Your Religion!

[TheSlyMoogle]

Wow! So this is like a dream. I love to argue! One thing that pushes more people's buttons in this life is religion.

So I belonged to a forum a long time ago and this same topic stirred a butt-load of users to post their opinions. More users posted to a thread like this. So here we go!

What's your religion? Why do you practice it?

My religion is none! I'm an Aetheist. I believe that religion is just a manifestation of human insecurities. *pushes buttons*

I think that religion causes too many problems. And to this day I don't understand why christians try to spread their religion! Christianity is like a plague! You don't see Taoist people going around saying "Become a taoist or you're screwed!"

And so it has begun, maybe.

[Ginkasa]

I'm a Christian.

Just because.


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

I'm a Christian.

We Chritians are just looking out for the well being of our fellow humans, we don't want to threaten, we just want to purify the world so that all is good and happy.

WWJD 4 LIFE.

[jeepnut]

I'm Roman Catholic.

Christians spreading their religion has a lot to do with the belief that the only way to salvation is through Christ. Through this belief comes the effort to spread Christianity in order to maximize the number of people who are saved.

That and if we convert enough people, we get a free toaster oven! :burger:

j/k

In other news, I am Roman Catholic right now mainly because it was the way I was brought up. I am currently in the position of questioning my faith. While I am still a practicing Catholic and I do attend church every Sunday, I am going through the process of discovering why i believe what I do and how I can make my faith more a part of my being instead of just something I do.

[Dylflon]

WOW!!!

Let the flame fest commence.

I'm sort of christian. Except I don't go to church and i'm not so uptight.

I do agree that religion causes too many problems. So many wars.

[ominub]

religion? wait i dont have one

[jeepnut]

So far, no one is fighting. Interesting...

[GameMaster]

So far, no one is fighting. Interesting...

I can fix that.

All religions are based off Christianity. The only reason there are other religions is because certain people wanted more than just salvation and peace, they wanted glory, and so they took all the principles and basic beliefs of Christianity, altered names and events, and made up a new name for their self promoting religion.

[jeepnut]

Uh, interesting...

[GameMaster]

And true.

[TheGame]

lol... I'm a Christain, like GameMaster... ;)

[Dyne]

<-----------WASP

:p

Suck it down, bitches! I'm also the official Organist's son most of the time.

Yeah, I'm sort of a mix of Protestant and United Christianity. What's United? A lot less formal version of Protestant.. And you thought Catholics were formal! :p

United's basically a community-driven church that was derived in Canada, though I think it branches out.

I was brought up Protestant back when I lived in Ontario, with Sunday School and all, but when we moved here, my mom couldn't find a job as an organist at any Protestant church around here.. My mom was raised in a German Protestant church, and my father was brought up in the praries in the new-at-the-time United Church in the praries. So, here we took up United and my mom was a church organist for a really long time, and I went to a lot of Sunday School.. but some personal events shattered our Church-going recently and I haven't gone back since. But, I have a full Sunday School education; that's all I need :p

[Vampyr]

All religions are based off Christianity. The only reason there are other religions is because certain people wanted more than just salvation and peace, they wanted glory, and so they took all the principles and basic beliefs of Christianity, altered names and events, and made up a new name for their self promoting religion.

Uh, yeah, that is interesting, and I totally disagree with it. Do you know what the two oldest religons in the world are? The number one oldest religon is Judaism, the second is Hinduism. If you compare the two, they are completely different. For one thing, Hinduism is Polytheistic, and Judaism is Monotheistic. In Hinduism you have the trinity, which is The Creator (Brahma), The Preserver (Vishnu), and The Destroyer (Shiva). And then you have minor gods that control all aspects of nature, for example, Genesha is the Hindu god of wisdom and good fortune, and it has the head of an elephant. In Judaism, you have one almighty, and he is God, I believe the Hebrew pronunciation is Jawei.

In Hinduism you dont even have a heaven. In Hinduism each follower is trying to reach "Nirvana". Nirvana is not heaven, folks, Nirvana is a state of not existing. The sole purpose of Hinduist is to live a perfect life, in which they will not want any wordly goods and do good deeds, and if they are successful, they will pass to a state of not existing, and be able to exit the cycle of birth and rebirth, and be part of the Brahma. And if they fail? They will die and be reborn in another body, human or animal. After you have lived a good life, you will pass onto a higher form, the highest being a Priest, the lowest being insects and worms. In Judaism, you have one chance, and thats it, you either do it right and go to Heaven (Salvation) or you do it wrong and your damned to Hell (Damnation).

These religons are so different that its not even funny how incorrect you are. Now, if your talking about Judaism, Islam, and Chirstianity, than you are slighty more correct. Each of these religons is derived from the God of Abraham. They have few but important differences, but they are in no way derived from Chirstianity. How can they be? Judaism was first, how can the first religon be derived from Christianity, if Christianity didnt exist at the time?

My religion is none! I'm an Aetheist. I believe that religion is just a manifestation of human insecurities. *pushes buttons*

I think that religion causes too many problems. And to this day I don't understand why christians try to spread their religion! Christianity is like a plague! You don't see Taoist people going around saying "Become a taoist or you're screwed!"


I dont understand why anyone would be Aetheist. If you would pick a religon, read its religous teachings, have faith and believe in the mercy of its God, then when you die, you have a chance. You have a chance for something better. If you were wrong, and the religon was a much of lies and crap, than what happens? You lay in the ground and rot. With the path you have chosen, thats all you have. Thats the only thing you have to look forward too, you dont even have a chance.

[ominub]

I dont understand why anyone would be Aetheist. If you would pick a religon, read its religous teachings, have faith and believe in the mercy of its God, then when you die, you have a chance. You have a chance for something better. If you were wrong, and the religon was a much of lies and crap, than what happens? You lay in the ground and rot. With the path you have chosen, thats all you have. Thats the only thing you have to look forward too, you dont even have a chance.

hey whats going to happen to you when you die? i dont see you going anywhere do you want to know where you are going to be on the ground rotting just like you said.
dont even try to convert us aetheist down to your level we dont want that leave us alone

[Bond]

I can fix that.

All religions are based off Christianity. The only reason there are other religions is because certain people wanted more than just salvation and peace, they wanted glory, and so they took all the principles and basic beliefs of Christianity, altered names and events, and made up a new name for their self promoting religion.
pa·gan

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

You might want to look that up.

I will post more indepth when I have the time.

[Kitana85]

I'm a Christian, I was raised Jewish, until the Lord came to me and changed my life. I am now a Christian, as I said before. The denimination I presently practice is Episcoplian, as I find the "high churchness" of it brings me closer to God, and shows some of the best we can give, in terms of worship. Indeed, my personal relationship with God is that which makes me unseceptable to athiest banter. And while I, personally, don't believe you are going to hell, I do think your life would be more fulfilled if you let God into your hearts.
I'm not trying to convert anyone... and I think this is not the place for anyone to attemp that.

[mickydaniels]

I'm a Christian, I was raised Jewish, until the Lord came to me and changed my life.



Only one question. Is acknowledging Christ as the Messiah the only difference?

[The Duggler]

I would say that I'm Atheist, but I don't deny completely that there is maybe something out there. But it's certainly not what traditional religions think it is... I'm pretty sure there is no greater power, but there is so many unanswered questions that we can't deny that possibility.

Posted by Vampyr:

I dont understand why anyone would be Aetheist. If you would pick a religon, read its religous teachings, have faith and believe in the mercy of its God, then when you die, you have a chance. You have a chance for something better. If you were wrong, and the religon was a much of lies and crap, than what happens? You lay in the ground and rot. With the path you have chosen, thats all you have. Thats the only thing you have to look forward too, you dont even have a chance.Because we don't need guidelines in order to be good individuals in life? Because we can accept death and the fact that there's nothing after? And if there's really an afterlife, are you telling me that because I didn't follow any of those organised religions, even though I have been a good man all my life, that I won't be allowed to that place you call heaven?

Posted by Kitana85:

I'm a Christian, I was raised Jewish, until the Lord came to me and changed my life. And may I ask you how it happened? How the lord changed your life?

[jeepnut]

hey whats going to happen to you when you die? i dont see you going anywhere do you want to know where you are going to be on the ground rotting just like you said.
dont even try to convert us aetheist down to your level we dont want that leave us alone

Holy run-on sentences Batman!

And if there's really an afterlife, are you telling me that because I didn't follow any of those organised religions, even though I have been a good man all my life, that I won't be allowed to that place you call heaven?

It depends on which denomination of Christianity or other religions you ask. Some teach that theirs is the only way. Others, like Catholicism, teach that it is possible for someone to reach heaven regardless of their faith if they lead a Christ-like life.

[The Duggler]

It depends on which denomination of Christianity or other religions you ask. Some teach that theirs is the only way. Others, like Catholicism, teach that it is possible for someone to reach heaven regardless of their faith if they lead a Christ-like life. What about atheist? Like me, ignoring every single form of organised religion, but leading a life by trying to be a good person as much as possible.

[mickydaniels]

What about atheist? Like me, ignoring every single form of organised religion, but leading a life by trying to be a good person as much as possible.



So then, you're not an atheist. You're an agnostic.

ag*nos*tic

1.
a. One who believes it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

[Kitana85]

Only one question. Is acknowledging Christ as the Messiah the only difference?


Sort of.. there are Messianic (sp?) Jews, also known as Jews for Jesus, but they're kinda confusing (or confused). The entire new testiment in not considered by Jews, and there is a lot of Jewish doctirine that Xtians no longer accept as relevant. Christians also do not acklowlege the talmud, which contains much Jewish law. Church history also defines much of what the Xtian church currently believes.

I could write more but I have to cram for a latin qizz can you believe we have a quiz already.. we've only had a few days of classes).

[Xantar]

I dont understand why anyone would be Aetheist. If you would pick a religon, read its religous teachings, have faith and believe in the mercy of its God, then when you die, you have a chance. You have a chance for something better. If you were wrong, and the religon was a much of lies and crap, than what happens? You lay in the ground and rot. With the path you have chosen, thats all you have. Thats the only thing you have to look forward too, you dont even have a chance.

Ah yes, Pascal's Wager. The problem with it is choosing which religion to believe in. Why exactly is it that picking a religion equates to having "faith and believe in the mercy of its God?" Not all religions have a God that's supposed to be merciful. In fact, not all religions have a God.

Besides, you can't exactly just wake up in the morning and say, "Hey, I should be religious so I have a chance for something better. I didn't believe in God before, but I'm going to start believing now."

So then, you're not an atheist. You're an agnostic.


I don't get it. I don't see anything in your definition of the word "agnostic" that says an agnostic is someone who, among other things, tries to be a good person as much as possible. Are you saying that if someone is atheist, he can't possibly be making every effort to be good?

With all due respect, I think that's absurd.

I'd say more, but I'm really not sure you've thought through exactly what you're trying to say. If you could clarify more, I'd be happy to discuss my point of view.

By the way, I'm a Buddhist, and I'm also Atheist in the sense that I don't think there is a God. The two are not incompatible.

[ominub]

Holy run-on sentences Batman!

im a run on sentence type of person.

[jeepnut]

So then, you're not an atheist. You're an agnostic.


I'm not sure about this but I don't think that being an atheist means you can't be a good person as Xantar said. It's perfectly logical that you can not believe in God and yet still believe in being moral and living a "good" life.

What about atheist? Like me, ignoring every single form of organised religion, but leading a life by trying to be a good person as much as possible.

Sure. We believe that God, can save whoever he wants. Who are we to say who will and will not get into heaven? Only God can make that decision. Therefore, we believe that God may save anyone he deems worthy whether they believe in him or not. Heck, I'm sure there are many Atheists out there that are a lot better people than many Christians I know, including myself.

Besides, say there is someone who has lived a life of service to others. They do everything that a Christian is supposed to do. However, they lived in a very remote area. No one ever got to them in their life to teach them about Christ. How can we say they won't get saved simply because no one told them about Jesus? I mean, maybe they won't be, but that's up to God. Meanwhile, I'm not going to rule out the possibility.

[mickydaniels]

I would say that I'm Atheist, but I don't deny completely that there is maybe something out there. But it's certainly not what traditional religions think it is... I'm pretty sure there is no greater power, but there is so many unanswered questions that we can't deny that possibility.





This is what I actually was referring to, since I guess many just read the last post.

Heck, I'm sure there are many Atheists out there that are a lot better people than many Christians I know, including myself.


I already know that, and to me it's almost a shame. I don't actually see the Bible as the way a religion should be, but instead the instruction manual for life. Like the numerous times he would be angry at his own chosen people the Jews, who did all the sacrifices and festivals, but were not leading moral lives.

I once heard that it is more moral to do something because it is right instead of because someone stronger than you told you to do so.

[TheGame]

Because we don't need guidelines in order to be good individuals in life? Because we can accept death and the fact that there's nothing after? And if there's really an afterlife, are you telling me that because I didn't follow any of those organised religions, even though I have been a good man all my life, that I won't be allowed to that place you call heaven?

[keep in mind this is from my belief's point of view, if you have conflicting views I'm not trying to argue, I'm just informing Ranzid about what will happen to him according to my beliefs]

Sorry my friend... but no you wouldn't. Why? Because no man is perfect, and everybody sins... and in order to get in heaven you must be forgiven for your sins and dedicate your life to Christ. Does God make exceptions? As far as I know, he doesn't. But he set the requirements, so eh.

It's not my job to say you are going to hell, because it's not my choice, but based off of what I know it would seem very likely that you would.

Also, you said "Because we can accept death and the fact that there's nothing after?"

I didn't know that was a fact... have you died before or somthing?

[TheGame]

Besides, say there is someone who has lived a life of service to others. They do everything that a Christian is supposed to do. However, they lived in a very remote area. No one ever got to them in their life to teach them about Christ. How can we say they won't get saved simply because no one told them about Jesus? I mean, maybe they won't be, but that's up to God. Meanwhile, I'm not going to rule out the possibility.

well... I find that reasonable to... but people who hear it and flatly deny it... AND go out and argue against it are the people who are in the most trouble imo. SOme people just have no excuse except that they simply refuse to believe. Some people are so bad that even if events in the bible start happening they would still rather look for another explanation rather than submit and believe. These are the people I have extreme doubt about going to heaven.

[mickydaniels]

Oooooooohhhhhhhh......


Let's open up a can of worms.


Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists teach that death is the end and there is no judgement until God resurrects all the dead in the history of the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of the beasts is the same; as one dies, so does the other.They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the sprit of the beast goes down to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
I'm sure that they're not the only ones.

[TheGame]

After you die there is no concept of time... the way I see it you are just KOed when you die. But because heaven is forever, waiting a million years would be just like waiting a second if there is no end. Right?

I may be wrong, I haven't read anything to conflict with it, but I think the second you die in your eyes everything will be done almost instantly... it all depends on if time will exist and how fast it will move. The time of your life on earth would only get smaller and smaller with every passing second in heaven.

The second day of an infant's life is the equivelent of the second 10 years of a 10 year old's life. But the longer you live the more it accelerates. Even if it's just waiting in a shell, when we look back on it a trillion years from now, it will be nothing.

[TheGame]

Of course time will exist. It just won't exist for dead people. There were people walking around before us and we have no memory of that stuff because we didn't exist just like after we exist.

sorry, I edited my post a bit.

[mickydaniels]

After you die there is no concept of time... the way I see it you are just KOed when you die. But because heaven is forever, waiting a million years would be just like waiting a second if there is no end. Right?

Even if it's just waiting in a shell, when we look back on it a trillion years from now, it will be nothing.


But what about the dead knowing nothing and having no reward?

[Jason1]

Im Catholic...got confirmed and everything. I only go to church once a month now, whenever my mom makes me.

[Joeiss]

I am Roman Catholic. Well, technically I am Ukranian Catholic, but now I go to a Roman Catholic church.

I am always open to new ideas. I believe that everybody goes to heaven no matter what they believe in, just as long as they are good people!

[Rndm_Perfection]

I don't go to church, I don't study religion (any of them), but I have been brought up under "Christian" beliefs.


What's religion a question of? What will happen when you die... how were you born? The "answer to life" can't be merely thought up by a man (or woman, to all you feminists that can't see the "man" in Woman), I believe. Maybe through technological advances in Science. But... we'd know by now if there was an exceptional divinity. Yet, since dead men tell no tales... many still believe.


What is worth fighting for? Your theory of what will happen when you die? If that is so, don't mind me (anyone for that matter) killing you... and then you can find out if you were right.


My personal belief of the bible (going back into Christianity and other similar... but not necessarily "based upon" religions), is that it is a catalyst for story telling and maintaining domestic ethic values. Perhaps a lot of it was based on the firsthand beliefs of those who wrote it, but maybe that was because most of the stories and ideals were passed to them. But, what I'm pointing out is that it would be "impossible" for one man to guess the nature of the universe's creation, the actuality of divinity, and the aftermath of death. Similarly, I disbelieve that a few brainstormers could be more accurate.


I guess I'm too stuck on mathematics and sciences. While I'm interested in the prospect of accurate religious beliefs, I am currently in disbelief due to the fact that I am unaware of any greater powers (destiny, afterlife, etc...).


The only thing that boggles my mind is the fact that... I am me, not anybody else, and that I am in fact alive. It needs explaining, of course... but I'm not going to just believe something and then wait 'til I die to find out.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I believe that everybody goes to heaven no matter what they believe in, just as long as they are good people!

You posted after I replied... so I'm going to double post.


As for as Christianity is concerned, I do believe that the God would understand his "creations" enough to let any naturally good hearted person into heaven... rather than make it like an elitist club. Damn those litist clubs *shakes a fist*


Which reminds me of that one South Park episode... where only Mormons got into Heaven *laughs*.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I'm not religious and I think all religions are complete BS.

PS. There is no god.

:)

[Bond]

I'm a Christian, I was raised Jewish, until the Lord came to me and changed my life.
Would you like to share how the Lord came to you? It's always interesting how the Lord came to people differently in the past and now he comes in different ways. I'm not really implying anything, just making conversation.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Would you like to share how the Lord came to you? It's always interesting how the Lord came to people differently in the past and now he comes in different ways. I'm not really implying anything, just making conversation.

In other words, do you mean:

A) He floated down and had a word with you about your religion

B) One of your friends/associates/random stranger from heaven suggested the change of religion for your sake.

[Vampyr]

hey whats going to happen to you when you die? i dont see you going anywhere do you want to know where you are going to be on the ground rotting just like you said.

Thats almost offensive. Mind you, I said, almost. How do you know I will rot in the ground? How do you know that whatever makes me humane wont go somewhere after I die? I dont know either, but I have a chance. I have an oportunity. You see, I have a dream. I want to live forever. And if there is a chance that having faith, being a good person, and accepting that God is up there, than Im going to do it. If Im wrong, Ill lay in the ground and rot, and it wont really matter. Id like for you to convert, but my friend, I will not lose sleep over it.

I'm a Christian, I was raised Jewish, until the Lord came to me and changed my life. I am now a Christian, as I said before. The denimination I presently practice is Episcoplian, as I find the "high churchness" of it brings me closer to God, and shows some of the best we can give, in terms of worship. Indeed, my personal relationship with God is that which makes me unseceptable to athiest banter. And while I, personally, don't believe you are going to hell, I do think your life would be more fulfilled if you let God into your hearts.I'm not trying to convert anyone... and I think this is not the place for anyone to attemp that.

Hmm, Ive never heard of the Episcoplian denomination. Ill have to research it. Im not sure what their beliefs are, but according to the bible, it is our jobs as Christains to convert people. And I have to disagree with you on another thing, I do think they're going to Hell. You dont confess your sins and believe, than yeah, your going to Hell. Thats what my religon teaches anyway, Im not sure about the Episcoplian denomination and how they translate the bible, though.

Because we don't need guidelines in order to be good individuals in life? Because we can accept death and the fact that there's nothing after? And if there's really an afterlife, are you telling me that because I didn't follow any of those organised religions, even though I have been a good man all my life, that I won't be allowed to that place you call heaven?

Yes.

What about atheist? Like me, ignoring every single form of organised religion, but leading a life by trying to be a good person as much as possible.

Than youre a good man. But according to my religon, is going to be damned to hell.

Ah yes, Pascal's Wager. The problem with it is choosing which religion to believe in. Why exactly is it that picking a religion equates to having "faith and believe in the mercy of its God?" Not all religions have a God that's supposed to be merciful. In fact, not all religions have a God.

Besides, you can't exactly just wake up in the morning and say, "Hey, I should be religious so I have a chance for something better. I didn't believe in God before, but I'm going to start believing now."

I don't get it. I don't see anything in your definition of the word "agnostic" that says an agnostic is someone who, among other things, tries to be a good person as much as possible. Are you saying that if someone is atheist, he can't possibly be making every effort to be good?

With all due respect, I think that's absurd.

I'd say more, but I'm really not sure you've thought through exactly what you're trying to say. If you could clarify more, I'd be happy to discuss my point of view.

By the way, I'm a Buddhist, and I'm also Atheist in the sense that I don't think there is a God. The two are not incompatible.

I was talking about my God. But if you want to worship another one, go ahead, but I dont approve. But even if you do worship another, you still got a better chance than being an athiest. And its possible to wake up in the morning and just believe. It can happen.

You are right, however, about the agnostic thing. Being Agnostic has nothing to do with not believing but being a good person. It means to recognize that all religons could possibly be right, but you dont believe an any of them.

But Im not going to diss you, because you do have a religon. I will just say that it would be wise to convert because I think your wrong. But Im going to say that because its my job as a christain to conver others. But Buddhism, in my opinion, is a great set of beliefs and teachings.

After you die there is no concept of time... the way I see it you are just KOed when you die. But because heaven is forever, waiting a million years would be just like waiting a second if there is no end. Right?

I may be wrong, I haven't read anything to conflict with it, but I think the second you die in your eyes everything will be done almost instantly... it all depends on if time will exist and how fast it will move. The time of your life on earth would only get smaller and smaller with every passing second in heaven.

The second day of an infant's life is the equivelent of the second 10 years of a 10 year old's life. But the longer you live the more it accelerates. Even if it's just waiting in a shell, when we look back on it a trillion years from now, it will be nothing.

I agree with everything the game has said, especially this. What your saying is that you believe in purgitory, right? Because I believe in purgitory, and I believe in what you said.

well... I find that reasonable to... but people who hear it and flatly deny it... AND go out and argue against it are the people who are in the most trouble imo. SOme people just have no excuse except that they simply refuse to believe. Some people are so bad that even if events in the bible start happening they would still rather look for another explanation rather than submit and believe. These are the people I have extreme doubt about going to heaven.

Yeah, espicially since about 50% of the bible is prophecy and its all coming true so far.

I guess I'm too stuck on mathematics and sciences. While I'm interested in the prospect of accurate religious beliefs, I am currently in disbelief due to the fact that I am unaware of any greater powers (destiny, afterlife, etc...).

I didnt want to quote everything you said, but it was all well thought out, and I especially liked the part about people not seeing the man in woman. But this was my favorite passage. You say you are too stuck on mathematics and sciences? Then religons bust baffle you. Science can not and never will prove the creation of the universe. There are so many theories, and none can ever be proven. Ponder, for a second, how can science and math ever explain the creationo of the universe? If the big bang theory is true, then I want to know where that ball of material came from that exploaded? How can science explain this? It is a set in stone science fact that matter cannot be created. Then how did our universe ever start? Where did the material first come from to create this place, if matter cant be created? Is it so hard just have faith? To disregard all laws of man and physics, if not just for one second, and imagine that its possible, and that you dont need proof?
Sorry for the ramblings, but thats what I think. The universe is a magnificent thing. Its the most enigmatic thing, in well, the unverse. :rolleyes:

Final Words: For all you non believers, if I cant sway you with words of believing so that you have the chance to go to heaven, than what about going to hell? If your wrong, and there is a God, than its going to suck big time for you when you die. You will suffer pain and torture forever. Forever is a strange word, and its impossible for the human brain to comprehend it. You have to understand, if you said "forever is till the end of time" you would be wrong, because forever is longer than that. Forever is forever, if Hell does exist, than imagine it, you will feel ultimate pain that never ends. Never. Never. Never. It goes on and on, and you will never feel a break, never die and leave the pain behind. It will hold onto you, and you will never escape it. If you try to imagine how long forever is, it will start to hurt your brain.

Thus ends my sermon on the soap box. All arguements are welcome.

[Vampyr]

I want to say something else on a different subject, sorry for the double post.

Anyone who hasnt read "Children of the Mind" by Orson Scott Card should do so. Its the fourth book in a Quartet, so you may want to read the first three first, Enders Game, Speaker for the Dead, and Xenocide. But Children of the Mind has such a great explanation of our unverse and how things work. Its fiction, but its so interesting. And for all you athiest out there, the main character, Ender, is athiest. And its strange, I preach about how much better Christianity is, but Ender is like my idol.

[GameMaster]

I'm not religious and I think all religions are complete BS.

PS. There is no god.

:)


May God have mercy on your sinful soul :distress:

[Kitana85]

Hmm, Ive never heard of the Episcoplian denomination. Ill have to research it.


Ever hear of the Church of England or the Anglican Communion? the Episcopal Church is the branch of the Anglican Communion that functions in America... you could also look at as the church of England in America.

Bond, I'll write my story when I have a change, but I have an article about Sally Ride speaking at my school next week for the school paper do tonight and a paper due tommorrow.

[Crono]

ag*nos*tic

1.
a. One who believes it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

I am an agnostic as well. I just don't think that we will ever know if there truly is some sort of God. I will also never put my faith into something that is over 2000 years old. On top of that... I used to be Christian but I never went to Church... so even if I did have a Religion... I would probably be too lazy to do anything.

[Vampyr]

I am an agnostic as well. I just don't think that we will ever know if there truly is some sort of God. I will also never put my faith into something that is over 2000 years old. On top of that... I used to be Christian but I never went to Church... so even if I did have a Religion... I would probably be too lazy to do anything.

I dont go to church either. Its not required. And you dont have to do a lot of work to be a christain, actually, you dont have to do any work. If you have faith and get saved, than you go to heaven. You dont even have to go to church to be saved, you ask Jesus to save you.

[Crono]

I dont go to church either. Its not required. And you dont have to do a lot of work to be a christain, actually, you dont have to do any work. If you have faith and get saved, than you go to heaven. You dont even have to go to church to be saved, you ask Jesus to save you.

Still... I have a hard time believing there is actually a God. So I'm not going to bother with any type of Religion.

[GameMaster]

Still... I have a hard time believing there is actually a God. So I'm not going to bother with any type of Religion.

Is this to blame on God or you? I find your lack of faith disturbing.

According to your logic, if I don't believe in eating, I should just not bother? :wtf:

I think you need to revaluate your statement there.

[Vampyr]

Still... I have a hard time believing there is actually a God. So I'm not going to bother with any type of Religion.

I would still read about it and such. You might change your mind, religons are very interesting.

And gamemaster, you took him way to literally.

[Crono]

Is this to blame on God or you? I find your lack of faith disturbing.

According to your logic, if I don't believe in eating, I should just not bother? :wtf:

I think you need to revaluate your statement there.

Hah... what is to blame? Me I suppose. But what's supposed to mean? I'm at fault for not believing in anything?

And let's say if someone didn't believing in eating (which is ridiculous), then they will just starve to death. That's common sense (you used a stupid example but oh well).

And I'm not a person who has faith... it's just who I am. Nothing has proved the existence of a God.

Basically what I'm saying is that things have been blown out of proportion over the past 2000 years, I don't want to take religion too seriosuly because the stories are distorted like I said. I'm not saying some of the events in the Bible didn't happen, just that they were exaggerated. Sure, maybe Jesus did help the sick, but that doesn't mean they were actually healed by him in a matter of seconds. And sure, maybe the water was seperated when Moses and Jews crossed the sea (actually there is scientific proof that is can happen, thanks to volcano near southern Greece, which has the capacity to make some of the most devastating erruptions in the world), but it doesn't mean God seperated the water for them. See what I'm saying? I don't have faith, and nothing in the religions is credible, therefore, there is no reason for me to follow Christianity.

[GameMaster]

Nothing is credible though. There is nothing in this world which we can or can't prove real.

So according to your logic again, I should just not follow or do anything, because nothing is for certain.

[Vampyr]

And I'm not a person who has faith... it's just who I am. Nothing has proved the existence of a God.

Nothing can. Its all about believing the impossible.

[Crono]

Nothing is credible though. There is nothing in this world which we can or can't prove real.

So according to your logic again, I should just not follow or do anything, because nothing is for certain.

Ok, like Vampyr said you are taking me way too literally. We're talking Religion here (which has no value to me), not things in everyday life (which has value). If my views offend you for some reason then I'm sorry, but nothing, or no one, can force me to believe in something like Religion.

I don't completely deny the existence of a God, I am just saying that there is no reason for me to believe in one.

[GameMaster]

Ok, like Vampyr said you are taking me way too literally. We're talking Religion here (which has no value to me), not things in everyday life (which has value). If my views offend you for some reason then I'm sorry, but nothing, or no one, can force me to believe in something like Religion.

I don't completely deny the existence of a God, I am just saying that there is no reason for me to believe in one.

How can you place value on things of which you don't even know are for sure real or not?! :wtf:

[Vampyr]

So according to your logic again, I should just not follow or do anything, because nothing is for certain.

How can you place value on things of which you don't even know are for sure real or not?!

Im pretty sure crono doesnt believe he is living in a dream world where worldy goods do not exist and that they are only figments of his imagination.

[Crono]

How can you place value on things of which you don't even know are for sure real or not?! :wtf:

I'll put it into easier words:

Religion means nothing to me. What do I gain from being Religous? Nothing. Or is the satisfaction and the "goodness" of Christianity? (as an example). No, I don't care about Religion. That's the simplest way I can put it. I don't care about a lot things, and Religion just happens to be in that category.

[Hero2]

I'm not religious and I think all religions are complete BS.

PS. There is no god.

:)
AMEN to that
im not religous ethier. why you ask religion is to good to be true. that or to scary to be true. one being looking over the world judging everybody.
sounds alot like bs. or you can look into more maybe god is our parents (just grouped together as one) looking over us making sure were ok... but they dont judge us in the end
or maybe there were no laws and the only way to keep people in line was to make them belief in somthing and now we have a lot of religons saying the same thing(be good and u wont die well atleast not completly) and all disagreing thats why religion is bad in the sence that it based on good beliefs and whole some acts unless you suck then well kill you. all in all its better to be good that way your bound to "get into heaven" or just die and not care.... thats why science is good i bevief in science its there and ill just lead a good life that way maybe god will have mercy on my soul or atleast just let me die in peace

[DarkMaster]

How can you place value on things of which you don't even know are for sure real or not?! :wtf:
I could say the same thing to those who do believe in God.

When it comes to religion, there are those who believe and those who don't. Since we have no way of proving either correct, we would have to assume they are both wrong, right?

Unless you can prove that Crono's way of thinking is incorrect, maybe you should rethink your statements.

BTW, no offence to you GM, this is just religion talk after all.

[GameMaster]

I'll put it into easier words:

Religion means nothing to me. What do I gain from being Religous? Nothing. Or is the satisfaction and the "goodness" of Christianity? (as an example). No, I don't care about Religion. That's the simplest way I can put it. I don't care about a lot things, and Religion just happens to be in that category.

Why limit yourself to religion? What do you gain from investing interest in anything which cannot be proven real or not real? You have a lot of conflicting statements and beliefs on your hands.

[jeepnut]

I dont go to church either. Its not required. And you dont have to do a lot of work to be a christain, actually, you dont have to do any work. If you have faith and get saved, than you go to heaven. You dont even have to go to church to be saved, you ask Jesus to save you.

Church is not what saves you I agree. However, it is a place to gather with those who share your faith and to worship as a group. It can be a beautiful thing and it is something you can't get anywhere else. Church does serve a purpose, especially in the Catholic faith.

As far as Christianity being easy, that's your view. I believe Christianity is extremely hard. Why believe in Christ if you don't follow his teachings? According to my faith, faith alone is not what saves you. This is probably our differing point. This in my opinion leads to the prevailing thought that Christians think they are better than everyone else simply because they have faith in God. There are many that have "faith", but do nothing about it. Once again, why would Christ give us all the teachings if faith was all it took?

*This didn't turn out as well as I hoped. My mind is sucking right now. Feel free to criticize and I will refine my point.*

[Crono]

Why limit yourself to religion? What do you gain from investing interest in anything which cannot be proven real or not real? You have a lot of conflicting statements and beliefs on your hands.

You just don't give up. As a start, why don't you give me other examples, things that cannot be proven. Maybe then I can explain my views more.

I WAS a Christian until about grade 5 or so... until I released all the time I spent and everything I did meant nothing to my life. It may mean something to you, and it may mean something to society as a whole, but it means nothing to me. My views on Religion can be summed up like this:
I do not care.

That's it.

[GameMaster]

You just don't give up. As a start, why don't you give me other examples, things that cannot be proven. Maybe then I can explain my views more.

I WAS a Christian until about grade 5 or so... until I released all the time I spent and everything I did meant nothing to my life. It may mean something to you, and it may mean something to society as a whole, but it means nothing to me. My views on Religion can be summed up like this:
I do not care.

That's it.

Ok, you want examples, I'll give you some things that cannot be proven:

1. Breathing
2. Food
3. Sleeping
4. A College Ruled Notebook

These things cannot be proven real.

[Vampyr]

Church is not what saves you I agree. However, it is a place to gather with those who share your faith and to worship as a group. It can be a beautiful thing and it is something you can't get anywhere else. Church does serve a purpose, especially in the Catholic faith.

As far as Christianity being easy, that's your view. I believe Christianity is extremely hard. Why believe in Christ if you don't follow his teachings? According to my faith, faith alone is not what saves you. This is probably our differing point. This in my opinion leads to the prevailing thought that Christians think they are better than everyone else simply because they have faith in God. There are many that have "faith", but do nothing about it. Once again, why would Christ give us all the teachings if faith was all it took?

*This didn't turn out as well as I hoped. My mind is sucking right now. Feel free to criticize and I will refine my point.*

Yeah, I dont think my point came out as clear either. Your post was good though, and brought up some good points that I need to clarify. Yes, church is a beautiful thing, and I wish I went. I believe that something almost as good though, is to just fellowship, when you gather together with people, almost like we're doing, and discuss religon. Its just a beautiful, in my opinion.

And about what you said about christianity not being easy. Jesus gave us his teachings because being good and loving others will greatly increase your chances. In the cahtolic faith, your faith in god must be balanced with good deeds. In my faith, faith is all you need, although good deeds will help. If you remember, in the bible there were two people on the cross. A theif and a murderer. I forget which one, but one said "if your jesus, get us down from here" the other said "remember me in heaven". Now, neither one did good deeds, but we can infer from the scripture that the one who said "remember me in heaven" was saved right then and went to heaven. In that example, good deeds werent important.

[Crono]

Ok, you want examples, I'll give you some things that cannot be proven:

1. Breathing
2. Food
3. Sleeping
4. A College Ruled Notebook

These things cannot be proven real.

Lol.. what the hell?

So breathing can't be proven? Then why is breathing the only way I'm living right now?

Food can't be proven? Then why do we die without food? Food is an essential part of life, it can be any type of food, as long as it's a source of energy, THAT is a scientific fact.

If I don't sleep, how do I restore energy? Sleeping is a form of restoring energy, humans do it every day, how is that unproven?

And a notebook? What is there to prove about it?

[Vampyr]

1. Breathing
2. food
3. sleeping
4. college ruled notebook

what in the world are you smoking? College ruled notebooks are most certainly real, and can be proven so.

[GameMaster]

Lol.. what the hell?

So breathing can't be proven? Then why is breathing the only way I'm living right now?

Food can't be proven? Then why do we die without food? Food is an essential part of life, it can be any type of food, as long as it's a source of energy, THAT is a scientific fact.

If I don't sleep, how do I restore energy? Sleeping is a form of restoring energy, humans do it every day, how is that unproven?

And a notebook? What is there to prove about it?

1. Define living.

2. Who are you to say we die if we don't eat. Can you prove death?

3. How do you know you're really alsleep. If you can't recall what you were doing for eight hours last night, than how do you expect me to believe you were sleeping? :wtf:

4. Prove that a notebook is indeed a notebook. Prove it exists.

[Hero2]

1. Define living.

2. Who are you to say we die if we don't eat. Can you prove death?

3. How do you know you're really alsleep. If you can't recall what you were doing for eight hours last night, than how do you expect me to believe you were sleeping? :wtf:

4. Prove that a notebook is indeed a notebook. Prove it exists.
define existence

[GameMaster]

define exsitance

I rest my case.

[Crono]

1. Define living.

2. Who are you to say we die if we don't eat. Can you prove death?

3. How do you know you're really alsleep. If you can't recall what you were doing for eight hours last night, than how do you expect me to believe you were sleeping? :wtf:

1. You're getting off topic. How does this relate to me about not caring about Religion?

2. Hmm.... why don't you try not eating for a while? Perhaps until you fall face-first on the floor? You'll see my point then.

3. Who cares? I go to bed when I'm tired, when I get up 8 hours later, my body is refreshed and ready to start a new day. That's all I need to care about at this point in my life.

As stated twice, you are taking me too literally, and definitely taking this a bit too far.

[Joeiss]

I was talking about my God. But if you want to worship another one, go ahead, but I dont approve. But even if you do worship another, you still got a better chance than being an athiest. And its possible to wake up in the morning and just believe. It can happen.


I hate people with this rationale. What the hell makes you so positive that your chosen religion is the right one? Nobody knows. For all we know, Atheists could be right. There might not be a God. I do believe that there is, but I am just one person. The fact that you don't approve of people worshipping other things is bull****. Who are you to disapprove? The only person who can disapprove of something like that is God, and you might be the person that he is disapproving of.

[Ginkasa]

I hate people with this rationale. What the hell makes you so positive that your chosen religion is the right one? Nobody knows. For all we know, Atheists could be right. There might not be a God. I do believe that there is, but I am just one person. The fact that you don't approve of people worshipping other things is bull****. Who are you to disapprove? The only person who can disapprove of something like that is God, and you might be the person that he is disapproving of.



Well... Huh? So.. you're saying that God may be disapproving of Vampyr who worships God.. So God would be disapproving him of worshiping Him?

And if you truly believed in God, there would be no room for the possibility of other gods. It ruins everything about believing in God. If you admit that you might be wrong, you are not truly faithful and cannot be considered a real Christian...

I don't know... Your post is... Wierd...


*shrugs and walks away*

[GameMaster]

1. You're getting off topic. How does this relate to me about not caring about Religion?

2. Hmm.... why don't you try not eating for a while? Perhaps until you fall face-first on the floor? You'll see my point then.

3. Who cares? I go to bed when I'm tired, when I get up 8 hours later, my body is refreshed and ready to start a new day. That's all I need to care about at this point in my life.

As stated twice, you are taking me too literally, and definitely taking this a bit too far.

I'm not off topic. You see, the problem with you people is that you only take the time to question your belief in the big things (parting of seas, fish to loaves of bread and water to wine, the mighty plagues) but then you completely blow off the little things in life like eating yogurt, raising your hand, or calling someone a bad word. When none of this can or can't be proven, how can you priortize any of it as being more or less worthy of questioning?

[Ginkasa]

I'm not off topic. You see, the problem with you people is that you only take the time to question your belief in the big things (parting of seas, fish to loaves of bread and water to wine, the mighty plagues) but then you completely blow off the little things in life like eating yogurt, raising your hand, or calling someone a bad word. When none of this can or can't be proven, how can you priortize any of it as being more or less worthy of questioning?



He's not questioning his belief... He has no belief to question! Besides, what are you trying to prove? That everything in life is a beautiful thing? That life is an illusion? God is real? God isn't real? The Matrix is real?

WT* are you talking about?


*shrugs and walks away*

[DarkMaster]

1. Define living.

2. Who are you to say we die if we don't eat. Can you prove death?

3. How do you know you're really alsleep. If you can't recall what you were doing for eight hours last night, than how do you expect me to believe you were sleeping? :wtf:

4. Prove that a notebook is indeed a notebook. Prove it exists.
1. I don't live. Prove me wrong.

2. Can you prove death doesnt exist?

3. If you ate food and you are no longer hungry, how can you prove that you did in fact eat that food? Can you prove the past?

4. A notebook is a notebook because I say it is. Prove me wrong.

Meanings of life are based upon how you interpret them. There is no right or wrong, there is only opinion.

[Crono]

Thank you, Ginkasa and DM. GameMaster, you are taking this too far, I don't care about Religion and I don't want to be Religous. It is the lifestyle I chose, just as I chose to be "different" from the rest of the "cool" kids, and just as I chose gaming to be a major part of my life. It has nothing to do with what is truly real or not, because I don't care if God is/was actually real.. if "he" is, then fine. It won't bother me until the day I die (assuming there's an afterlife... which is an completely different topic).

[GameMaster]

He's not questioning his belief... He has no belief to question! Besides, what are you trying to prove? That everything in life is a beautiful thing? That life is an illusion? God is real? God isn't real? The Matrix is real?

WT* are you talking about?


*shrugs and walks away*

If he has nothing to question, then he's obviosuly made some decisions.

And how can one priotize the decision of something when everything can/cannot be proven real/unreal.

Where do you go about starting to decide let alone deciding one thing before another when it's all equal?

[Vampyr]

I hate people with this rationale. What the hell makes you so positive that your chosen religion is the right one? Nobody knows. For all we know, Atheists could be right. There might not be a God. I do believe that there is, but I am just one person. The fact that you don't approve of people worshipping other things is bull****. Who are you to disapprove? The only person who can disapprove of something like that is God, and you might be the person that he is disapproving of.

Yes, this post is indeed wierd. I believe that my religon is the one and only correct one because I want too. And if you give me crap that the only reason I believe this is because I grew up believing, than Im going to tell you good for me. I guess I got luckier that that hindu kid.

Well... Huh? So.. you're saying that God may be disapproving of Vampyr who worships God.. So God would be disapproving him of worshiping Him?

And if you truly believed in God, there would be no room for the possibility of other gods. It ruins everything about believing in God. If you admit that you might be wrong, you are not truly faithful and cannot be considered a real Christian...

Too right. His post was very wierd. And your second paragraph is also very true.

1. I don't live. Prove me wrong.

2. Can you prove death doesnt exist?

3. If you ate food and you are no longer hungry, how can you prove that you did in fact eat that food? Can you prove the past?

4. A notebook is a notebook because I say it is. Prove me wrong.


*congratulates Darkmaster on a post well done*

[Ginkasa]

GM:

See, now you're not even arguing or debating with anybody. You're just raising stupid philosophical, unanswerable questions that mean jack squat in the grand scheme of the world.

The only thing you're proving is that you're an idiot who has no clue what he's talking about.

I'm done with this. This is probably just some wierd scheme of your's to get attention or try to take part of an intelligent conversation that you have no clue about.

Don't reply until you have something to say that people would actually care about.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Hero2]

I rest my case.

existence.

1 a obsolete : reality as opposed to appearance
b : reality as presented in experience
c (1) : the totality of existent things
(2) : a particular being <all the fair existences of heaven -- John Keats> d : sentient or living being : LIFE
2 a : the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence
b : the manner of being that is common to every mode of being
c : being with respect to a limiting condition or under a particular aspect
3 : continued or repeated manifestation

thus anything you have seen felt learned is existence.
existence is your way of life anything you have incountered is existence.
to question what you have seen felt touched is foolish your alive im alive thats a given if anything above and beond that that has not been touched by you is not existence. have you felt god have you seen god or have you read about him maybe saw a picture. ive seen a note book its notie and bookie ive felt it and even eaten a page anything can be questioned and proven except god soo whether hes there and dosent want to be found or hes not there and someone needs to belive in somthing anything just to have hope. anyway it doenst matter if he is god then he has a plan wether you belive or not and what is that you can see and fell that is existence. god is just... somewhere else or not there at all.

[GameMaster]

How significant is "jack squat" in a world which cannot be proven.

[Vampyr]

in a world which cannot be proven.

Oh, the humanity, here he goes again.

[GameMaster]

thus anything you have seen felt learned is existence.
existence is your way of life anything you have incountered is existence.
to question what you have seen felt touched is foolish your alive im alive thats a given if anything above and beond that that has not been touched by you is not existence. have you felt god have you seen god or have you read about him maybe saw a picture. ive seen a note book its notie and bookie ive felt it and even eaten a page anything can be questioned and proven except god soo whether hes there and dosent want to be found or hes not there and someone needs to belive in somthing anything just to have hope. anyway it doenst matter if he is god then he has a plan wether you belive or not and what is that you can see and fell that is existence. god is just... somewhere else or not there at all.

Yes, but how can I prove myself existant? How can I prove that someone has seen, felt, or learned of me when everything else is a result of my seeing, feeling, and learning.

According to your logic, everything exists because of me. How could I make myself exist though? How did I make myself exist to make everything else exist to make me exist?

[Hero2]

Yes, but how can I prove myself existant? How can I prove that someone has seen, felt, or learned of me when everything else is a result of my seeing, feeling, and learning.

According to your logic, everything exists because of me. How could I make myself exist though? How did I make myself exist to make everything else exist to make me exist?
if your here then how do you not existence.
it doesent matter who made you existence. Its the fact that you do existence that matters

[GameMaster]

Umm, all those "existence" should have been "exist". :)

As for your question:

I can't prove/disprove that I'm here.

[Ace195]

if your here then how do you not existence.
it doesent matter who made you existence. Its the fact that you do existence that matters


Thats deep jeff thats really deep that touches me right here *points to heart*

[Hero2]

Umm, all those "existence" should have been "exist". :)

As for your question:

I can't prove/disprove that I'm here.
yes you can open your eyes are you there then thats existence. you exist. existence is you being there nothing more if your there you exist. and dont say how to prove your there theres nothing to prove you can type i can interact with you your there dont make it more then that if you do then your wrong. dont look for answers that have no question its just a stupid saying you thought sounds cool but gets old
p.s. ace i try

[GameMaster]

How can you prove/disprove that what your eyes show you is what's really there or not there?

[Hero2]

because it is there how can you question it not being there you giving the word a differnt meaing like saying this jelly dont tase like penut butter
of course it doesnt. how else can you prove somthing. there is no other way you see it its there end of story.

[Vampyr]

How can you prove/disprove that what your eyes show you is what's really there or not there?

For Your Information: The things shown in the Matrix are not true. It is a fictionary world created by some guy that had too much time on his hands. It is a great movie, but you should not believe what it says. I think you've watched it one too many times.

[TheGame]

lol, belive it or not, I like Gamemaster's arguement.

He is thinking along the lines of a movie I have seen, to give a better example... The Matrix... or even worse the 13th floor (or somthing like that).

How do we know we are real and not a AI program? We could be living in some futurisic verion of the Sims... my way of disproving that I live in some type of Matrix is my faith. If you have faith in nothing you aren't alive.

You believe that you are real, and that's all a matter of faith, you can't prove you are real, it's just progrmmed into your head... just like the Sims. It's impossible to not poor ny faith into anyhing, because if you didn't you might as well be dead.

I'm not saying go out and kill yourself, but even if you were to, you have faiht that when that bullet goes through your head you will die.

Like GM said about the food, Crono quickly sruck back with the fact that he would die if he stopped eating... but guess what... Crono obviously hasn't stopped eating long enough to find out... he just has faith that stopping will kill him.

How do you guys know if we are real or not? Or if every person place and thing you have ever run into are just ailens here testing you? Why don't you pove that? You can't jump into another person's body can you? You just have what you have.

Why do people have compassion for others? Because they think they are the same, but you really don't know until you become them, which you can't.

I'm even confusing myself the way I am talking, but at least I feel I have purpose in life. Some have faith in science, some have faith in thier own beliefs, and some have faith in God. The key is no matter if you are aithest or not, you have faith in somthing, if you like it or not.

So GM using food as a form of belief is reasonable. Just because you drop the ball the same way into the same spot for years, it doesn't mean that the next time you do it the result will be the same...the next time it could float up and hit you in the head. Nothing is guranteed.

We don't even know the sun will come up tomorrow... are there parts of the world you haven't been to? Well, you don't know it's real, or if it's fake until you go there for yourself. You cannot prove anyhing you haven't done, faith is the only way to come to a reasonable conclusion.

You think you will die it you shoot yourself in the head? Well you can't prove it... maybe if one of us ailens who are testng you would go away if that happens, but you don't know that it will happen the next time or if you try it on yourself. You have faih that it will or it won't

[Hero2]

*claps* bravo
all I have to say is wjy does it matter
if your here then your here if not then why should you care your not real thus leading into the ultimate question ??why??

[TheGame]

*claps* bravo
all I have to say is wjy does it matter
if your here then your here if not then why should you care your not real thus leading into the ultimate question ??why??

I don't understand what you are trying to say

The point of my post an the point of beating MGS2 (;)) is that I have faith in the Bible... does that mean that it's going to happen for sure? Well, I'm about as sure of the Bible as you guys are sure that the sun will come up tomorrow morning... does that mean it's truly going to happen? We don't know until we experience, but we have faith in tomorrow.

I have my answer to the 'Why' of my life, until proven otherwise that's what I know will happen. Just like Crono knows stopping eating
will kill him.

[GameMaster]

And with that being said, I hereby declare myself and TheGame the winners of this thread! ;)

Ok Justin, lock this baby up. ;)

[TheGame]

And with that being said, I hereby declare myself and TheGame the winners of this thread! ;)

Ok Justin, lock this baby up. ;)

:lol:

I would never abuse my power like that ;)

Ok, unless I'm agueing with D-RealLoser... :)

(because he would flame me and give me a legit reason to :sneaky: )

[Bond]

GameMaster you are so caught up in yourself it's ridiculous.

I won't even bother to repeat what other people have already said. You are very close to getting banned from this forum. Contribute productively or don't contribute at all.

[Stonecutter]

This here is the withstandinator, it can take a six megaton blast, no more, no less.


/me hops in.

[jeepnut]

thus anything you have seen felt learned is existence.
existence is your way of life anything you have incountered is existence.
to question what you have seen felt touched is foolish your alive im alive thats a given if anything above and beond that that has not been touched by you is not existence. have you felt god have you seen god or have you read about him maybe saw a picture. ive seen a note book its notie and bookie ive felt it and even eaten a page anything can be questioned and proven except god soo whether hes there and dosent want to be found or hes not there and someone needs to belive in somthing anything just to have hope. anyway it doenst matter if he is god then he has a plan wether you belive or not and what is that you can see and fell that is existence. god is just... somewhere else or not there at all.

Good grief man. Use periods!

My head hurts.

[Ginkasa]

lol, belive it or not, I like Gamemaster's arguement.



That's great... But what is he arguing? He was talking about something completely different than everybody else. I don't know if he actually thought it was relevant or if he's just stupid, but his "arguement" does not belond in this conversation at all. Or any other threads (he seems to think that this whole "exist or not exist" crap is relevant in the usergroup thread as well :rolleyes: )

He's entitled to his opinion (although it seems to contradict what he was initially saying) and you're entitled to your's, but this particular opinion is being told in the wrong place.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Ace195]

Not to jump in in the wrong spot or anything. But who cares if we exist or not. I mean if we don't then who knows ? But I mean as long as we "think" we exist lets atleast have fun with out lives before we become some meaningless "fertilizer" if we do exist. I'm not saying go loot and pillage I'm saying smile more, don't judge on apperances, be happy with your self image, don't follow lead. These are all just things that I believe people should live by. And by doing that weither we're really here or not makes no diffrence because if you do those things then you made someone esle's existence better and if were not really here who's gonna know ?

[Xantar]

Hmmm...GameMaster getting caught up in an empty argument about existence in which he uses questionable logic just for the sake of, as far as I can tell, hearing his own voice.

Where have I seen this before?

Sorry, GameMaster. If Bond decides to ban you, I can't pull you out of this one. Although I'm not sure I would want to anyway.

In case you guys haven't figured it out yet, GameMaster isn't worth paying attention to. Just ignore what he says. Or even put him on your ignore list.

[BreakABone]

I go away to school for one week, and a religion thread rears it's ugly head again.

In the time from the last relgiion thread, which was what 5-10 mins ago or so? I realized I have no faith, but am spiritual or so my friends told me when we had this discussion over pizza. If you must know, I had a slice with a hot dog roll and a Tropical Sprite Remix.

GameMaster, as always you just try too damn hard. I mean just because you try and make an intelligent arguement doesn't make you look intelligent. I forget the old cliche, but it's something along the lines of "Better to be thought of a fool, then to speak and remove all doubts."

As for Justin, it's not too shocking to see you agree with the most farfetched arguement thrown out =-D , but your logic works and doesn't work. We have no idea in knowing if we really exist or if we are just some game someone else is playing. And in the long run, it really doesn't matter. We don't make our living on knowing we exist, we exist as our own entity. We may or may not make our own decisions, but as long as we perceive that we do, we are fine, and until you can prove it wrong, eh.


Anyhow, textbooks call.

[Dyne]

100th Post.

=o

You guys sure like to argue.

[Vampyr]

You guys sure like to argue.

Yes, Yes I do. But I don't argue just for the sake of agrueing, I believe what I'm talking about.

[TheGame]

I realized I have no faith.

Then you completly missed the point of my post ;)

Faith is believing in somthing... and there are a lot of things you can believe in. Every human I know has faith in somthing. You have probably made plans to buy somthing or do somthing with your life in the future... but the fact that you are making plans for the future means you believe that there will be a tomorrow.

Will there be tomorrow? Unless sombody has a time machine and have seen it, there is no way to tell. Will there even be a tomorrow for you personally? Who knows, you could die today.. hell, even right as you read this post... but you have faith in the fact that you won't, even though it can't be proven.

There I go confusing myself again... :confused:

Anyway, I doubt there is a person in theis forum who has no faith in somthing that may or may not be true and that may or may not happen. That's the thing about the world, nothing is guaranteed, but if we were to think this way 24/7 we would probably be suicidal maniacs.

to have no faith you would have to sit there questioning each second of your life, one by one by one, no sleep, no food, no nothing.

[BreakABone]

Then you completly missed the point of my post ;)

Faith is believing in somthing... and there are a lot of things you can believe in. Every human I know has faith in somthing. You have probably made plans to buy somthing or do somthing with your life in the future... but the fact that you are making plans for the future means you believe that there will be a tomorrow.

Will there be tomorrow? Unless sombody has a time machine and have seen it, there is no way to tell. Will there even be a tomorrow for you personally? Who knows, you could die today.. hell, even right as you read this post... but you have faith in the fact that you won't, even though it can't be proven.

There I go confusing myself again... :confused:

Anyway, I doubt there is a person in theis forum who has no faith in somthing that may or may not be true and that may or may not happen. That's the thing about the world, nothing is guaranteed, but if we were to think this way 24/7 we would probably be suicidal maniacs.

to have no faith you would have to sit there questioning each second of your life, one by one by one, no sleep, no food, no nothing.

Hey, I never read any of your posts, it's usually

*Makes point*

Blah..blah..blah..

*Tries to make point again*


Bleh...bleh..bleh...

=-D

I just skimmed it really so eh, but who knows.

And define faith, I mean you can have "faith" in yourself, but that is completely different than having "faith" in an uneartherly being.

[TheGame]

And define faith, I mean you can have "faith" in yourself, but that is completely different than having "faith" in an uneartherly being.

Having faith in anything is the same as having faith in anything else... faith is believing is somthing that cannot be proven... and if somthing hasn't happend yet, it cannot be proven. So if you believe somthing will happen in the future, you have faith in it. Just like a person beliveing in the future after they die that they are going to heaven, you can't prove them wrong... just I can't prove you wrong if you say somthing you have no control over will happen.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Seeeee I told you this thread would start controversy. Hurrah!

Anyway, I'm an aetheist because I just scientifically don't believe there could have ever been a god. Or heck maybe there was a god who came here and created this place, and maybe now he's gone back to his wife somewhere in this galaxy and he could care less about us. Maybe god is an alien. Have you guy's ever heard of Occam's Razor? Basically it means the simplest explanation is the right one? Right? So the simplest explanation here is that there is no god! I mean It's much more believable right that there is some all powerful being out there that watches over us and controls everything right? I call that a tall tell my friend, like Paul Bunyan and his big blue ox.

Who's to say that Jesus wasn't some nut who went around spouting off some tale in his head, and eventually he got some followers. Notice how all these religions were started by men?! Hmm.

[Ginkasa]

You think a massive explosion of mass that seemingly came out of nowhere (even though that's supposedly impossible) that then reacted together in such a way to create billions of stars and planets and eventually Earth is simpler than God made everything?

*snort*


*shrugs and walks away*

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I think the chances of what you just described happening, Ginkasa, are a lot more likely than some all mighty superbeing thing that made everything and everyone and controls everything and everyone.

[Mechadragon]

Is this to blame on God or you? I find your lack of faith disturbing.
I've always found pretending to be a member of the opposite sex disturbing but that's just me.

And I'm an Atheist .:)

[GameMaster]

I've always found pretending to be a member of the opposite sex disturbing but that's just me.

And I'm an Atheist .:)

That means nothing coming from someone with the title 'Fuzzy Bunny'. You common peon, get back to work.

----> You :retard: :whip: Me <----

[Vampyr]

You think a massive explosion of mass that seemingly came out of nowhere (even though that's supposedly impossible) that then reacted together in such a way to create billions of stars and planets and eventually Earth is simpler than God made everything?

Exactly. If people believe that the big bang theory is correct, and that this ball of energy exploded, than all of the atoms reconnected to form these massive fusion reactors called stars, and then formed to form earth, with the exact things we need to live, then formed us the exact way we need to be, with all our organs inside our body, and then some how these atoms were able to connect in such a way that we are alive, and can move, and are not inanimate and we can think . I would say that God comeing and just making us is much simpler indeed, and much more probable than all those atoms connecting and forming and changine in the perfect way.

[mickydaniels]

I don't see how the big bang theory makes any type of sense at all. Let's use an example of a recent explosion that we're all aware of on September 11th. After the planes made the buildings go BOOM, and they were still standing, was anything in some kind of perfect structure, order or anything. I have a hard time believing that some explosion caused the planets to line up in an order, orbit the sun, and do things in set patterns like the universe does. I have never seen any explosions or heard of any explosions that cause order and structure.

[TheGame]

Yes... God is the simple explination.

The Big Bang Theory is suspect... things just don't appear from nothing, especially somthing as complex as life.

Think about the most powerful super computer in the world... the technology that build that is trillions of years behind the technology it would take to build a whole new race of people who can think and survive like humans from scratch. And keep in mind I'm comparing building to building. In how some think we were created, we would have just had to been made by the environment from nothing with nothing aiding us.

People say we grew from organisims... where did they come from? Somewhere down the line somthing put us here... I would believe that before I could believe 'It just happend'

We just happen to be the smartest being on this planet, in the perfect situation..... how and why?

[Crono]

I don't see how the big bang theory makes any type of sense at all. Let's use an example of a recent explosion that we're all aware of on September 11th. After the planes made the buildings go BOOM, and they were still standing, was anything in some kind of perfect structure, order or anything. I have a hard time believing that some explosion caused the planets to line up in an order, orbit the sun, and do things in set patterns like the universe does. I have never seen any explosions or heard of any explosions that cause order and structure.

The Big Bang Theory isn't an explosion that could take down two buildings. In this case, you're talking about a very small explosion (it may have killed 2000+ people, but the explosion is very small). On the other hand, the Big Bang would've been a massive explosion, nothing you could ever dream or think of, it would've been an explosion of 100s of billions of km in diameter, releasing massive amounts of Hydrogen in the process. It is said that all other elements (besides Helium, because Hydrogen and Helium are the two most abundant elements in the Universe) were born from Hydrogen through intense nuclear and chemical reactions, which would result in the necessary elements like Oxygen, which would later form Water, with the help of Hydrogen.

When thinking about the Big Bang Theory, it is much more complex than just a regular explosion like you've seen on tv or in movies. This type of explosion would probably wipe out our solar system in a matter of minutes, and like I said, it would release HUGE amounts energy through fusion and/or fission processes. Now, as far as I know, there is no theory on how the explosion actually ccured. I may be wrong, however. But the point I am trying to make is that the Big Bang Theory is much more complex than what you may believe, and because you don't understand the complex nature of physics, you, and many others, will shrug the Big Bang Theory as simply being impossible.

And, I must comemnt on one more thing:

We just happen to be the smartest being on this planet, in the perfect situation..... how and why?

I've always wondered why the Earth happens to be in the "perfect place". Sometimes I think it could've simply been a coincedence. Why was Pluto put in such a cold part of our solar system? Perhaps that was also randomly formed. These geological processes take billions of years to develop, not something that could happen overnight. And because of that, I do find it hard to believe something simply put us here. Maybe something did in fact guide us here, but with all the complex natures of the Universe, it is extremely hard for me to believe that one being could simply create all of this. Maybe this being helped start the Universe's expansion, but I believe everythign else was formed by the geological processes that take billions of years to do develop. Then again... that's just me. Because I'm not Religous, I see things from an entire different perspective than those who are.

[Rndm_Perfection]

The Big Bang Theory isn't an explosion that could take down two buildings. In this case, you're talking about a very small explosion (it may have killed 2000+ people, but the explosion is very small). On the other hand, the Big Bang would've been a massive explosion, nothing you could ever dream or think of, it would've been an explosion of 100s of billions of km in diameter...

The Big Bang theory believes that energy from the explosion was formed, and that energy was used to create many things.

However, I'd say the explosion would be a tad bit larget than a couple trillion km wide ¦¬Þ, seeing as how the Universe is quite possible infinitely large.


I hate infinites and paradoxs, no matter how fun they are to talk about. "There are infinite real numbers between 1 and 2... and also between 6 and 1,000. Therefor, there are the same amount of numbers between both sets". Yes, by doubling infinite, you get infinite... it... makes me... angry!! *smashy smashy*

But seriously, understanding the universe and creation is out of a Gaming Forum's league.

[TheGame]

The only answer I really got from you is that you think it was a coincidence...? :confused:

You find it hard to believe somthing put us here... why? Why couldn't a being create all this if they are infinintly smarter than we can even begin to imagine?

What is your theory on the orgin of life?

[Rndm_Perfection]

The only answer I really got from you is that you think it was a coincidence...? :confused:

You find it hard to believe somthing put us here... why? Why couldn't a being create all this if they are infinintly smarter than we can even begin to imagine?

What is your theory on the orgin of life?

Who, me? Err, I'm undecided. I don't believe the Big Bang theory at all. Why couldn't a being create the universe, you ask? Well, it may have been possible, but that doesn't explain "the origin". That is, if something did make the universe, then what made the "creator"? Paradoxes... paradoxes!


P.S. If there is a god, what "made" the god?

[Crono]

The only answer I really got from you is that you think it was a coincidence...? :confused:

You find it hard to believe somthing put us here... why? Why couldn't a being create all this if they are infinintly smarter than we can even begin to imagine?

What is your theory on the orgin of life?

1. Yes, a coincidence. Why were the Rocky Mountains formed? Why was the Pacific Ocean formed? Why were the Himalaya's formed? It was by random Gelogical processes, that's how I believe the Earth was formed. It just could've happened that the rocks from 4.7 Billion years ago stopped in a perfect orbit distance from the sun. If you don't see my point... then why are the other planets not in good places? Perhaps they were also random. Why would God put other planets there for no reason? As far as we can see, the other 8 planets are of no value to us. Mars is a giant rustball, what is the point of it? Processes like these take billions of years, and the Earth is still changing today. That, is basic Earth Science.

2. But who knows if there is a smarter being? Unless it's brain can take on 1000s of tasks at once, such creation would take thousands, if not millions of years to develop. As I stated earlier in this thread, I do not deny the existence of such a being, I just find it hard to believe, there is a huge difference. Religion vs Science is one of the oldest battle in books, I'm just trying to help Science in this thread... because most people seem to be pro-Religion (nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying).

3. I don't know how life originated. It is probably impossible for us to know. The Universe is way too big for us to study it's natural history. Chemical reactions can naturally provide the essentials for life, but when it comes to how we, humans, actually got here... I really have no idea.

[The Duggler]

It may not be the big bang, but at least, it's a better theory than believing god simply created everything. Or as the Game said, it might be something else that created us, but it certainly not happened like it's described in the bible.

The only answer I really got from you is that you think it was a coincidence...? :confused:

You find it hard to believe somthing put us here... why? Why couldn't a being create all this if they are infinintly smarter than we can even begin to imagine?

What is your theory on the orgin of life?Some other form of life could have created us, but I also think that life was able to just "appear" on earth and then evolve in the species that we know today (humans included). Afterall, if you look at the smallest living cell, it's only formed of certains elements and there's plenty of those elements on this planet, it was only a matter of time before the right elements connect together to form something alive. I'm pretty sure that we are not far from making that process happen again, in a controlled environement. Here's a link I found: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s72513.htm

[Ginkasa]

Who, me? Err, I'm undecided. I don't believe the Big Bang theory at all. Why couldn't a being create the universe, you ask? Well, it may have been possible, but that doesn't explain "the origin". That is, if something did make the universe, then what made the "creator"? Paradoxes... paradoxes!


P.S. If there is a god, what "made" the god?



Well, the reason we're using this "what made what" argument against the Big Bang and all that is because, in science, its supposed to be impossible to have matter come form nothing. Everything has to come form something else. yet, according to the Big Bang theory, an explosion just happened in nothingness, and created all these gasses and stuff that supposedly formed life and the planets and suns, etc.

As for your questions of what made God... Nothing did. God just is. Alwats has been. He is the origin. The Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

I will admit that this aspect of Christianity is the hardest for me grasp simply because it is hard to imagine someone who just is. Someone who is above time and the supposed "laws" of the universe.

*shrugs and walks away*

[Ironfoot]

I'm Roman Catholic.

[Rndm_Perfection]

As for your questions of what made God... Nothing did. God just is. Alwats has been. He is the origin. The Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

If God can "just be"... then why isn't it possible for human and other life to "just be"?

[Ginkasa]

Well... Depends on what you mean. According to science, life, the universe, and everything can't "just be" out of thin air. Its supposed to be impossible for something to just appear out of thin air.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing. Are you saying why can't humans have just appeared from nowhere without the help from God? That's supposed to be impossible.

Then only way we could "just be" is if God made us.

Maybe if you are clearer with what exactly you're asking with that question.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Crono]

Then how can God just be there? That's what doesn't make sense. Something else had to put him/her/it there.

[TheGame]

If God can "just be"... then why isn't it possible for human and other life to "just be"?

because that is a rule of where we are.... everything has a beginning and everything has an end, apparently God himself doesn't follow this because he has no beginning or end. Life has a beginning and an end, as proven to us every day.

According to the Bible god was just there... in the beginning he created the heavens and the earth, there is nothing before the beginning, period... so it's no use trying to find out. It's like trying to figure out what a world would look like if it had 7 dimensions instead of the three we have.

[Ginkasa]

Then how can God just be there? That's what doesn't make sense. Something else had to put him/her/it there.


Following scientifical law, yes, there would have to have been someone to "make" God.

But God doesn't follow scientifical law. That's the point. God just is. Always has been and always will be. Any sort of physical laws we have in the universe, God does not have to follow.

As I said, God is the beginning and the end. Nobody made him, he was already there. He is the Creator.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Crono]

And how do we know God doesn't follow scientific laws? That's right, we don't. So... again, I just can't believe he has such "power".

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I have a hard time believing that some explosion caused the planets to line up in an order, orbit the sun, and do things in set patterns like the universe does. I have never seen any explosions or heard of any explosions that cause order and structure.

But I'm sure you've seen an all powerful superbeing that can create and control everything, right? :rolleyes:

[Ginkasa]

And how do we know God doesn't follow scientific laws? That's right, we don't. So... again, I just can't believe he has such "power".


If God follows scientifical law, how could he create everything from nothing? How could he perform his miracles?

He couldn't, that's how we know that, at least for God, those "laws" are crap.

In any case, this is probably where at least this part of the debate ends. Once we get to where I'm saying "You just have to have faith" and you're saying "I can't believe such a thing" then there's really nothing we can do to change the other's mind.


*shrugs and walks away*

[TheGame]

And how do we know God doesn't follow scientific laws? That's right, we don't. So... again, I just can't believe he has such "power".

The reason we know he doesn't follow scientiic laws is based off of the question you just asked...

he was there before the begging and he will be here after te end... he is everywhere at all times and can know everything about every person and listen to everybody at the same time... and remember every singe thing ever... he has the power to give life to sand, and he made every mathmatical inch of the earth.... he know's all that has happend and knows all that will happen.

Now tell me, does all of this follow scientific laws?

[Shadow_Link]

Then how can God just be there? That's what doesn't make sense. Something else had to put him/her/it there.

No, because God exists out of time. Don't try even try to imagine it, because it's too complex for us to comprehend (seriously, it'll give you a headache trying to think about it).

God has been, and always will be. When you talk about an all powerful being, you have to try and grasp that He isn't bounded by limitations. I can;t really describe it well, but anyway...

We can't just 'be', because we aren't all powerful beings. We're born, we die, pretty simple concept. We don't have the power to create. Something other than us, (the Creator) however, does have these qualities and this power.

Something, or someone (God), has to have triggered something for the universe to begin, someone eho is not bound by space and time. You say Hydrogen is the basic element of the universe, an element that forms heeavier and more complex elements, but hang on, where did all this Hydrogen come from? If you think about it, all us humans basically made up of electrons, protons and neutrons... Now, say in the event that us coming into being was just a coincidence, do you seriously believe a bunch of electrons, neutrons and protons is suffiecient enough for the creation of a living, breathing creature, that has independant thought that can feel, hear, see and taste things? Something has to have given 'life' to these 'atoms'. I just find it too hard to believe for it to be a coincidence.

For me, the only explanation is that a Gid must exist. I can tell by just reading the Qur'an. Where there are such vivid details about the formation of a zygote in the womb. Remember, this is over 1400 years ago, hundreds of years before any scientiic knowledge was gathered on this subject (and many others). How could anyone, except the Creator know of these intricacies? The Prophet himself was illiterate, and was most definately not a scientist. They didn't have the technology back then to fully understand such detials.

(I wanted to avoid this thread because this has been done so many times before, but I guess I couldn;t resist).

Edit: Something I forgot to mention about the subject of coincidence. Thinking about it, there must have been alot of coincidences to occur, trillions and billions of the 'same' conicidences/miracles. it just isn't plausible.

And about Earth being in the right place at the right time, and why other planets such as Pluto don't have the same luck, is probably something we can't answer for ourselves. Maybe God left these planets and stars here (other than the Sun) for us to gaze at, and admire his creations. Rather like a clue or a hint. As God said himself in the Qur'an, if he wants something to be, he just says Be, and it exists. Sometimes we don't have the answers to everything, and some things we'll never know. You have situations like this in Science too.

[Vampyr]

Random, you should love how this thread is going, with all the randomness we are discussing.

I don't see how the big bang theory makes any type of sense at all. Let's use an example of a recent explosion that we're all aware of on September 11th. After the planes made the buildings go BOOM, and they were still standing, was anything in some kind of perfect structure, order or anything. I have a hard time believing that some explosion caused the planets to line up in an order, orbit the sun, and do things in set patterns like the universe does. I have never seen any explosions or heard of any explosions that cause order and structure.

You were expecting the september 11 explosion to make a new universe? please. :rolleyes:

Yes... God is the simple explination.

The Big Bang Theory is suspect... things just don't appear from nothing, especially somthing as complex as life.

Think about the most powerful super computer in the world... the technology that build that is trillions of years behind the technology it would take to build a whole new race of people who can think and survive like humans from scratch. And keep in mind I'm comparing building to building. In how some think we were created, we would have just had to been made by the environment from nothing with nothing aiding us.

People say we grew from organisims... where did they come from? Somewhere down the line somthing put us here... I would believe that before I could believe 'It just happend'

We just happen to be the smartest being on this planet, in the perfect situation..... how and why?

Thats what I was trying to say, exactly. Its too many coincidences.

The Big Bang Theory isn't an explosion that could take down two buildings. In this case, you're talking about a very small explosion (it may have killed 2000+ people, but the explosion is very small). On the other hand, the Big Bang would've been a massive explosion, nothing you could ever dream or think of, it would've been an explosion of 100s of billions of km in diameter, releasing massive amounts of Hydrogen in the process. It is said that all other elements (besides Helium, because Hydrogen and Helium are the two most abundant elements in the Universe) were born from Hydrogen through intense nuclear and chemical reactions, which would result in the necessary elements like Oxygen, which would later form Water, with the help of Hydrogen.

When thinking about the Big Bang Theory, it is much more complex than just a regular explosion like you've seen on tv or in movies. This type of explosion would probably wipe out our solar system in a matter of minutes, and like I said, it would release HUGE amounts energy through fusion and/or fission processes. Now, as far as I know, there is no theory on how the explosion actually ccured. I may be wrong, however. But the point I am trying to make is that the Big Bang Theory is much more complex than what you may believe, and because you don't understand the complex nature of physics, you, and many others, will shrug the Big Bang Theory as simply being impossible.

Good explanation. Thanks for setting him straight with your knowledge.

I hate infinites and paradoxs, no matter how fun they are to talk about. "There are infinite real numbers between 1 and 2... and also between 6 and 1,000. Therefor, there are the same amount of numbers between both sets". Yes, by doubling infinite, you get infinite... it... makes me... angry!! *smashy smashy*

I think its brilliantly interesting.

But seriously, understanding the universe and creation is out of a Gaming Forum's league.

ROFL! Thats hilarious.

P.S. If there is a god, what "made" the god?

How the hell am I supposed to know?? lol, seriously, I have a perfect explanation: "At some point in time, God just WAS" Its impossible for humans to concieve how god came to be, because he didnt "come to be." He has been alive for an eternity, which is impossible for our brains to understand.

(Im just going to use crono's quote to sum up all the quotes about Gods existance, it would take to long to quote everyone of them)
Then how can God just be there? That's what doesn't make sense. Something else had to put him/her/it there.

Why? I dont get why its so hard to understand that God just was. Like Ginkasa has been saying, he is the beginning. He is Alpha, there was no one before him to create him, like I have said over and over, God just was.

No, because God exists out of time. Don't try even try to imagine it, because it's too complex for us to comprehend (seriously, it'll give you a headache trying to think about it).

God has been, and always will be. When you talk about an all powerful being, you have to try and grasp that He isn't bounded by limitations. I can;t really describe it well, but anyway...

We can't just 'be', because we aren't all powerful beings. We're born, we die, pretty simple concept. We don't have the power to create. Something other than us, (the Creator) however, does have these qualities and this power.

Something, or someone (God), has to have triggered something for the universe to begin, someone eho is not bound by space and time. You say Hydrogen is the basic element of the universe, an element that forms heeavier and more complex elements, but hang on, where did all this Hydrogen come from? If you think about it, all us humans basically made up of electrons, protons and neutrons... Now, say in the event that us coming into being was just a coincidence, do you seriously believe a bunch of electrons, neutrons and protons is suffiecient enough for the creation of a living, breathing creature, that has independant thought that can feel, hear, see and taste things? Something has to have given 'life' to these 'atoms'.

For me, the only explanation is that a Gid must exist. I can tell by just reading the Qur'an. Where there are such vivid details about the formation of a zygote in the womb. Remember, this is over 1400 years ago, hundreds of years before any scientiic knowledge was gathered on this subject (and many others). How could anyone, except the Creator know of these intricacies? The Prophet himself was illiterate, and was most definately not a scientist. They didn't have the technology back then to fully understand such detials.

(I wanted to avoid this thread because this has been done so many times before, but I guess I couldn;t resist).

Good job, Shadow_Link. It makes me posting anything regarding this pretty much obsolete, because you summed up everything I would have said.

[Edit] Attack of the link avatars. sorry about the quote mistake, shadow.

[Crono]

But... we have no facts that a God actually exists. And like Ginkasa said, I guess this is just where the debate ends... neither side can win because both sides do not have the right facts to prove the existence of a God.

[Bond]

Although you can also not disprove the existence of God. So you have to question which side the burden of proof lands on? And it lands on neither.

[Shadow_Link]

Uh, it was me that posted that, not Ginkasa :)

[Ginkasa]

Uh, it was me that posted that, not Ginkasa :)


Yeah. Vampyr, the big quote at the end of your post is from Shadow_Link. Not me.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Shadow_Link]

But... we have no facts that a God actually exists. And like Ginkasa said, I guess this is just where the debate ends... neither side can win because both sides do not have the right facts to prove the existence of a God.

But back to replying. My post basically says that there had to be something to create the Hydrogen, and for anything to occur has to point towards a God, a being with immense power. That is the only facts we have on the matter, the fact that Hydrogen didn;t just appear by itself. The fact that electron, neutrons and protons such as ourselves can interact with each other in different ways than say, stars and planets, which are made of the same things we are. There had to be something that allowed life to be breathed into us, and not other things.

I'm really confused by this coincidence stuff really. I mean, with so many coincidences, why isn't it that some new form of life just pops out of nowehere in front of your very own eyes? Coincidences are random right? Then why aren't the sort of coincidnces that supposedly formed us and the universe still occuring till this very day? How can coincidences just stop? It's not as if coincidences have their own path of thought ;).

[Ginkasa]

Again, like I said, not Ginkasa :distress:.



No actually, I said that one ;)


In any case, this is probably where at least this part of the debate ends. Once we get to where I'm saying "You just have to have faith" and you're saying "I can't believe such a thing" then there's really nothing we can do to change the other's mind.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Shadow_Link]

No actually, I said that one ;)

My bad! :D

[Crono]

Again, like I said, not Ginkasa :distress:.

But back to replying. My post basically says that there had to be something to create the Hydrogen, and for anything to occur has to point towards a God, a being with immense power. That is the only facts we have on the matter, the fact that Hydrogen didn;t just appear by itself. The fact that electron, neutrons and protons such as ourselves can interact with each other in different ways than say, stars and planets, which are made of the same things we are. There had to be something that allowed life to be breathed into us, and not other things.

I'm really confused by this coincidence stuff really. I mean, with so many coincidences, why isn't it that some new form of life just pops out of nowehere in front of your very own eyes? Coincidences are random right? Then why aren't the sort of coincidnces that supposedly formed us and the universe still occuring till this very day? How can coincidences just stop? It's not as if coincidences have their own path of thought ;).

Oops, I'm sorry. Lol... like Vamypr I got confused with the avatars.

I get what you're saying about Hydrogen. Of course, right now my knowledge in Physics is quite small, because I'm only in High School... but I'm just not sure what to think anymore. We can't prove there is a God, and we can't prove there isn't one.

And... the coincedence thing is just one of many theories on how things came to be. It may not make sense in some ways, but it's just another idea.

Edit: Heh, "oops" again. It was indeed Ginkasa who said it.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I'll forget about science right now and think about faith.

If you can believe that God just "is", then why can't you believe the universe just "is"? You (err, Ginkasa I believe... crazy avatars) said that the Universe cannot be, that there must be something to create it... so therefor there is a god. However, how can a god exist without being created? And to Shadow Link... it shouldn't be too hard to comprehend, considering humans were the ones who thought of it!

What I believe could be true (based on the logic of the majority on this thread)... is that the universe is your "God". It fits the profile, I guess. If it was a super being, or whatever, it then would not need to be created. And, the universe already had all the materials it needed, floating on one massive canvas (empty space). What I also find interesting, is the "fact" that the universe is infinitely large (or so we think). If it is infinitely large, it would be impossible to have been created by anything, for it'd take an infinite amount of time to create, as it would never be finished... so forth. However, if it "just was" (like what you claim God's origin would be), then it can defy all logic, be any size, anywhere, never ending, never starting. Then we have to go into those apradoxes which I despise so very much under normal circumstances.

And to Shadow Link (I think...) humans can create life, they may not have a real beginning, and they may not have a real end. Just like how your dreams are erased from your memory before you wake (sometimes), perhaps your previous consciousness could be erased. Yet, in dreams we believe it is the present, otherwise we'd wake up.

Now I'm going to have to contradict a previous post of mine and say that maybe we are "dreaming". Yes, it is quite possible that we are just a collective consciousness with the illusions of our mere thought. And, like said in MIB, "we all knew the Earth was flat, and then we all knew the Earth was the center of the universe". I quote that for a really awkward reason. And that reason is moderately related to Vampyr's crazy idea that we have to "believe" something for it to be true (or something like that). Basically, perhaps the Earth WAS flat until proven differently, and perhaps the Earth WAS the center of the universe.. so forth. But, once people with super high charisma can convince otherwise, the majority BELIEVES otherwise, and therefor the universe changes.

Blah blah, contradict this... contradict that. Basically, since we keep looking far into the universe, we keep discovering infinite space. That space is limited by our majority belief. And since our majority has the potential of believing an infinite amount of possibilities... the universe therefor has the potential of being infinitely large.


Right now, I believe that I am a student that needs to find a job, is obsessed with philosophy and therefor animé, and am uncertain about my future. It'll be hard to convince me otherwise. I don't want to believe more than that... and I don't want to know "the origin". However, I do admit that it is fun to figure it out (yes, I had problem solver books as a child).


Finally:
Random, you should love how this thread is going, with all the randomness we are discussing.Ugh, do you see what it's done to me?

Aaand: If the majority of humans did not believe in God, would it die?

[Bond]

I'll forget about science right now and think about faith.
Oh... but you can't do that. Faith and science are intertwined. They are one in the same. As Albert Einstein said:

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

Aaand: If the majority of humans did not believe in God, would it die?
Of course. Humans fund religion, not God.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Oh... but you can't do that. Faith and science are intertwined. They are one in the same. As Albert Einstein said:

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."


Of course. Humans fund religion, not God.

Funny that you replied to the very first and last sentences of my post ¦¬Þ.

[mickydaniels]

Random, you should love how this thread is going, with all the randomness we are discussing.



You were expecting the september 11 explosion to make a new universe? please. :rolleyes:



No, sir. Obviously, the 9/11 explosion would be minor to the 'big bang.' Which makes it that much harder to believe that an explosion could cause the order seen int the universe and on this planet.
An explosion is an explosion.
Things go BOOM!


But I'm sure you've seen an all powerful superbeing that can create and control everything, right?



Never have.
Never will.
Were you trying to make a point? :wtf:

[Crono]

No, sir. Obviously, the 9/11 explosion would be minor to the 'big bang.' Which makes it that much harder to believe that an explosion could cause the order seen int the universe and on this planet.
An explosion is an explosion.
Things go BOOM!



You're wrong. An explosion just isn't an explosion. You mean to tell me that an Hydrogen-Bomb Explosion is just the same as the explosions made on 9/11? All you're doing is comparing size, you need to look at the physics of the different reactions in the explosions. An explosion from an.. H-Bomb, let's say, is completely different because it uses different processes. Also, as I stated before... those who do not have even a slight understanding of physics will probably completely deny this.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Never have.
Never will.
Were you trying to make a point? :wtf:

The point is a lot of religious people (you for example) say they find it hard to believe that everything was created from a huge explosion (or the big bang theory) because they've never seen anything like that before and it seems too coincidental. Of course, you believe in god though, so I assume you've seen a superbeing bla bla bla before then?

And does nobody else think that the chances that we just haven't figured out how everything was created is a lot more likely than everything that has been thrown about (god, big bang, etc)? Just because god seems to be the most simple and best answer from the different theories that we know about RIGHT NOW doesn't mean it's true.

[Rndm_Perfection]

And does nobody else think that the chances that we just haven't figured out how everything was created is a lot more likely than everything that has been thrown about (god, big bang, etc)? Just because god seems to be the most simple and best answer from the different theories that we know about RIGHT NOW doesn't mean it's true.

Not only that, but it was one of the first guesses. That makes it even more potentially innacurate. Ever heard of an educated guess, anyone?

[Ginkasa]

God is not a "guess." Christians, Jews, and Muslims (those that are truly faithful anyway) do not just go around saying "How was the universe made? Maybe its some divine being called 'God'."


We say it as fact because we know He did. There is no guessing in faith.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Rndm_Perfection]

God is not a "guess." Christians, Jews, and Muslims (those that are truly faithful anyway) do not just go around saying "How was the universe made? Maybe its some divine being called 'God'."


We say it as fact because we know He did. There is no guessing in faith.


*shrugs and walks away*

Oho! Mah bad, captain! Y'mean you know God exists? Do tell me how it is true, all-seeing master! *stabs self a couple times... names the stabbing "sarcasm" and dies of it*

[Ginkasa]

In any case, this is probably where at least this part of the debate ends. Once we get to where I'm saying "You just have to have faith" and you're saying "I can't believe such a thing" then there's really nothing we can do to change the other's mind.


No need to type it twice...


*shrugs and walks away*

[Professor S]

Oho! Mah bad, captain! Y'mean you know God exists? Do tell me how it is true, all-seeing master! *stabs self a couple times... names the stabbing "sarcasm" and dies of it*

You're missing the point. Faith is belief in the absence of proof. If there was proof that God exists, there would be no reason for faith. Faith is truth beyond logic and reason in the eyes of the beholder.

Physics is also not the beginning and end of the universe. I forget which atom, but in a certain atom it is physically impossible for 2 electrons to switch levels. Guess what? They do. There is no scientist on earth who can figure out why everything they know tell them it can't happen, and it does.

There is so much in this universe that we have no answers for. Do not assume that there is no God just because we can't prove he exists.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

You do NOT KNOW god exists Ginkasa. That's bull****. You THINK he does. It's not a fact.

[Ginkasa]

Yes, I do KNOW he exists. You trying to convince me otherwise is what's "bull****" because its not going to happen. Taking this further will amount to nothing more than us flaming each other so I see no reason to.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Stonecutter]

Wow, how did I miss this one?

You see the face on the TV screen
coming at you every Sunday
see that face on the billboard
that man is me

On the cover of the magazine
there's no question why I'm smiling
you buy a piece of paradise
you buy a piece of me

I'll get you everything you wanted
I'll get you everything you need
don't need to believe in hereafter
just believe in me

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
and he's been telling me
everything is alright

I believe in the family
with my ever loving wife beside me
but she don't know about my girlfriend
or the man I met last night

Do you believe in God
cos that's what I'm selling
and if you wanna get to heaven
I'll see you right

You won't even have to leave your house
or get outta your chair
you don't even have to touch that dial
cos I'm everywhere

And Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright

Won't find me practising what I'm preaching
won't find me making no sacrifice
but I can get you a pocketful of miracles
if you promise to be good, try to be nice
God will take good care of you
just do as I say, don't do as I do

I'm counting my blessings,
I've found true happiness
cos I'm getting richer, day by day
you can find me in the phone book,
just call my toll free number
you can do it anyway you want
just do it right away

There'll be no doubt in your mind
you'll believe everything I'm saying
if you wanna get closer to him
get on your knees and start paying

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright, alright

Jesus he knows me
Jesus he knows me, you know...

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Yes, I do KNOW he exists. You trying to convince me otherwise is what's "bull****" because its not going to happen. Taking this further will amount to nothing more than us flaming each other so I see no reason to.


*shrugs and walks away*

Are all the religious people here like that? Does everyone just deny the fact that it's possible there is no god?

[Professor S]

Are all the religious people here like that? Does everyone just deny the fact that it's possible there is no god?

Chris, did you bother to read my post? It explains exactly why those who believe in God KNOW he exists.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I read your post and it doesn't tell me how somebody can say they KNOW god exists when they don't KNOW. Just because someone has faith in something doesn't make it true. They THINK it's true but they don't know. What if I'm lead to believe that I'm going to grow 9 feet tomorrow and I have faith in that... I don't KNOW I will grow 9 feet tomorrow, I think I will.

[TheGame]

I read your post and it doesn't tell me how somebody can say they KNOW god exists when they don't KNOW. Just because someone has faith in something doesn't make it true. They THINK it's true but they don't know. What if I'm lead to believe that I'm going to grow 9 feet tomorrow and I have faith in that... I don't KNOW I will grow 9 feet tomorrow, I think I will.

You used a bad example... use somthing you already do 'know' will happen that you don't question.

Will you have a hard time sleeping tonight just because you may or may not wake up? Do you and will you live every moment of your life like it's your last? If you seriously answerd the above questions you still made an assumption based off of faith. It doesn't matter if you will have a hard time sleeping tonight if I jump through your window right now and shoot you in the head.

Faith is believing in somthing... faith is knowing. Do you know what you are going to do tomorrow morning? Do you know if HHH will eventually lose the belt? These are questions you have probably answerd already but I'm just presenting a source of doubt.

Nobody knows anything if nobody has faith...

[Professor S]

I read your post and it doesn't tell me how somebody can say they KNOW god exists when they don't KNOW. Just because someone has faith in something doesn't make it true. They THINK it's true but they don't know. What if I'm lead to believe that I'm going to grow 9 feet tomorrow and I have faith in that... I don't KNOW I will grow 9 feet tomorrow, I think I will.

I don't think you understand the meaning of faith when used in religious situations.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I don't think you understand the meaning of faith when used in religious situations.
I understand faith, and I understand that faith is belief in a questionable situation... I also understand that nobody knows the answer to a questionable situation. You may highly believe you are correct, and you may be very accurate... but nobody knows something until it is proven without flaw.

This thread was made to be open to debate, Strangler. Are you going to discount my belief that there "may be no god", which therefor would put doubt in what you consider fact... or will you understand and respect the differences?

Hey, it's that, or I start saying that I KNOW that "God" doesn't exist, and you won't be able to disagree.

P.S. I understand that you quoted someone else, but I feel your comment was also made toward me ¦¬Þ

[Bond]

You either have faith or you don't. It's that simple, and not worth debating.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Hey, it's that, or I start saying that I KNOW that "God" doesn't exist, and you won't be able to disagree.

Exactly.

And TheGame, I don't know if I'll wake up tomorrow morning. I assume I will because I've waken up every morning for almost 18 years now, but just as people don't KNOW god exists, I don't KNOW I'll actually wake up tomorrow. If that's what you were even saying...

Oh yeah, and I KNOW Triple H won't lose the belt. =-D

[Rndm_Perfection]

You either have faith or you don't. It's that simple, and not worth debating.


True dat! Good thing I'm not debating faith, but rather knowledge ¦¬Þ

[Professor S]

You either have faith or you don't. It's that simple, and not worth debating.

And my point is that to have faith there can be no doubt. There is bo such thing as questionable faith. If there is doubt, faith does not exist.

[WiseMan]

People should not believe in god they should just have a good idea.

[Professor S]

People should not believe in god they should just have a good idea.

Yeah, but then according to most Christian beliefs, you are an unbeliever and will suffer the torments of H-E double hockey sticks.

[Ginkasa]

Yeah, but then according to most Christian beliefs, you are an unbeliever and will suffer the torments of H-E double hockey sticks.


Don't soften it for him.

Better:


You don't believe in God and you're going to hell.


Much better.


*shrugs and walks away*

[Rndm_Perfection]

Don't soften it for him.

Better:


You don't believe in God and you're going to hell.


Much better.


*shrugs and walks away*

Yep, that'd be your guess ¦¬Þ

[Professor S]

Don't soften it for him.

Better:


You don't believe in God and you're going to hell.


Much better.


*shrugs and walks away*

No, according to you he's going to Hell. If he has modern Christian beliefs, even he should now that he's going to Hell according to the teachings he is supposed to follow. If he is Orthodox he isn't going to Hell because there is no Hell.

Me? I'm not even Christian and I have different set of beliefs than most people.

[Bond]

Well, for the record most Catholic churches are now defining Hell as, and I quote: "the state of eternal separation from God." Although this is not to imply that I am Catholic, because I'm not.

"The greatest proof that there is a God is our mind."

[TheGame]

I wrote a long enlightening post for ya'll, and when I hit reply the server was busy...

When I get over being pissed off about it I will post it again (so don't get this thread closed) :p

[Professor S]

Well, for the record most Catholic churches are now defining Hell as, and I quote: "the state of eternal separation from God." Although this is not to imply that I am Catholic, because I'm not.

Hmmmm, looks like they've gone back and adopted the original Orthodox beliefs in that area. Interesting political move on their part.

[Bond]

I actually think they went back a few decades ago... although I'm not sure. If I have time I'll ask Frater Tim (theology teacher) tomorrow.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I wrote a long enlightening post for ya'll, and when I hit reply the server was busy...

When I get over being pissed off about it I will post it again (so don't get this thread closed) :p

I feel for ya... happens to me too often.