State of Israel

[mickydaniels]

What do you think of it? Is it proof that they are still God's chosen people or are they just boiling with hate for Palestinians because they're Muslims?

:argue:

[jeepnut]

Ah yes, this topic always gets 'um fighting.

[mickydaniels]

Okay. Here's an interesting article about it. I don't necessarily agree with everything this guy thinks, but shutting people up because of their beliefs often leaves a voice out.



Israel and Palestine (http://www.davidduke.com/library/race/israel-zionism1.shtml)

[Professor S]

Okay. Here's an interesting article about it. I don't necessarily agree with everything this guy thinks, but shutting people up because of their beliefs often leaves a voice out.



Israel and Palestine (http://www.davidduke.com/library/race/israel-zionism1.shtml)

If you're going to post anything as reference material, please try and consider the source first. I do not consider ANYTHING on David Duke Online to be credible.

[mickydaniels]

Just because has an agenda you don't like doesn't mean he's not telling the truth. I often see statistics there.



Either way, no one's posting anything so, I might as well introduce somebody's idea.


And another thing: what is credible material? Is it because it doesn't have Uncle Sam or TV's stamp of approval?

[Professor S]

First I would try looking for a site was wasn't sponsored by a former Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan.

That should have been your first clue. :retard:

[Bond]

I would reply... but I can't stop laughing... I suppose this will be my reply.

[Kitana85]

They both feel God gave it to them... both are children of Abraham. They are fighting for what God wants for them... the Jews don't hate them because they are Muslims, they hate them because they feel they are on their land.

[GameMaster]

Everybody just wants to have a place they can call home. There is still room on Earth for each to have a home of their own, this is just a matter of stubborness.

[Ginkasa]

Everybody just wants to have a place they can call home. There is still room on Earth for each to have a home of their own, this is just a matter of stubborness.



This is more than a "I just don't want to what you tell me" type thing. These people believe that the land that they're fighting over was given to them by God. This is their land. That's why they're willing to fight and die and kill for it.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Crono]

Everybody just wants to have a place they can call home. There is still room on Earth for each to have a home of their own, this is just a matter of stubborness.

Actually if you haven't noticed yet the Earth is becoming very crowded. And you actually believe that because someone is on "your land", you have a valid reason to send your army and put 1000s out of their homes, killing people in the process?

[GameMaster]

This is more than a "I just don't want to what you tell me" type thing. These people believe that the land that they're fighting over was given to them by God. This is their land. That's why they're willing to fight and die and kill for it.


*shrugs and walks away*

If they were truly faithful to God, they would accept the fact that he created all the lands, not just that plot.

The only thing causing death here is a lack of faith and stubborn minds.

[Ginkasa]

No... You don't get it... Its not that they believe God made that land so its their's. They believe God actually gave it to them; said "here, this is your's. I am giving it to you."

While yes, I think everyone would be better off if they just got over it and stopped fighting, mere stubborness is not why they won't do so.


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

No... You don't get it... Its not that they believe God made that land so its their's. They believe God actually gave it to them; said "here, this is your's. I am giving it to you."

While yes, I think everyone would be better off if they just got over it and stopped fighting, mere stubborness is not why they won't do so.


*shrugs and walks away*

Well obviously the problem here is poor organization skills. Unless someone recorded the day this event occured and witnessed the situation for themselves, then that reason is invalid and cannot be used as testimony for ownership of the land. Case dismissed.

If someone punches me in the face, and I want to press charges, I'd better hope someone besides myself witnessed the beating or else that person didn't do a thing to me. I'm sorry, but unless people stop lying, that's the way our world must work. Case closed.

[Ginkasa]

.... Are you being serious or are you joking? The answer decides whether I think you were an idiot for posting that or not.


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

I'm serious, people can't use unwitnessed/unrecorded events as testimony for ownership of a piece of land.

[Professor S]

Often times peoplke wonder why Israel is so quick to use force...

Well lets see... 3000 years of persecution is a start, then they passively stood by while the holocaust happened hoping for the best, then they are given Israel and people have been trying to kill them ever since.

I'd be pretty trigger happy too.

[GameMaster]

Often times peoplke wonder why Israel is so quick to use force...

Well lets see... 3000 years of persecution is a start, then they passively stood by while the holocaust happened hoping for the best, then they are given Israel and people have been trying to kill them ever since.

I'd be pretty trigger happy too.

And who was granted authority to "give" land. I don't remember my parents voting for someone who would be responcible for giving and taking land from people.

[Ginkasa]

And who was granted authority to "give" land. I don't remember my parents voting for someone who would be responcible for giving and taking land from people.



GOD!!! They both have "records" saying that God gave their people that land. Its in their scripture.

They believe the land's their's like they believe God made the universe.


*shurgs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

Wouldn't fighting over the land with one another (whom both believe God granted them it) be defying God's word by trying to take the land from someone else who says God gave it to them. Both parties are at fault as far as I'm concerned and both have rallied up enough bad sin to send the whole human race to the underworld.

[Ginkasa]

Each side believes that God didn't really give the other the land of course. That's why they're fighting. Whoever finally wins and gets the land will have had God on their side and prove that they were the true recipitents to the land.


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

Each side believes that God didn't really give the other the land of course. That's why they're fighting. Whoever finally wins and gets the land will have had God on their side and prove that they were the true recipitents to the land.


*shrugs and walks away*

Call me an elephant if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that suggest that God advocates violence and is bias against certain cultures and races?

Who would want to believe in a God like that? :unsure:

[Ginkasa]

He is biased towards those that believe in Him of course. That's why those that believe in Him go to heaven and those that don't go down to hell.

Now, the Jews believe that that Israel is their Holy Land. Given to them to protect them from persecution, the exodus from Egypt and all that. Then they were kicked out and kept out and mass murdered and...

Jews have a hard time..

I'm not sure why the Palestinians believe its their Holy Land, just that they do...

Anyway...

I'm not saying I support what they're doing or believe that God would rather have them kill each other over the land, I'm just saying I know what they believe and what they're thinking.


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

If God truly cared for them, he would have given everyone an equal and identical piece of land.

But by giving two people the same piece of land, that sounds morelike a publicity stunt just to get more followers/attention.

As well, as giving some people more food than others. Is this the kind of person we want to admire? The kind of person we want to worship? Hmm...

[Professor S]

Call me an elephant if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that suggest that God advocates violence and is bias against certain cultures and races?

Who would want to believe in a God like that? :unsure:

Evidently those that follow Islam. Read the Koran, there are many references and passages advocating violence against infidels. Infidels are those who do not follow Islam, so that would be every other culture there is. If you like I will post them.

[Ginkasa]

Evidently those that follow Islam. Read the Koran, there are many references and passages advocating violence against infidels. Infidels are those who do not follow Islam, so that would be every other culture there is. If you like I will post them.


1. Its Quran I think. Qu'ran... Something like that.

2. That would not, normally, include Christians or Jews. They're caste system is set up like this (top = best bottom = worst)

"True" Muslims (those born into Islam)
"Reformed" Muslims (those who have changed into Muslims)
"People of the Book" (Christian and Jews)
"Other" (everyone else)

I think so anyway. I may be wrong... but I'm pretty sure I'm right.



*shrugs and walks away*

[GameKinG]

"Unless someone recorded the day this event occured and witnessed the situation for themselves, then that reason is invalid and cannot be used as testimony for ownership of the land. Case dismissed."

I beilieve the Jews use the old testamate as their ownership documentation when God gave them the land and took it from the philistines (palistinians). Now, If your not a bible/torah (or whatever it is) goer, thats fine. Try telling the jews thats not good enough. Im not sure about muslim stuff, Im sure they were told its theirs as well.

[Ace195]

I would reply... but I can't stop laughing... I suppose this will be my reply.


That reply alone is enough for me. :)

[mickydaniels]

Often times peoplke wonder why Israel is so quick to use force...

Well lets see... 3000 years of persecution is a start, then they passively stood by while the holocaust happened hoping for the best, then they are given Israel and people have been trying to kill them ever since.

I'd be pretty trigger happy too.
-------------------------------------------


Read the Koran, there are many references and passages advocating violence against infidels.




Persecution. Nobody hates someone else for no reason, you know. There's always a reason behind hatred.


Violence against infidels in the Koran. How about the Bible?
Deuteronomy 7:1-6

I haven't got time to spell it all out(classes are waiting), but it says the Jews(his chosen people) must utterly destroy the many nations around them and show no mercy. Break their altars, dash their pillars into pieces, and burn their images. If that's not violence against infidels, then I don't know what is.

[Professor S]

Persecution. Nobody hates someone else for no reason, you know. There's always a reason behind hatred.

Mickey, please keep your thinly... and I mean THINLY veiled anti-semitism off of these boards. I bet you're itching to tell me why the holocaust was justified.

Violence against infidels in the Koran. How about the Bible?
Deuteronomy 7:1-6

I haven't got time to spell it all out(classes are waiting), but it says the Jews(his chosen people) must utterly destroy the many nations around them and show no mercy. Break their altars, dash their pillars into pieces, and burn their images. If that's not violence against infidels, then I don't know what is.

If you are going to quote scripture, please QUOTE SCRIPTURE. I have no need of your version, especially from someone who thinks David Duke is a valid source of information.

[mickydaniels]

Anti-Semitism?
No. I'm not going to tell you why the Holocaust was justified because it wasn't. A man with an intense amount of hatred got into a position to do something about it. What I was reffering to was the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ.


Deuteronomy 7:1-6
When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land wither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, the Girga****e, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou, and when Jehovah thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them, thy daughter thou shalt not giveunto his son , nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn thy son away from following me, that they may serve many other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God has chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are on the face of the earth.

Yes, that seems to be very different from what I posted.
The point to be made here, which I guess you want a full explanation for is :


So what if the Qu'ran advocates violence against infidels? If you believe it you will do what God tells you to do. If he wants you to kill infidels, it's obviously in his plan, IF YOU BELIEVE AND WANT TO REMAIN IN GOD'S FAVOR. Now, if these Jews said, we can't do it, these people have lives and families to take care of, children to watch over, what would God say? He told you something now you go and do it. The same way they belived is the same way these Muslims believe. They have to carry it out the way they see it without compassion that God does not see compassion for especially since they see themselves as the living God's true life.

And yes, I do consider David Duke a credible source of info. First time I went to his site, I had never heard of him. I only heard of his actions afterwards.

I'm going to assume that you also think Malcolm X, another of my faves is Anti-Semitic, too?
What about Christians? Are they thinly veiled Anti-Semites? After all, each time Christ's death is mentioned it mentions that a certain people were responsible for his death.
John 19: 1-22
Luke chapter 23
Mark chapter 15
Matthew 26: 47 to 27:43


I just didn't want to write it all out because I assumed that a Bible would have been picked up and read for yourself.

[Professor S]

Anti-Semitism?
No. I'm not going to tell you why the Holocaust was justified because it wasn't. A man with an intense amount of hatred got into a position to do something about it. What I was reffering to was the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ.


Deuteronomy 7:1-6
When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land wither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, the Girga****e, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou, and when Jehovah thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them, thy daughter thou shalt not giveunto his son , nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn thy son away from following me, that they may serve many other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God has chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are on the face of the earth.

Yes, that seems to be very different from what I posted.
The point to be made here, which I guess you want a full explanation for is :


So what if the Qu'ran advocates violence against infidels? If you believe it you will do what God tells you to do. If he wants you to kill infidels, it's obviously in his plan, IF YOU BELIEVE AND WANT TO REMAIN IN GOD'S FAVOR. Now, if these Jews said, we can't do it, these people have lives and families to take care of, children to watch over, what would God say? He told you something now you go and do it. The same way they belived is the same way these Muslims believe. They have to carry it out the way they see it without compassion that God does not see compassion for especially since they see themselves as the living God's true life.

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did, so evidently does the Christian God. I wasn't making judgements, just stating facts.

And yes, I do consider David Duke a credible source of info. First time I went to his site, I had never heard of him. I only heard of his actions afterwards.

No comment needed.

I'm going to assume that you also think Malcolm X, another of my faves is Anti-Semitic, too?

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.

What about Christians? Are they thinly veiled Anti-Semites? After all, each time Christ's death is mentioned it mentions that a certain people were responsible for his death.
John 19: 1-22
Luke chapter 23
Mark chapter 15
Matthew 26: 47 to 27:43


Some Chritians are anti-semites. Some aren't. Its not uncommon, but that also does not make it forgiveable. I certaintly am not one to spout off about how Christians are infallable. They are not, but I can also see that Christianity has been far more of a boon to the world than a detriment. Meanwhile the strict tennants of the Koran and abuses of it by its followers have kept much of the Middle East mired in violence and poverty for many many years.

[mickydaniels]

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.





Here's a statement I believe accurately describes what he was about from 1965:

Whether you're educated or illiterate, whether you live on the boulevard or in the alley, you're going to catch hell just like I am. We're all in the same boat and we all are going to catch the same hell from the same man. He just happens to be a white man. All of us have suffered here, in this country, political oppression at the hands of the white man, and social degradation at the hands of the white man.
Now in speaking like this, it doesn't mean that we're anti-white, but it does mean we're anti-exploitation, we're anti-degradation, we're anti-oppression. And if the white man doesn't want us to be anti-him, let him stop oppressing us and exploiting and degrading us.

[Professor S]

Was that quote from before or after his pilgrimmage to Mecca? I know his views changed greatly after his pilgrimmage.

[mickydaniels]

It's actually from 1964, the same year he went to Mecca. Before or after I don't know. 1965 is the year this was printed. Doesn't really matter because he was still against oppression, he just accepted the fact that maybe blacks couldn't do it all on their own.

[Professor S]

Well thw whole idea of gaining acceptance through isolationist views is pretty silly. I liked his views after his trip to Mecca, but before he was more than a little suspect.

[mickydaniels]

More than a little suspect? Please explain.


And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

[Rick_Blaze]

Israel kills Palestinians and it means nothing. Palestinians retaliate and they're so evil. They don't want suicide bombs just give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and dismantle every single settlement in the west bank. If black people in this country waited for white terrorists in the south to stop violence, then they're might still have been segregation in this country. There are about 3.8 million Palestinian refugees. 3.8 that have been kicked out of their country and still can't return.

[Professor S]

Israel kills Palestinians and it means nothing. Palestinians retaliate and they're so evil. They don't want suicide bombs just give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and dismantle every single settlement in the west bank. If black people in this country waited for white terrorists in the south to stop violence, then they're might still have been segregation in this country. There are about 3.8 million Palestinian refugees. 3.8 that have been kicked out of their country and still can't return.

There are so many things wrong with your atatements I don't know where to begin.

Israel - You kind of have it reversed. The violence did not start from Israel, but they sure do know how to finish it. Israel even gave land back, and Palestinians used it to further their terrorist attacks. We are going to have to face the truth that those that are extreme enough to be suicide bombers do not want a compromise. They want all of Israel, and Israel ain't going anywhere. The end result? The violence will continue and there will be no end.

Also, Palestine isn't even a country. It never has been.

Civil Rights - Yes, black leaders had a lot to do with the revolution that too place in the 60's, but do you really think anything would have happened if sympathetic and influential white people hadn't helped? Nope. Plus there were many black people back then and even today who are fans of "separate but equal".

The world isn't as black and white as some would like to believe. Israel isn't evil and Palestinians aren't good, or vice versa. There are many shades of gray in between that confuse the issue until you realize that there is no simple solution to this, and there might never be.

[Professor S]

More than a little suspect? Please explain.

Your the fan of Malcolm X, you should know. Before he went on his trip to Mecca his views were far more extreme and violent, and many would even say racist. That I consider suspect.

And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

It comes down to safety. The Palestinians that they have allowed to live in their country are at best hostile and at worst actively participating in terrorism. We in America become outraged when ONE TERRORIST ACT is perpetrated on us. Imagine being Israeli and living with it on a daily basis.

And why is there even a comparison? Israel attacks specific targets while Palestinian terrorists blow up cars in busy streets filled with innocents. There is no comparison.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

Many of the Jews who were in Israel at the time of Patriation were already there. Patriation began back during WWI and there were large Jewish populations before then. Many more came after the war, its true, but basically the UN drew lines that already existed. Its not like the UN just said "ok, everybody out, you Jews step right in."

[Shadow_Link]

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not. (http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm)

[Professor S]

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not. (http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm)

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

[Shadow_Link]

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

[Professor S]

"You may strike terror into the enemies of God and the faithful, and others besides them. I shall cast terror into the hearts of infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Make war on them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorders in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country."

"Be ruthless to unbelievers but merciful to one another."

"Blessed are the believers who restrain their carnal desires except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them."

This nice little passage both endorses slavery and the rape of those that are enslaved. I can see where Hussein felt justified in building his rape camps.

The Roman numerals are the SURAs of the Koran, similar to the books of the Bible.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.

Is this enough for you? Listen, I'm not here saying that Christianity is real or thet Islam is fake, I'm here to point something out. This is: DON'T FOLLOW RELIGIOUS TEXTS WORD FOR WORD. THEY ARE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD AND THEIR LITERAL TRANSLATIONS DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD IN MODERN SOCIETY.

There are many teachings in the Qu'ran (did I get it right that time?) that are loving and peaceful, just like the Bible, but unfotunately threre are many passages like these also. To take them literally is a mistake.

Christianity is a case in point. Christianity started as a very warm religion that used the bible as a book of stories to live by. The most modern form of this is Russian Orthodoxy. Its when those who sought power used religion as a means to attain it when all of this oppression and violence started. But at the same time you can't just add stuff. When Dogma becomes more meaningful than the Word, there is a problem. Case in point: The Pope. No offense Catholics, but he is your creation and was used as a monarch figure to combat the loyalty of the masses to their feudal lords.

Unfortunately it seems that the Qu'ran teaches a direct translation as its norm. This is a shame. Because if one believes that their interpretation is the true and only interpretation, they can pretty much justify any heinous act they wish with the quotes I listed above.

Outr of every quote I've seen, this is the most disturbing:

"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. At most there is a difference of degree but not of kind."

-- Ibn Warraq, executive director of the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society

[Professor S]

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

And I also remember pointing out that having different morals for "war" and "peace" are highly subjective, contradictory and have been ABUSED to an incredible extent.

See, the Qu'ran teaches that it is meant to be taken in only one way. The true way. The problem is that everyones way is the "true" way to them. To Bin Laden, those like you are not good Muslim's or whatever sect you are. And I'm sure Bin Laden thinks you do not follow true Islam. As long as this persists there will continue to be massive amounts of violence.

[Bond]

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not. (http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm)
Thetruereligion.org? Give me a break...

Anything can be interpreted as being violent. Just as anything can be skewed to support your own viewpoint. Examples:

KKK (Christianity)

al Qaeda (Islam)

By the way, are you ever going to answer my questions on Islam Shadow Link?

[Shadow_Link]

Thetruereligion.org? Give me a break...

Ugh... Give ME a break, you're not gonna read the link JUST because of the name of the site? It's difficult to convey a point with such people. It just explains how people skew the truth in the Qur'an. Or justr ead my previous post. These quotes people come up with are usually seperated from the rest of the surah (chapter)/other verses before and after. I'm not going to explain it again.

As for your qustion...

Women's Liberation In Islam

Today people think that women are liberated in the West and that thewomen's liberation movement began in the 20th century. Actually, thewomen's liberation movement was not begun by women but was revealed by Godto a man in the seventh century by the name of Muhammad (peace be uponhim), who is known as the last Prophet of Islam. The Qur'an and theTraditions of the Prophet (Hadith or Sunnah) are the sources from whichevery Muslim woman derives her rights and duties.

I. HUMAN RIGHTS

Islam, fourteen centuries ago, made women equally accountable to God inglorifying and worshipping Him - setting no limits on her moral progress. Also, Islam established a woman's equality in her humanity with men.

In the Qur'an, in the first verse of the chapter entitled "Women," Godsays, "O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created youfrom a single soul and from it its mate and from them both have spreadabroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allahin Whom you claim (your rights) of one another, and towards the wombs (that bore you). Lo! Allah has been a Watcher over you." (4:1)

Since men and women both came from the same essence, they are equal in their humanity. Women cannot be by nature evil (as some religious believe) or then men would be evil also. Similarly, neither gender can be superior because it would be a contradiction of equality.

II. CIVIL RIGHTS

In Islam, a woman has the basic freedom of choice and expression based on recognition of her individual personality. First, she is free to choose her religion. The Qur'an states: "There is no compulsion in religion. Right has been made distinct from error." (2:256)

Women are encouraged in Islam to contribute their opinions and ideas. There are many traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) which indicate women would pose questions directly to him and offer their opinions concerning religion, economics and social matters.

A Muslim woman chooses her husband and keeps her name after marriage. A Muslim woman's testimony is valid in legal disputes. In fact, in areas in which women are more familiar, their evidence is conclusive.

III. SOCIAL RIGHTS

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Seeking knowledge is a mandate for every Muslim (male and female)." This includes knowledge of the Qur'an and the Hadith as well as other knowledge. Men and women both have the capacity for learning and understanding. Since it is also their obligation to promote good behavior and condemn bad behavior in all spheres of life, Muslim women must acquire the appropriate education to perform this duty in accordance with their own natural talents and interests.

While maintenance of a home, providing support to her husband, and bearing, raising and teaching of children are among the first and very highly regarded roles for a woman, if she has the skills to work outside the home for the good of the community, she may do so as long as her family obligations are met.

Islam recognizes and fosters the natural differences between men and women despite their equality. Some types of work are more suitable for men and other types for women. This in no way diminishes either's effort nor its benefit. God will reward both sexes equally for the value of their work, though it may not necessarily be the same activity.

Concerning motherhood, the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Heaven lies under the feet of mothers." This implies that the success of a society can be traced to the mothers that raised it. The first and greatest influence on a person comes from the sense of security, affection, and training received from the mother. Therefore, a woman having children must be educated and conscientious in order to be a skillful parent.

IV. POLITICAL RIGHTS

A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad (pbuh) is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government. Abdur-Rahman Ibn Auf consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.

V. ECONOMIC RIGHTS

The Qur'an states: "By the creation of the male and female; Verily, (the ends) ye strive for are diverse." (92:3-4)

In these verses, God declares that He created men and women to be different, with unique roles, functions and skills. As in society, where there is a division of labor, so too in a family; each member has different responsibilities. Generally, Islam upholds that women are entrusted with the nurturing role, and men, with the guardian role. Therefore, women are given the right of financial support.

The Qur'an states: "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend of their wealth (for the support of women)." (4:34)

This guardianship and greater financial responsibility is given to men, requires that they provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment.

The Muslim woman has the privilege to earn money, the right to own property, to enter into legal contracts and to manage all of her assets in any way she pleases. She can run her own business and no one has any claim on her earnings including her husband. The Qur'an states:

"And in no wise covet those things in which Allah hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others; to men is allotted what they earn, and to women, what they earn; but ask Allah of His bounty, for Allah hath full knowledge of all things." (4:32)

A woman inherits from her relatives. The Qur'an states: "For men there is a share in what parents and relatives leave, and for women there is a share of what parents and relatives leave, whether it be little or much - an ordained share." (4:7)

VI. RIGHTS OF A WIFE

The Qur'an states: "And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may live in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between you; Verily, in that are signs for people who reflect." (30:21)

Marriage is therefore not just a physical or emotional necessity, but in fact, a sign from God! It is a relationship of mutual rights and obligations based on divine guidance. God created men and women with complimentary natures, and in the Qur'an, He laid out a system of laws to support harmonious interaction between the sexes.

"...They are your garments and you are their garments." (2:187)

Clothing provides physical protection and covers the beauty and faults of the body. Likewise, a spouse is viewed this way. Each protects the other and hides the faults and compliments the characteristics of the spouse.

To foster the love and security that comes with marriage, Muslim wives have various rights. The first of the wife's rights is to receive mahr, a gift from the husband which is part of the marriage contract and required for the legality of the marriage.

The second right of a wife is maintenance. Despite any wealth she may have, her husband is obligated to provide her with food, shelter and clothing. He is not forced, however, to spend beyond his capability and his wife is not entitled to make unreasonable demands. The Qur'an states: "Let the man of means spend according to his means, and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what Allah has given him. Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him." (65:7)


God tells us men are guardians over women and are afforded the leadership in the family. His responsibility for obeying God extends to guiding his family to obey God at all times.

A wife's rights also extend beyond material needs. She has the right to kind treatment. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect believers are the best in conduct. And the best of you are those who are best to their wives." God tells us He created mates and put love, mercy, and tranquillity between them.

Both men and women have a need for companionship and sexual needs, and marriage is designed to fulfill those needs. For one spouse to deny this satisfaction to the other, temptation exists to seek it elsewhere.

VIII. CONCLUSION

The Muslim woman was given a role, duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy today, even in the West. These are from God and are designed to keep balance in society; what may seem unjust or missing in one place is compensated for or explained in another place. Islam is a complete way of life.

[Shadow_Link]

Distorted Image of Women


Since the height of the feminist movement in the late 70's there has been a magnifying glass placed over the status of Muslim women. Unfortunately, the magnifying glass that has been used is an unusual one. Unusual in the sense that it is very selective about which items it will magnify; other items it will distort to such a degree that they will no longer look familiar. I remember once reading in an "in depth" article about the lives of Muslim women. This article "explained" that at any time a man can divorce his wife by simply stating "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you". This article can lead anyone ignorant of the Islamic ruling regarding divorce to believe that in less than five seconds the woman is left with no husband and is left to care for herself (and possibly children) by any means necessary. The question that immediately popped up in my mind was, "Did the author innocently write that out of sincere ignorance or was it another of the many attempts to degrade the religion of Islam and its followers (muslims)?" It may be my own paranoia, but I tend to believe it was the latter of the two.

The truth of the matter is that Islam has the most humane and most just system of divorce that exists. Firstly, many options are taken and tried before coming to the decision of the divorce. If the man and woman decide that they can no longer live together successfully as a husband and wife, the husband (in most cases, not always) pronounces the divorce by saying "I divorce you". At this point the waiting period begins. The waiting period lasts for three menstrual cycles to assure the woman is not pregnant. This period allows the couple time to think about what they are doing and if this is what they really want to do. There are no lawyers involved to antagonise an already delicate situation.
In the case that it is realised, that the woman is pregnant, the waiting period lasts the entire time she is pregnant. During the waiting period (whether the woman is pregnant or not) the man is obligated to provide food, clothing and shelter to the woman as he did before the divorce pronouncement. If the couple carries the divorce through to the birth of the child and the woman suckles the baby, the man is obligated to feed and clothe both his ex-wife for the time the woman suckles (the maximum being two years). After this weaning, the child will be provided for by the father until he/she is no longer in need of support.

It is quite ironic that in such an "advanced society" as America, there are divorce cases in which women are being forced to pay alimony to their ex-husbands. Can this and many other things we know about the American system of divorce compare to the Islamic system of divorce?

I have also read stories wherein it is stated that women are forced to marry men without their consent. This in no way resembles the marriage system in Islam. In Islaam the woman marries the man of her choice. She may even marry someone that her mother and/or father objects to. The point is that it is the woman who makes the final decision as to whom she will marry. Once the man and the woman decide that they are interested in one another for marriage, a dowry is decided upon. A dowry is not a brides price but, it is a gift from the groom to the bride. They agree upon a gift that is affordable by the groom. In the time of the Prophet (sas), often things such as livestock and money were given. This is a wise decision in the event that a woman becomes divorced or widowed, she has some financial security to fall back on even if it is for a limited amount of time. Once the man and woman are married, the man is required to clothe, feed, shelter and educate her (or allow her to be educated) in the same manner as he does himself.

The last distorted image that I will cover is that of the Muslim women's dress. The western influenced media portrays our dress to be outdated and oppressive. Needless to say however, I differ with these adjectives. Our dress code does not hinder us from doing anything productive in our lives. Muslim women maintain a variety of jobs, non of which are devalued nor hampered due to their dress code. And as for the timing of muslims women's dress during these contemporary times, it seems most appropriate due to decreasing morals in the world today.

For those who say that Islamic dress is outdated, they speak from great ignorance. The decreasing morality and trials of this time makes Hijaab even more in need. More than ever before sex crimes are rampant. Although this society tells women they can wear what they want to wear, anytime a rape occurs the woman is the one put on trial an one of the first questions is, "What were you wearing?" This concept seems as though it is a set up directed against the so called contemporary woman. Also there is a direct correlation between the respect a man has for a woman and the amount of her body her body she displays flauntingly.
In conclusion, I hope this article helped to clear up some distorted/misunderstood aspects of Islam and women. Women in Islam are respected and held in high regard. We will never find success and/or solutions to our problems until we realise that Allaah knows best and that this disbelieving society will ruin itself.

[Bond]

I see, I see... pretty interesting.

But you would agree the current "Islamic states" (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq [not anymore]) are fairly opressive towards women? Hopefully Iran will turn into a democracy soon, it's probably just a matter of time now.

[Professor S]

Could you also please reply to my last 2 posts? I think they directly correlate with your posts in using literal interpretations and applications of the Qu'ran.

[mickydaniels]

1. The violence did not start from Israel.
--- Really? They came in, declared their homeland where people were already living, and they were just supposed to sit back and let it happen? I have never heard of that pacifism anywhere at any time.

2. The violence will continue and there will be no end.
--- That's obvious. That's what you get when you get 2 stubborn groups and they both have 'divine favor' on their side.

3. Israel attacks specific targets while Palestinian terrorists blow up cars in streets filled with innocents. There is no comparison.
--- A life lost is a life lost. Plus, there have been numerous UN resolutions against Israel for fighting dirty. When you believe you will be delivered, there is no need to play by any rules.



As for racism with Malcolm X, if things aren't working, a new vision is needed. He simply provided new ideas. I mean, when the Constition makes you an equal citizen by 1870, shouldn't you be treated like one then and there? And even if it takes some time, should it take nearly 100 years so that it at least looks like it?

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

i may be wrong but 90% of all the for and against arguments are based on religion. Strangler is completely right when he stated that religion does much more harm than good in cases like these. Its one world, and scriptures from a thousand years ago is not gonna help today. i personally believe that both sides are victims of hate and prejudice. And i HATE people who say that ALL Jews are retards and violent people, or ALL Palastinians smell bad and will do anything to corrupt the world. The truth is that there are good people and assholes on each side, and each one can justify their actions in their own rights. Just how Hitler, although everyone hates him for his crimes, in his mind he was doing what he saw as best for his country. I by no means am justifying his attempts at genocide and various other crimes but try to encourage to see this war from the other point of view rather than just hate them for not agreeing with you.

[Professor S]

i may be wrong but 90% of all the for and against arguments are based on religion. Strangler is completely right when he stated that religion does much more harm than good in cases like these. Its one world, and scriptures from a thousand years ago is not gonna help today. i personally believe that both sides are victims of hate and prejudice. And i HATE people who say that ALL Jews are retards and violent people, or ALL Palastinians smell bad and will do anything to corrupt the world. The truth is that there are good people and assholes on each side, and each one can justify their actions in their own rights. Just how Hitler, although everyone hates him for his crimes, in his mind he was doing what he saw as best for his country. I by no means am justifying his attempts at genocide and various other crimes but try to encourage to see this war from the other point of view rather than just hate them for not agreeing with you.

At the same time don't use a blanket excuse such as "religion" as a reason for violence and hate. Religion is not the root issue. Perversion of the religion by putting literal text before meaning is the issue.

As long as religions continue to carve up religious texts and quote excerpts to promote their own agendas, while ignoring the overall theme of the work, there will always be evil acts in the name of Religion. Islamic terrorists are a perfect example of this.