think).

Hey maybe i did. and guess what? its right here

http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9402E0D9123BF93AA2575AC0A9679C8B63

go ahead and read it. and guess who was pres. then? and now?

You think he kills any economy that he touches? OK...

If you have looked at the market lately it is doing quite well and it will do even better with Saddam captured.


Yes you are right. the u.s. economy is going up because of the capture but the iraqi economy is not. take a look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3181248.stm

and this was just about 2 months ago

[Bond]

Hey maybe i did. and guess what? its right here

http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9402E0D9123BF93AA2575AC0A9679C8B63

go ahead and read it. and guess who was pres. then? and now?



Yes you are right. the u.s. economy is going up because of the capture but the iraqi economy is not. take a look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3181248.stm

and this was just about 2 months ago
Here we go again...

I'm not even going to bother to register at the NY Times website. But I can assure you they are one of the most liberal newspapers in the country.

And for Iraq's economy, months after taking over a country you can't exactly expect them to have a booming economy. Iraq will have a booming economy in a few years though, just wait.

Democracy + Iraq's Resources = Lots of Money

[Dylflon]

I think it's stupid that America is saying that Canada can't help rebuild Iraq.

The Iraqis should be more important than contracts.

I remember hearing from my dad that last month some representative from the Middle East formally requested for Canada to rebuild Iraq. Not their buildings. Their country. That made me proud to be a Canadian.

[Professor S]

Ok, let me address a couple of ideas expressed here:

1) The US Economy - Its back up over 10,000 and all signs point to it being even better after Christmas. Also, if you know ANYTHING about the economy, you know that it was the inflated tech stocks and corporate scandals that killed it. All of the damage was done during Clinton's presidency. Bush has had to deal with someone else's screw up. The unemployment rate is starting to go down as well (finally).

2) DNA - There are any number of ways that you can get someone's DNA. A tooth brush, comb, coins, clothes, etc.

3) The Iraq Economy - As was mentioned, its a rebiulding nation that is trying to establish a democracy amid constant attacks by terrorists. Not exactly the environment that breeds confidence in the Dinar from foreign investors. It also doesn't help that our good friends the French, Russians and Germans still refuse to forgive the enormous debt that was accrued under Saddam.

4) Canadians and Others not Getting Contracts - It ain't the UN thats paying for this... its the Coalitions (mainly American too). So you should get OUR MONEY when you're government opposed the action to begin with? I believe the contracts should go to those who have stood by and bled with us in Iraq. Just call me crazy. The fact that you would even expect to get any large contracts from this is insulting and unbelieveably ignorant.

Besides, its all much ado about nothing. Canada, France Germany and Russia will still get contracts, they will just have to be sub-contracted by those who are in the coalition. Get over it.

5) Saddam's Capture - Great news, but I would have preferred they did him like his sons: Kill him and then send out pictures for confirmation. My worry is that if we try him in a court of law it will only serve to give him a soap box before he is found guilty and killed, or worse yet cause un-needed terrorist attacks or hostage situations. Anyway you shake it he's going to die, and everything else is just for show.

6) Iraq Another Vietnam - Oh do shut up. That statement just screams "I'm an idiot. Don't pay attention to me." The only similarity is that guerilla warfare is being employed. THATS IT. Believing that Iraq is another Vietnam is the same as saying the war is "blood for oil" or "conservatives are rascist/evil/baby rapists". It just frees you from the burden of having to think.

I'm very interested to see how the Democratic presidential candidates respond to this news. I think it will be pretty interesting (especially from Dean who has been so vehement in his opposition)

As for the election? If the economy continues to improve and Saddam's capture proves to be as much of a boon to the chances for success in Iraq as I believe it will be, Dean and company can pretty much pack it up. In the end I think that it will come down to how the turnover of Iraq to the native people will go. If it goes poorly, Bush is in trouble. If it goes well, he's sticking around.

But who knows? There's still a long time to come before the next election.

[Dylflon]

4) Canadians and Others not Getting Contracts - It ain't the UN thats paying for this... its the Coalitions (mainly American too). So you should get OUR MONEY when you're government opposed the action to begin with? I believe the contracts should go to those who have stood by and bled with us in Iraq. Just call me crazy. The fact that you would even expect to get any large contracts from this is insulting and unbelieveably ignorant.

Besides, its all much ado about nothing. Canada, France Germany and Russia will still get contracts, they will just have to be sub-contracted by those who are in the coalition. Get over it.


We don't give a **** about contracts. We're more interested in helping Iraqis. That may be hard for you to understand but that's our take on things. People before profit. Sure there are some crooked politicians here too. But most Canadians would agree with me in saying that helping the people of Iraq is more important than making any sort of personal gain in the deal.

When, discussing politics, you don't look from other people's points of view. You just shoot what others believe down and insult them. That really makes you look like a prick. Try being just the tiniest bit polite.

[Bond]

We don't give a **** about contracts. We're more interested in helping Iraqis. That may be hard for you to understand but that's our take on things. People before profit. Sure there are some crooked politicians here too. But most Canadians would agree with me in saying that helping the people of Iraq is more important than making any sort of personal gain in the deal.

When, discussing politics, you don't look from other people's points of view. You just shoot what others believe down and insult them. That really makes you look like a prick. Try being just the tiniest bit polite.
I believe Strangler made the point quite clear and simple. It is the United State's money and the United States can do what they want with their own money. It is only logical to not allow any countries that did not support the war to be able to profit from the rebuilding of that country. You also have to consider France and Germany were racking in billons of dollars from Saddam... illegally I might add. You may find it unfair to exclude Canada from bidding, but then it would be unfair to only allow one country that did not support the war to bid.

And a lot of times it is not about shooting people's points of view down, it's about shooting down their misinformed ideas.

[Dylflon]

Granted, but others may think you're misinformed.

*flees*

[Joeiss]

Ok, I will step in now. I think that it is great news the Saddam has been captured. I personally thought he would have put up a fight, maybe with a couple of armed guards with him too, but he didn't. I just think he looks tired and worn out... I think he knows how messed up he is, and now justice will be served.

Canada is contributing with the effort in Iraq. We are not proving men or equipment for two reasons: The war on Iraq is not a UN approved war, and we simply do not have the troops to send. We have many of our troops in Afghanistan and other parts around the world keeping peace. I feel that now that Martin is Prime Minister, and Saddam has been captured, we will send in a 1-3 thousand soldiers in the next 3-6 months to help keep the streets of Iraq safe.

Does Canada deserve contracts to rebuild Iraq? Yes and no. Canada has been contributing money to the war effort, just not men. If I were in America's shoes, I wouldn't let some country who didn't back me publicly in on the money that will be made.


And gekko, when did you get back? Welcome home man. How did boot camp go? Good to have you back man.

[Professor S]

Yes Canada has sent help in the form of aid, but they also made it abundantly clear that they were against the war. And if all the Canadian companies cared about was helping poor Iraqis, they wouldn't care about having to accept sub-contracting work. Its about the money. Don't kid yourself, Dyflon.

Now I have nothing against Canada. They've always been good allies and of all the countries against the war, they were the most considerate and sensible about it. But they should not expect to get paid by the US to fix up Iraq when those moneys could go towards US and allied companies, which will eventually trickle down to Canada, etc anyway.

[GameKinG]

You want contracts to help iraqi's but you wont support a war to help iraqis. Hmmm...

[DimHalo]

I believe Strangler made the point quite clear and simple. It is the United State's money and the United States can do what they want with their own money. It is only logical to not allow any countries that did not support the war to be able to profit from the rebuilding of that country. You also have to consider France and Germany were racking in billons of dollars from Saddam... illegally I might add. You may find it unfair to exclude Canada from bidding, but then it would be unfair to only allow one country that did not support the war to bid.

And a lot of times it is not about shooting people's points of view down, it's about shooting down their misinformed ideas.
I agree entirely here. And I really don't see how it is such a big deal if Canada doesn't want the money. If they were in it for just helping they would not be so concerned with getting the contract from the US

[thatmariolover]

Ok, let me address a couple of ideas expressed here...

I think the operative word in that sentence is "ideas". You are welcome to disagree with me, or anybody else on this forum. But the truth is, we are all expressing ideas. I expressed mine, but I didn't insult somebody else. Learn some manners before you join the outside world. Gekko, I respect what you're saying, but you could be a bit more tactful as well (no doubt I'll get flamed for this, but whatever).

As to my comment about Vietnam, perhaps I should have been a bit more clear. I didn't really type what I meant because I rushed myself, and that probably warrents your arguement (I have since edited my old post to better reflect what I meant). I also meant that the soldiers view on this war isn't popularly the same as Mr. Bush (and I think his would change if he were the one on the line).

At any rate, rhetoric is a bit more convincing than hot words. I've learned my lesson with this time and time again (as I started on NDose as a cocky little tech-head).

Look, we've all got something to say. A fool speaks because he has to say something; a wise-man speaks because he has something to say.

[DimHalo]

A fool speaks because he has to say something; a wise-man speaks because he has something to say.

Nice quote, where did you steal it from? :D

[thatmariolover]

Nice quote, where did you steal it from? :D

I can't remember. Actually, I think there was a "favorite quotes" thread on here a while ago and that one stuck in my head.

[Jewels]

heres my opinion.... for the troops over their, maybe some of them can actually come home and stop slaving under bush, and they can come home intime for the damn holidays to see their families now that this idiot is captured... took em long enough, but as for saddam.... since its REALLY him, i vote, say this how we americans hate terrorists, bend him over, pant an emerican flag on a boot, kick him in the ass, turn him around and then shoot him.... and then that'll end that...


*my opinion*

[DeathsHand]

blah blaaah political arguements from the usual players etc etc...

I havn't read the whole topic because it's too long for me to read at 1AM...

Has anybody mentioned anything about how we were complaining about our captured troops being all over the news in that area of the world, and us complaining about how it's not right etc etc, then Saddam gets caught and we're like yay Saddam look here he is getting a check-up! We got him! Look! Video! VIDEO LOOK IT'S SADDAM! AND HE'S GETTING CHECKED FOR LICE HAHAHA!...?

Just curious...

[mickydaniels]

Democracy + Iraq's Resources = Lots of Money

And that's what it's all about. :(

[Dylflon]

You know what I think is a bit weird? America sent troops into Iraq because they thought they "might have weapons" but North Korea announced that they had nukes and America isn't fighting any war there. The people of North Korea are suffering and being oppressed too.

*No insult to Americans intended in paragraph below*

If your government is so noble, why aren't they helping North Korea? Why was Iraq so important when there was only a possibility of weapons of mass destruction? Now I don't know for sure if the war in Iraq was about oil but this makes it seem that way. If North Korea had oil would there be a war there?

The war against North Korea I'm sure would be a U.N. sanctioned war. That means it wouldn't just be America in there. Everyone would get involved. Especcialy Canada.

[thatmariolover]

If your government is so noble, why aren't they helping North Korea? Why was Iraq so important when there was only a possibility of weapons of mass destruction? Now I don't know for sure if the war in Iraq was about oil but this makes it seem that way. If North Korea had oil would there be a war there?

While I can see where you're coming from, I think it's probably a bit different when you know somebody's already got nukes pointed at your balls. I'm not the happy go lucky blind patriot fanboy that thinks his government is so great and noble. So I don't really think there's any reason to argue with you.

I guess, for me, I think that the real issue is an immature family vengance issue. Bush's daddy couldn't get Saddam, so his son's going to do it for him. Just because he's got the power. Which is also why Bin Laden has (seemingly) been put on the back burner. I have a feeling that'll earn some flames as well. But I suppose that's unavoidable.

[Professor S]

While I can see where you're coming from, I think it's probably a bit different when you know somebody's already got nukes pointed at your balls. I'm not the happy go lucky blind patriot fanboy that thinks his government is so great and noble. So I don't really think there's any reason to argue with you.

I guess, for me, I think that the real issue is an immature family vengance issue. Bush's daddy couldn't get Saddam, so his son's going to do it for him. Just because he's got the power. Which is also why Bin Laden has (seemingly) been put on the back burner. I have a feeling that'll earn some flames as well. But I suppose that's unavoidable.

Well when you post ideas that are that stupid, you will get flamed. These theories of "blood for oil", "a war for daddy", etc. are just that: STUPID. S-T-U and a P-I-D. And thats MY opinion. Anbd for the record, I'm not flaming you. I'm calling two of your ideas idiotic, not yourself. There's a difference. You are obviously not a stupid person.

You are free to have your own opinion, but if you want it to be respected try putting a little more thought and research into it before getting diarhea of the mouth. There are plenty of reasons and theories behind the war that are valid and not Nationalistic in the least, but they require research and not just saying the first thing that comes off the top of your head or worse just repeating what some other ignorant schmuck was raving about.

As for Korea, I actually agree with you. The last time I heard they estimated that over 5 million would die in a war with North Korea. Thats a bit more that the relatively few casualties that occurred in the Gulf Wars.

[thatmariolover]

Well when you post ideas that are that stupid, you will get flamed. These theories of "blood for oil", "a war for daddy", etc. are just that: STUPID. S-T-U and a P-I-D. And thats MY opinion. Anbd for the record, I'm not flaming you. I'm calling two of your ideas idiotic, not yourself. There's a difference. You are obviously not a stupid person.

If they're so stupid, why don't you offer some better ones instead of flaming other peoples? It just seems like if mine are so bad you must have some damn good ones that you're comparing them to.

[Rndm_Perfection]

The issue at hand is simple. Saddam, a tyrant and ruler for a multitude of decades, has finally been apprehended. The death tole he has created is far greater than the loss of International troops in Iraq. He's an evil man, and served as a menace to humanity.

Iraq is, whether you like it or not, going to be Westernized and turned into an effective trading nation that can help the global modern situation, rather than injure it. The time for change is now.


As for trials for Saddam... I agree whole-heartedly with Strangler that it is a shame to see Saddam living. I'm not sure how the Iraqi populace would react to the "fair trial" of their dictator as opposed to just his simple death (When it comes to mass psychology, I draw a blank). However, I do feel I know the poor resultants of a trial... he will once again get his voice to his people. So long as he lives, a certain morale will stay high for those opposing American Iraqi occupation. On the other hand, however... now that he's in captivity, killing him may possibly turn him into some twisted Tyrannical Martyr.

I can only fear the worst of the situation, but I most definately hope for the best. Yesterday was a wonderful day. There's nothing else to it.

[Dylflon]

I agree Rndm. I was just abut to post the martyr thing. That wouldn't be good. He'd only survive about 10 years in prison. I think he should just rot in a jail cell for the rest of his life.


Strangler, if you want people to look at your side of the argument you should stop being so rude. You can't call someone else's idea stupid because you don't agree with it. I think some of the things you have said are stupid but you don't see me calling you or your ideas stupid. It's not fair to force your ideas on everyone and call other people's ideas stupid. That makes you seem very ignorant. Whether you are or not, i don't know. But I do know that you can't just thrust your ideas out there and act like they were written in the Bible or something. Putting people down isn't the proper way to get your point across.

[Bond]

You know what I think is a bit weird? America sent troops into Iraq because they thought they "might have weapons" but North Korea announced that they had nukes and America isn't fighting any war there. The people of North Korea are suffering and being oppressed too.

Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction. Saddam used them against his own people. It's not a question of whether or not Saddam had them. It's a question of where they are. I would agree with you in that we should also go after North Korea, but that would result in huge casualties that the public would not support. And you can only go after so many tyrants at a time. You can help some people sometimes, but you can't help all the people all the time (altered Bob Marley quote)

[Ace195]

4) Canadians and Others not Getting Contracts - It ain't the UN thats paying for this... its the Coalitions (mainly American too). So you should get OUR MONEY when you're government opposed the action to begin with? I believe the contracts should go to those who have stood by and bled with us in Iraq. Just call me crazy. The fact that you would even expect to get any large contracts from this is insulting and unbelieveably ignorant.

Besides, its all much ado about nothing. Canada, France Germany and Russia will still get contracts, they will just have to be sub-contracted by those who are in the coalition. Get over it.

5) Saddam's Capture - Great news, but I would have preferred they did him like his sons: Kill him and then send out pictures for confirmation. My worry is that if we try him in a court of law it will only serve to give him a soap box before he is found guilty and killed, or worse yet cause un-needed terrorist attacks or hostage situations. Anyway you shake it he's going to die, and everything else is just for show.

6) Iraq Another Vietnam - Oh do shut up. That statement just screams "I'm an idiot. Don't pay attention to me." The only similarity is that guerilla warfare is being employed. THATS IT. Believing that Iraq is another Vietnam is the same as saying the war is "blood for oil" or "conservatives are rascist/evil/baby rapists". It just frees you from the burden of having to think.



I stand behind everythign the strangler said here, I know I'm a little late but I was dealing with things in my own life atm.. Being that I'm in the army and have had friends killed in combat, I don't think those who were against fighting and dying beside us should get jack.. Thats all :)
(edit)
Dyflon I am allowed to be rude because I've made no point whatsoever so "You are the weakest link goodbye!"

[Dylflon]

If I could help rebuild Iraq, it wouldn't be for personal gains. I think a lot of Canadians who want to lend a helping hand are more concerned about the people than getting anything..

[Ginkasa]

If I could help rebuild Iraq, it wouldn't be for personal gains. I think a lot of Canadians who want to lend a helping hand are more concerned about the people than getting anything..


As well do a lot of the American people; they either want to legitimately help out the Iraquis or just stay out of it. You seem to think that what the American politicans want is what the people want while what the Canadian people want is what the politicians want.

There may very well be a lot of Canadian people who sincerely want to help Iraq, but up top, its all money. Same here down south.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Bond]

If I could help rebuild Iraq, it wouldn't be for personal gains. I think a lot of Canadians who want to lend a helping hand are more concerned about the people than getting anything..
But it's not people who will do the majority of the "helping" it will be corporations. And corporations want money, that's how they stay in business. If the world were perfect everyone would lend a helping hand, but it's not. You have some points Dylflon, but most of them are extremely general and aren't really amounting to anything.

[DimHalo]

I just got an e-mail from my dad. His company was not the one that captured Sadaam and he won't be home for another 9 months. Here's a pic of his set up, not too bad huh?

[Dylflon]

I'm sorry that your dad won't be home for the holidays JS.

I think most of the soldiers should go home. They're just getting killed out there by angry civilians. It's time to let the soldiers return to their families.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Ah yes... there's a something that I forgot to make a point of in my previous post.

I'm surprised that so many are indifferent about the capture of Saddam, when it could be a great start to getting out of Iraq. I'm sure that's what most of you want. Also, the apprehension of Saddam is what much of the war was fought for. Let's not put to shame what our soldiers are fighting for in the Middle East.

[Bond]

More good news:

U.S. Snares Guerrilla Leader, 78 Others
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=5&u=/ap/20031216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

France, Germany to Help Ease Iraq's Debt
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20031216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saddam_baker_s_trip

France and Germany are probably doing this because most of their debt to Iraq is made up of weapons they sold to Saddam illegally. But that's not important...

[Professor S]

If they're so stupid, why don't you offer some better ones instead of flaming other peoples? It just seems like if mine are so bad you must have some damn good ones that you're comparing them to.

Mario, I have posted reason after reason after reason why I think this war happened in past threads. I'm not going to go re-research what you should have looked up yourself a long time ago before forming your simplistic theories, but I'll name a few off the top of my head:

1) 1.5 million Iraqi's dead by Saddam's hand.
2) 17 UN resolutions over 12 years condemning Iraq, while they did nothing to comply and the UN waffled as members of the Security Commission standed against conflict because they were owed BILLIONS by Saddam's regime.
3) 1,000 tons of chemical and biological weapons found in 1998 that are not accounted for.
4) Newly found proof that Saddam was tied to terrorism and trained those that were involved in 9/11 attack and made plans to ship weapons to Syria (see Daily Telegraph article that *shock* recieved little to no press from the US media)

But those are just my theories on why the war started and have nothing to do with intrenational law or God forbid, the FACTS. :rolleyes:

Dyflon, I'm sorry if I come off rude, but I am sick and tired of people spouting off about things they know nothing about when the result of those opinions could cost thousands or even millions of lives if terrorists and despots like Saddam are allowed to do whatever they please. Ignorance is just annoying by itself, but when that ignorance can do so much damage it becomes sinful and abhorrent.

But thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[thatmariolover]

The major theme of argument I’m going to use here is, “why now”.

1) 1.5 million Iraqi’s dead? Where did you get this number? I’m not discrediting you, but the highest I could find from an official government source (or any) was here: http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/crimes/
It clearly states 340,000; which is definitely a huge number. But that was from 1980-1988. Not anytime recently. There’s no arguing that this guy needed to be nailed, but why all of the sudden?

2) That’s absolutely true. But how has that changed anything recently? It hasn’t.

3) There’s a lot more than 1,000 tons missing (http://armedservices.house.gov/pressreleases/2003/IraqiWMDs.pdf). But again, it’s been a while. I understand that we needed to go after this guy, but what was the urgency? Osama Bin Laden attacked us much more recently, and he suddenly took a back-seat to Saddam.

4) I’ve actually already reviewed that article, and it’s a great find. But we didn’t find this memo 9 months ago. We found it now. If we had found it 9 months ago, this would be a damn valid reason for having dropped (or shifted) the matter at hand (Bin Laden). But we didn’t, and it’s not.

Who are you to judge what I know? You know what I hate? People who think they know what’s best for everybody else; people who shove their beliefs down other people’s throats. Ignorance is a sin, yes. It is up to us to educate ourselves, but beyond that there’s so much more. Just because you know what is going on doesn’t make your plan of action right. There are so many different ways to deal with every situation. That’s why we have a democracy. Not a dictatorship. Saddam was a dictator; what are you?

Look, it's obvious that we aren't going to agree on this topic. So let's just agree to disagree. Enough with the debating.

[BigJustinW]

Go Bush! :D

:sneaky:

All I know is, they should kill Saddam now... giving him a fair trial shows how weak the United States is. Too many lives were lost directly and indirectly because of this man. I wish I would have been the one to find him, he would have got a bullet in both knee caps before and pissed on before he would walk out of the room alive. This guy deserves to be in pain more than any person alive that I know.

US is supposed to be a powerhouse, but we act like little bitches. We should let those countries know that if they are gonna "F" with us they are going to be wiped off the face of the planet with no mercy whatsoever.

[Vampyr]

Go Bush! :D

:sneaky:

All I know is, they should kill Saddam now... giving him a fair trial shows how weak the United States is. Too many lives were lost directly and indirectly because of this man. I wish I would have been the one to find him, he would have got a bullet in both knee caps before and pissed on before he would walk out of the room alive. This guy deserves to be in pain more than any person alive that I know.

US is supposed to be a powerhouse, but we act like little bitches. We should let those countries know that if they are gonna "F" with us they are going to be wiped off the face of the planet with no mercy whatsoever.


I very strongly disagree with that. During wartime, you do whatever you have to do to destroy the enemy. Using A-Bombs, Nukes, whatever it takes, you give it to them hard and fast and show them that no one F*cks with you.

But if you capture the main guy and have him in custody, you dont just kill him in cold blood. Dont get me wrong, Im not standing up for Saddam, I just think that taking him back to Iraq and giving him a fair trial is a good idea. It will be a big step in the creation of a democratic country in Iraq.

[Joeiss]

Go Bush! :D

:sneaky:

All I know is, they should kill Saddam now... giving him a fair trial shows how weak the United States is. Too many lives were lost directly and indirectly because of this man. I wish I would have been the one to find him, he would have got a bullet in both knee caps before and pissed on before he would walk out of the room alive. This guy deserves to be in pain more than any person alive that I know.

US is supposed to be a powerhouse, but we act like little bitches. We should let those countries know that if they are gonna "F" with us they are going to be wiped off the face of the planet with no mercy whatsoever.

So, by sinning, you are creating good?

I thought you were a harcore Christian man....

[thatmariolover]

So, by sinning, you are creating good?

I thought you were a harcore Christian man....

I guess I myself don't think it's right to execute Saddam. I've never agreed with the death sentence.

But even though I disagree with BJW, I also disagree with you to a degree. I've always believed that if you are a "Christian", you don't judge other "Christians" as to how "Christian" they are. If they do or believe something you think is morally wrong, then say so. But I would just say that it's really not for anybody to tell anybody else they're sinning or un-Christian. Only one person can decide that.

[BigJustinW]

Vamp... it would help the democracy over there, that's a good point, but I believe keeping him alive can only hurt. As long as he is alive, his true followers will always be trying to free him and they will always have a reason to fight. Also, what jail would they be putting him in? A US one or Iraq one? By making an example of him they are just making him bigger than what he is, a hero in a way. (I forgot the word for it)

Think about it, if Jesus Christ just got his head chopped off like he was a normal man instead of being nailed to the cross do you think his story would have had just as big of an effect on people?

All US is doing by giving him a trail over there is focing his own people to betray him... what happens if the jury decides that he shouldn't go to jail? US kills him... the only way he lives is in prison. I don't see the point. US can make then think it's there own decision, but the truth is it isn't. If Saddam could, he would kill each and every one of us, and god forbid he get ahold of the president, do you think Bush would live 30 seconds under that man's watch? Hell no. And pics of Bush's dead body would be all over the news in Iraq (just like he had his own people), so why on earth should we let Saddam live?

and Joeiss, from what I know, war isn't a sin, he should have been killed on the battlefield just like all the others who died because of him.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Think about it, if Jesus Christ just got his head chopped off like he was a normal man instead of being nailed to the cross do you think his story would have had just as big of an effect on people?

Yaaay... religious remarks.

I'll try responding to this from a few viewpoints.


Christian:
Jesus is a very, very important part of our religion. It matters not how he died, but the fact that he did die for mankind's sake. He was the ultimate martyr.

Skeptic:
What makes you sure he was nailed to a cross? The bible wasn't written by the hand of God, but rather by humans. Humans definately listen to the will of God, but as you can see by the actions of some "Christians", they do not yield to the word of God entirely. There could've been some glorifying of Jesus' death.

Non-Christian:
How would that be possible? Man created Jesus as the ultimate martyr and role model. He could not "sin"... he was a flawless quasi-human. When designing Jesus, man made sure he could create the biggest impact possible. Fiction is created a way for a reason. Perhaps this should not be discussed in this forum.

Christian "Scientist" (aka: uncertain but wishes for "accuracy"):
There's a fairly good chance that being hung on a cross wasn't as obscure as you imagine at the time. Mayhaps regular "thieves" would be nailed to a cross... in fact, weren't there others with him nailed to a cross? Beheading, I imagine, wasn't a very common method of execution at the time.

Choose your pick =¬Þ, I really don't care which one you imagine I'd say. Based on my mood, I could've straight out said any of them and "meant" it.

[Ginkasa]

Let's try not to turn this into a religious debate. We've had too much of those in the past few months. Besides, its off topic anyway.

Anyway...

About in a war you have to use nukes and A-bombs, etc. to show the other country that they shouldn't "F" with us is just plain wrong. All that is is bullying only to an extent where millions of people would be killed.

War is not always just countries at each other's throats wanting to wipe each other out. This war in particular was not a war with Iraq as a whole but with Saddam's regime. Nuking the place not only would have made the war much larger than it would have to be (it would almost certainly draw other countries into the mix) but it would have also killed countless numbers of the people we were trying to save.

Thinking that war is just a school yard fight where the sole goal is to hurt the other guy as much as possible in any way possible is naive. Its people thinking things like that that will lead to nuclear war and holocaust.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Vampyr]

Let's try not to turn this into a religious debate. We've had too much of those in the past few months. Besides, its off topic anyway.

Anyway...

About in a war you have to use nukes and A-bombs, etc. to show the other country that they shouldn't "F" with us is just plain wrong. All that is is bullying only to an extent where millions of people would be killed.

War is not always just countries at each other's throats wanting to wipe each other out. This war in particular was not a war with Iraq as a whole but with Saddam's regime. Nuking the place not only would have made the war much larger than it would have to be (it would almost certainly draw other countries into the mix) but it would have also killed countless numbers of the people we were trying to save.

Thinking that war is just a school yard fight where the sole goal is to hurt the other guy as much as possible in any way possible is naive. Its people thinking things like that that will lead to nuclear war and holocaust.


*shrugs and walks away*


Ginkasa...Ginkasa....

Im not getting into this argument again, either. I had it a while back in the World Civ. forum. But it really gets under my skin...people who believe dropping the bombs in WWII was a bad idea, and think that it was "immoral" and "monstourous" or "unethical". It saved alot of peoples lives...and We would do it again if we had too.

In todays age, though, we dont go around droping Nukes and A-bombs on everyone that challenges us for a few reasons...:

1. In todays age, most countries have Nukes, unlike when the first A-bomb was dropped. So if we nuked some place right now, we would be hit with some pretty bad retaliation. Becuase they could drop a Nuke right back on us.

2. We wanted to keep Iraq on the map. We had interest to rebuild it. You dont go around dropping nukes in order to kill one man. (Saddam)

I never said that we should have dropped a Nuke on Iraq...that really would have been stupid. What I was trying to say is that if your in an all out war with an entire nation of enemies that will not give up, (Such as the Japs in WWII), then using the most brutal force possible is neccessary.

I was not saying you drop bombs on a country who metaphorically "flips you off."...

[BigJustinW]

Yaaay... religious remarks.

I'll try responding to this from a few viewpoints.


Christian:
Jesus is a very, very important part of our religion. It matters not how he died, but the fact that he did die for mankind's sake. He was the ultimate martyr.

Skeptic:
What makes you sure he was nailed to a cross? The bible wasn't written by the hand of God, but rather by humans. Humans definately listen to the will of God, but as you can see by the actions of some "Christians", they do not yield to the word of God entirely. There could've been some glorifying of Jesus' death.

Non-Christian:
How would that be possible? Man created Jesus as the ultimate martyr and role model. He could not "sin"... he was a flawless quasi-human. When designing Jesus, man made sure he could create the biggest impact possible. Fiction is created a way for a reason. Perhaps this should not be discussed in this forum.

Christian "Scientist" (aka: uncertain but wishes for "accuracy"):
There's a fairly good chance that being hung on a cross wasn't as obscure as you imagine at the time. Mayhaps regular "thieves" would be nailed to a cross... in fact, weren't there others with him nailed to a cross? Beheading, I imagine, wasn't a very common method of execution at the time.

Choose your pick =¬Þ, I really don't care which one you imagine I'd say. Based on my mood, I could've straight out said any of them and "meant" it.

I agree with all four of those reactions to some extent... but the fact is if others were killed on the cross the evidence was supressed, and apparently Jesus was the only one to get the nails put through his palms and the big nail through both of his legs.... if the others did, like I said before, evidence was held back ;)

(I would read and try to find out... but I'm not going to put that much effort into this post ;))

Oh, and thanks for finding the word for me "martyr"

[Joeiss]

Ya, dropping the A-Bomb in WWII was for the good. The huge sea/land battle in Japan would have left millions upon millions dead. Invading Japan would have been like D-Day multiplied by 27.45.

[ZEROCOOLER]

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushprecious.htm

[thatmariolover]

We definately needed to do something in Japan, but dropping that bomb was a bad idea in my opinion.

In Hiroshima, there were 120,000 casualties. 60,000 of which were deaths. That was out of a population of slightly over 200,000. It was mass murder. It wasn't to get to a specific target, it was just to flex some muscle and get some revenge. We could have done that without killing so many innocents.

That was a good find ZeroCooler. I particularly liked the point this one brought up.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_binladen.jpg

[BigJustinW]

We definately needed to do something in Japan, but dropping that bomb was a bad idea in my opinion.

In Hiroshima, there were 120,000 casualties. 60,000 of which were deaths. That was out of a population of slightly over 200,000. It was mass murder. It wasn't to get to a specific target, it was just to flex some muscle and get some revenge. We could have done that without killing so many innocents.

That was a good find ZeroCooler. I particularly liked the point this one brought up.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_binladen.jpg

define "innocent" in a war situation... The only innocent I know are non-supporters of the war... and children. But the powerful contries are the only ones that seem to fight fair anyway.

As fr the Bush thing, remember, the media shows us what they want us to see, and he was showing Osama what he wanted him to see. We won't ever know if he's telling the truth about not worrting about Osama or not.

[Professor S]

The major theme of argument I’m going to use here is, “why now”.

1) 1.5 million Iraqi’s dead? Where did you get this number? I’m not discrediting you, but the highest I could find from an official government source (or any) was here: http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/crimes/
It clearly states 340,000; which is definitely a huge number. But that was from 1980-1988. Not anytime recently. There’s no arguing that this guy needed to be nailed, but why all of the sudden?

2) That’s absolutely true. But how has that changed anything recently? It hasn’t.

3) There’s a lot more than 1,000 tons missing (http://armedservices.house.gov/pressreleases/2003/IraqiWMDs.pdf). But again, it’s been a while. I understand that we needed to go after this guy, but what was the urgency? Osama Bin Laden attacked us much more recently, and he suddenly took a back-seat to Saddam.

4) I’ve actually already reviewed that article, and it’s a great find. But we didn’t find this memo 9 months ago. We found it now. If we had found it 9 months ago, this would be a damn valid reason for having dropped (or shifted) the matter at hand (Bin Laden). But we didn’t, and it’s not.

Who are you to judge what I know? You know what I hate? People who think they know what’s best for everybody else; people who shove their beliefs down other people’s throats. Ignorance is a sin, yes. It is up to us to educate ourselves, but beyond that there’s so much more. Just because you know what is going on doesn’t make your plan of action right. There are so many different ways to deal with every situation. That’s why we have a democracy. Not a dictatorship. Saddam was a dictator; what are you?

Look, it's obvious that we aren't going to agree on this topic. So let's just agree to disagree. Enough with the debating.

Finally you show more than paper thin theories. You have expressed in detail your views, and I applaud ytou for that. Thats all I ever asked for to begin with. As you point out, I still don't agree with your reasoning, but mainly thats because your argument centers around the theory that because we didn't go into Baghdad in 1975 to remove him, there are no good reasons why we should go in and remove Saddam now.

You ask: "Why now?"

I ask: "If not now... when?"

[ZEROCOOLER]

We should not have even had to go in and take him out of power this time, the first Bush should've done it. Every American that is killed over there now is on Bush senior's hands.

[Bond]

Easy to say that now, isn't it?

[thatmariolover]

We should not have even had to go in and take him out of power this time, the first Bush should've done it. Every American that is killed over there now is on Bush senior's hands.

Hind-Sight is 20/20.

[Canyarion]

It's exactly 1 year ago.

[Bube]

Whoa! They captured Sadaam? I can't believe it!!! This is unbelievable!

[The Germanator]

Whoa! They captured Sadaam? I can't believe it!!! This is unbelievable!

OMG, the war will end very soon now.

Wait...nevermind...

[Fox 6]

Can't believe it's been a year.