poll

[Hero2]

just because Im bored and this thread died a little
how many people belive in god how many dont?



*edit* whoops if a mod could delete this, never mind delete the other one thx =-D

[GameMaster]

I believe!

[CrOnO_LiNk]

I believe!

[Rndm_Perfection]

I saw this thread, but I don't want to decide right now. That is... my "decision". Yes, my decision is indecision!

[Kitana85]

and thats a good decision

[The Duggler]

Not that I know of...

[Xantar]

Bah, I feel like stirring things a little.

So before I vote on the poll, I'm going to ask this: Define God.

And "that guy in the Bible" doesn't count. I might be Muslim and thus believe in a different God who is nonetheless, for most purposes, the same thing.

[Professor S]

I believe monotheism should suffice as a criteria.

[Crono]

I don't believe in a God.

[Jonbo298]

I have my own version of God, so that means I believe in some form of a god.:D

[TheGame]

Bah, I feel like stirring things a little.

So before I vote on the poll, I'm going to ask this: Define God.

A unexplainable power who both created us and everything else you know, and a invisible presense that is watching everybody in the world at the same time. A powerful being who you will not see in your current form.

That's not a 100% answer as far as I'm concerned, but basically that's it for most religions.

[Bond]

Bah, I feel like stirring things a little.

So before I vote on the poll, I'm going to ask this: Define God.

And "that guy in the Bible" doesn't count. I might be Muslim and thus believe in a different God who is nonetheless, for most purposes, the same thing.
You beat me to it!

Giving "God" a name was such a bad idea...

[ZebraRampage]

Bah, I feel like stirring things a little.

So before I vote on the poll, I'm going to ask this: Define God.

And "that guy in the Bible" doesn't count. I might be Muslim and thus believe in a different God who is nonetheless, for most purposes, the same thing.

God = Gravy

That's all there is to it...Mmmmm....gravy. Anyway, I made the same choice as Random on this one.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Anyway, I made the same choice as Random on this one.

I made a choice?


Heh, oh yeah... indecision ¦¬Þ

[Joeiss]

There is a God.

[WiseMan]

I think that god is real.

[The Germanator]

I think that God spells Dog backwards and vice versa.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I like how, since I didn't vote, I can view results and therefor see every what every member voted for. ... Yaaay

[mickydaniels]

This here by John Locke just says it all. Especially the first six points. (http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/publications/Projects/digitexts/locke/understanding/chapter0410.html)

[ominub]

i dont believe in god at all i just think that god heavan and hell and the devil is just some made up story
but thats just me

[Crono]

Seems like there are way more believers than non believers, heh.

[Rndm_Perfection]

This here by John Locke just says it all. Especially the first six points. (http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/publications/Projects/digitexts/locke/understanding/chapter0410.html)
Hmmm, I can't quite place my finger on it, but I find those points invalid. Particularly #3.

If a being cannot be created from "nothing", then there must obviously have been a being there to make it? That's so, so basic... and it creates paradoxes. The reasoning there is that humans can't just "be"... because we are humans, and we weren't just kind of here ("proven" at birth). Therefor, there must be something greater which made us. Case closed, right? Ahem... And what created that special something? Why would it be able to create itself while life has the inability to create itself? Why would the greater being create a life that "needs creations"? If it's impossible to understand something, how can you claim it is absolute?

Oh well, not my problem right now. I'm just going to "be".

[Hero2]

I would like to clarify my stance on god ace got my password and voted for me, I wasnt going to vote. hes just pissed because I was making fun of him for his low rep. now i got a lot of bad rep for voting for no god and it wasnt me it was ace that voted that way... SO stop with all the negitive rep im down to 50 :)

[mickydaniels]

I don't see what's so hard to imagine that there is something out there that just isn't perceptible to humans that is more powerful than us. The concept of infinity is known and understood in mathematics, but just can't exist in the case of a God?

[Vampyr]

I believe I can fly....

Oh, wait, thats not right...nevermind.

Yeah, I believe in God.

[Dylflon]

Why were the results made public. I think thats stupid.

[Hero2]

Why were the results made public. I think thats stupid.

man you complian too much and your just as critizing as Ginkasa J/K
=-D

[Dylflon]

man you complian too much and your just as critizing as Ginkasa J/K
=-D

Well sure I voted but that doesn't mean I'd like everyone to see it. I should have checked to see if the results were public or not i guess.

[Jonbo298]

Well sure I voted but that doesn't mean I'd like everyone to see it. I should have checked to see if the results were public or not i guess.

Not to sound mean or anything, but you can clearly see before you vote that it says "This is a public poll. Everyone can see your choice(s)" (not an exact quote, but close enough:p)

[Dylflon]

Yes. I know. But I was too care free and frolicky to look. I'm not mad. I just think this would have been better were the results private.

[Hero2]

make one thats priviate that way we cam compare results and see whos voting for god in front of others just to make themselfs look better(no im not being sarcastick or talking bad about you) it would be cool to compare results

[TheGame]

If it's what you belive, it's what you believe... If you are ashamed of what you think, well, that's your loss.

[Dylflon]

Bech. I'd rather go without explaining myself...but whatever.

I have a rather interesting view of things.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I don't see what's so hard to imagine that there is something out there that just isn't perceptible to humans that is more powerful than us. The concept of infinity is known and understood in mathematics, but just can't exist in the case of a God?

Bad example, come up with something more reasonable and I may argue. Infinity is a word that defines a proven situation, God is a term used to describe a belief of the creation of life. Infinity = Proven, God = not.

Believe me when I say this though, while I may doubt the existance of God, I do believe it does exist slightly more than I believe it doesn't. The "concept" is EASY to understand. A child could understand that, as well as someone of even less intelligence.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I have a rather interesting view of things.

Damn Elitist Narcissist

[mickydaniels]

If a being cannot be created from "nothing", then there must obviously have been a being there to make it?



And what created that special something?



I don't see what's so different about God and infinity.
No beginning and no end, is attributed to both.
Do you need to know what created him to believe in him? Do you need to know when he was born, and his approximate lifespan?
A perfect example to me is like trying to measure the distance from east to west. It just never ends.

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

[The Duggler]

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me. Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

[mickydaniels]

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?


Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right?

[TheGame]

Infinity = Proven, God = not.

Depends on your definition of proof... if you take the bible and read it like it's a history book, then it is proven recorded history, if you don't then you can't prove anything that has happend before your life span and that you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Some people "know" God is real just like people "know" George Washington was the first president... Neither of us can prove either thing w/o looking to other people's accounts. Even then, how many people walking the earth today got to see George Washington with thier own eyes, and had a conversation with him?

In a way there is no proof except in books that others wrote.

What do you accept as proof?

Mathematics is the only thing certain in this world, as is our very existance, anything and everything else we believe you chose to believe. Even more so for things that aren't documented history in our own lives.

It all depends on the person. If you want to approach the bible as some ficticious book when you read it, you won't believe it... not because it isn't true, it's because you don't believe it. Same goes for any other religious book... or any book for that matter.

[The Duggler]

Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right? Right, but I fail to see how anything ends. Let's take the atom for exemple, you can shatter it, but it will only separate into smaller particules, it doesn't end.

No energy is created, nor lost in the universe.

[mickydaniels]

Depends on your definition of proof... if you take the bible and read it like it's a history book, then it is proven, if you don't then you can't prove anything that has happend before your life span and that you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Some people "know" God is real just like people "know" George Washington was the first president... Neither of us can prove either thing w/o looking to other people's accounts.



That's everything right there.

Right but I fail to see how anything ends.
What I meant was existing forever. As in, people don't believe in God because he's supposed to have no beginning or end, and he's so powerful.
If you fail to see how anything ends, how do you explain how the people and animals that are dying everyday?

[The Duggler]

What I meant was existing forever. As in, people don't believe in God because he's supposed to have no beginning or end, and he's so powerful.
no no no, you said that because the elements in our universe are "finite" that they couldn't have been there forever unlike god. And I replied saying that the elements are as infinite as your god is. So the godless theory is as good as yours in terms of infinity.

If you fail to see how anything ends, how do you explain how the people and animals that are dying everyday.A change of state?

[mickydaniels]

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.

No energy created or lost.
But, if you take the hydrogen atom and add a proton you get helium. Nothing lost, but it is changed. As in, it is not the same thing anymore.

A second thing is, we don't know what God looks like. I can never tell you what he is but I can tell you that he exists in some form. Who knows? He could very well be the universe itself. Who am I to say what he is? And that is most likely why many people don't believe. Because they want some concrete answer.
If you don't believe, you don't believe. Maybe somewhere down the road, you will maybe you won't.


He will only be perceived by those who seek Him with all their heart...

[TheGame]

Because they want some concrete answer.

Exactly... everybody finds thier "concrete answer"s in different ways

As for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove.

Granted it can be proven in the short-term, but who is gonna sit there by an atom and see if it can handle the test of time... and if it was created someone could go back and see that it was, and prove it. (assuming some sort of time machine is created ;) :D) But nobody could prove that it was never created because you would be going so far back in time that... well, infintity steps in here. Infintity can't be proven, and for the most part things with a begining and an end can be.

Like I said in my earlier post, people believe what they chose to believe, and it's impossible to have an open mind here. I could sit here and say the sun will be here forever... and chances are unless it blacks out you will never be able to prove me wrong.

[The Duggler]

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.Ok fine, this is where our arguments take seperates ways. Because you consider life as something beyond just elements and I don't. I believe that we are just product of a mix of the existing matter.

Ad for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

[TheGame]

Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

You base your beliefs off of what "we" have discoverd to this point? *chuckles* Care to give some examples? ;)

As for jumping to conclusions... I think you may be the one jumping to them. How do you know for a fact that "explaining the inexplicable" is the 'reason' man believes in God? Have you ever taken into account that religious figureheads may be real people and *gasp* the book speaks of the truth about them?

None of us lived in that time, thus none of us can prove anything that happend at that time without reading into it... Correct? So when you say "I base my beliefs in what we know and discoverd to this point" who are you talking about when you say 'we'?

The fact is, there is no 'we' there is only you and yorself. You are chosing to believe what you read in a history book, and what you see on TV, but the fact is everything that you haven't lived with or experienced for yourself could be completly bogus.

Like in my last arguement, all the infinitys in life can't be proved... but you labeled it as "proven". There is no proof, that's just like me listing God as proven. Some say the universe goes out forever, but how do we know? Most of us haven't been off the planet, let alone outside of the solar system... how do you know it's not just one big scam? Simple, you don't until you see/do it for yourself.

Back to the point, you are chosing to believe in somthing that may or may not be true, just like any religious person on the planet. You have faith in history and science books, and you believe in infinity, somthing that defanently can't be proven.

So, I ask you again, what do you base your beliefs off of?

*taps foot*

Ok, I'll tell you... you base them off of what you want to believe, not what you know, just like everybody else. You will claim it's what you "know" just like a religious person will claim it's what they "know" but neither have anything to back themselves up except by personal experience. Infinity never has been, nor will ever be a proven concept because nobody can experience infintity.

You live your own life, and you believe what you want to believe... Science is just as bad and even worse than Religion when it comes to faith... and it has no moralities involved.

Some people will never read the bible (or any religious scripture) and accept it as truth, like they would read a history book or somthing of that nature and accept it. If you didn't see it for yourself, just like you didn't see the events in the bible for yourself, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because somthing is in the history book it doesn't automatically classify as true, same goes for anything anybody has said or claimed to have done that you haven't done for yourself or seen for yourself.

Maybe you can go to outer space one day and prove the world is round ;)

[nWoCHRISnWo]

*Enters THIS argument again.* I voted no god because I believe it's much more likely that we just haven't figured out what created us all than all the theories out there right now. How old is the bible supposed to be? Pretty damn old, no? Back then they though Earth was flat and was in the center of the universe. I highly doubt they'd be right about god.

[Crono]

I don't believe in God, but I also don't think people should take the bible literally. For many years, the events of that time were passed around by word of mouth. A lot of these stories could've changed drastically throughout time. Like Jesus healing someone just by touching them? I don't believe it, but I'm not denying that a man named Jesus did help people. My belief is that it wasn't instantly, but he helped them in other ways.

The same thing applies with the ten plagues and such. Did you know that these plagues can in fact be caused by nature? If I have time (probably tomorrow night), I'll dig up some links. The same thing can apply to other supernatural events listed in the bible, such as the parting of that sea. There's a volcano in a southern Greek island (which is also one of Earth's most destructive volcano), and after it's errupts, it creates fractures in the earth, which actually allowed the water in the sea to split temporarily.

So my belief is that... don't take old books literally. You don't know how much the stories have changed over 2000 years.

[Vampyr]

Good Lord. This brings back memories from the "Whats your Religon Thread".

Actually, I think its begun all over again.

[TheGame]

So my belief is that... don't take old books literally. You don't know how much the stories have changed over 2000 years.

I don't know how much anything has changed before my lifetime... same with you. You chose to trust some sources on what happend, and you chose not to trust some others... and you can't physically prove either to be true or not. Like my history Book example, how do you know for a fact that Wasington was our first president? You don't. You are basing it off of what other people say and not experiencing it for yourself. Thus basing it off of what other people believe and have written. Just because every person who you have ever met told you somthing is true, does that automatically make it true?

This goes for history and what we now accept as fact. The fact is you are chosing to deny god andyou are basing it off of things that are no more or less valid than the bible itself... You want to believe that you can't trust a 2000 year old book. There is nothing wrong with the book, it's you who are rejecting it.

[mickydaniels]

Back then they though Earth was flat and was in the center of the universe.

You really think so? (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html)

[TheGame]

Nice find

[Crono]

I don't know how much anything has changed before my lifetime... same with you. You chose to trust some sources on what happend, and you chose not to trust some others... and you can't physically prove either to be true or not. Like my history Book example, how do you know for a fact that Wasington was our first president? You don't. You are basing it off of what other people say and not experiencing it for yourself. Thus basing it off of what other people believe and have written. Just because every person who you have ever met told you somthing is true, does that automatically make it true?

This goes for history and what we now accept as fact. The fact is you are chosing to deny god andyou are basing it off of things that are no more or less valid than the bible itself... You want to believe that you can't trust a 2000 year old book. There is nothing wrong with the book, it's you who are rejecting it.

You're comparing something that is 200 years old to something that is 2000 years old.

They didn't even have paper or much to write on those days. Why do you think the gospels of Mathew, Luke, Mark, and John were written way after Jesus' death? None of the events in the Bible were recorded on the spot. That is a "Bible fact".

I think you may have missed my common point that I stated before. Stories get changed over time, especially without any way to record them. That's just why I, personally, find it hard to believe them. It's different when you're talking about Washington being the first president, because there were people there, at the time, who recorded those events. There weren't people following Jesus and writing down eveyrthing he did.

[mickydaniels]

They didn't even have paper or much to write on those days. Why do you think the gospels of Mathew, Luke, Mark, and John were written way after Jesus' death? None of the events in the Bible were recorded on the spot. That is a "Bible fact".

It's different when you're talking about Washington being the first president, because there were people there, at the time, who recorded those events. There weren't people following Jesus and writing down eveyrthing he did.

So what if the gospels were written after Jesus' death? Don't people write biographies of persons after they die? Is everyone's memory really that bad?
No paper to write on in those days? Why am I reading the Peloponnesian War, which was written more than 400 years before Christ?
Why does it say in the Old Testament that the King has to make his own copy of the law that was handed down from Moses?

[Xantar]

1. Whoever gave me -rep for this thread for the reason of "I believe in god" is an idiot. I didn't even state my views on the matter nor have I voted in the poll. True, my thoughts are well known if you just take a look through some previous posts, but then maybe you should have given me -rep for those threads.

Of course, it could always be the case that you just lowered my reputation because you were bored and felt like it. In that case, you're not an idiot. You're just a loser.

2.

Originally posted by Ranzid
A change of state?

That's what a Buddhist would say. :)

Why do we insist on saying that birth is the beginning of life and death is the end of life? It could be that we go to heaven or hell afterwards. Or it could be that we just change states.

[Crono]

So what if the gospels were written after Jesus' death? Don't people write biographies of persons after they die? Is everyone's memory really that bad?
No paper to write on in those days? Why am I reading the Peloponnesian War, which was written more than 400 years before Christ?
Why does it say in the Old Testament that the King has to make his own copy of the law that was handed down from Moses?

You don't get it. If someone wrote a biography of someone who died in the year 1960, it is completely different than the Bible. Example: we know Einstein encouraged the development of atomic weapons, there is the actual letter that he wrote to Rossevelt. We know he invented the E=mc^2 physics law, because there were people there, on first account, when he did it, and recorded it.

But when there's no way to record such events for a long period of time, the stories get changed. That is a human fact. Don't believe me? Why not listen to some of the gossip at your school, and tell me how close it is to the "real story". I've heard and seen so many situations where stories get completely turned upside down that I cam't even count them. They are perfect examples. Jesus may have healed someone, but some other guy probably said "YEAH! HE DID IT JUST BY TOUCING THEM OMG IT WAS SO AMAZING", but he probably wasnt there,, he just heard the story from someone else and changed it. Eventually, when things were written, the writers wrote from what they thought they knew, and what they heard. They had no real facts to prove that it happened.

They had other ways to write, such as on stone. And it was mostly people of high rank who had success to such things.

But anyway, it is pointless to argue because neither side has the right facts. I don't dislike religion, and I don't dislike those who follow it, I just don't believe it.

[mickydaniels]

You don't get it. If someone wrote a biography of someone who died in the year 1960, it is completely different than the Bible. Example: we know Einstein encouraged the development of atomic weapons, there is the actual letter that he wrote to Rossevelt. We know he invented the E=mc^2 physics law, because there were people there, on first account, when he did it, and recorded it.

But when there's no way to record such events for a long period of time, the stories get changed. That is a human fact. Don't believe me? Why not listen to some of the gossip at your school, and tell me how close it is to the "real story". I've heard and seen so many situations where stories get completely turned upside down that I cam't even count them. They are perfect examples. Jesus may have healed someone, but some other guy probably said "YEAH! HE DID IT JUST BY TOUCING THEM OMG IT WAS SO AMAZING", but he probably wasnt there,, he just heard the story from someone else and changed it. Eventually, when things were written, the writers wrote from what they thought they knew, and what they heard. They had no real facts to prove that it happened.

They had other ways to write, such as on stone. And it was mostly people of high rank who had success to such things.

But anyway, it is pointless to argue because neither side has the right facts. I don't dislike religion, and I don't dislike those who follow it, I just don't believe it.

The gospels were written by whoever they're named after. And they did witness the things he did because they were together nearly all of the time.

By the way,
Einstein was a fraud. :)

[Hero2]

Einstein was a fraud. :)

How dare you Einstein is a god...although you are part true...Einstein is my role model just because he is lasy and does want he wants and became famous for it.

[WiseMan]

Einstein should have never went back in time and made it possible for the Russians to take over.

[Crono]

Einstein should have never went back in time and made it possible for the Russians to take over.

He "should have never went back in time"? What are you talking about?

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Well that isn't my main argument of why I don't believe there's a god, mickeydaniels, I just threw it out there. And considering you can take anything out of the bible and take it out of context to mean whatever you want, I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the bible so don't bother.

The way I see it, there's absolutely NOTHING that provides evidence that there is a god, and until then I won't believe there is.

[Hero2]

lol command and conquer red alert 2

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

Well that isn't my main argument of why I don't believe there's a god, mickeydaniels, I just threw it out there. And considering you can take anything out of the bible and take it out of context to mean whatever you want, I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the bible so don't bother.

The way I see it, there's absolutely NOTHING that provides evidence that there is a god, and until then I won't believe there is.
exactly....those phrases could be used to explain numerous things in our past.... i personally think lines such as those were added centuries later, not only that, but the bible first written nor recorded in english, much of the true meanings of the proverbs are lost through translations, that is a fact, it happens today as well, for example take any famous german poet, take a poem, run it through a translator on the internet, and then compare it to what the poem means, it is more than likely the answers will be substantially different.

[The Duggler]

You base your beliefs off of what "we" have discoverd to this point? *chuckles* Care to give some examples? ;)

As for jumping to conclusions... I think you may be the one jumping to them. How do you know for a fact that "explaining the inexplicable" is the 'reason' man believes in God? Have you ever taken into account that religious figureheads may be real people and *gasp* the book speaks of the truth about them?

None of us lived in that time, thus none of us can prove anything that happend at that time without reading into it... Correct? So when you say "I base my beliefs in what we know and discoverd to this point" who are you talking about when you say 'we'?

The fact is, there is no 'we' there is only you and yorself. You are chosing to believe what you read in a history book, and what you see on TV, but the fact is everything that you haven't lived with or experienced for yourself could be completly bogus.

Like in my last arguement, all the infinitys in life can't be proved... but you labeled it as "proven". There is no proof, that's just like me listing God as proven. Some say the universe goes out forever, but how do we know? Most of us haven't been off the planet, let alone outside of the solar system... how do you know it's not just one big scam? Simple, you don't until you see/do it for yourself.

Back to the point, you are chosing to believe in somthing that may or may not be true, just like any religious person on the planet. You have faith in history and science books, and you believe in infinity, somthing that defanently can't be proven.

So, I ask you again, what do you base your beliefs off of?

*taps foot*

Ok, I'll tell you... you base them off of what you want to believe, not what you know, just like everybody else. You will claim it's what you "know" just like a religious person will claim it's what they "know" but neither have anything to back themselves up except by personal experience. Infinity never has been, nor will ever be a proven concept because nobody can experience infintity.

You live your own life, and you believe what you want to believe... Science is just as bad and even worse than Religion when it comes to faith... and it has no moralities involved.

Some people will never read the bible (or any religious scripture) and accept it as truth, like they would read a history book or somthing of that nature and accept it. If you didn't see it for yourself, just like you didn't see the events in the bible for yourself, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because somthing is in the history book it doesn't automatically classify as true, same goes for anything anybody has said or claimed to have done that you haven't done for yourself or seen for yourself.

Maybe you can go to outer space one day and prove the world is round ;) Ok I understand your point, but what you are saying in that post, is that we are both at the same point. We don't know nothing for sure, and I'm fine with that, but if you present me both choices, both theories (god or science) I choose science.

No we (I'm talking about the human race) haven't discovered everything, we might haven't discovered anything, like you said, but you can't deny the progress we have made. Like understanding how lightning is formed and therefore disprouving an old belief of a god trowing it from the sky.