What makes a hero? A villain?

[Rndm_Perfection]

After the recent poll, I've discovered that I disagree greatly with what some people claim to be outstanding heroes or villains.

So, what exactly do you consider to be the qualities of a hero? Shroom eating? I suppose, resiliance would be an alright reason to nominate Mario, for he has persisted through numerous games. However, with technicalities aside, what are real signs of a hero?

The same with a villain. There has to be more than just conflicting goals with a hero, "evil" intent, or just a plain "evil laugh" or "evil look".

So, what makes a hero so heroic, and what makes a villain so vile?

[Stonecutter]

I agree with you. Mario really isn't a hero. I won't delve into that one any further, rather I'll just list my selections and my reasons.

Heros
Solid Snake - I think this one is farily obvious. He's just like any movie "hero" man against an army, etc. If MGS were a movie I suppose he'd just be another run-of-the-mill deep voiced tough guy, but in the video game wolrd he's fairly unparalled.

Orta - Well, the PDO story is still a bit hazy to me, everything that I know about the actual story tells me she went through a lot and prevailed. You really have to play PDO to understand.

Samus - Samus is a bit questionable. Like every nintendo character she isn't very dynamic but I still think she has enough to give her a place on the list.

Villians
Kefka - Well, he caused armegeddon and then continued to pick on the survivors. You play FFVI and you know how evil he was.

Zerg Swarm - Singluar conscience, hell-bent on distruction and consumption. What more do you need?

[Dyne]

Well, the protagonist goes one way and the antagonist goes against the protagonist's beliefs? That's all there is to it. In a game like SA2 you played as Dr. Robotnik, and he possesses all the right characteristics of "true blue" antagonist, yet he wasn't really the main one. He just didn't think in the same path as Sonic. And then Sonic felt like a little evil minor-antagonist. Funny in that way, huh?

[GameKinG]

I think its "a man/woman admired for his achievements and noble qualities" in something that takes great courage.

[DeathsHand]

I'm not into heroes too much... I guess what makes a hero is like if he saves a big group of people, or maybe a single or small group of very important people... Or something... I dunno...

But Villains there are kinda more than 1 class... There are the kind that are so evil that they're crazy powerful and want to destroy the entire world and stuff... Sephiroth, Diablo doods, etc... then there's ones that are very evil on a smaller scale... Like my examples in the other topic... Wesker with the backstabbing and the human experiments and stuff... Kain is sorta half and half since he destroys pretty much the entire human race, but he doesn't wanna destroy the entire world and he's just evil... Basically like an evil vampiric dictator :p

I dunno what I'd consider the Zerg Swarm since while they are just some crazy destructive force, 99% of the Zerg are just mindless animals pretty much... Controlled by the overmind and small group of cerebrates and stuff...

yep...

[Rndm_Perfection]

Originally posted by Dyne
Well, the protagonist goes one way and the antagonist goes against the protagonist's beliefs? That's all there is to it. In a game like SA2 you played as Dr. Robotnik, and he possesses all the right characteristics of "true blue" antagonist, yet he wasn't really the main one. He just didn't think in the same path as Sonic. And then Sonic felt like a little evil minor-antagonist. Funny in that way, huh?

That's what I'm trying to disagree with. Take, for example, a certain movie about the Western Front in World War I (quite possibly names, The Western Front, heh)... it portrayed Germans as "good guys". That is, they were the main characters... so you felt more sympathy for them.

I believe that being a protagonist does not guarantee that the character is a hero. I'm not saying that the Germans were not heroic, because they were indeed quite courageous at times... but by such thought, I'd have to assume that the American and French forces were all deep down evil... especially those evil American bastards who ended the war! *shakes a fist* ... heh


What I believe to make a good hero or a good villain are much more based on action reaction rather than, "Hey, I'm the protagonist of the game, so have fun playing as me while I kick turtles."


Hero:
Lead by his self conscience rather than other's beliefs so that he/she may accomplish a goal that will ultimately be beneficial for the majority. Persistance, working against greater odds, possessing great skills... all are qualities of a great hero.

All great heroes have to have had great conflicts. The best of men shines through the worst of times. The bigger the conflict, the bigger the hero... if he does indeed succeed. Take, for example, Neo in The Matrix. He's a candidate for a great hero because the odds of his success are extremely low, yet he somehow prevailed. It took great skill, will, and endurance to defeat the agents and... the Matrix itself.

My nomination for one of the greatest heroes ever is Jowy from Suikoden 2. While you don't ever play as him, I find him even more heroic than the main character.


SPOILERS... ABOUT SUIKODEN 2...



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Basically, Both Jowy and the main character are in the same situation as members of a corrupt empire. They both flee and are both put into the same situation. The Hero (Riou) goes to the City-State of Jowston which is fighting against the Empire... while Jowy goes to the Empire and gets a high spot in leadership. Jowy leads a few great victories against the City-State, which you... as the hero, want to win. Right now, Jowy looks like a villain.

However, after setting up the head of the Empire (Luca Blight), Jowy becomes King. Instead of surrendering, Jowy continues the war for the morale of his troops... to keep faith in his nation and continue economic growth. Eventually, he is killed in battle against Riou (in which he does not try to fight back...) therefor ending the war and uniting the two nations under peaceful, yet acceptable means.

Jowy sacraficed himself after doing the impossible... I find that rather heroic. Riou, on the other hand, united a crippled nation and rose to victory against the Empire. Another great hero.

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End of Spoiler



And now that I'm done boring you, it's time for Villains!


Villain:
Great villains pose great threats to the well-being of the majority. They cause mass destruction for the purpose of gaining more power, higher status, and greater posessions. They kill mercelessly, make false promises, or are just plainly the root of all evil (i.e. Profound Darkness or Diablo).

I'll take Luca Blight from Suikoden 2 as yet another example...


MORE SPOILERS...


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Luca Blight's father, the elderly King of an Empire, was well respected (of course). However, Luca did not appreciate the peaceful times.

The Blight family were holders of the Beast rune, which had the power to summon a massive wolf guardian. As well, it could easily be the source of mass destruction... were it ever to be used in such a way.

One night, Luca lead an attack on a youth batallion (Riou and Jowy are members of the batallion) under the control of his Empire. He disquised his troops as those from the City-State of Jowston, therefor starting a war.

Luca then leads armies against the City-State, corrupts nearby Knighthoods, and slays his generals when they prove ineffective. When Jowy is captured, he proves to have a good plan of taking the capital of the City-State. When successful, Luca decides to marry his sister off to Jowy for his services... therefor somehow making him a part of the family.

Luca has Jowy poison his father in a ceremony that admits members of the family. After inheriting the throne, Luca goes on a rampage basically, burning the villages that he passes through. Then, he transforms the capital into basically a feeding ground for the rune, in which the locals are consumed by the beast.

Finally, Luca is defeated by nearly 100 elite soldiers lead by Riou and organized by the master tactician Shu. It was an ambush to begin with... because word got out from Jowy about a night attack.


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END SPOILER



Basically, villains need to be a little more cunning and ruthless than Bowser, and heroes need to be quite a bit more resourceful and courageous than Sonic the Hedgehog.

[GameMaster]

Heroes do things that society favors. Villains do things that society doesn't favor. It just depends where you live.

[Dyne]

Cunning and ruthless are just a few adjectives, and completely over-used in cheap literature.

Well, In English literature, you have:

1. Person against person (Typical good guy against bad guy)
2. Person against group or community (Good guy kills enemies to save village)
3. Person against Nature (living in the forest)
4. Person against Creature/thing (like the wolf in little red riding hood)
and..
5. Person against himself (Final Link's Adventure boss, Shadow Link)

Those would all be heros in literature, because they always save something, whether it be themselves, or their race, or whatever.

A hero is a strong word in any case, though. In today's society, a hero is someone who rescues, saves people from dying, or saves a large group of people from dying. The men on the White House-bound 911 airplane were heroes for crashing it down, saving all those people. That was heroic. None of those men prepared to do that. None of them had the same attitude.

So, in essence, do all heros have to be the typical "heroic"? No, that's what we see in cheap films, books from the pharmacy, and children's literature. Do villians have to be completely vile? Once again, no... you just have to have one of the protagonist's formulas and it will work. If it doesn't work, it's going to have a horrible story. And what's the point of a video game if there's no story to tell, anyways? Modernism! Where the story is mangled up, nothing makes sense, and it flops! Example? MGS2.

The key is diversity, not set rules or trends like being "edgy", "heroic", or in the other cases "vile" or evil".

[Rndm_Perfection]

You're missing the point. My goal is not to revisit the literary term of heroism or epic... (recounting the quest of a hero that parallels the goals of his society), but rather to see what today's youth considers heroism in gaming, movies, and books.

You're list just categorizes the usual mechanisms which authors use as conflict to glorify their heroes.

What I'd like to know is what you consider good attributes of a hero or villain... whether or not they are just adjectives, and whether or not others would find them to be cliché. I'm interested in finding out why so many fanboys claim Mario is the greatest hero of all time. Why Sephiroth is considered the epitome of evil incarnate. Where can a writer stop and be sure that a hero has been created? Are simple oppositions between a definite "good" and "evil" satisfying enough? Will an ordinary action/reaction between a protagonist and antagonist suffice?

Are you, Dyne, one to call Crash Bandicoot a good hero?

[Dyne]

Well, he saves people, doesn't he? I'd call that heroic.

Then again I could be BSing, because I've never really wanted to play a Crash Bandicoot from start to end. Heh.

Well.. Mario's the greatest video game hero of all time, basically, because his series has sold so much over the years. A lot of millions. He's a video game market hero.. he helped revive the whole industry, not to mention all the adventures he's been in. Sephiroth may only be a one-timer because he was so well done. Both characters were revolutionary in a way.

Where can a writer stop and be sure that a hero has been created? I don't know particularily, but designers certainly are trying their hardest, but to no avail, in most cases. But we've seen some interesting things in the past years like Banjo/Kazooie or Jak/Daxter.

Are simple oppositions between a definite "good" and "evil" satisfying enough? In a huge game there can be tons of rivals/villians/bosses/enemies. It's not just, say, bowser the whole time. Plenty of opposition to the hero, which would justify him.

Will an ordinary action/reaction between a protagonist and antagonist suffice? Well, look at DMC2. Heh. The good ones have many different oppositions like I listed out, or not. It all depends on the gameplay/story balance.

[PuPPeT]

What makes a hero or a villain for me! It has to be if FOX news tells me so as they seem to know every thing!!!! :rolleyes:

[BreakABone]

This is a tough one. I think the easiest way to classify heroes and villains is by motives.

I mean someone who is hellbent on taking over the world, no matter what the costs are is a villain. On the same hand, someone who would try anything in his/her powers to protect those, is a hero.

In terms of videogames, I think that definition works well. There are many videogame characters who are neither good nor evil. Take for instance Wario, I don't actually think he is evil, just extremely greedy. Even though his motives are purely selfish, he doesn't really cause trouble to other people to get it. And then there are some whose motives are good, but they carry them out a bit different than expected.

Now onto the author of this thread, why is it anyone who deems Mario, the greatest hero of videogames a fanboy? Or was that just bad phrasing.


I think Mario is a hero for many reasons
-His motives are pure and good. I mean he has saved the Princess' ass so many times without asking for much in return.

-He is willing to help you no matter the consquences. He has saved Peach from Bowser on numerous occassions, he helped Yoshi save his friends, rescued the Toads, restored the Star Spirits and so many more.

-He is willing to help with even the most minor of task. He could help you search for your baby, put out a fire, capture a ghost and so much more.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I suppose I demand a sense of realism. Mario's original goal was basically to lock up that monkey Donkey Kong. That, or to save the princess from a crocadilian king of sorts.

After that, character development was pressed... and therefor, "extensions" (so to speak) were added to Mario's to-do list in order to supply more games. Indeed, every good game needs conflict to benefit its players... conflict which spawns a hero. However, Mario's conflicts seem pressed for the sole purpose of carrying a name for better sales. It's like the James Bond movies. A hero can have an infinite supply of conflict, that doesn't make him infinitely heroic... it just tampers with his name, I believe.

Why I would call one who claims Mario to be the best hero a fanboy ... is because I feel that they are not seeing past the number of titles he has appeared in... the number of conflicts he has faced. I believe that there are characters that have sacraficed more and that have accomplished more than the happy plumber of another world.

[Mechadragon]

What defines a hero or a villain? Hmm... I would say its whoever's motives you agree with. Heroism is in the eye of the beholder.

[Hero2]

its easy heros are the people that win because they win society looks at them and see strength and wants to become like them making them the figure of society and a bigger hero villians lose and become nothing nobody likes a loser so they are shut out and called a loser and a villian
and if the villian does win they become gods and are looked on as heros
ex darkside vs superman the new episodes darkside is looked apon as a villian because he is the enemy of the strong and noble yet darksides people look on him as a god power makes a hero strong and a villian evil
power controls the world

[Rndm_Perfection]

its easy...

Coming from someone who didn't understand the question? I'd think not.

[Hero2]

ooh now i suppose you expect me to read the question posted not on the subject
in that case the one who is weaker is the villian the stronger one is the hero my answer stands as it was

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

i think its more or less the person who has the qualaties one would wanna emulate, but in that way you might wanna be more like the villain sometimes, :unsure: i guess its all a matter of opinion, for example in Hitman 2, is he hero or villian? he wants to save the father, but his job isn't exactly providing public safety

[Rndm_Perfection]

I'm not asking for a definition of the word hero, but rather what you believe makes a good hero... one you'd want to hear more about.

Some people choose Cloud from FFVII as the best hero of all time. Why? It's not simply because of the definition of a hero. Saying that "heroes do good things" does not explain why people like Cloud, Mario, or Link.

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

true, but its just the same how you might view sumone as a hero, for example i think that the main character in Hitman (don't know his name), is a hero, he does what he has to, and i think thats something worth emulating, and thats what i believe makes a "good" hero, so its not just "a" definition, its my definition, and anything that falls under it makes a "good" hero IMO