Don't believe in God? Why not? [Archive]

Xantar

02-04-2002, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Ugh... if you haven't experimented with somthing yourself, how can you prove somthing?

You have a hypotesis.... you've made predictions, but you haven't tested them. 2 out of 4 steps.

Now, tell me again, why don't you believe in God?

You're making a tautological argument. Look over my post again. I never said that I could prove that God doesn't exist. I only said that it can't be proven to my satisfaction that He does.

Besides, you applied the scientific method the wrong way. A hypothesis in this case would be something like, "There is some being called God who is all powerful and all knowing. Furthermore, God has at some point in time and perhaps still does intervene in the universe."

The second point is crucial. After all, it's one thing to believe God exists. However, people who believe in God also believe that He has taken action sometime, if only to create the universe. I don't think anybody believes God exists but has for all eternity just been sitting around doing nothing while the universe did its own thing. If you do, then the argument is absolutely pointless since there's no way of looking at the universe for evidence of God's existence.

So, if he has taken some kind of action, that means there is something in the universe that can only be explained by the statement "an all powerful, all knowing being called God did it."

And that's where we come around again to the original quandary. Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not. You believe there is. And that's why you can't perform an experiment. In order to get results, you'd have to examine every single thing in the universe to determine whether or not you can explain it with a coherent theory that does not include God. You obviously can't do that.

You'll be tempted to say, "Well, then how did the universe get started?" or "How did the particles that make us up come into existence?" or something like that. And my answer is that I don't know. But a thousand years ago, we didn't know why things fall either. Today, we now have the theory of gravity. I believe that if the human race survives long enough, we will eventually have a sensible theory that explains how the universe got started. You believe that we will never have such a theory.

And there's no way for either of us to know which one is right. We just have to choose what feels right.

Drunk Hobbit

02-04-2002, 10:24 PM

My sheep died.

Gamer

02-04-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Danchastu
My sheep died.

Lets all pray for it.

Dear God...Amen...thats all i can think of.:doh:

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by DeathsHand

Going back to a little example of my own, instead of having Xantar do the explaining, why don't YOU do some explaining to, eh? :confused:

That's what the last topic was about... but in this topic, the tables turn... explain why you find it hard to believe that god exists... non-believers defend thier side this time, I did a LOT of defence last time :D

bobcat

02-05-2002, 12:41 AM

I believe in God.

I don't know 2 much about religion, or nothing, but I figure why wouldn't there be more stuff out there??

Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available.

I just think that so much money, time and effort has been put into God, that there must be something out there that can do this.

I also have had some freaky Deja Vu's that I can tell you are Deja Vu's and not made up by my brain without knowing conciously...........

*but if it's made up my brain without knowing conciously, how do you know that you know it's a Deja Vu...........*

stupid subconcious!

I can see why people wouldn't believe in God. With the above in mind, we can't prove God exists probably because we are uncapable of doing so.

I dunno...........flame my post as you wish :(

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Xantar

You're making a tautological argument. Look over my post again. I never said that I could prove that God doesn't exist. I only said that it can't be proven to my satisfaction that He does.

you look over MY post again

I understand why you don't really want to argue... but for me, GT has become damn boring, so I kinda need this. Nobody is going to prove anything to anybody, but we can always argue for the hell of it.

I'm not asking you tp prove God doesn't exist... I'm asking you for a logical reason for NOT thinking he exists. Also, even if you don't feel he exists, why not read deeper into it? It's not like Hinduism, sources are easilly found anywhere in this country. It also seems that you have no path anyway, and you are not even trying to search for one.

And that's where we come around again to the original quandary. Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not.

Even though my I'm trying not to center around the subject of Creation (and obviously you are) I think there is a flaw to your logic.

Right now, NOTHING pertaining creation can be explained, period.

You believe there is.

I do, I believe that a lot of things can explain a lot of things... but how god relates to my life in these time is what make the Bible the easiest thing to believe.

And that's why you can't perform an experiment. In order to get results, you'd have to examine every single thing in the universe to determine whether or not you can explain it with a coherent theory that does not include God. You obviously can't do that

Examine the very thing you are, a Human, there isn't an explination that makes sense, is there?

For me, God makes the most sense because of my personal experiences, but for you what makes the most sense... and why does that make more scientific sense to you?

You'll be tempted to say, "Well, then how did the universe get started?" or "How did the particles that make us up come into existence?" or something like that. And my answer is that I don't know. But a thousand years ago, we didn't know why things fall either. Today, we now have the theory of gravity. I believe that if the human race survives long enough, we will eventually have a sensible theory that explains how the universe got started. You believe that we will never have such a theory.

I guess

When a scientist create a new creature, not an evolved form of somthing, but an all around new creature, It will still be hard for me to believe that liquids came together on eath and created somthing as advanced as us.

And there's no way for either of us to know which one is right. We just have to choose what feels right.

Which brings me back to my question, What makes you not believe in god.

PureEvil

02-05-2002, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
Which brings me back to my question, What makes you not believe in god.

Xantar doesn't believe in God because God's existance hasn't been scientifically proven. How do you prove something scientifically? I think Xantar summed it up fairly well...

As it seems, for something to exist (In Xantar's opinion), that something's existance has to be scientifically proven (Using the method Xantar described).

Once science says "Yep, it exists," then Xantar says "Yep, it exists."

The existance of God has yet to be proven by science, therefore explaining to you why Xantar doesn't believe in God. I'm sure if God's existance were proven using science (And the method that goes which it; which Xantar explained), then Xantar would believe in God.

Until that point, however, Xantar chooses not to believe in God (Because God's existance hasn't been proven in the way which Xantar feels it needs to be proven in order for it to exist).

It isn't that hard to understand...

Tunnelvision456

02-05-2002, 05:20 AM

I don't believe in god. the reasons are a bit personal so I won't go into that. the reason I am posting this is because I wanted to say how controlling and unaccepting catholic/Christian/Lutheran/whatever's are. whenever one of them finds someone who doesn't share their beliefs, they either dislike them, or try to "convert them". I USED to be catholic, with a very religious grandmother, so any defense toward your religion you could passably come up with, I have already heard. I do not try to "convert" religious people to atheism, and I would hope to receive the same respect. anyway, the only religion I could see myself taking up is budism, as it's a religion of love and acceptance, regardless of anyone's belief, and I respect that.

Fez

02-05-2002, 05:53 AM

Personal? I only hope that all god people die. And agnostics. Losers..*

*No.

I don't believe in god, and I hate religion in a way...but who cares. Really. **** this crap about God..have fun. it's what we were put here for eh.

OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart, so just like chill out and say some crap like I do.*

*I love you.

Xantar

02-05-2002, 10:53 AM

Well, PureEvil did a pretty good job summing up my own thoughts (which means he understands my post or has a telepathic link to my head...). I just want to make one more point.

A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God.

Now, before you jump on me, let me explain. You may think God's existence makes sense, and that's fine. It's not the same thing as having a logical reason for believing in God. Doesn't belief in God imply a little bit of faith in something you can't really see and experiment on?

Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too. I believe that the answers to all the questions BigJustinW raised can be stated without the involvement of God. As Justin already pointed out, nobody knows how the universe got started. As I have pointed out, there was a time when nobody knew why things fall. Just because we don't know it now doesn't mean it's not out there. I believe that with enough time we will develop a theory for the creation of the universe just as we developed a theory of gravity. Why do I believe this? There's no logical reason for it. It just makes sense to me. That's what some people would call faith.

No, I don't go out of my way trying to find out everything I can about Christianity because figuring out the existence of God is not important to me. I don't want to sound insulting, but to me, Christianity has as much validity as the cult of Heaven's Gate. I don't go out of my way to find stuff about the beliefs of minor cults, and I apply the same standard to Christianity. Just because it has several hundred million followers doesn't make it any more worthwhile for me to read up on.

Originally posted by Fez

OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart, so just like chill out and say some crap like I do

Shut up. :D

C.H

02-05-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by The Ibrox Fox
This has been discussed before.

So Mods, Delete this.

It gets to personal

Yea, last time there was a thread like this. There was to many stupid arguments, i think this subject should just be left alone because people can't disscuss it properly.

Happydude

02-05-2002, 02:41 PM

ok...lets hear my side of the story...shall we?

i don't believe in god because:

1. IMO - he was invented (made up) by some guy, posobly named jesus, to keep his village or whatever civilized, peacful...so he said "god" doesnt allow to do this and that...

2. like Xantar said, it can't, and hasn't been proven scientifically...which is what i believe in...

3. no offence to anyone...i personally believe more in satan then i do in god...look at all the bad things happening...yet there are no good things...try explaining that for a change...

4. and last but not least....STOP TYPING SO MUCH XANTAR!!!:rolleyes:

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Xantar
Well, PureEvil did a pretty good job summing up my own thoughts (which means he understands my post or has a telepathic link to my head...). I just want to make one more point.

A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God.

So you admit you don't have a logical reason for not believeing in god...

My logic comes by personal experiece, somthing that nobody who doesn't take any steps can have.

I live life through MY eyes... use magic as an example. If you say the magic words over and over and over, the same thing happens over and over and over, and there is no scientific explination for it, it just happens, and you see it. Would you believe in that form of magic?

My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?

It may not be logical to you, but it has more than enough logic for me, because I've seen results with my own eyes.

How does this relate to creation? Simple, it's in the same book that has improved my life.

So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?

Now, before you jump on me, let me explain. You may think God's existence makes sense, and that's fine. It's not the same thing as having a logical reason for believing in God. Doesn't belief in God imply a little bit of faith in something you can't really see and experiment on?

I can experiment as much as I want... through prayer... (of course you won't accept this answer)

Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too. I believe that the answers to all the questions BigJustinW raised can be stated without the involvement of God. As Justin already pointed out, nobody knows how the universe got started. As I have pointed out, there was a time when nobody knew why things fall. Just because we don't know it now doesn't mean it's not out there. I believe that with enough time we will develop a theory for the creation of the universe just as we developed a theory of gravity. Why do I believe this? There's no logical reason for it. It just makes sense to me. That's what some people would call faith.

Before the theory of gravity, what did people believe?

That there is a big magnet under there feet or somthing? lol

They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it. Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything.

No, I don't go out of my way trying to find out everything I can about Christianity because figuring out the existence of God is not important to me. I don't want to sound insulting, but to me, Christianity has as much validity as the cult of Heaven's Gate. I don't go out of my way to find stuff about the beliefs of minor cults, and I apply the same standard to Christianity. Just because it has several hundred million followers doesn't make it any more worthwhile for me to read up on.

Do you know what Hell is? Do you want to go there? If not, what is there to lose from trying to learn about christianity??? Or any religion for that matter???

Here's my personal list

What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time

What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell

If you read it, comprehend it, and still don't believe it, then you can say that you don't believe... and have a LOGICAL REASON to back it up. Like: "I read it, I tried it, and I don't believe it, period"

As long as you don't give it a chance, you have everything to lose, and nothing to gain. It's not like scientists will have any answers in your life time anyway.

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time

What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell

That saving yourself from an eternity in hell thing doesn't really have any effect as a reason for a non-believer to read the bible or whatever... Because if they don't believe it, they probably don't believe about the eternity of hell thing...

Xantar

02-05-2002, 03:46 PM

True fact: there are is a cult that believes things like if people who look at the moon over their left shoulder will be damned eternally (yes, it's also a superstition, but there really is a small cult built around things like that). Should I go read up on the literature published by that cult in order to determine if what they say makes sense?

To me, Christianity and that cult share many of the same qualities and are both not worthwhile investigations for me. I have better things to do.

I live life through MY eyes... use magic as an example. If you say the magic words over and over and over, the same thing happens over and over and over, and there is no scientific explination for it, it just happens, and you see it. Would you believe in that form of magic?

If I saw it, then perhaps I would. It depends on the magic.

My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?

I never said you should. Believe it or not, I think it's great that you have such confidence in your beliefs. But I'm supposed to be the one on the spot here, so please don't start acting as if I'm attacking your religion.

And at any rate, my beliefs have never failed me, so why should I stop believing them?

It may not be logical to you, but it has more than enough logic for me, because I've seen results with my own eyes.

How does this relate to creation? Simple, it's in the same book that has improved my life.

But you see, that doesn't work for me. If the Bible happens to contain something that's true, that doesn't mean the entire thing is true. That's not logic. The only way to logically prove that everything in the Bible is literally true is either to take each thing individually and prove it or prove the theory that it was written by God (or written by a man inspired by God). And since there is no way to prove the existence of God, there is no way to prove that the Bible was written/inspired by God.

Of course, there's no way to prove that it wasn't either—especially if you believe it was written by a fallible man. So if you believe in the Bible, by all means do so.

So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?

Didn't I just make a 500-something word post explaning this? I don't believe what hasn't been proven to me, and as I've already explained, there is no way you or anyone else can prove to me that God exists.

Before the theory of gravity, what did people believe?

That there is a big magnet under there feet or somthing? lol

They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it. Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything.

Well, apply my logic to the situation. I say that someday, people will say, "Before the theory of the universe, what did people believe? That this all powerful, all knowing God created the universe or something?"

Religion may be a form of attempting to find an explanation for everything, but that doesn't make it any more valid in my eyes. Besides, not all religions are like that.

bobcat

02-05-2002, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Fez
Personal? I only hope that all god people die. And agnostics. Losers..*

*No.

I don't believe in god, and I hate religion in a way...but who cares. Really. **** this crap about God..have fun. it's what we were put here for eh.

OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart, so just like chill out and say some crap like I do.*

*I love you. You said god damn hehe ..........:sneaky:

TheGrimReaper

02-05-2002, 04:17 PM

People are gonna reply somehow to this post, but we cannot simply keep this conversation going, without replying to each others posts. We have no new information, therefore we cannot continue the discussion.

IMO though, I beleive in God. I chose to by my own accord, and by personal reasons. If people choose not to beleive in him, fine. I have no beef with you. The people I DO have beef with, are the people that accuse people of going to hell for eternity or whatever :rolleyes:

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 04:26 PM

First everyone believed in many gods.

Then on the ancient Internet some guy started a topic saying there's only one god.

After a while everyone believed in one god and those who still believed in many were booted offline.

Why did people's beliefs change? Was there any real proof to switch from praying to one god to many?

Next everyone's going to start worshipping a bunny with a stick jabbed up his ass carried around by his prophet who telepathic sends out pornographic images to those who believe. If you sinned then no porno for you.
____________________________________________________________

If God has always been around then why did it take so long for people to worship only the one god. Why didn't he say something sooner. Hit the snooze on the cosmic alarm clock and decided to do it later?
____________________________________________________________

And if there are so many planets out there (many with life) do they get into heaven. Would about Mr. Fluffy, the three-legged gerbil? Does he go to heaven? If God created the universe and Earth is 4.5 billion years old, humans only being on it a fraction of that time, did God one day say: Hmmm, I'll create a nice little paradise after this species dies so they can still mingle and drink their starbucks after they fudge up their physical body?
____________________________________________________________

I'm not trying to be rude but besides the scientific evidence which I didn't go into at all, there's just too many loop holes to believe in this.

*What I think: Everything is made off energy. That can be your "god" so to speak. Everthing is a part of everything is a part of everything. I just don't buy the separate life form who controls everything. The Force mentioned in Star Wars seems much more practical.

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Danchastu
I'm not trying to be rude but besides the scientific evidence which I didn't go into at all, there's just too many loop holes to believe in this.

Yeah see, that is how I feel... that's kinda what I meant by "None of it makes sense to me"... at least I think I said that... and if I didn't well heh heh heh *runs away*

gekko

02-05-2002, 04:35 PM

I believe in God. I do not believe he placed anything on this Earth. I believe in evolution, but something had to create that ball of energy. Matter is never created nor destroyed, some something had to put it there.

The Bible is a book about morals. Funny, because a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up. Garden of Eden... doesn't exist. Nice story until we got satellites and looked all over Egypt. It ain't there. Oh ya, and Apples can't grow in that region, so don't think they ate from an Apple tree. How do people still believe in it? They say if God doesn't want you to find it, you won't. Seems to me that ran out of answers.

That brings me to my next point. Religion is a way to explain the unexplained. Always has been. Look at Greek mythology. Back then science couldn't explain as many things. What causes lightning? The great God Zeus, obviously! Now we shrunk it down to one God, and have the same idea. What we can't explain, we use religion to answer. Such as what started the world, and where we go after we die.

Also, in many cases, Christianity contradicts itself. I just need to listen in church more to find them all. One example is how they God can forgive any sin. Then they go on to say some sins God can't forgive, and you will go to hell. Logically, it makes no sense. So you need to question religion. It is really true, or a way of explaining the unexplained, and scaring society into behaving morally?

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 04:43 PM

Gekko has a perfect explanation there. I just hate to refer to it as "god" because of the images that pop into my head.

BlueFire

02-05-2002, 04:54 PM

I believe in God. I believe that the universe wasn't just there....What made that small star that made up our whole universe? I believe that there is something after we have that final breath...

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by gekko
Also, in many cases, Christianity contradicts itself. I just need to listen in church more to find them all. One example is how they God can forgive any sin. Then they go on to say some sins God can't forgive, and you will go to hell.

That's not true... God forgives when you ask for forgiveness, there is only one case in which God can't forgive you, when you kill yourself, because you can't ask for forgiveness after you are already dead, can you?

Now give another example of contradiction.

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 05:01 PM

How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to you on your question but instead of an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Now give another example of contradiction.

How about what you just said... you can't ask for forgiveness when you commit suicide because you can't ask for forgiveness when you're dead...

but... then how can you ask for forgiveness if you die saaaay... in a car accident? Or some other unexpected way?

And couldn't you just ask for forgiveness BEFORE killing yourself?

Edit: Danchastu replied before me :baby:

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 05:07 PM

Damn right I did. :D And since no one reads the last topic on the page right before:

How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to
you on your question but for an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by DeathsHand

That saving yourself from an eternity in hell thing doesn't really have any effect as a reason for a non-believer to read the bible or whatever... Because if they don't believe it, they probably don't believe about the eternity of hell thing...

Ok... lets's think logically...

Xantar has never completly ruled out God as an answer, right?

At the same time, he refuses to read and understand the Bible.

IF there were a god, and you didn't even give it a chance on earth, how pissed would you be at yourself in hell?

think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?

It would be different if you guys gave it a chance.

Death isn't a joke, and I think all people should look for an answer before they die. You guys seem to be taking no action, and saying you don't believe in god because it can't be proven by some scientist who would rather prove it wrong that correct.

It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction.

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction.

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 05:10 PM

I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?

Xantar

02-05-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?

Well, if that's what you want me to do, I've already done it. I read a biology book which explained to me what can be proven to happen to me (and other living things) after death.

The body decomposes, and the living being ceases to exist. Since there is no proof that people actually exist after death, this is a perfectly acceptable explanation to me.

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Danchastu
How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Lemme think, if you killed yourself, it's impossible for you to come back to life. If you attempted to kill yourself, and you don't die, and you (sincerely) ask for forgiveness for the attempt, then you die, you are forgiven.

If you eat too many Tacos you die and it's your own fault, right? But if your intent wasn't yo kill yourself, you didn't kill yourself.

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

You can only ask after... if you ask before God will be more pissed at you because you could have prevented it.

And if you think about asking for forgiveness before you even sin, you don't have a very good relationship with god.

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to you on your question but instead of an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

You just ask. You don't have to have a voice to ask for anything.

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 05:19 PM

"it's impossible for you to come back to life"

Ummm... havn't there been cases when someone was medically dead (or whatever the hell j00 call it), and was revived shortly after? :confused:

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 05:22 PM

You eletricute yourself in an attempt to try to kill yourself stopping your heart making you legally dead. You can be brought back using a defliblulator.

gekko

02-05-2002, 05:22 PM

Why not give it a chance? Why not waste your time doing something you don't believe will result in anything?

Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?

sdtPikachu

02-05-2002, 05:23 PM

Right... well you knew I'd appear sooner or later, right?

I can't really add much from my point of view that Xantar hasn't said already, and far more eloquently than I could put it... but here goes anyway.

[Start one of no doubt several posts]

In chronological order (aand without quotes, cos I'm lazy):

"i'd like to know what those questions are, thats all"

As far as believeing in god, I can no longer find any questions to ask. To me, the evidence I have seen that made me make up my mind leaves little room for doubt.
True, I don't know where the universe came from. But that's about all I can't see for myself; everything else has been more than adequately explained to me by scientific analysis.

"oh bloody hell. not this again"

Can't blame you for feeling offended; it's a very personal topic, and yes emotions can get a bit heated and people may get annoyed at everyone's apparently "stupid" (from their perspective) POV. Basically, if you can't handle the debate, then please don't participate for all our sakes.

"It can be answered both ways..."

True it can be answered both ways. But this is contrary to the scientific method. Scientific method assumes nothing (especially existence of a god). If you can't find an explanation for something, you keep looking. You don't just say "damn, I can't figure this out, must be gods doing". Hence there is point in arguing; the two are incongruent belief systems.

"as for the dinosaurs, their are references in the bible"

Yes, but they are said to be co-existing or just pre-dating humans. Unless you want to argue with a geologist how 60 million years worth of rock got in between them and not one human remain found with the dinosaurs (and don't even think of bringing up that lame arsed "proof" that was the supposed human foortprints found with a dinosaur.
And whilst we're on the subject: as I read them, most of the references in the bible could apply to any number of things. Here's a question: have you ever read a horoscope and thought "wow, that really DOES apply to me?" I find it odd that instead of explicitly describing scaly reptiles ten feet tall who tore people limb from limb it only makes a few exceedingly vague inferences that anyone could dig up if they were eager enough to find them.

"why believe in him....if you don't, when you physically die, you will be seperated from god for eternity"

One of the more offensive posts I've read on the subject. If you read between the lines you are saying that by me not believing in a god I am inferior to you because you are right and I am wrong. And yet this is backed up only by opinion. You have no scientific proof god exists, and you should refrain from thinking you do. Your statement was phrased as a fact. This implies you know something I don't (presumably you do have proof). Either phrase a more polite way of saying this (such as by adding an "IMO") or refrain from saying it at all. As Xantar says, you're not helping things.

"What is the "scientific method"?"

In short - what you can see.
In detail - an explanation similar to Xantars;
1. You take a piece of the universe, and you look at it.
2. You wonder how it was created (scientifically)
3. You form a hypothesis resulting from these observations and thoughts.
4. You test this hypothesis by experiment on other objects to see if it stays true
5. If the hypothesis does not fit with observable results, you change your hypothesis to fit what can be seen.
6. Repeat 4
7. Repeat 5
8. When there is no reasonable discrepancy between what you think is happening (the hypothesis) and what you know is happening (the experiment), your hypothesis has been justified and you are entitled to call it a theory. This theory may indeed be modified later by further theories (best example is of gravity; works in everyday cases, but fails when the numbers get very small or very big, which is where the much newer quantum mechanics fits in; it explains the parts of physical laws that gravity could not.

"Have you went to church and prayed the "correct" way?"

Depends what you mean by the "correct" way. Whose church do I go to? Hindu? Islam? Christian? Pagan? Buddhist? Catholic? Baptist? Protestant? CoE? Scientology? Each of these churches has it's own way of worshipping, to no god, a god, or gods. Which is the correct way? If you believe the "correct"way is in the christian fashion, then: a) yes I have. I was educated under the grossly unfair British system where christianity is forced on people, and until I was 12 I believed it; and b) I am astounded by your arrogance in denouncing every single other belief system in the world as "incorrect". Personally I think people deserve some respect for their beliefs, and this comment is more of an insult.

"Have you read and comprehended most/all of the bible?"

I have read the bible. It's what convinced me to become an atheist. When you say understood it...? Well surely everyione has their own way of understanding anything. When you "understand" it, you see god. When I "understand" it, I see a method of population control. Again, you make presumptions that you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

"there's no way to prove it WRONG"

Technically speaking, no there is no way to prove there isn't a god simply because of the mercurial nature of gods themselves. But there are several large swathes of religious texts and edicts which have been shown scientifically to be wrong. Like the earth being 6000 years old for instance. I simply prefer to put my faith ni things that I can see, not things which MIGHT be true just because no-ones come up with a decent explanation yet.

"cuz like all the religious people are like "I believe this I believe that" and the proof is only what they believe, so it's not really proof, but then someone says "Yeah, well I believe he doesn't exist" and the religious people are like "Do you have any PROOF that he doesn't exist?" and I'm like "Do you have any PROOF that he does exist?""

Many a true word is spoken in jest, DsH...! It is true that many religious people hold their own thought to be sacrosanct and any deviation from this is heresy and would therefore require an immense amount of evidence for them to even begin to challenge their beliefs. And yes, when you say "I do not believe in god because..." many see it as a personal attack on their beliefs, hance they get offended. I wish everyone would just lighten up and treat everyone like a human. If anyone gets offended by my remarks, maybe you should take a look at your own and try to see them from the point of a non-believer viewpoint, as I am struggling to do from yours.

"Ugh... if you haven't experimented with somthing yourself, how can you prove somthing?"

You are now confusing science with belief. Even if Xantar did believe in god and all that, it still wouldn't prove that god existed. To say that the only reason he has that god doesn't exist is that he hasn't prayed ("correctly" presumably) is very ignorant. What if he prayed to the pagan gods? Would that prove that they exist?
Xantar has formed his beliefs about the existence or non-existence of gods through his own thoughts and observations: he has proved it to himself. However, believing in god does not magically create scientific proofs for everything out of thin air. I could say to you: if you've not experimenyted with not believing in god, how can you prove that he does exist? I could also say "prove invisible pink unicorns totally undetectable to any instrument don't exist" and you would be in the same situation. It is outside of scientific analysis.

"You have a hypotesis.... you've made predictions, but you haven't tested them. 2 out of 4 steps."

A hypothesis for what? His beliefs? His beliefs are based (as far as I can tell) on observable facts (that you or I or anyone could go and see for oursleves) with the minimum amount of spirtiual muddlement. How can he test his beliefs? Well from what I know of him, he already has. he has looked at the evidence laid before him, and concluded that science is a better yardstick than faith. What is your problem with this?

"I believe in God, I personally cannot see how somebody cannot."

Well, at least you acknowledge that it's your own personal belief. As far as how I can't believe in god? For me it is easy. Believing in god makes you happy because you see that when you die if you are good to him you will spend eternity in paradise whilst infidels like myself will suffer endless torment. But I have no need of a god to make me feel happy; I do not need an afterlife, this one is enough for me. Sure it'd be nice to think I'd live forever, but I can't swallow that one. I cannot see it ever happening, and I have never seen any evidence of it happening. Hence it would be rather presumptuous of me to say that it existed. So I derive my happiness from knowing that I am going to do my utmost to make my life as enjoyable as possible. That is where I derive my happiness; from the contentment of myself, my family and my friends. Everyone has different things that make them happy; for you it is god. Everyone has a different method.

"Too many questions, and the only way we can find answers is by dying."
True enough.

"I believe in Jesus Christ"
So do I if you leave out the christ bit

" And if Christians believe that other Religions are wrong, and other religions believe that Christianity is wrong, then who is right?"
One of the things that led me to question my beliefs. As I see it, none are right and none are wrong; they are all equally valid. What got to me was the way people kill each other over it, each with the belief that "god was on their side", like the Taliban do. IMO, there is no way an omnipotent benevolent god would allow this; here follows one of my favourite quotes:

[next post...]

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by DeathsHand

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?

If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?

the way I see it, on one hand, you are banking on a chance that all things turn out the same, and on the other hand, you are saving yourself from somthing.

Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.

So why not pay it?

What you are saying is, what if nothing happens? What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?"

To me, you have nothing to lose by reading a book.

sdtPikachu

02-05-2002, 05:27 PM

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
--Epicurus

Even if I could believe in a god, the atrocities that he lets humans commit would lead me to believe he was not worth worshipping.

"Dunandan, there is no way in explaining anything that counters what people think. If someone thinks a tree cant just magicly appear and you say "Well I think God can make a measly tree," you still havent answred, because In their opinion god dose not exist.

Plus it dosnt help to state your opinion trying to answer either becase thats IYO."

Precisely. It all comes down to what you believe. And what right do you have to assert that your opinion is more valid than someone elses? This is arrogant, ignorant and derogatory.

"Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not."

An answer to your question? That's what I believe too. AFAICS, there is nothing I have ever seen in my 21 years that shows beyond reasonable doubt that there is an all-powerful being who can control or create at whim. End of story.

"explain why you find it hard to believe that god exists"

Not just hard... all but impossible for me I'm afraid. To make me believe in god would mean I would have to forget almost everything I've learned over (at least) the past 8 years. As far as explanations go, I think I have done that more than enough.

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available."

Actually there is. They were made by humans. Scaled experiments have shown that the pyramids can be built using huge labour forces and the advanced enginerring techniques they possessed. Experiments also show that the Easter Island heads are not only possibly made by humans, but actually show evidence of it. Pollen analysis shows that the inhabitants of Easter Island decimated their trees in order to make and manouvre these statues. There are even half-carved out hunks of rock stuck in the quarries.

"I just think that so much money, time and effort has been put into God, that there must be something out there that can do this."

? Explain please.

"I also have had some freaky Deja Vu's that I can tell you are Deja Vu's and not made up by my brain without knowing conciously"

Prove it. I don't doubt that you've had déja vu's (I have too) but you have no way of knowing if they are your head playing tricks on you or not. Memory is not the most reliable of records. Seems quite easy to me to see how your brain can just make you think you've seen/done/felt something before.

"I'm asking you for a logical reason for NOT thinking he exists."

He's already given it about three times. How many times will he have to say it? HE DOES NOT SEE ANY LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD and therefore doesn't see why he should.

"Also, even if you don't feel he exists, why not read deeper into it?"

So maybe Xantar hasn't. So what? He's explained it satisfactorily to himself. To turn the tables again, I wonder if you have studied the thinking behind atheism and agnosticism in depth? To suggest Xantar study your beliefs whilst you show such a flagrant disrespect of his (although you may not see it, as it is from your point of view only) is rude.

"It also seems that you have no path anyway, and you are not even trying to search for one."

Presumably, like me, because he doesn't feel that he has to.

"Right now, NOTHING pertaining creation can be explained, period."

We can prove that the earth is a fair bit older than 6000 years, and that the universe is expanding and that their are background traces of an explosion in the form of high energy microwave radiation at the edge of the universe. Just because not every aspect of how the universe formed can be scientifically explained doean't mean that there is no scientific explanation.

"...is what make the Bible the easiest thing to believe."

You may say that a drunken man is more happy than a sober one. But it doesn't make the drunken man any better. I agree, the bible is by far the easiest thing to believe. I just don't believe it.

"Examine the very thing you are, a Human, there isn't an explination that makes sense, is there?"

Yes

"...but for you what makes the most sense... and why does that make more scientific sense to you?"

Science, plain and simple. It's what I can see - and that makes more sense to me than someone telling me that the world is governed by an existential deity with total control over us. Why does science make more scientific sense to me? Isn't this a bit if a silly question?

"When a scientist create a new creature, not an evolved form of somthing, but an all around new creature, It will still be hard for me to believe that liquids came together on eath and created somthing as advanced as us."

How are we meant to "create" a new creature? By recombining DNA that already exists. This is what happened with life overall. We just don't know enough about DNA in order to do this yet.

"What makes you not believe in god."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGH!
The way that (to me) there is not one iota of evidence for the existence of a god, whereas science produces a plethora of explanations for virtually every known natural process as well as hundreds of unnatural ones.

"It isn't that hard to understand..."

Thank you, PureEvil.

"I don't believe in god. the reasons are a bit personal so I won't go into that. the reason I am posting this is because I wanted to say how controlling and unaccepting catholic/Christian/Lutheran/whatever's are. whenever one of them finds someone who doesn't share their beliefs, they either dislike them, or try to "convert them". I USED to be catholic, with a very religious grandmother, so any defense toward your religion you could passably come up with, I have already heard. I do not try to "convert" religious people to atheism, and I would hope to receive the same respect. anyway, the only religion I could see myself taking up is budism, as it's a religion of love and acceptance, regardless of anyone's belief, and I respect that."

Wow. Respect, man! I too am annoyed with what I see as controlling aspects of religion. I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god (just as I don't presuppose that you shouldn't believe in a god, I don't think people should tell me what to think either), and the way that so many religions look down on (and in many instances kill) those who do not share their opinions.
I too repect buddhism for being probably the only religion I have studied which preaches tolerance and acceptance above all.

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
--Dalai Lama

"OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart"

Now now Fez, calm down. Xantar is just expressing an opinion as well as he can so he can best explain his beliefs to others.

"A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God."

Precisely.

"Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too."

Yup, it certainly does. Like he says, we just place it in different things to you.

"My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?"

My belief has never failed me either.

"So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?"

For the last freaking time... A TOTAL LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO HIS EXISTENCE.

"I can experiment as much as I want... through prayer... (of course you won't accept this answer)"

So you have just admitted that you are closed minded and are only prepared to see what your prayer leads you to see. Am I correct, or do I misinterpret?

"They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it."

Wrong. They just accepted that things fall and forgot about it. They didn't care how it worked.

"Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything."

And, in my opinion, failing dismally as far as logical thought goes.

"Do you know what Hell is?"

I imagine Xantar does know what hell is, in your sense of it anyway. But as far as I'm concerned I'm not going there, and again I think it arrogant and rude of you to tell him that he is. I don't believe it exists, so why should it worry me?

"What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time
What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell"

So the minute he reads it he'll be so overwhelend he'll eventaully see the "real truth"?

I've read it, I've tried it and I don't believe it, period.

As long as every question is answered by the word "God," scientific inquiry is simply impossible.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

gekko

02-05-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
If you eat too many Tacos you die and it's your own fault, right? But if your intent wasn't yo kill yourself, you didn't kill yourself.

Well your intent when you commit suicide is rarely to kill yourself. It's to get out of the ****ty life you have. To be free from your problems, to find a better life. It's not exactly to kill yourself, it's to find happiness. And don't we all eat tacos to find happiness?

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

I love how Christians think they are perfect, and everyone else is going to hell. What happened to a loving god who loved everyone? You saying all Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, Confuciousists, and all the people who never knew of religion will burn in hell. You can tell they made this crap up during a time when everyone thought they were the supreme being.

You can only ask after... if you ask before God will be more pissed at you because you could have prevented it.

And you couldn't prevent eating tacos?

gekko

02-05-2002, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?

If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?

the way I see it, on one hand, you are banking on a chance that all things turn out the same, and on the other hand, you are saving yourself from somthing.

Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.

So why not pay it?

What you are saying is, what if nothing happens? What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?"

To me, you have nothing to lose by reading a book.

Life insurance is not for you personally. It's for your family after you die. Have you seen the nice little catalog they got when you die? Caskets, vaults, funeral service, tomb stones, cemetary space, getting death certificates, and not to mention the loss of that person's income. Everyone will die, so you know you will need it. It's not for you, it's for your family. And if you've ever seen the price it costs when someone died, you would want your family to have it if you died.

gekko

02-05-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
"What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time
What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell"

So the minute he reads it he'll be so overwhelend he'll eventaully see the "real truth"?

I've read it, I've tried it and I don't believe it, period.

Got a point there. I was raised Catholic. Never cared for religion, it's the most boring thing ever. But then i went to a Catholic high school. Think they would help me see the "light?" Ya, right. They pretty much drove me away. The more i learned, the worse the religion looked. The more I knew about the religion, the more I saw the flaws, and saw how much religion really isn't about God, but about society.

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
"Have you read and comprehended most/all of the bible?"

I have read the bible. It's what convinced me to become an atheist.

I hate to blast your posts down to one line, but, this is all you needed to say.

If you read it, and don't believe it, your opinion is more respectable that DsH/Xantar... because you have a reason, period.

You (probably) know as much as you need to know about the Bible, and if you die and go to hell, you know exactly who's fault it is.... and that's a WHOLE lot better than not even giving it a chance.

But I'm sure you probably read it with an attitude of dis belief rather than learning, but who am I to say that... I don't know.

I'd rather see somebody try than not try

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by gekko
I love how Christians think they are perfect, and everyone else is going to hell. What happened to a loving god who loved everyone?

He died when Adam and Eve sinned

Jesus is the savior, God is the creator. If you read the bible, you would know that he has killed plenty of people.

We should love him for his creations, but that doesn't mean that he loves every person on earth.

sdtPikachu

02-05-2002, 06:02 PM

"But you see, that doesn't work for me."

Nor me neither.
I agree with Xantar; there are too many atheists and agnostics who read a bit of the bible and thought it was full of ****. They then apply this to all religion. This is the wrong way to go about it. If on the other hand you have no need for spirtual guidance like Xantar seems to be, why bother researching into somrthng you have no use for?

" The people I DO have beef with, are the people that accuse people of going to hell for eternity or whatever"

My beef too. IMO responsible for some of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated by so-called humanity.

"I believe in God. I do not believe he placed anything on this Earth. I believe in evolution, but something had to create that ball of energy."

So gekko does not believe the bible to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yet he believes in god. In fact gekko, I agree with a remarkable number of your points. I too believe the bible was primarily created as a method of control in creating a stable society (that's what all the moral bits are about). But the bible only perpetuated these ideas (which are part of basic human nature); it didn't invent them.

"Religion is a way to explain the unexplained."

Precisely why so many people find it so comforting.

"God forgives when you ask for forgiveness"

And why should I ask someone I don't believe in for forgiveness, when I have done nothing more wrong than not believe your beliefs? Why am I destined to spend the rest of time in unimaginable agony for thinking different to you? I have no need to ask for forgiveness; by your definition I am going to hell.

"At the same time, he refuses to read and understand the Bible."

You are making assumptions again. 1. he has no need to read the bible, and like he says has better things to be doing. 2. you are onto the "understanding" thing again, which since it's coming from you I expect means "believes in god". He doesn't feel any spiritual need to have to read it, therefore why should he? It's his own choice. Have you read On The Origin of Species? You could call that my bible. Yes, there's alot wrong with it, but I wonder how hard you have tried to understand his/our point of view from a different perspective. Still you persist in you r belief that we are lacking something human because we do not believe in god.

"think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?"

I believe in the lack of a god. Therefore asking me to "try it out" would be like me asking you to pray to Allah or Buddha or any number o other deities you care to mention. This is grossly insensitive to his beliefs.

"It would be different if you guys gave it a chance."

I already have. Not happy with it one little bit.

"I think all people should look for an answer before they die"

I found mine a long time ago.

"It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction."

Yet another offensive comment. I am not wsting my life, nor do I intend to. Once again, you presume that Xantar and I are beneath you because we do not follow your beliefs. How would you like it if I became ruler of the world and started saying that people like you are wasting their lives because of what they believe?
I already have more than enopugh direction at the moment thank-you. I don't see how a god could give me any more.

"I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?"

The more I learn about most religions, the more I am convinced humans have worshipped nothing but themselves.

"If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn."

Well, what a surprise. Again (I've lost count) you say that you (presumably baptised) are going to live in heaven and that everyone else in the entire world who hasn't been is going to die and burn in hell. Did it never occur to you you might be wrong? Obviously not.

"Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?"

Crikey gekko, you should start a church.

"If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?"

Cos it'd be nice to die knowing you actually made something of it, rather than regretting that you'd not done enough.

"If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?"

To me, what I am doing in my life makes a huge difference to my death already. There are things I know I've done and can look back on with pride.

"Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.
So why not pay it?"

Because it is contrary to my beliefs. If an Islam guy came to you and said exactly the same thing, how would you feel? Why the hell should I be made to believe in something I don't believe in? I thought humans had the right to be free and decide tgheir own views. Obviously not in your opinion.

"What you are saying is, what if nothing happens?"

No. What I am saying is that I don't think anything will happen.

"What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?""

Then I'll go "hey ho, looks like they were all right and I was wrong. Looks like I'll just have to shuffle off to the eternal lake of fire then." Thing is I consider this so fantastically unlikely that it doesn't bother me.

sdtPikachu

02-05-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

I hate to blast your posts down to one line, but, this is all you needed to say.

If you read it, and don't believe it, your opinion is more respectable that DsH/Xantar... because you have a reason, period.

You (probably) know as much as you need to know about the Bible, and if you die and go to hell, you know exactly who's fault it is.... and that's a WHOLE lot better than not even giving it a chance.

But I'm sure you probably read it with an attitude of dis belief rather than learning, but who am I to say that... I don't know.

I'd rather see somebody try than not try

Blimey, here we go again. You are assuming that I read it from a standpoint of disbelief. You are wrong. I read it to confirm my flagging beliefs that god really did exist. Yes, I looked to it for guidance. It pushed me away - I read it, and I understood it, and I couldn't believe I had been so stupid as to think that all that was true. I went to the bible in time of need, when my very beliefs were at stake, and it wasn't even able to stand up to the qeuries of a 12 year old.

Result? Goodbye god.

sdtPikachu

02-05-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

He died when Adam and Eve sinned

Jesus is the savior, God is the creator. If you read the bible, you would know that he has killed plenty of people.

We should love him for his creations, but that doesn't mean that he loves every person on earth.

Including all the thousands of innocent (by my definition anyway) peopel who are senselessly killed every day? Either by war, or disease, or starvation?

Again you state your belief in the exisence of god as fact. Again you presume the arrogant position that you are more right than we are.

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, it's just that I don't seem to be able to get through to you how offesnive some of your remarks are.

gekko

02-05-2002, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
You (probably) know as much as you need to know about the Bible, and if you die and go to hell, you know exactly who's fault it is.... and that's a WHOLE lot better than not even giving it a chance.

But I'm sure you probably read it with an attitude of dis belief rather than learning, but who am I to say that... I don't know.

I'd rather see somebody try than not try

So what if you spent your whole life trying to follow Jesus and you still go to hell? You believe that an afterlife exists, and you accept it as fact. But in reality, we don't know if it does, and we don't know if it doesn't.

For all you know, satan could've taken the form of Jesus, and you spent your whole life worshipping him, and now you'll be stuck in hell.

In all honesty, if you believe in the ways of Christianity, and you don't try, it might be a hard thing to imagine. It's like you're choosing a life in hell. But you need to remember some people don't believe, and to them, giving it a chance is a waste of time. It would be like me praying east everyday. I don't think it does any good, so why bother doing it?

And even if heaven and hell are real, and you believe in them, who says you need to be a certain religion, or read a certain book to get into heaven? Who says you can't just be a decent human being and not get into heaven? If you believe in God, but don't follow any organized religion, are you really going to hell? I mean, the 10 commandments are basically moral standards. You don't need to be Christian to honor your parents, not kill, steal, commit adultery. You're basically saying unless you belong to this social group, God will throw you in hell.

Look at all the extremists out there. A lot more than just muslim. Tons of Christian extremists. You really think they belong in heaven more than an athiest? I know people who don't care for religion, but live by much higher moral standards than these people who call themself Christians.

Personally, I think Christianity is screwed up. Even if I believe there is a God and an afterlife, should I spend my entire life as a part of something I feel is utter crap?

BigJustinW

02-05-2002, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu

Blimey, here we go again. You are assuming that I read it from a standpoint of disbelief.

But I'm sure you probably read it with an attitude of dis belief rather than learning, but who am I to say that... I don't know.

Again you state your belief in the exisence of god as fact. Again you presume the arrogant position that you are more right than we are.

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, it's just that I don't seem to be able to get through to you how offesnive some of your remarks are.

What?

Offensive???

If someone asks me a question about God, I'm going to answer it as if it were fact... and there is nothing you can do about it.

If someone asks me a question about creation Etc... I will not state it as fact.

And what's with your long ass posts, 99% of the stuff you replied to wasn't even aimed at you.

bobcat

02-05-2002, 08:13 PM

Is anybody going to argue my point?

PLease i want to be proven wrong, even if it means I don't look transparent on the forums.....:unsure:

DeathsHand

02-05-2002, 08:35 PM

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available"

I saw this show about the pyramids (Egyptian history is like one of the few kinds I actually find interesting :p) where like... from the tools available at the time... or something... they constructed this little thing which had to do with efficiency and stuff I guess, and it made it so just like a few people could lift this big block enough to get some support under it and then lift it up one more "level"...

and there was also this theory that there was like a system of ramps or something wrapping up around the pyramids...

but I dunno fo sho...

As for the big heads... I dunno... what's so... god....like.... about them? heh heh...

As for Deja Vu... I've also had times where something had happened and I was like 100% sure that it had happened before...

I dunno... the human mind isn't perfect or nutin, it could just be a weird trick...

I've had some major deja vu in school where the teacher said something and I was like "Whoa, I coulda sworn we learned this like last year :eek:" ;)

Drunk Hobbit

02-05-2002, 08:57 PM

I watched a program on how the Easter Island heads were made...interesting it was.

I get Deja Vu to a point where I get confused between dreams and reality. Weird...in a fun yet annoying way.

nWoCHRISnWo

02-05-2002, 09:19 PM

I don't believe in god because I (as well as pretty much everyone else I know) don't believe in stuff until it can be proven. People use the argument "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T a god, can you?" and I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real. Like I said hundreds of times before, if you're going to believe something that can't be scientifically proven just because it makes sense to you and your prayers have come true, then you'd have to try every single religion to see if you were right. Christians here, have you tried every single religion? I already know the answer is no, because it's probably impossible to try EVERY religion, so saying it makes sense is irrelevant when you haven't tried to see if other religions make sense.

Which brings me to my next point, there are so many religions, and they all thing they're right. I mean, seriously, just look at it this way, you're just one of the millions who has an opinion which is different that millions of others, and you think you're right? The odds aren't great, and if you haven't tried all the religions, you have no clue as to what one you think is right for you if you want to be religious.

Anyhoo, I think god is jusy a fairy tale that has made it big. I mean, just think about a person who controls everything anybody does and lives in a place we don't know of/can't see. until we're dead... LMAO, when you can find me proof that controlling millions of people is possible, maybe I'll believe it then.

And of course, there's the question who made god? Nobody has ever answered that in a way where it makes any sense at all, so nobody should have a reason to believe he's real.

And who's ever seen god? Has anyone ever taken a picture of god?

Annnnnnd isn't it convenient that almost everything that has to do with proving god is real happens after you die? Of course nobody can prove he's not real when you say we have to die first to make sure. People have been dead and then came alive before, so couldn't they tell us if they saw god?

But above all: If god wanted me to know he was real, he would do so. He created us all, right? So if he created us, why don't we automatically know he's real? He would have just made it an unarguable fact, like saying wood comes from trees, etc.

manasecret

02-06-2002, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by BigJustinW
Jesus is the savior, God is the creator. If you read the bible, you would know that he has killed plenty of people.

We should love him for his creations, but that doesn't mean that he loves every person on earth.

I don't know what religion you follow, but I know Catholicism says that God loves every human unconditionally and forever. Just studying a bit of the Gospels with Jesus and you realize the people Jesus (or God as Catholics believe) hung out with were sinners and whores and stuff. Because he was a sinner himself? Obviously not, but because he (or God) loves them and always will and realizes they simply need guidance.

This is not to say I'm Catholic, just that while going to Catholic school you learn quite a bit.

db

LeonMagnolis

02-06-2002, 12:18 AM

I feel like disecting a post-- I choose..... :: Points to gangsta thug boy :: Chis.

I don't believe in god because I (as well as pretty much everyone else I know) don't believe in stuff until it can be proven. People use the argument "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T a god, can you?" and I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real. Like I said hundreds of times before, if you're going to believe something that can't be scientifically proven just because it makes sense to you and your prayers have come true, then you'd have to try every single religion to see if you were right.

I just want to say that I've looked at many other religions and found flaws-- small things that go wrong. I, myself, am a Christain, and I believe in what I believe because of the facts I know about the Bible and God.

~I know that the Bible has never been wrong. If you compare the origional biblical transcripts with other accepted historical documents, you will find no extraordinary contradictions. Every Biblical city has been located, most every biblical personality has been accounted for in other historical documents, and as far as we know, it contains pure fact. I have yet to see any discovery that mankind has made contradict the bible's teaching.

~I know that the Bible has no in context contradictions in it's origional manuscripts. If you read through the Bible, you will find that in the origional documents, there are no contradictions and no overlaps anywhere. If anyone in here has found one, I'd like to see it-- but aside from that, there are no overlaps.

~I know that the Bible's teachings are invaluable. If anyone would like to debate this, then look in-- leviticus, I believe it was, in the old testiment law. You'll find laws for cleanliness. Take a moment to reflect on the affects that the laws would have on our culture if we followed them today. STD's would be rare, if not nonexistant, Food poisoning would be nearly gone, and this is only the beginning of the benifits.

I haven't tried every religion, but I've studied the bible, Read up on it's backround, compared it with other books, and found it to be the most logical one out there.

Anyhoo, I think god is jusy a fairy tale that has made it big. I mean, just think about a person who controls everything anybody does and lives in a place we don't know of/can't see. until we're dead... LMAO, when you can find me proof that controlling millions of people is possible, maybe I'll believe it then.

A place that we don't know of? Odd. If you didn't know if it, then how can you speak of it? Just a thought.

Can't see? I can't see air. A simple arguement indeed, but it seems to do the trick. I can see the effects of air, you'll say. But it's simple enough to argue that everything around here is the effect of God's workmanship. Please, think about what you say before you say it.

As for the controlling people-- that is simple. Look at the kings and dictators of this century. Take hitler for example. He controlled a country. If he didn't have control over the people, would they really have let him kill 500,000 jews (I'm not sure about the number). Would they really have let him start a war? He was in control-- No question about it.

And of course, there's the question who made god? Nobody has ever answered that in a way where it makes any sense at all, so nobody should have a reason to believe he's real.

Who made the universe? Then why should we believe it's real?

And who's ever seen god? Has anyone ever taken a picture of god?

Answered above..........

Annnnnnd isn't it convenient that almost everything that has to do with proving god is real happens after you die? Of course nobody can prove he's not real when you say we have to die first to make sure. People have been dead and then came alive before, so couldn't they tell us if they saw god?

You make it sound like it's a conspiricy. And what makes you think that most of the things that have to do with God happen after you die? As far as you know, we all go to Heaven after we die and that's it. Have you read the Bible and tried to understand what it says? If you did, then I'm sure you would realize that God has alot to do with us while we're still in this world.

But above all: If god wanted me to know he was real, he would do so. He created us all, right? So if he created us, why don't we automatically know he's real? He would have just made it an unarguable fact, like saying wood comes from trees, etc.

And why would he do that? If he WAS real, then what would give you the right to tell him what to do, and what makes you think that you have half a clue of what he would do? Just another thought.

I doubt anyone will read this, but let me leave youall with this thought. It's an age-old thought from a man named Pascal. This is known as Pascal's wager.

"There are four possibilites as to what happens after we die.

1. There is no God and we did not believe in one. We gain nothing.
2. There is no God and we did believe in one. We gain nothing.
3. There is a God and we believed in him. We gain everything.
4. There is a God but we denied him. We lose everything."

Although there are many religions to follow, wouldn't you think it's best to at least choose one? If someone gave you a free lotto ticket, would you just toss it to the side? What if that ticket had the jackpot on it? You don't lose anything by taking it, but if you do toss the ticket, and it's a winner, then you don't get the money-- you lose it.

"Leo"

bobcat

02-06-2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by DeathsHand
"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available"

I saw this show about the pyramids (Egyptian history is like one of the few kinds I actually find interesting :p) where like... from the tools available at the time... or something... they constructed this little thing which had to do with efficiency and stuff I guess, and it made it so just like a few people could lift this big block enough to get some support under it and then lift it up one more "level"...

and there was also this theory that there was like a system of ramps or something wrapping up around the pyramids...

but I dunno fo sho...

As for the big heads... I dunno... what's so... god....like.... about them? heh heh...

As for Deja Vu... I've also had times where something had happened and I was like 100% sure that it had happened before...

I dunno... the human mind isn't perfect or nutin, it could just be a weird trick...

I've had some major deja vu in school where the teacher said something and I was like "Whoa, I coulda sworn we learned this like last year :eek:" ;)

THank you DH!

At least somebody around here has the guts :p

HAHAHAH SUCKED IN. You got 7000 posts................

Oh wait that's that DB stuff :( Damn eyes.

Neways, the heads in Easter Island are huge (not forgetting heavy), and apparently nobody has proven how they got there.

Also with the Pyramids there's been huge talk about how they were built so perfectly, and stacked. Even with all the technology in the world they could not replicate them

an anonymous voice says*but bobcat, that goes for old paintings, roman artifacts and heaps of other stuff*

Quiet you!

Anyway they had other stuff in this show i was watching about pyramids. Like how the world would turn out in the future, and apparently it was really accurate.

My point is that if science can't prove how these things got here, then who's to say God doesn't exist?

I don't know much about this stuff, so i'm expecting to get proven wrong.....very soon :unsure:

nWoCHRISnWo

02-06-2002, 01:05 AM

"I just want to say that I've looked at many other religions and found flaws-- small things that go wrong. I, myself, am a Christain, and I believe in what I believe because of the facts I know about the Bible and God."

You've looked ay "many other religions." I bet you've "looked" into christianty a LOT more than the others, haven't you? And either way, you can't find flaws in the bible? Have you even read anyone else's replies, or just decided to "dissect" mine because it was shorter? Read sdtpikachu's replies... And Gekko said already "The Bible is a book about morals. Funny, because a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up. Garden of Eden... doesn't exist. Nice story until we got satellites and looked all over Egypt. It ain't there. Oh ya, and Apples can't grow in that region, so don't think they ate from an Apple tree. How do people still believe in it? They say if God doesn't want you to find it, you won't. Seems to me that ran out of answers" No flaws my ass.

"I haven't tried every religion, but I've studied the bible, Read up on it's backround, compared it with other books, and found it to be the most logical one out there."

And what makes it so impossible that we just haven't discovered how the universe was made yet? Science is CONSTANTLY discovering new things, yet you religious people don't acknowledge this. It may be the most logical, but how do you know there won't be a religion started in the enxt few years that is even more logical, or a scientish can prove a different way that the universe started?

"But it's simple enough to argue that everything around here is the effect of God's workmanship. Please, think about what you say before you say it"

ME think what I say before you think? First off, "air" is scientifically proven (you know what I mean) whereas there being a god is not. And everything is the effect of god's workmanship? Howso? I'm typing this because I WANT TO, bot because "god" told me to. I ate pizza today... god didn't make me, I ate it because I damn well wanted to. I kicked a cat today, why would god make me or even let me kick a cat? He's not stopping me from/making me do(oing) anything. If you can prove he is, be my guest.

"As for the controlling people-- that is simple. Look at the kings and dictators of this century. Take hitler for example. He controlled a country. If he didn't have control over the people, would they really have let him kill 500,000 jews (I'm not sure about the number). Would they really have let him start a war? He was in control-- No question about it."

That's different, and you know it. Hitler talked people into believening what he though. He made them think what he wanted them to do would help them and their country. He convinved them that they were donig the right thing. That's not what you people claim that god did/does, you're claiming that god created us and has complete control over everything we do. Show me ANYHTING that has complete control over things we do, nevermind creates people, and I might believe you.

"Who made the universe? Then why should we believe it's real? "

Who made the universe? We don't know, but that's not to say we'll never know. Scientists are constantly discovering new things, right? Right. So what makes you so confident that they'll never discover who created the universe? And we should believe the universe is real because we live in it. I see the universe, it's all around me. I don't see god anywhere.

And I don't believe you answered the question "Who has ever seen god?"

"You make it sound like it's a conspiricy. And what makes you think that most of the things that have to do with God happen after you die? As far as you know, we all go to Heaven after we die and that's it. Have you read the Bible and tried to understand what it says? If you did, then I'm sure you would realize that God has alot to do with us while we're still in this world."

If god had a lot to do with me right now, I would know it. I do what I want, why I want, when I want, and god doesn't cease me from donig anything, so what exactly is god doing then? Most christians will even admit that you cannot prove god wrong until you die and find out for sure, and it's true, I can't prove god wrong until after I die, right? Which is why no can can prove him wrong, because everyone who would know the truth would be dead, so it's just a conspiracy, yes. You can't prove he's real, can you? If you can, prove it to me. And if you can't, and no one else can, I have to wait until I die, in which case I wouldn't be able to tell you there was no god.

"And why would he do that? If he WAS real, then what would give you the right to tell him what to do, and what makes you think that you have half a clue of what he would do? Just another thought."

LOL... What makes YOU think you'd have half a clue as to what he thinks? I've seen several, several christians (TheGame as an example in GT for sure) say what god thinks, and how do you know? You don't, but you said the bible seems logical to you before... Well doesn't it seem logical to you that if god created me, he'd want me to know he did so?

DeathsHand

02-06-2002, 01:09 AM

"There is a God but we denied him. We lose everything."

And if there is a god and he created man so that he could make his own decisions and blah blah blah and he'd be so mad that we'd "lose everything" after we'd die, it's his own damn fault for not making it obvious enough to non-believers that he's actually there ;)

"Also with the Pyramids there's been huge talk about how they were built so perfectly, and stacked."

Well... when you have a ton of people working on the pyramids over a long period of time with lil' efficient machines or whatever, I don't see why they couldn't get it done... I mean, we can build these giant buildings with the machines we have today in... I dunno how much time exactly... but if we can do that, who says they couldn't build such big "monuments" or whatever you wanna call them in a much LONGER period of time with many more people because they had more primitive ways of doing things?

I think it sounds reasonable to me...

and again, as for the big head thingies... I havn't payed much attention to those... The main thing I remember them as is something I kept running into in "Life Force" on NES... :mad2: I'll get you sometime, big stone head things!

nWoCHRISnWo

02-06-2002, 01:09 AM

Bobcat: "My point is that if science can't prove how these things got here, then who's to say God doesn't exist?"

Science hasn't discovered how the universe was built/made yet, but why is it impossible to think that they will in years from now? Scientists are constantly making new discoveries, right? So who's to say they won't make the discovery we're all fighting about right now?

And no one can really prove god doesn't exist, because like I said above in my reply to the new guy, you'd have to be dead first. I'm living right now, and how can I prove god's not real? I haven't seen him, no one else has that's living, and to my knowledge, he hasn't done **** for me. So I have to wait till I die and see if there's a heaven, or hell eh? Then I'd be dead and it'd be too late to prove you wrong.

TheGrimReaper

02-06-2002, 01:52 AM

I can see that this conversation will go in somewhat the way of the last one.

GameMaster

02-06-2002, 02:43 AM

This argument can never be proved...for now...why argue...:rolleyes:
Born agains these days :rolleyes:

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 11:51 AM

Who made the universe? We don't know, but that's not to say we'll never know. Scientists are constantly discovering new things, right? Right. So what makes you so confident that they'll never discover who created the universe?

Scientist have yet to discover one thing on earth before humans came.

They can figure out about a round world, and Gravity, because both things are still around to look at now. BUt how can they discover who created earth?

There may be clues, but it's impossible to make a fact out of these clues unless you go back in time and whitness it for yourself.

I don't that a Scientist is crazy enough to create a time machine either.

DeathsHand

02-06-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Scientist have yet to discover one thing on earth before humans came.

.... hmm? :confused:

"But how can they discover who created earth"

Or what... :D

Sorry, I just woke up not too long ago... I'll... say more later.... :sneaky:

Xantar

02-06-2002, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Scientist have yet to discover one thing on earth before humans came.

Am I reading you right? Because I'm wondering what you think dinosaurs are.

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 03:19 PM

"What?

Offensive???"

Yes, offensive. You constantly assume that you cannot possibly be wrong and that everyone who doesn't think the same as you is going to hell.

OK, have it your way. You, in believing in god, are going to waste your life worshipping an idol who does not exist. You will die expecting eternal happiness which will never come. Your last thoughts will be hoping for something better, and they will never be granted.

Now, that's me stating my beliefs as fact. Are you not offended? Can you not see how imposing your beliefs in others as the only possible truth is a gross insult to every humans right to believe what they want to believe?

"If someone asks me a question about God, I'm going to answer it as if it were fact... and there is nothing you can do about it."

Then you are wrong. It is an opinion, and there is nothing YOU can do to change that fact. It will become fact when someone comes up with irrefutable proof that god exists. Until then, it is just an opinion and you are wrong to assume otherwise.

"And what's with your long ass posts, 99% of the stuff you replied to wasn't even aimed at you."

The "lond assedness" of it is due to some peoples inability to understand someones viewpoint. Am I not allowed to reply to stuff that was not specifically directed at me? Am I not allowed to express my own opinion on the matter?

"Is anybody going to argue my point?"

The one about easter Island and stuff? I did in my "long assed" posts which it seems no-one can be bothered to read.

"I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real"

Good point; BigJ - you can't prove that invisible pink unicorns don't exist... do you believe in them? From what I know and believe, there is as much basis for these exisiting as there is a god.

"it's probably impossible to try EVERY religion"

Not ony impossible, but blasphemous in the eyes of most, and you'll go to hell for sure. <sigh>

" I mean, seriously, just look at it this way, you're just one of the millions who has an opinion which is different that millions of others, and you think you're right?"

By far the greatest problem I have with most organised religion, and certain people who shall remain nameless who adhere to this. And then the whole "they don't believe what I know to be true, therefore I am superior and they are going to burn in hell" attitude.

"I just want to say that I've looked at many other religions and found flaws"

Me too, but christianity had the first ones I saw.

"I know that the Bible has never been wrong."

You may "know" this, but that doesn't make it fact.

"If you compare the origional biblical transcripts with other accepted historical documents, you will find no extraordinary contradictions."

I beg to differ. true, much of the stuff was based on truth as far as I believe, but where are other historical mentions of all those miracles jesus supposedly performed? Just in the bible and it's spinoffs.
And as far as the old testament goes... so you really think the earth is just over 6000 years old? This doesn't fly in the face of historical documents, it flies in the face of science. We can see that the erath is much MUCH older. And I'd say the genesis bit is a prettty important part of most (christian) god based religions, no?

"I know that the Bible has no in context contradictions in it's origional manuscripts."

What do you classify as "original manuscripts"? Linguistic studies suggest that the old testament not only underwent heavy editorial work after the time of jesus, but probably authorial work as well.

As far as contradiction goes... here's a start.

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html

"I know that the Bible's teachings are invaluable."

I think you'll find most people don't argue with this, but you'll know that most atheists and egg nog sticks will see it differently. Persoanlly I see religion and the bible as a great way of creating a stable society amongst humans; it advocates being nice to people, keeping clean, not shagging your sister, that sort of thing, and the it uses fear of an all powerful being to scare people into doing it. THAT is the problem I have with organised religion. I have no bones against the practices of the individual.

Just because religion PROPAGATES humanitarian principles (for the most part -we'll ignore religious wars for now) doesn't mean it INVENTED them.

"I haven't tried every religion, but I've studied the bible, Read up on it's backround, compared it with other books, and found it to be the most logical one out there."

Well Buddhism makes alot more sense to me than christainity ever will, mainly because it's the only one I've come across that does not require a beliefe in an existential eity ofone form or another.
But as far as logic goes, science for me beats every religion hands down.

"A place that we don't know of? Odd. If you didn't know if it, then how can you speak of it?"

What is this supposed to prove? On the surface it seems like the stupid old argument "don't you have to know god exists before you can stop believing in him?" He speaks of it because religious people speak of it.

"would they really have let him kill 500,000 jews"

6 million actually. Ooh hold on, I've got a good quote for this...

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." - Hitler

"Who made the universe? Then why should we believe it's real?"

We believe the universe is real because we can see it with our own eyes. But isn't it enough to say a garden is pretty without saying there are fairies at the bottom too?

"As far as you know, we all go to Heaven after we die and that's it"

And as far as you know, we all just rot after we die. This is a theological question, and not I believe the topic of this thread.

"And why would he do that? If he WAS real, then what would give you the right to tell him what to do, and what makes you think that you have half a clue of what he would do? Just another thought."

Which leads me to the following conclusion: if god exists but does not show us any provable signs that he does, he has planted the seeds of doubt in our minds. Hence some people do not believe in him. And yet despite this, apparently god still thinks you should believe in him without (to me) any beleivable evidence of him actually exisiting, and if you don't you're going to fry in hell forever. This means that you god has the sort of mentality of the people who go around leaving hats on the street with bricks under them, wating for people to stub their toe. Not the kind of god I would be happy worshipping.

"This is known as Pascal's wager."

Ah, Pascals wager again. Try looking at some of the online forums where Pascals wager has been done to death. Then come back and explain your logic.

"Although there are many religions to follow, wouldn't you think it's best to at least choose one?"

Why? I am quite happy in having no religion. I fact, I am much happier knowing that no-one is in control of me but myself.

"You don't lose anything by taking it"

I do. Assuming your standpoint of the christian god, I lose my right to say that when I see something I do not understand I wish to find out what it is, how it works. I lose my right to accept humans on their character alone, and have to judge them on their beliefs. I lose the right to decide how to live my life. I place total control of myself in the hands of an organisation controlled by humans, supposedly acting in gods name.

I lose my right to think what I want to think. This is what I belieev makes me a free human, and you are going to have to kill me before I give this up.

" Like how the world would turn out in the future, and apparently it was really accurate."

So many religions rely on prophecy... but can I ask, what has given more definite and accurate prophecies than science?

Besides, depending on how you look at them, the prophecies can explain a multitude of separate and entirely different circumstances. Take a look at my thoughts on horoscopes.

"My point is that if science can't prove how these things got here, then who's to say God doesn't exist?"

Science can show how men put them there, and has done. So why assume that some ultra-powerful deity did it? It's like me saying "wow, I can see how someone could have made that computer program, but there's no way I could do it, so it must be the work of a god". It is an invalid argument form a scientific standpoint.

"Read sdtpikachu's replies... "

Nah, my posts are too "long assed" to be worth considering apparently. Obviously someone who tries to put their POV across in as detailed a manner as possible obviously isn't worth paying attention to.

"But it's simple enough to argue that everything around here is the effect of God's workmanship."

Yes, it's so much easier just to lie back and not think about it at all. I don't want to THINK I know what happened, I want to KNOW what happened. The only way I can find out is by going out with an open mind and looking at all the available evidence. And to me, the scientific evidence makes a whole lot more sense than the religious stuff.

[next post...]

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 03:40 PM

"I can see that this conversation will go in somewhat the way of the last one."

Yep... sadly enough. Most people can't have an oen discussion on these views without taking it too personally.
Of course it's not made any easier by remarks I find insulting which are responded with "How is it insulting?" instead of "I'm sorry, I just find it difficult to see things from your perspective"

"Scientist have yet to discover one thing on earth before humans came."

?!?!?!?!?
Have you even HEARD of geology? Palaeobiology?
We have discovered literally thousands of species which do not and never did co-exist with humans.

"BUt how can they discover who created earth?"

Maybe you should say "what" created the earth. You have no evidence it was god, I have no evidence it wasn't sneezed out of the mouth of a creature called the great green arkleseizure. Which one of us is right? It's opinion versus opinion. Where the difference comes in however is that science gathers more and more information daily, which lead to new avenues of thought, new hypotheses, new theories. Religion does not do this.

What happens if conclusive scientific proof that the universe WAS sneezed out of the mouth of a creature called the great green arkleseizure was found out tomorrow? Would you accept it?

"There may be clues, but it's impossible to make a fact out of these clues unless you go back in time and whitness it for yourself."

You misunderstand the nature of science. We look at things as they are today, and we formulate laws... such as "if you drop an apple, it falls". Now it seems likely to me that this has been the case throughout time itself. In fact, we can even see gravity forming star systems at this very second. No, we can't see exactly what happened a billion years ago. That is why we gather evidence, formuate hypotheses and eventually theories. We see what we can see from what remains of the time... we think "how can this have happened?" and we create a hypothesis based on this. We then test this by looking at other examples of things that happened at the same time and/or at a different place, and see if that fits our current hypothesis. If not, we wonder why this is. If we can think of an alternative hypothesis that fits the evidence better, that will become our new hypothesis, until we have gathered more evidence which does not fit our current hypothesis. Thus we continually remodify our thoughts on the matter to fit in with observation.

See "scientific method"

"I don't that a Scientist is crazy enough to create a time machine either."

So you say because we can't create a time machine, we can't say that this fossil is 120 million years old? Explain your logic please.

TheGrimReaper

02-06-2002, 03:42 PM

Am I the only Christian here that does not offend people?

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
"What?

Offensive???"

Yes, offensive. You constantly assume that you cannot possibly be wrong and that everyone who doesn't think the same as you is going to hell.

No... you constantly assume that I assume that everybody who isn't thinking the same as me will go to hell.

I don't know what they are going to do with thier lives, and it's not me who makes that judgement call. Because you think one way now, it doesn't mean you will always think that way.

In gekko's case... I said IF (keyword: IF) you go to hell, you know who to blame.

How is this offencive?

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
So you say because we can't create a time machine, we can't say that this fossil is 120 million years old? Explain your logic please.

The fact is, a scientist 120million years ago would have to be studying it the WHOLE time to make an exact system on dating things.

I think carbon dating is BS, they are making estimates, and they don't have an exact system to it...

If you take the fossil to 3 different carbon dating places, you will get three totally different answers.

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Xantar

Am I reading you right? Because I'm wondering what you think dinosaurs are.

What solid proof is there that dinosaurs came before humans.

Xantar

02-06-2002, 04:37 PM

Do you even know how carbon dating works? Do you understand the science behind it? Do you understand how the method was developed?

Because if you did and you still thought it was BS, I would have to conclude that you are willfully blind. I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, but that's what I think. You are perfectly welcome to believe what you will about God, but I still want to hear your reasons for not believing the results of carbon dating. You're right in that it produces estimates, but no carbon dating I've ever heard of has stated that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time.

Neo

02-06-2002, 04:42 PM

Keep in mind that there are other elements besides Carbon that scientists use to date fossils. Carbon is just the most commonly used.

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Xantar
Do you even know how carbon dating works? Do you understand the science behind it? Do you understand how the method was developed?

Because if you did and you still thought it was BS, I would have to conclude that you are willfully blind. I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, but that's what I think. You are perfectly welcome to believe what you will about God, but I still want to hear your reasons for not believing the results of carbon dating. You're right in that it produces estimates, but no carbon dating I've ever heard of has stated that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time.

Theorys aren't facts, period.

Estimations aren't facts, period.

call me willfully blind all you want, NOBODY knows what the earth was like Pre-Humans, and it's impossible to know unless you have been there.... until this science is studied for a million years, and the bones follow the exact same system, you can't make a valid estimation.

The science is good enough now, in 1-10 million years study time, they can find an extremely accurate system, but finding the solution to this will take more time. I simply don't believe that it is even close to being accurate in it's current form.

gekko

02-06-2002, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Theorys aren't facts, period.

Estimations aren't facts, period.

But God is?

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by gekko

But God is?

In my eyes, yes... from experience I have been through, and things I have seen, my explination is god.

I can't change your personal views, because you have a different life from mine, if you lived in my brain, and knew every thought, maybe you would see things the same as me.

I'm not forcing my opinion on anybody, if you don't believe, oh well, the point of the thread is a question "why don't you belive?"

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 05:09 PM

"No... you constantly assume that I assume that everybody who isn't thinking the same as me will go to hell."

Well I'm sorry if you think I've misinterpreted you, but time and time again you seem to state as a fact that what you believe is the only possible truth. And because of the nature of what this is related to, I consider it to be somewhat offensive.

"I said IF (keyword: IF) you go to hell, you know who to blame."

But there are plenty of other occasions where the word "if" or "IMO" was absent. hence I could only assume that you were stating what you thought was a fact.
Even with the word "if" it can still be seen as offensive in some lights. What if I said if YOU go to hell you'll know who to blame? It still doesn't sound very nice.

"The fact is, a scientist 120million years ago would have to be studying it the WHOLE time to make an exact system on dating things."

You're right, and we are never going to know exactly down to the last electron and subatomic particle what happened 120 million years ago. But we know that some laws never change; we can infer. Obviously there is margin for error, and that is why we have to study as much as we can in order to formulate the best possible hypothesis/theory.

"I think carbon dating is BS, they are making estimates, and they don't have an exact system to it..."

Have you made an in-depth study into the processes behind carbon dating? If you did, you would know that C14 dating is one of our more imprecise methods of dating, due to the nature of C14 radioactivity, which only has a half life of about 5500 years. Hence dates can only go back about 30,000 years before the noise in the system becomes so dense that the margin for error exceeds the time period we are trying to date (basically, it will come up with a date like "this is 60,000 years old, plus or minus 100,000 years). But I assure you, C14 will date any organic remnant up to 15,000 years old very well indeed, with errors of only +/- 2000 years for an imprecise test... precise tests can give accuracies of +/- 500 years, or even less as techniques become more refined.
To say that just because in a few cases it has produced inconclusive results that the whole thing is crap is rather arrogant, no?

"If you take the fossil to 3 different carbon dating places, you will get three totally different answers."

Firstly, hardly any fossils are dated by carbon dating due to their a) being no carbon in them due to fossilisation and b) being far too old for carbon dating to take place anyway. Most fossils are dated by dating the rocks they lie in using one of the several other radiometric dating techniques we use.
And the answers are not totally different. Modern dating methods along with stratigraphical and morphological analysis typically provide dates of +/- 1 million years, with really good stratigraphical sequences getting +/- half a million years. You might think that this is a huge margin of error, but you'd be wrong: in geological time, a million years is nothing.

"What solid proof is there that dinosaurs came before humans."

Sigh... where do I begin?
1) Radiometric dating shows the rocks the fossils lie in were formed at least 65 millino years ago
2) Dinosaur and human remains have never been found together
3) In fact, they have been found to be separated by several kilometres of rock containing no dinosaur or human remains which ranges from 65 to 2 million years old
4) There are no human records of dinosaurs co-existing with humans (cave paintings and the like do not depict them at all; they depict the woolly mammoth and other fauna of the Holocene)

Is this not proof enough?

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu

"What solid proof is there that dinosaurs came before humans."

Sigh... where do I begin?
1) Radiometric dating shows the rocks the fossils lie in were formed at least 65 millino years ago
2) Dinosaur and human remains have never been found together
3) In fact, they have been found to be separated by several kilometres of rock containing no dinosaur or human remains which ranges from 65 to 2 million years old
4) There are no human records of dinosaurs co-existing with humans (cave paintings and the like do not depict them at all; they depict the woolly mammoth and other fauna of the Holocene)

Is this not proof enough?

No, it isn't

1) Raidiometric dating is an estimate
2) Humans are smart enough to know not to be anywhere near dinosaurs
3) Raidiometric dating is an estimate
4) This is a different level of brain power. Humans may know that fire hurts, hell, a 4 month old baby could figure that out if it touched it, but can he figure out how to paint on cave walls eaisilly?

nothing is full proof

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 05:38 PM

"Keep in mind that there are other elements besides Carbon that scientists use to date fossils. Carbon is just the most commonly used."

Well actually no... carbon 14 is hardly ever used to date fossils. They are just too old - carbon 14 only works well up to about 15 to 20,000 years, and most fossils are several million years old at the very least... I have on in frony of me from the Devonian period... that's at least 365 million years old.

"Theorys aren't facts, period.
Estimations aren't facts, period."

Who said they were? A theory is not a fact. A scientific example:

The law of gravity shows that objects move toward objects of greater mass (this is a gross simplification, but it would take ages to explain).
The theory of gravitation says that this is due to mass exerting a force called gravity. This theory does not work for very small or very large masses (or very small distances); this is why quantum physics was developed: to explain the holes in the theory of gravitation.

We have no proof that gravitation actually exists. We just have a theory (or rather, a group of theories) which explain the whole thing perfectly on everything of a normal scale (they still haven't quantified all of quantum mechanics yet).

Yet you seem to think that just because there is the slightest bit of doubt that a theory which has managed to satisfactorily explain more than half the universe is not true, then it MUST be due to a god. Fine, you're entitled to believe this; personally, I just can't accept that kind of a lapse of logical thinking.

"call me willfully blind all you want, NOBODY knows what the earth was like Pre-Humans"

So I suppose that we can't infer anything at all from the rocks then? Like the presence of fish meaning that water existed? Like the presence of cyanobacteria in the Archean began to convert our methane/ammonia atmosphere into the one we have today? Why can't we say that the geological and palaeomagnetioc record shows that America was once part of a huge mega-continent at a different latitude and longitude than it is today? Why can't we then say that any fossils found at particular times must have lived in a prticular latitude and longitude x numbers of kilometres from the sea? Why can't we say that because its cold at the poles now it was cold at the poles then, and from that deduce exactly what kind of climate these fossils lived in?

So it's not the same as being there, but again you are making the same illogical assumption that because no-one living today has actually seen it, a completely different theory that it all just hapened cos some dude with a beard said it did MUST be true? How the heck does that happen?! Just because something isn't 100% explicable or demonstratable doesn't mean we have to go off and find a totally different explanation.

Besides, everything we know about the early earth fits together. We can see how the continents were joined, how they moved, where animals originated from... it's quite balletic really.

"until this science is studied for a million years, and the bones follow the exact same system, you can't make a valid estimation."

Then surely religion should follow the same rules, if you're going to be fair about it? We have been studying it for oooh lets be generous and say 150 years. Plate tectonics has only been around for 50. And we have already calculated the age of the earth and how it's continents and animals evolved, and have made several estimations which hey all fit together very nicely indeed. But you're saying these won't become valid in any way shape or form for another 999,800 years? Why is this?

Surely then you should only start believing in this christ dude in 998000 years? You know, when it becomes a valid estimate?

"The science is good enough now, in 1-10 million years study time, they can find an extremely accurate system, but finding the solution to this will take more time. I simply don't believe that it is even close to being accurate in it's current form."

So you say that because it's inaccurate by your seemingly ignorant standards now, it's going to take 10 million years? An entire civilisation can evolve from a single family of worms in that time. Why do you think science is only valid after hundreds of millenia of study? I'm not saying it won't all be proved wrong tomorrow, but it explains it all to me very nicely indeed.

"I can't change your personal views, because you have a different life from mine, if you lived in my brain, and knew every thought, maybe you would see things the same as me."

And if you had lived my life through my eyes is my brain, you would probably think the same as me. But you asked us to explain why various people like myself didn't believe in god... do you have your answer yet?

I for one just can't believe god exists because I see no evidence at all of him ever having had a hand in anything. Why worship something I can't see or feel or believe will ever give me any benefit whatsoever? There is no point for me. I have more useful things to do.

Neo

02-06-2002, 05:42 PM

Sorry, I meant commonly used in the sense that that's what the general public usually hears about.

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
But you asked us to explain why various people like myself didn't believe in god... do you have your answer yet?

That's what the last topic was about... I did my explaining

I for one just can't believe god exists because I see no evidence at all of him ever having had a hand in anything. Why worship something I can't see or feel or believe will ever give me any benefit whatsoever? There is no point for me. I have more useful things to do.

I will not argue with that, because you claimed to have given religion a chance. Everything is a choice, your path is different from mine, can't do anything about it.

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 05:49 PM

"Raidiometric dating is an estimate"

No it isn't. It is a perfectly scalable, reliable and accurate method of determining age. Exaplin to me everything you know about radiometric dating and why it is an estimate, and I will explain to you why it is not.

"Humans are smart enough to know not to be anywhere near dinosaurs"

60 km of horizontally deposited rock apart? Wow, that's very smart; the humans must have either lived floating 60km in the air, or they must have forced the dinosours to live 60km beneath the surface of the earth... in the upper mantle, at about 1500 degress celsius. That is indeed pretty clever. Or total nonsense, depending on how you look at it.

"This is a different level of brain power. Humans may know that fire hurts, hell, a 4 month old baby could figure that out if it touched it, but can he figure out how to paint on cave walls eaisilly?"

So... how does this prove that dinosurs co-existed with humans? How come they managed to paint pics of themselves and mammoths and sabre-toothed tigers and yet totally forgot about those huge lumbering reptiles which would have provided an excellent source of food?

Oh yeah, I was forgetting... the dinosuars are busy combusting at the base of the lithopshere at this point. Silly me.

"nothing is full proof"

You are right; nothing can ever be proven. I cannot say "I think therefore I am"; this only proves that I believe myself to be thinking, and philosophers aren't even sure about that.

But don't you find it mre likely that theories that actually make scientific sense are true, rather than some deity who can also never be proved (not to the extent you demand of science anyway)? It is all a matter of perspective.

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 05:55 PM

"Sorry, I meant commonly used in the sense that that's what the general public usually hears about."

Yep... this is true. Carbon dating affects more recent (and to most people, more interesting) events than uranium, thorium, strontium helium etc. dating does... hence you hear about it more in the press.

"That's what the last topic was about... I did my explaining"

You may well have done your explaining; that's fine. But I am asking: do you understand why people like myself do not believe in god? Can you see our reasoning and our logic?

I think it's been explained clearly enough several times.

"I will not argue with that, because you claimed to have given religion a chance. Everything is a choice, your path is different from mine, can't do anything about it."

True enough... but I just wanted you to understand my POV, since (as you started this thread), I imagined you must have been confused on my/our perspective and were seeking some answers as to what and why we think the way we do. So my question is: can you understand our viewpoint?

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
But don't you find it mre likely that theories that actually make scientific sense are true, rather than some deity who can also never be proved (not to the extent you demand of science anyway)? It is all a matter of perspective.

God can only be proven when he comes back, and even if that happens, I'm sure people still won't belive it. They will have to find some scienific evidence that the disappearances were acctually caused by god.

So, in conclusion, I doubt this arguement will go anywhere, it was fun while it lasted ;)

BigJustinW

02-06-2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
""That's what the last topic was about... I did my explaining"

You may well have done your explaining; that's fine. But I am asking: do you understand why people like myself do not believe in god? Can you see our reasoning and our logic?

I think it's been explained clearly enough several times.

From my perspective, your reasoning is:

"Nothing I have seen or experienced in my liife proves to me that there can possibly be a God"

"I will not argue with that, because you claimed to have given religion a chance. Everything is a choice, your path is different from mine, can't do anything about it."

True enough... but I just wanted you to understand my POV, since (as you started this thread), I imagined you must have been confused on my/our perspective and were seeking some answers as to what and why we think the way we do. So my question is: can you understand our viewpoint?

We both live our lives through our own eyes, and in our own mind. We can look at the same thing, and our minds can tell us two different things.

It's like the question: "Is the glass half empty, or is it half full"

Science couldn't prove it one way to you, and it couldn't prove it the other way to me.

So I understand (I think)

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 06:07 PM

"God can only be proven when he comes back"

Well if we are to use your rather stringent definitions of what constitutes proof or evidence on a scientific basis, even god coming back wouldn't prove he existed.
Is it really a supernatural force?
Is it not just a guy from the future having fun with a randiom planet, using all kinds of futurisitc machines to make us think he's a god?
Could it be aliens maybe, doing the same type of thing?
Could it all just be a figment of my imagination?

All of these are possible, and by the standards you apply to sceintific regimes just as provable as god is. Hence:

"... and even if that happens, I'm sure people still won't belive it"

"They will have to find some scienific evidence that the disappearances were acctually caused by god."

And what's wrong with that? What is wrong with questioning everything? Knowledge can't kill anything apart from igonorance and misunderstanding. There is nothing wrong with wanting to figure out how the universe works. IMO, god is the overly simple and wrong explanation for everything I have ever seen in my life.

"So, in conclusion, I doubt this arguement will go anywhere, it was fun while it lasted"

Well in that case, I hope you've come to some understanding of how my/our mind(s) work(s)... otherwise, this carpal tunnel syndrome was all for nothing...

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 06:14 PM

""Nothing I have seen or experienced in my liife proves to me that there can possibly be a God""

Well, I would go further than that myself: I would say that nothing I have seen or experienced in my life has ever suggested to me the slightest possibility that there can be a god. I guess I am as unshakeable in my faiths as you are... for the time being. ;)

"Science couldn't prove it one way to you, and it couldn't prove it the other way to me."

Well, that's your choice... but from the little I know of science, the world can be more than adequately explained by natural processes than by the influence of a divine being. That is my belief, and there's not much I can see that is likely to change it... but obviously if someone came up with a theory more plausible than science involving a god, then I would have to accept it.

"So I understand (I think)"

Good! I've almost worn out this keyboard...

drolldurham

02-06-2002, 07:20 PM

i say, we all get thrown in a big field, and we all get big guns and knives and tanks and........ rats!! with big teeth. then we all fight and kill each other!!!!! I SHALL TRIUMPH

or you should all just accept the fact that you all have different thoughts and go on playing GTA3.
and if you don't think GTA3 is a good game you are WRONG and you should DIE your opinions are STUPID.

carbon dating has proven it

:hmm:

BreakABone

02-06-2002, 07:22 PM

As always an extremely interesting topic on religion at GT, I think it';s been a whole 2 months since we had one last.

Being lazy and catching the thread after some 100+ replies, I won't read through most of this, but it seems to have turned into another science vs religion thread.

The fact of the matter is I really don't trust either one. I mean they both share common problems...

1)For the most part neither can be proven.
2)For the most part either can be disproven also
3)You can't believe in both (I mean some can, but they basically try to disprove each other)

Well yadda..yadda..yadda...

Anyhow I also find it hard to buy into either since they aren't proven, but all exist in theory. I mean in Biology alone there are all these "If" this happens and then they find something to disprove it or change it..it's all so confusing...

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by BreakABone
I also find it hard to buy into either since they aren't proven, but all exist in theory.

Well, I would say this is because you misunderstand the nature of the word "theory" in the scientific sense. Time and time again I hear people saying "it's only a theory", using it in the same context as "the Loch Ness monster is only a theory".

There is a difference between a genuine scientific theory and what most people understand as theories... a scientific theory is a "rule" based on obervations... it IS substantited and "proven" to a reasonable level of certainty.

The reaon they are called theory rather than fact or law is that science is continually changing and adapting as more and more is discovered or re-examined... hence to call something a rule or law when you know very well that it might have to be changed next week is a bit daft.

"they basically try to disprove each other"

I wouldn't say so; science does not set out to try and disprove religion, although manysee it like that. There are many aspects of science that have little or nothing to do with belief and vice versa; many scientists are in fact religious to some extent. There is room for both of them in someone's life.

Even the pope managed to admit that evolution occurred...

"For the most part neither can be proven."

Well, science can be proved to be true beyond reasonable doubt for the vast majority of cases... that's how our theories come about.

"For the most part either can be disproven also"

What aspect of science do you know of that can be disproved?

""If" this happens and then they find something to disprove it or change it.."

Such is the nature of scientific adaption... if something happens that your theory can't account for, then the only option you have is to think up a better one which fits in with the available evidence.

"it's all so confusing..."

I guess it can be!

The_Dunadan

02-06-2002, 07:47 PM

thanx for posting your beliefs guys. i'm eventually going to go through it and write down the good arguments and come up with answers for them sometime.

chris did a really good job of anwering and i agree with him a lot. i scanned some stuff so i'll give some brief statements...

gekko, nowhere in the bible does it say it waas an apple! quit listing that as a reason:p and i believe the garden was destroyed shortly after adam and eve were kicked out or during the flood, which by the way this story is found in many many more places around the earth in different forms of writing.

i saw some stuff about religion. don't let religion get in the waay of your belief in god or your relationship with him. the right religions are the ones that go by the bible. the wrong ones are the ones that do things that go against it.

carbon dating is very innacurate.

something i saw said believing more in satan cause more bad going on. the bad is going on because so manty people have turned their back on god.

and finally, its about faith. god sent his son to die for us, shows us endless mercy, etc etc. now what he wants from us is our faith, our belief in something not physically seen. if he showed himself to us, physically, of course we would believe. but he want people who believe because they want to return his love he showed to them. btw, who are we that god should show himself to us.

thanx again for posting. hopefully someone will benefit from this, either through this thread or because next time i get asked some of these questions i'll be ready to answer them.

anything else to say you can contact me at dunadan00 on aim. my icq is in myt profile. or you could just post of course:)

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 08:07 PM

"i saw some stuff about religion. don't let religion get in the waay of your belief in god or your relationship with him. the right religions are the ones that go by the bible. the wrong ones are the ones that do things that go against it."

Wow, now that IS offensive. You are a bigot. That was worse than anything that BJW has said. Instantly you've just dissed more than half of the worlds population. Well done.

Who are you to say what is right and wrong about someone's belief?

" the bad is going on because so manty people have turned their back on god."

Yeah? Prove it. I suppose you'll agree with Jerry Falwell and say that the 11-9 attacks are the fault of people like me... not forgetting the homosexuals, liberals, agnostics, hindu's, islamics and all the rest of it? Well I guess you may as well just kill me now, because in your eyes I'm obviously grossly inferior to human beings.

Your post displays a spectacular sense of total inconsideration for anyone with a belief that does not centre around the christian bible. It is people like you who give religion a bad name. Why can't you learn to accept people on their character instead of what god(s) they do or don't believe in? You have no right to decide which religion is "right" or "wrong" merely because your religion says that all others are wrong.

"hopefully someone will benefit from this"

Well maybe all the people who beileve in the same religion as you will. Everyone else however will have had their beliefs insulted by you.

Thank you very much for getting me annoyed. I hope you will choose your reply with a little more care and tact.

The_Dunadan

02-06-2002, 08:11 PM

we'll do it one at a time. first thing, how did i diss half the world's population?

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 08:16 PM

Cos more than half of the world doesn't follow the bible

The_Dunadan

02-06-2002, 08:19 PM

i was talking about religions. somebody said how do we know which ones are right and which ones are wrong. so i said the right ones are the ones that follow the bible. they don't say things like....the world wan't created by god. it happened through evolution. that would be going against the bible. i wansn't really talking about people.

does this straighten things out?

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 08:25 PM

Yes, it straightens things out: you have just re-asserted your original statement; namely that you consider religions which follow the bible to be "right" and iones which do not to be "wrong". Even if applied only to religion, you are still slagging off about three billion people.

I agree that atheism as far as I'm concerned isn't a religion per se, but it's a system of belief and you are claiming that all beliefs contrary to your own are "wrong"

Professor S

02-06-2002, 08:46 PM

When it comes to Religion, I trust my gut.

My gut tells me there is a God. Not necessarily THE God. I believe there is a greater force because when I try to convince myself there's not, I don't even buy it. Something just tells me there is.

As for the rest of it, I don't know. I'm not goign to say that the Bible isn't true, I just don't know that it is. I mean, how many times was is passed down word of mouth before it was put on paper? And how many times after that was it copied and recopied before a definite text was established? How sure is anyone how much has been mis translated or competely left out after all these year?

For all we know Christ was really a chicken and we really piss God off every time we go to KFC for some Honey Barbecue Wings:D

The_Dunadan

02-06-2002, 08:48 PM

i'll talk to you on icq soon when mine is back up.

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 08:54 PM

Well, you'll have to hurry; it's 2 in the morning here and I'm about to go coma.

Strangler; not only do I agree with alot of what you say about the bible... I thought that bit at the end was especially poignant... ;)

Good night everybody... bleurgh. Sorry this is is my second night without sleep and I think I might die soon...

Xantar

02-06-2002, 08:58 PM

The_Dunadan, remember what I told you about your first post? You're doing it all over again. You're speaking as if the Bible is fact. That is not the way to debate. It won't incline any atheists to listen to anything further you have to say.

In a debate, you just have to treat your side (namely the Bible) as a theory and argue it from there, always keeping in mind that some people genuinely don't believe the Bible and never will. BigJustinW has done a pretty good job of doing that, and as far as I can tell, the atheists have as well. You should do the same. Otherwise, you come across as bigoted and narrow-minded.

Anyway, we managed to have a civilized debate about religion for once. Some doubloons are in order...

The_Dunadan

02-06-2002, 09:03 PM

the reason i didn't feel like saying what you said i should say is because there were post in here saying there is no god its crap and other stuff of that nature as if it was a fact. i didn't see them say anything otherwise or you warn them about it. sorry, i'll do it next post(this time i'll actually do it; i'm serious, i will:) )

Xantar

02-06-2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by The_Dunadan
the reason i didn't feel like saying what you said i should say is because there were post in here saying there is no god its crap and other stuff of that nature as if it was a fact.

Actually, if you read all the posts carefully, you'll see that almost every post has an "I believe" somewhere in it. Those simple two words can change the tone of an entire post. The only time I saw posts either way where the person didn't say "I believe" was when he had already explained "I believe God does/doesn't exist" in a previous post.

I'm not perfect, so I won't say that some posts haven't slipped by me. But I've been reading this topic very carefully, and I think you'll find that what I saw is at least true for the most part.

sdtPikachu

02-06-2002, 09:14 PM

If you are refering to me saying "there is no god it's crap" and stating it as a fact then I would like to see you point it out.

And besides, even if people HAVE said "there is no god it's crap", why do you have to retaliate with what you said? Surely you are intelligent enough to see that two wrongs don't make a right?

You have to swallow your pride and avoid taking the sucker punch I'm afraid...

LeonMagnolis

02-08-2002, 07:13 PM

Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available.

I observe the pyramids with my eyes.
I hypothize the pyramid is there.
I predict that they are there.
I kick the pyramid to see if it's there.
I break my foot-- it's there.

I don't believe in god, and I hate religion in a way...but who cares. Really. Fuck this crap about God..have fun. it's what we were put here for eh.

Have you ever thought about what the world would be like without religion? Can you even comprehend that? From religions we aquired: our time scale-- 7 days in a week, 12 months in a year, AD and BC. We got explorers finding new worlds under the pretense of evangilism. The reading and writing system we have today was used by the clergy to teach Biblical scriptures. The enlightenment, the discovery of America in some ways, the Rennisiance [sp?] shall I go on? As stupid as you may think religion is, noone can deny that it has done huge things to shape the world as it is today, and no matter if you believe in God or Allah or Dvjzpurhanwhatever, you cannot overlook the fact that we would not be anywhere today without religion.

You can go have fun, but next time you read a book, or listen to music or even look at the time of day, remember, without religion, most of that stuff would be next to useless.

There's no logical reason for it. It just makes sense to me. That's what some people would call faith.

But there is some logic to what you said earlier-- we've been progressing in the ways of science, and logically, that progression will go on. And that progression may well include a logical explanation for the creation of the universe with or without God.

True faith is believing in something that you cannot prove.

1. IMO - he was invented (made up) by some guy, posobly named jesus, to keep his village or whatever civilized, peacful...so he said "god" doesnt allow to do this and that...

KTHX, TYVM. Now STFU or GTFO. That pretty much sums up what I have to say about that. If you want to have an opinion about something, at least have some basis. And the Bible isn't the only document that has mentioned Jesus. Jesus wasn't just "made up." I know that for a fact, and I doubt that anyone can disprove that. Understand I'm not saying that he was God, but I can garuentee that Jesus did exist at one time or another.

Now look throughout history at the various religions. Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order? As I said before-- think before you post.

No, I don't go out of my way trying to find out everything I can about Christianity because figuring out the existence of God is not important to me. I don't want to sound insulting, but to me, Christianity has as much validity as the cult of Heaven's Gate. I don't go out of my way to find stuff about the beliefs of minor cults, and I apply the same standard to Christianity. Just because it has several hundred million followers doesn't make it any more worthwhile for me to read up on.

Minor cult? See above about the things that Christianity and religion in general have brought into the world. I'm not going to put words in your mouth and say that you called Christianity a "minor cult" but with all due respect-- that's certainly what it sounded like you said.

Why did people's beliefs change? Was there any real proof to switch from praying to one god to many?

Let's play a game. It's called telephone. I'll wisper something in your ear, then you wisper the same thing in another person's ear, and so on. After we pass it through four thousand people, that last person will tell what they heard to me. Do you think it'll be the same?

WAIT!!!!! Let's not just wisper it to each other-- let's wait fifty years after the person told us to pass it on. And not only that, but let's also mix this in with nievity [sp?] and superstition that is virtually non-existant today.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

And if there are so many planets out there (many with life) do they get into heaven.

A monomer is formed by the right combonation of gasses combined with just the right electrical current. They can be formed that way-- it has been tested and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

A polymer is a chain of over five hundred or so monomers. A polymer is one tiny part of a protein.

Monomers are constructed as both left and right handed-- in approxamately equil numbers. For a polymer to form, all the monomers must be right handed. If one left handed monomer gets in on the chain, then the whole chain is useless and dissolves. Using the knowledge, the odds of two right handed polymers joining are one in two. The odds of three joining and being right handed are one in four. The odds of four joining are on in eight.

Assuming that five hundred have to be joined, the odds of two hundred of the five hundred monomers joining together and all being right handed are about-- one in 6.427752177*10^60. The odds of three hundred are about one in 1.629628781*10^91. Keep in mind that in order to form a protein, there must be hundreds [I think] of polymers. But for a moment, assume that you needed-- five is a fair number. To find the odds of five polymers being formed, we multiply the odds of each polymer being formed together. It would seem that the power raises by about thirty for each hundred monomers that we add on, so assuming this is the case-- the odds of one full monomer forming are about one in 1*10^150. The odds of five forming would be about.

:: Does some sort of calculation. ::

One in 1*10^75937500000. And that, my friend, is a number so large that you cannot possibly comprehend it. In case you're wondering, mathmatical statistic impossibility occures at 1*10^600. Good luck with those odds.

And keep in mind that the very science you use to back your statements found those numbers.

And you think that other planets really defeated those odds?

Next post

LeonMagnolis

02-08-2002, 07:14 PM

The Bible is a book about morals. Funny, because a lot of the stuff in the bible is made up. Garden of Eden... doesn't exist. Nice story until we got satellites and looked all over Egypt. It ain't there. Oh ya, and Apples can't grow in that region, so don't think they ate from an Apple tree. How do people still believe in it? They say if God doesn't want you to find it, you won't. Seems to me that ran out of answers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible, wasn't there also a flood? Could a worldwide flood possably destroy small parts of the world? Could that be where eden went? Maybe the satellites overlooked it because it doesn't exist anymore.

Apples? Where did you get that idea? Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve ate the "apples" of good and evil. I must have missed that when I read through the creation story fifteen seconds ago so do tell.

And for posts like this one, please know what you're talking about before opening your mouth.

One example is how they God can forgive any sin. Then they go on to say some sins God can't forgive, and you will go to hell.

I've never heard my church say that God can forgive any sin, but there has been alot of debate about this. But try and remember that these are people saying this, and people are wrong-- more often then not sometimes. I don't trust everything that every scientist says, and you shouldn't trust everything that every pastor says. The best thing to do would be to read the Bible looking for where it says God can forgive any sin and make your own conclusion.

About the sin that couldn't be forgiven-- this was Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I honestly forget the referance right now, but I'll look it up later. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit happened when someone saw Jesus in the flesh, knew who he was, had seen his testimony, and realized beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was who he said he was, and still attributed his works to Satan. So technically, that sin cannot be committed at this time. I believe, though, that all other sins-- no matter how horrable-- can be forgiven.

That's not true... God forgives when you ask for forgiveness, there is only one case in which God can't forgive you, when you kill yourself, because you can't ask for forgiveness after you are already dead, can you?

If someone broke into my house with a knife and held it to my throat, and I pulled out my gun and shot him dead on the spot, he cannot be sorry and he cannot ask for forgiveness. But you still can forgive him (for whatever good it'll do). We don't have to ask for God's forgiveness to get it. Otherwise, we'd all be going to hell because we can't remember every sin we've ever commited.

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

If you're dead, would you really care? :: Raises an eyebrow. ::

I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?

What makes you think that humans are the worst creatures around? How many cats developed science? How many dolphins have written shakespear? How many termites can say that they've ever made a concious choice? What makes you think that we're the worst?

Justin-- about your next post-- let me just say, no. God doesn't require that we ask forgiveness for sins to get into heaven.

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

Matthew 3:11 "'I baptize you with water for repentance . But after me will come one who is more powerful then I, whose sandles I am not fit to cary. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."' (The fire is symbolic of the future judgement incase anyone is wondering.)

At this time, baptism became a symbol. It is not neccisary for salvation and is a declaration of your faith-- nothing more.

Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?

What a stupid question. That would be a waste of cheddar!!!

I find it odd that instead of explicitly describing scaly reptiles ten feet tall who tore people limb from limb it only makes a few exceedingly vague inferences that anyone could dig up if they were eager enough to find them.

Read Job and tell me how vague the descriptions of the bohemoth and the leviathan are.

Like the earth being 6000 years old for instance.

I've heard that question so many times it's not even funny. Assuming that God is real and he created the universe, how would he create it? I would think he would give it some sort of age. Adam and Eve were not created as babies, the animals as cubs/eggs, and the trees as seeds. If that were the case, then everything would have died save a few termites who would have gone on to write Shakespear. God would have had to add age to the earth-- so why not the rest of the universe? I don't expect anyone to accept this, but assuming that there was a God, then it would make sense that he woudl add age to what he made, wouldn't it?

So do I if you leave out the christ bit

Well I'm happy to see that you acknowledge that he existed no matter what his diety was. And don't take this as condesending in any way please. I just see people who deny the existance of Jesus, Christ or not, alltogether and it's-- refreshing to see someone who's not that nieve.

Even if I could believe in a god, the atrocities that he lets humans commit would lead me to believe he was not worth worshipping.

Realize that God isn't a babysitter. It's not his responsibility to control us. Granted He'll intervene once in a while, but it's not His job to control us as I said before.

LeonMagnolis

02-08-2002, 07:14 PM

You may say that a drunken man is more happy than a sober one. But it doesn't make the drunken man any better. I agree, the bible is by far the easiest thing to believe. I just don't believe it.

One in 1*10^75937500000 is easier to believe then God?

I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god

And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God. But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with.

He died when Adam and Eve sinned

:: Double take ::

The hell are they teaching you in that school of yours, boy? What makes you say that?

A year ago, I found my best friend kissing the girl I liked at my school. I was angry-- but that didn't end my love for him (as friends.) That didn't stop me from following her around like a puppy dog and getting nervous when she talked to me.

Justin, I think you need to rethink alot of what you believe.

Look at all the extremists out there. A lot more than just muslim. Tons of Christian extremists. You really think they belong in heaven more than an athiest? I know people who don't care for religion, but live by much higher moral standards than these people who call themself Christians.

This is sad but true. Many Christains and hypocrats [sp?] and don't practice what they preach. That's another thing that I doubt anyone can deny.

I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real.

Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real? It all goes back to this little arguement which has been going around and around throughout the whole topic.

Who made the universe? We don't know, but that's not to say we'll never know. Scientists are constantly discovering new things, right? Right. So what makes you so confident that they'll never discover who created the universe? And we should believe the universe is real because we live in it. I see the universe, it's all around me. I don't see god anywhere.

Your senses are fooling you. Space is actually a bright pink zebra with four heads and three hooves on each foot.

Oh it's not? Then prove me otherwise.

LOL... What makes YOU think you'd have half a clue as to what he thinks? I've seen several, several christians (TheGame as an example in GT for sure) say what god thinks, and how do you know? You don't, but you said the bible seems logical to you before... Well doesn't it seem logical to you that if god created me, he'd want me to know he did so?

I neither said or implied that I knew. I'm not sure where you picked that up-- but it's-- quite flawed. And you should probably check your logic on that one.

About the contradiction-- keep in mind that many of the things written in the Bible were in context. For example.

<<<17. Jesus told a man in Mark 8:34 that "whosoever will come after me,let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me." The obvious question is: What cross? He hadn't yet died on the cross. There was nothing to take up. That man would have had no idea what he was talking about.>>>

The cross was always a symbol of death. Jesus' was not the first crusifiction [sp?] and his wasn't the last. Back then, a cross was a symbol of death. They knew what he was talking about. Most of them had viewed multiple cruisifictions, and knew very well what the cross was.

But as far as logic goes, science for me beats every religion hands down.

And this again goes back to proving God wrong or right.

Which leads me to the following conclusion: if god exists but does not show us any provable signs that he does, he has planted the seeds of doubt in our minds. Hence some people do not believe in him. And yet despite this, apparently god still thinks you should believe in him without (to me) any beleivable evidence of him actually exisiting, and if you don't you're going to fry in hell forever. This means that you god has the sort of mentality of the people who go around leaving hats on the street with bricks under them, wating for people to stub their toe. Not the kind of god I would be happy worshipping.

I'm not going to try to explain God's mentality because frankly, I can't. And neither can you. I'm not sure exactly what God is thinking or was thinking when he left his hat in the street, and I'm not about to claim that I do. And God's people were not always happy worshiping him. He never once said we should be.

I lose my right to accept humans on their character alone, and have to judge them on their beliefs. I lose the right to decide how to live my life. I place total control of myself in the hands of an organisation controlled by humans, supposedly acting in gods name.

I'm not sure exactly where you're coming up with that, but I still choose how to live my life. I can still judge people on character alone. I still control myself. I choose by my own free will to live a life in accordance with the Bible and it's teachings. I choose to find my opinions about people by who they are and not what they believe. Dont believe this? Well then IM my best friend. He's gay-- but that doesn't stop us from being friends. I know what he does is wrong, but I don't let that stop me from loving him (as a friend).

Its like saying "wow, I can see how someone could have made that computer program, but there's no way I could do it, so it must be the work of a god".

Under the same train of thought, if I find a watch in a field, I don't just assume it evolved there. I know that someone had to have taken time and effort to make that watch. Look how perfectly the earth works and tell me that there was no thought or effort put into it and it happened by chance.

"I'm sorry, I just find it difficult to see things from your perspective"

"I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass." (Directed at noone in here really-- I just thought that might go nicely after that little quote)

Because if you did and you still thought it was BS, I would have to conclude that you are willfully blind.

There was a case a while ago of a recently dead snail being dated at over five million years old. There are many other accounts of it being wrong, and I'll look for more later.

I do know how carbon dating is done. By comparing the amounts of the carbon isotopes, I believe. But then you have to assume that the amount was equil in the first place. What's to prevent more of one of the isotopes then the other?

Okay, my hands are sore and I think this post is gonna take about ten pages, so I'll just post it and get back to the rest later.

Xantar

02-08-2002, 07:26 PM

LeonMagnolis, you are making some great posts. In fact, I'm about to give you some doubloons as soon as I finish this one.

But please don't feel as if atheists are attacking your religion and trying to convert you to atheism. This is just a discussion about what we believe in and why. We all started this knowing that there's no way we are going to change anyone's beliefs. All the atheists are doing is explaining their point of view. If that involves pointing out what seems to be a contradiction in religion that you don't see as a contradiction, just explain it right back to them.

The_Dunadan

02-08-2002, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
If you are refering to me saying "there is no god it's crap" and stating it as a fact then I would like to see you point it out.

And besides, even if people HAVE said "there is no god it's crap", why do you have to retaliate with what you said? Surely you are intelligent enough to see that two wrongs don't make a right?

You have to swallow your pride and avoid taking the sucker punch I'm afraid...

no i wansn't implicating you, it was someone else. *goes to find it* d'oh! xantar was right, it does say believe. i'm sorry xantar.

oh, and pickachu, i figured out the confusion on the religion thing! for some unknown reason when religion was brought up i only thought about the religions who base their beliefs on the bible. i thought his question meant like which out of those is the right one. now i understand your criticism. sorry for the misunderstanding. i meant like lutherans, catholics, mormons, baptists, etc. like which of those is right.

now to answer the question which religion(all religions) is right, well, i dunno. i'll do some research and get back to you guys.

wait to go leon magnolis. i wish i had your patience to do those kind of posts.

LeonMagnolis

02-08-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Xantar
LeonMagnolis, you are making some great posts. In fact, I'm about to give you some doubloons as soon as I finish this one.

But please don't feel as if atheists are attacking your religion and trying to convert you to atheism. This is just a discussion about what we believe in and why. We all started this knowing that there's no way we are going to change anyone's beliefs. All the atheists are doing is explaining their point of view. If that involves pointing out what seems to be a contradiction in religion that you don't see as a contradiction, just explain it right back to them.

Oh believe me, I know what they're doing and these are mostly arguements that I've heard, although some made me think. And as I said before, I don't expect anyone's point of view to change. This is a-- spar, for lack of a better term. Two differant opinions fighting-- neither side is going to win, but both can come out a little wiser and better able to argue the other side.

LeonMagnolis

02-08-2002, 09:14 PM

Well as long as I'm on somewhat of a roll, I might as well post something my friend brought up. This is totally random and apart from the topic really, but how does one prove the scientific method scientifically?

I'm not gonna comment on this because I already got a headache thinking about it, but I just thought I'd throw that out here, lol.

Joeiss

02-08-2002, 09:49 PM

Well, I do not like to post when threads get large such as this one... But I guess I'll throw in my two cents into this conversation. Now remember, I have not read all of the posts, well, because there is just too damn many of them. So I'll just write what comes to my mind on different issues.

After Life

Pika and I had a conversation about this on ICQ, so I'll post what I think here. I belive that a person does not have to be a certain religion, or be in the "right" religion to go into an afterlife. I belive this: (this is a clippet of mine and Pika's conversation)

"I think that a person who accepts all people, will die. And when they die, whatever they belive in (heaven, or blackness, etc.) will happen. I think that a person who does not accept all, will also die. And when they die, whatever they believe in, the oposite will happen.

I mean, BigJustin says that everybody will go to hell. But from a Christian's point of view, I think that everybody who is not open to other religions/people will go to hell, or their equivalent of a bad place. Which is why I think we should all be positive to eachother, then we will not fear what happens after death, but welcome it."

I also think that everybody who follows the example which Martin Luther King set, will be living an amazing afterlife, the way that they want it to be.

Religions (Right, Wrong)

I do not know what I truly belive, but right now, I think that there is no true religion. I believe in Jesus Christ, and He taught us to love all and respect eachother, including those who are "lower class", and prostitutes, criminals, etc. I think that there should be a religion that just promotes peace and unity. I think that if we focus on this, then God will look down on us and be happy with what He sees... That being because I believe in God. And for Atheists, well, they can just know that what they are doing is helping them, and they will be great people if they join this "help everybody" religion.

Also, as I already said, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in His Father, God. But do you know what? Who the hell I am I to say that Jesus is my Saviour? I mean, there are so many different religions, so many different people who believe in God, so many people who do not believe in God, so how do I know that He is God? And hell, how do I know that there is a God? I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that.

Creation

Wow... Just go outside and look around. Look at the stars. Look at the trees, the grass, the houses, the people. It is amazing how many things there are on this land. It is amazing how many events have taken place, and how many adoptations animals and mamals have done. So how the f*ck did this all start? I have no friggen clue. Was is created by God? Was it created in a big BANG? Here are some of my thoughts.

God Theory : God created everything. God created the Universe, God created the planets, God created animals and man. This all makes sence, except for the nagging fact of WHO THE F*CK CREATED GOD? I mean, did God have a father? I doubt it. And even if He did, then who created Him? I mean, I think that it is amazing that I am alive right now, and that I am breathing and that I can function. This is crazy, I mean, how could this have happened? I have no clue.

BANG theory : Another one that ends up in a question of "Who created the Universe so this could all happen". I am really confused about this theory too because I am just too damn skeptical of things being created without anybody to create them. But then, how am I alive?

So, as one can see, my views on creation are messed up and I am just flat out confused about it. I just cannot see how something can just appear out of thin air. It is so damn confusing. And the only way that we can probably find out is if we die. That sucks.

Conclusion

Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious.

The_Dunadan

02-08-2002, 09:57 PM

god wasn't created by anybody. what i'm about to tell you is mind boggling but.........

god always was. no beginning no end.

Joeiss

02-08-2002, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by The_Dunadan
god wasn't created by anybody. what i'm about to tell you is mind boggling but.........

god always was. no beginning no end.

I know the God has no beginning and no end.

But how isn't there a beginning??? It is so damn confusing.

The_Dunadan

02-08-2002, 10:04 PM

here is my prob with the scientific method thing.

the scientific method is limited to a process defined by stuff that measurable and repeatable. it can't speak on issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality. for this stuff science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it. science can be used for both good and bad. it can be used to make vaccines or poisons, nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons. it can be used to clean up the environment or to pollute it. it can be used to argue for God or against Him. science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. all science can do is show us how natural law works, but it tells us nothing about its origins.

Drunk Hobbit

02-08-2002, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by The_Dunadan
all science can do is show us how natural law works, but it tells us nothing about its origins.

Actually science has a lot to do with the origins of things.

The_Dunadan

02-08-2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Danchastu

Actually science has a lot to do with the origins of things.

give some examples.

Drunk Hobbit

02-08-2002, 10:15 PM

Anthropology
Paleontology
Archeology
Astronomy

To name a few. And to give specific examples would result in pages and pages of stuff no one here would bother reading.

nWoCHRISnWo

02-08-2002, 10:18 PM

LeonMagnolis, the topic is "Why don't you believe in God?"

Then you say "And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God" If you're implying the people who are saying there's no god in this topic is trying to tell you there's no god, then you obviously can't read.

"Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real?"

Who says you have to? This is a topic about why we DON'T believe in god, and I'm telling you. You're giving us a lotta crap about odds and what John 3:19 says for no reason. I said "I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real." Key word: I

And how exactly could we prove you wrong if we were right? We can't because like I said millions of times before, you'd have to die first. Everything about religion is just so convenient for the people who are arguing in favor of it because there's absolutely nothing we can do to prove it wrong. But ask yourself this: Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world.

And of course there's that question again that NOBODY can answer: Who made god? Does god have a god?

As for your quote "I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass." thanks for it, I could use it for many religious people.

"Have you ever thought about what the world would be like without religion? Can you even comprehend that?"

Nope, I can't comprehend that... Because it would be too good of a place compared to what we have now. Religion just starts fights, wars, and causes millions of deaths. The attack on the WTC buildings wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion. WWII? Religion. Should I go on?

"Your senses are fooling you. Space is actually a bright pink zebra with four heads and three hooves on each foot.

Oh it's not? Then prove me otherwise."

What the hell are you trying to say here? I said the universe is all around me... IT IS. It's a fact, if you wanna argue this then you're too stupid to have an opinion on anything anyway. It's also a fact that I don't see god, and neither do you. I don't hear god, and neither do you. I don't feel god's hand helping me when I need help, and neither do you. So if you can't see him, touch him, hear him, then you have no clue if he's real do you? No, you don't. So why do you believe him?

Here's something that I said ealier in this topic: "I don't believe in god because I (as well as pretty much everyone else I know) don't believe in stuff until it can be proven. People use the argument "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T a god, can you?" and I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real. Like I said hundreds of times before, if you're going to believe something that can't be scientifically proven just because it makes sense to you and your prayers have come true, then you'd have to try every single religion to see if you were right."

And you seem to like to talk about odds. Well, you never mention that odds of there being a god... And using simple logic, I think you can agree with me that the odds are too horrible to even comprehend. I mean, have you ever seen an all powerful being that can do anything he wants? Have you ever seen someone who just lives in someplace we never see? Have you ever seen someone create millions and millions of people before? I'll assume you answer "no" to the questions, then the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad. So giving the odds you gave about the science crap, yes, I'd take them odds over the odds of there being a god.

Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion? Have you tried every religion? No you haven't, because that's impossible. So the odds of your religion, being right over every other one that you've never even heard of aren't very good, are they?

"Now STFU or GTFO. That pretty much sums up what I have to say about that. If you want to have an opinion about something, at least have some basis...Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order? As I said before-- think before you post."

This ALWAYS happens when arguing with religious people. You use odds when it's convenient for you, you use logic when it's convenient for you, you use faith when it's convenient for you, you use whatever is convenient for you at the time. Look at this example here. You say that guy had no basis for thinking that some rich guy made up the story about god, yet you read the story out of a book that you don't know who made it. It could have been monkeys that wrote that book for all you know, yet you believe this book. And then you say "Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?" So know you're using simple logic, eh? Well do YOU really think that there's such a thing as a superbeing with magical powers?

Just use logic. You can't prove there's god. You can't prove there's ever been something/someone that is at all similar to god. You can't prove there's a heaven or hell. You can't prove there ever was a garden of eden or whatever. You can't find me anyone that can prove that. So using very simple logic, I've come to the conclusion god just isn't real.

nWoCHRISnWo

02-08-2002, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by The_Dunadan
god wasn't created by anybody. what i'm about to tell you is mind boggling but.........

god always was. no beginning no end.

Oh really? So I'll say so was the universe, and scientists have answers for most everything else after we know how the universe was created (it "alway swas") so I guess there's no more argument then. There's no god, right?

TheGrimReaper

02-09-2002, 12:03 AM

Cant we all just beleive what we want to beleive, stop making stupid topics, and get on with our lives?

Im all for debates, but this one has been made over and over...

DeathsHand

02-09-2002, 12:11 AM

Speaking of how the universe was created...

god aside, I find it weird that it would always be here...

and yet... before it was, what was here?..... :hmm:

:D

Just trying to switch the conversation a little bit even though it won't work and it's off topic :sneaky:

Neo

02-09-2002, 12:16 AM

Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

And it doesn't make sense to talk about "before", since time and space came into being together.

DeathsHand

02-09-2002, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Neo
Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

And it doesn't make sense to talk about "before", since time and space came into being together.

umm... yes.... good point... :sneaky:

well since I don't pay attention to all that stuff, I'll just... walk... away now............... :(

BigJustinW

02-09-2002, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Neo
Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

The first thing I learned about science and the elements

"It's impossible to make somthing from nothing"

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 01:50 AM

RSI hell here I come... (pun not intended by the way)

"From religions we aquired: our time scale-- 7 days in a week, 12 months in a year, AD and BC"

Pointless - our calendar is based on the seasons, not by religious edict (apart from the seven day week thing, which is conveniently just the simplest way to split up a 28 day period). Did you not find it odd that non-christian cultures also developed the 12 month year etc etc? Month - 28 day lunar cycle, which has been messed about with by various people (esp. the romans) to fit in with the rather chaotic mess the whole calendar is. In 10,000 years time our calendar will have changed. In 10 million years it will be totally different.
AD and BC are totally arbitary scales, and have no meaning really. They're just what we in the western world mark as "ground zero". Most major cultures not based on the bible have different ground zeros.

"We got explorers finding new worlds under the pretense of evangilism."

Also curiosity, also greed, also being a stubborn bastard and saying "look you fools, the earth is round and I KNOW I can get to India this way much quicker... damnit, what's this America-shaped thing I've run into?"

"The reading and writing system we have today was used by the clergy to teach Biblical scriptures."

During the dark ages, the church was in total control and no-one aprt from religious leaders and members was taught how to read or write, so the church could remain in control. It was onlt during the Renaissance and with the advent of the printing press that education of the masses became feasible (with, I might add, the stauch opposotin of most of the church - they thought the idea of someone reading and understanding a copy of the bible in their own home was blasphemous).

"As stupid as you may think religion is, noone can deny that it has done huge things to shape the world as it is today"

Yep... as well as propagating moral codes and establishing the initial strategies for a stable large civilisation under the pretext of fear, it has also been responsible for some of the greatest wars and atrocities in history. It's certainly shaped the world alright.

"you cannot overlook the fact that we would not be anywhere today without religion. "

Not a fact. See some of your later posts regarding what you cvlassify as "fact" and "not-fact." Like me, you have no idea what the world would be like today if religion had never existed. Naturally, the initial reaction you will have is that it would be a much worse place. I wonder.

"that progression may well include a logical explanation for the creation of the universe with or without God."

It may indeed, in which case you'll find me saying "Oh well, looks like I was wrong then". It may also lead to an explanation for everything religion has answers for that science doesn't... yet...

"True faith is believing in something that you cannot prove."

And that's why I have no true faith. The point of this thread, I think. Although you can look at it objectively and say that nothing can be proved, and we just believe we exist and see the stuff we see. But I draw the line at believing things I can see and touch.

" Jesus wasn't just "made up." I know that for a fact"

How? Do you know something not even the top biblical scholars in the world know? Jesus is present in records made by humans, there are no living eyewitnesses, and no time machine. Therefore, you cannot prove these documents are true, and you cannot say that it is a fact that Jesus existed. You may, like me, believe he existed (although as you picked up on I don't think he was a godsent figure at all) but you cannot say for a fact that he did.

"Do you really believe that they [religions] were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?"

Is that really such a ridiculous hypothesis? Although I think you'll find that most religons were actually introduced to whole countries by the government, usually as the result of influence over a leader. Christianity wasn't actually getting anywhere fast until it was made official religion of the Roman Empire.

"See above about the things that Christianity and religion in general have brought into the world."

You can see it in the papers too. Usually on the front page.

" In case you're wondering, mathmatical statistic impossibility occures at 1*10^600"

I'm no mathematician, but I've found a page which debunks this, as well as the way you arrived at this number. Once I find it, I'll post it for your perusal. But from what I remember your calculation leaves out several important biological factors.

"And you think that other planets really defeated those odds?"

I never said that other planets supporte life (although chris may have done). But I accept it as a possibility.

"Could a worldwide flood possably destroy small parts of the world?"

Begs the question of a) how a flood formed in the first place b) how all the animals survived and c) where the evidence of it is today

" I don't trust everything that every scientist says, and you shouldn't trust everything that every pastor says. The best thing to do would be to read the Bible"

So you hold the bible to be an infallible record of everything it contains? Namely, that if the bible says something, and the evidence saus something else, then the bible is right? I don't mean to start a literary/spritual argument, I just wish to nkow how you perceive all this.

"What makes you think that we're the worst?"

War, mainly. And the way we f**k each other over so well and so often. And don't even get me started on destroying species, habitats, global climate change, etc.

"That would be a waste of cheddar!!!"

Would it still be a waste of cheddar if it granted you eternal life in a blissful paradise? Seems like a good religion to follow, if you ask me. Especially if you're the owner af a chedar factory.

"Read Job and tell me how vague the descriptions of the bohemoth and the leviathan are."

If I remember correctly, they're about as close to the description of dozens of other beasts which we understand as mythical. If you could post the relevant passages or provide a link I'd be most appreciative.

"I've heard that question so many times it's not even funny."

And you begin your rant that god has the ability to change everything at will, therefore rendering science useless as it relies on observable constants (namely radioisotopes, amongst others). If this is the case, then we are at an impass; because scientific logic will always fail when faced with "god did it".

"it would make sense that he woudl add age to what he made, wouldn't it?"

Well to me it would make more sense that god didn't exist at all and the age things have is... uh... how old they are.

"Well I'm happy to see that you acknowledge that he existed no matter what his diety was."

I believe he existed... the way you phrased it made it sound like I KNEW he existed, IMO. And I don't regard him as affiliated with any deity whatsoever.

"It's not his responsibility to control us."

Then why bother having a god? If he can't or won't control his subjects, why should I believe he exists if I can still see no evidence for it? At all?

"One in 1*10^75937500000 is easier to believe then God?"

Maybe I should do a bit of maths on this... hmm, what are the chances of molecules combinig in just the right way to make a god?
No, I'm only joking. Like I said above, I'm still trying to find that page (it was on a site with about 3 million pages and I can't remember which heading it was under). Bah.

"And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God."

I am not trying to convert you. See title of topic.

"But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with."

So the ability to change your mind automatically makes it weak? I change my outlook on things due to changes in evidence. It has no effect on my beliefs as yet.
And I guess I can take it as read that, by this comment, there is no possibility that you will admit the possibility that you could be wrong. Sigh.

"Many Christains and hypocrats"

Heh... personally, I find it odd that you seperate the two. But no matter.

"Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real?"

Firstly: we can't prove anything right. Secondly: we can't prove anything is real. All we can do is say stuff like "things fall down. Why? Dunno. Oh hold on, maybe there's a big magnet under trhe floor. Hold on, it attracts everything though. OK, must be some other kind of force. I'll call it gravity, and work out how it works mathematically". Thirdly: I therefore have to believe what I can see, and everything I see bears the hall marks of having no divine deity involved in it's construction from my POV.

"And this again goes back to proving God wrong or right."

No, it doesn't. I have never tried to prove god wrong or right. It's just that my scientific beliefs are incompatible with any religous ones I may have had.

"I'm not going to try to explain God's mentality because frankly, I can't. And neither can you."

You're quite right; IMO, either god is a total schizo freak who doesn't know what he's doing, or he's actually trying to get people sent to hell. Or maybe the whole "believe in my teachings, or die forever horribly!" just harks back to wanting to get people to do what they're told to.

[next post]

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 01:53 AM

"I'm not sure exactly where you're coming up with that, but I still choose how to live my life."

What I was saying that, if you take many religions literally (as IMO too many people do), strict aherence to one usually totally prohibits knowledge of any others, contact with them, etc etc. It also means that if I do things that my religion specifically prohibits (examples include masturbation, pre-marital sex, eating beef, swallowing a fly, talking in public, reading the paper) I am hellbound. That is how religion controls lives, and by disrgarding this "threat" totally I am free to do whatever the f**k I want. And, it has to be said, I enjoy it immensely.
If you have similar joy adhering to the beliefs you adhere to, then that's fine by me. But bear in mind that the bible has alot to say about how to treat "other" people. If you've transcended these pretty horrible rules, well done.

"Look how perfectly the earth works and tell me that there was no thought or effort put into it and it happened by chance."

Look how perfectly the world works? Hello, am I missing something? Only last time I looked, it was on the verge of a total mental, physical, chemical, biological, economical, environmental etc etc collapse. From everything I've seen of it, it appears far from having any thought put into it at all. It is a system with deep, almost innumerable flaws.

"I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass."

This should either be directed at no-one at all or at everyone altogether. Otherwise, you're singling out a single person/group of people and criticising for them for their beliefs.

"There was a case a while ago of a recently dead snail being dated at over five million years old."

Oooh well lookie here, an error in a single radiometric dating result?! Surely, then that's conclusive proof that every single radiometric dating method is all totally wrong? Do you even know how many radiometric tests have been made? Cos I doubt if I can count that high in a day without getting terminally bored of counting.

"I do know how carbon dating is done... What's to prevent more of one of the isotopes then the other?"

Then you obviously don't know how carbon dating works.
See my posts above on how it doesn't even apply to fossils. You may also see me refer to carbon dating as being one of the more inaccurate methods as it relies on some assumptions which we are only 70% or so sure of. These don't apply to other methods due to the nature of the isotopes in question.

" i meant like lutherans, catholics, mormons, baptists, etc. like which of those is right."

So buddhism, paganism and all the rest are wrong?

"now to answer the question which religion(all religions) is right, well, i dunno"

Ah, an improvement at least. As for your research as to which one is "right" I wish you luck... you may need several billion dollars to spend on weaponry as well, because once you "prove" one to be right or wrong, there are going to be plenty of people who disagree with you, and have alot of very sharp sticks to emphasise their point.
Hence why I think you should just accept that every belief system has it's own merits, and if someone chooses to believe in one over another, thenthat is their choice and they should be left to it.

"how does one prove the scientific method scientifically?"

The scientific method isn't based on science, it's based on logic. Science is merely the application of observation, experimentation applied logically to the universe around us.
As an example... science sees something which looks like a petrol engine. It smells like a petrol engine. It makes a noise like a petrol engine. When you take it to bits, it looks like a petrol engine inside. When you put petrol and oil in it, it makes a shaft spin around. Hence science calls it a petrol engine and feeds it petrol in order to keep it running.
Religion however is perfectly happy calling it a sausage and saying it draws its power from the cosmic rays. Although when it suits them, it's a petrol engine.

Onto Joeiss...

Afterlife I suppose is one of those unknowns. If, like me, you believe there to be no spiritual afterlife, then you either accept no afterlife or you choose to make up your own in life. I imagine everyone has nique thoughts on this. But this is a theological/psychological discussion, so not really applicable here.

"I think that there should be a religion that just promotes peace and unity."

Well, if you want a religion like that, Buddhism is a good one. Or Universal Unitarianism. Or Secular Humanism. They, after all, both preach and practice it.

"and they will be great people if they join this "help everybody" religion."

For me, it's a belief, not a religon. A very important distinction.

" I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that."

And it's something that only you can decide as well. Accept only what you see as truthful and good and helpful to all others. Yes, it is confusing when you come to doubt some or all parts of your faith. It is just something that each and every one of us has to figure out themselves.

As far as god vs. big bang (or any of the other scientific theories based on the creation of out universe), you're right, nobody knows which is true. But only science is actually seeking to explain them with evidence. Given time, I would say an answer one way or another is inevitable.

"Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious."

Yep.

"god always was"

[i]I believe...

"science... can't speak on issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality"

Philosophy, psychology.

"science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it"

Which can be rationalised scientifically... but the actual execution of the scientific method requires the absence of any persoanl beliefs or values (which are known as "bias" amogst the scientific community).

"science can be used for both good and bad"

And surely this depends on the nature of the people using it's products? Again, not part of the topic.

"it can be used to argue for God or against Him"

There are very few ways of using science to argue for a god...

"science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. all science can do is show us how natural law works, but it tells us nothing about its origins."

No. Science can already explain how it is possible for us to have evolved from a bunch of inert matter... this accounts for our origins, I believe. As for moral and value systems, again, these can be explained by science (namely sociology, anthropology and psychology). Is it beneficial for society to allow those within it to kill each other? No, because it lowers genetic diversity, although it can be essential in the competition for resources to ensure the survial of the best adapted genetic lineage. Can we have sex with our own parents? No, becuuse this leads to genetic monoculture which leads to the proliferation of latent mutations and disease susceptibility. Believe it or not, even something as subjective as "human nature" can be explained scientifically.

"Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world."

And there was me thinking that I'd never be seen agreeing with nwoChris... ;)

"Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion?"

That's easy Chris. My god says I'm right, and they all worship false gods and are mad infidels. Too easy. [/sarcasm]

"It's impossible to make somthing from nothing"

Well... theoretical quantum mechanics have proved this not to be the case I believe.

Have people yet comprehended why I don't believe in god? I am not trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong. I am just trying to show you why I believe mine.

nWoCHRISnWo

02-09-2002, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
Have people yet comprehended why I don't believe in god? I am not trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong. I am just trying to show you why I believe mine.

Exactly.

LeonMagnolis

02-09-2002, 02:52 AM

:: Slowly works his way through three bags of chips, a Whopper, a medium cherry coke, a bowl of icecream, a glass of milk, and an altoids mint as he reads Chris's long and winded post. :: I'm about to deem your post not worth arguing because it's-- annoying-- to argue with nitpickers. But I have some spare time and a couple shots of Jamacian rum left, so I might as well.

Then you say "And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God" If you're implying the people who are saying there's no god in this topic is trying to tell you there's no god, then you obviously can't read.

Oh come now-- you don't need to stoop to insults, my friend. And do try to take things in context. If you would take a second look and read my post more carefully, you might catch the small fact that I said that in response to one of the atheists in here saying "I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God." Ahh, here it is. now read again and try to look at the bigger picture instead of finding every little problem you can with my posts.

<<<quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God. But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with.>>>

Now read the WHOLE post, and maybe you'll see that I had a point that was not directed at you or anyone else here, but was just something that we should all keep in mind in general.

Who says you have to? This is a topic about why we DON'T believe in god, and I'm telling you. You're giving us a lotta crap about odds and what John 3:19 says for no reason. I said "I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real." Key word: I

:: Raises a brow. ::

John three nineteen? You mean three sixteen, right? Again, TRY to take things in context. The only scripture I quoted was for Justin to set him straight about several common misconceptions he had. Now I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack me for that, but perhaps if you read Revelation 40:93, everything may become clear for you. :: Sarcasm. ::

As I said before, I don't expect to get the answers from a bunch of kids. I don't expect to be able to solve every Biblical paradox and every arguement ever brought against Christainity. Let me spell this out for you-- "I don't expect to get all the answers from a video game forum."

And how exactly could we prove you wrong if we were right? We can't because like I said millions of times before, you'd have to die first. Everything about religion is just so convenient for the people who are arguing in favor of it because there's absolutely nothing we can do to prove it wrong. But ask yourself this: Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world.

Hmm-- can I prove there is a God. Tell you what-- look at the other hundred or so posts here and read a little. You just might see that everyone here understands that there is no way to prove that there is or isn't a God. After that, look at your post again.

And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed.

And of course there's that question again that NOBODY can answer: Who made god? Does god have a god?

I'll admit that in these arguements, many times, the Christians overlook the Atheists posts and simply ignore the details-- but seeing an atheist ignore a Christian's post-- that's something new now.

Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so.

Nope, I can't comprehend that... Because it would be too good of a place compared to what we have now. Religion just starts fights, wars, and causes millions of deaths. The attack on the WTC buildings wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion. WWII? Religion. Should I go on?

Oh come now-- there he goes ignoring my post once more. No, there wouldn't have been a 9/11 attack, because odds are the WTC wouldn't have existed. How can you blame WW2 on Religion? Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion." NO. He would have easily found some other foothold.

What the hell are you trying to say here? I said the universe is all around me... IT IS. It's a fact, if you wanna argue this then you're too stupid to have an opinion on anything anyway. It's also a fact that I don't see god, and neither do you. I don't hear god, and neither do you. I don't feel god's hand helping me when I need help, and neither do you. So if you can't see him, touch him, hear him, then you have no clue if he's real do you? No, you don't. So why do you believe him?

Once more, let's not result to petty insults.

Prove to me the universe exists using scientific methods. Prove to me that there is space out there. Prove to me that my senses are not decieving me and that we're not all riding on a disc shaped world on the back of four elephants who in turn ride ont he back of the great turtle a'tun. Prove to me that what we see is really here. I don't feel the universe, but you believe it's there. Go ahead, feel the space. Tell me what you see. Take a look at space. Is it real? Or are your senses just decieving you?
So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you.

And you seem to like to talk about odds. Well, you never mention that odds of there being a god... And using simple logic, I think you can agree with me that the odds are too horrible to even comprehend. I mean, have you ever seen an all powerful being that can do anything he wants? Have you ever seen someone who just lives in someplace we never see? Have you ever seen someone create millions and millions of people before? I'll assume you answer "no" to the questions, then the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad. So giving the odds you gave about the science crap, yes, I'd take them odds over the odds of there being a god.

:: Raises a brow. ::

Have you ever studied probability before? Take a course or two. I did. You should too. It might clear this gross misconception that you seem to have about being able to estimate the odds of there being a god.

Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist.

The gory details aside, as I said before, take a course or two on probability and perhaps you'll understand what i'm talking about.

Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion? Have you tried every religion? No you haven't, because that's impossible. So the odds of your religion, being right over every other one that you've never even heard of aren't very good, are they?

Oh come now-- I do believe that this was addressed in the other posts. As I said before, dont' randomly skip parts of a post. You might miss something.

LeonMagnolis

02-09-2002, 02:53 AM

This ALWAYS happens when arguing with religious people. You use odds when it's convenient for you, you use logic when it's convenient for you, you use faith when it's convenient for you, you use whatever is convenient for you at the time.

:: Claps sarcastically ::

Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate. :rolleyes:

Look at this example here. You say that guy had no basis for thinking that some rich guy made up the story about god, yet you read the story out of a book that you don't know who made it. It could have been monkeys that wrote that book for all you know, yet you believe this book.

Actually it was written by a variaty of authors spanning the last tenthousand or so years and put together by the council of carthage in-- 414 AD I believe. Then again, I could be wrong about the date.

Please, do be a little more intelligent in your posts.

And then you say "Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?" So know you're using simple logic, eh? Well do YOU really think that there's such a thing as a superbeing with magical powers?

Would it shock you if I said yes? Isn't that what this debate is about? I understand you were using that as an example-- as poor as it is-- but when you have undeniable proof that the Bible wasn't just written off the top of someone's head, then you kinda think a little bit differantly.

The origional manuscripts are still around-- for the most part anyway-- and I welcome you to take a gander at them and tell me that all of the books of the Bible were written by some village idiot who wanted to keep his friends in line.

Just use logic. You can't prove there's god. You can't prove there's ever been something/someone that is at all similar to god. You can't prove there's a heaven or hell. You can't prove there ever was a garden of eden or whatever. You can't find me anyone that can prove that. So using very simple logic, I've come to the conclusion god just isn't real.

As I said before-- which you seemingly overlooked in your haste to respond-- I don't intend on proving it. I don't intend on giving you all the answers. I guess I should make it clear that "IIII Dooooon't haaaaave alllll theeeeee aaaaansweeeers." And neither do you.

Again, using the same logic, you can't prove that he doesn't exist so I come to the conclusion that he is real.

Chris-- I'm getting the feeling that I may have created some animosity between our two selves. This is a good thing.

Joeiss-- if you get the chance, IM me later and we'll talk about some ofyour questions. My AIM handle is LeonMagnolis, and MSN is LeonMagnolis@hotmail.com . I can't give you all the answers, but I'll do what I can to help you reach them yourself.

Now keep the dubloons coming. I want to start a gambling club here and I'm gonna need at least a thousand to get that up and running. :D :roll:

Euch, I just saw the other posts and I'll get back to them tomorrow. I need my beauty sleep-- and you;d aggree too if you took a look at my ugly mug. :(

Drunk Hobbit

02-09-2002, 10:28 AM

*reads posts*

Not one thing in that glob of words proved a thing. All you did was insult Chris with sarcasim. Good job. I really believe all your ideas now. Wait- what were they? Oh, that's right: nothing.

BigJustinW

02-09-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Danchastu
*reads posts*

Not one thing in that glob of words proved a thing. All you did was insult Chris with sarcasim. Good job. I really believe all your ideas now. Wait- what were they? Oh, that's right: nothing.

Ugh, nobody is gonna prove anything to anybody in this thread.

look at Pickachu's older posts, they proved nothing... now Leon is taking the same defensive stance as Pika.... and you make a sarcastic post about it?

Explain.

As for Pika....

If Scientists discover somthing that gives conclusive evidence that God does exist, and he did make this planet, and half of the scientist are still skeptical about it, which stance would you take?

Drunk Hobbit

02-09-2002, 11:37 AM

Yeah...this topic is kinda pointless. No one's all of a sudden going to be like "How could I be so stupid. Now I believe there is/isn't a god." Everyone expressed their beliefs and now people are getting angry. I suggest closing the topic.

nWoCHRISnWo

02-09-2002, 02:27 PM

"Oh come now-- you don't need to stoop to insults, my friend"

That right before you insult me three or four times. You're an idiot. :eek: Oh look, another insult! Wah-wah! It doesn't take anything away from my post, and it's not exactly an insult if it's true.

"And do try to take things in context. If you would take a second look and read my post more carefully, you might catch the small fact that I said that in response to one of the atheists in here saying "I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God." Ahh, here it is. now read again and try to look at the bigger picture instead of finding every little problem you can with my posts."

I think YOU need to read over some things sometimes... READ THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC. It CLEARLY states: "Don't believe in God? Why not?" So what the hell do you think we're gonna do? This WHOLE topic is about us non-believers telling you why we don't believe. I tell you I don't believe in god because it's what the topic is about! I don't give a **** if you do believe in god, because that's not what this topic is about... So you saying you're tired of people telling you there isn't a god is STUPID. If you were so tired of it, then why'd you come into the topic about it? That's like somebody going into a topic called "Dogs" and saying "I hate talknig about dogs." Do you see how retarded that is now?

"Hmm-- can I prove there is a God. Tell you what-- look at the other hundred or so posts here and read a little. You just might see that everyone here understands that there is no way to prove that there is or isn't a God"

...What in the blue hell is your point? That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! I can respond with the exact quote that you responded to because you didn't answer a damn thing. There is no way to prove there is a god, and who was arguing that point? Like I said in my other post that you ignored (yet you tell me I ignore some of the things in your post) nobody can prove there isn't a god because you religious people conveniently made the story that you have to die to know if god is there or not. If you can see god anyother way, then please do tell because sdtpikachu, millions of other people, and I haven't seen him yet. And if you're dead, how can you possibly tell people he's not there? YOU COULDN'T. And that's my point...

"And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed."

Oh, really? Ya know what... I don't give a ****. It's MY logic, I (*I*) think it's logical. And what exactly is flawed about my logic? Have YOU ever seen am all powerful superbeing? What is that, you haven't? Okay great, so we haven't ever seen something like it, but because you read about it in a book you believe it. Yet, you think MY logic is flawed. Did you ride in the short bus to school?

"but seeing an atheist ignore a Christian's post-- that's something new now."

Do you get stupider by the post? This topic (read: THIS TOPIC) is about why we don't believe in god (read: DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD). It's not my job to answer all your stupid questions about science and the bible, because that isn't what this topic is about, and sdtpikachu did a pretty fine job of that.

"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

LMAO. THIS is probably the biggest reason why I can't stand most religious people's arguments. You believe god "always has been" yet it's impossible to believe that the universe "always has been" ? The universe always has been, and you should probably accept it as so.

"Oh come now-- there he goes ignoring my post once more."

What did I ignore?! And like I said above, this topic isn't me telling you why there isn't a god, it's me telling you why I don't believe god. Read the topic title once more, please.

"Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion." NO. He would have easily found some other foothold."

And how the hell do you know? Oh yeah, I'm sorry, you know everything and everything you say is a fact. You don't know and I don't know, but as it stands we pretty much know that what Hitler did was caused by religion, so let's put up "One big bad thing that killed millions of people" on the "because of religion" list.

"So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you."

Now don't go cry that I ignored your post once more, I just quoted this sentence out of that big paragraph where you go on about the universe being fake.

I understood the universe to be all around me. That's what it is, isn't it? I can touch things around me, I can see things around me... You can't? Well maybe you have some type of mental disorder then, I'm not sure, but trying to prove the universe is fake is (and this isn't a "petty insult") retarded.

"Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist."

Don't put words in my mouth.

I said "the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad." Now could you point out just where the hell I said "the odds of god CREATING something..."? Stop acting like an idiot, it's one thing to "nitpick" and it's another thing to make up things and pretend I said them because it's convenient for you. But then again almost all religious people do it, so it's not only you. Of course, either way, it's a petty insult to you.

If you're so high and mighty on odds, you tell me the odds of there being a god. I'm sorry not everyone had the chance to study odds for a year.

"I do believe that this was addressed in the other posts"

Yes, and in other posts people have said they believe their religion "because it works." Well if you haven't tried every religion, then how would you know if another one didn't work better?

DeathsHand

02-09-2002, 02:30 PM

hmm.... *reads Chris' post*...

Danchastu: "Yeah...this topic is kinda pointless. No one's all of a sudden going to be like "How could I be so stupid. Now I believe there is/isn't a god." Everyone expressed their beliefs and now people are getting angry. I suggest closing the topic"

I second that...... or would it be third..... or.... Ok how about this....

I agree...

:unsure:

nWoCHRISnWo

02-09-2002, 02:36 PM

I agree, there shouldn't be any debating in here, but since the topic is about why I don't believe in god, I'll tell you. If someone wants to argue with me, they're the ones making this topic difficult, I'm just doing what the topic is supposed to be about.

":: Claps sarcastically ::

Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate"

*claps sarcastically*

No no, let's give YOU a hand, you've realized I'm right so you insult me. This isn't a debate idiot, it's me telling you why I don't believe god. If you don't like it, get out of this topic that clearly states what I just said in the title.

Now you better call the cops because I'm "ignoring" the rest of your post! It's all about how you don't have all the answers to why I don't believe god, and you know what, WHO CARES? This ISN'T a debate, it's us telling you why we don't believe in god for the eighth time. Don't like it? Suck an ass, or leave.

Xantar

02-09-2002, 02:49 PM

Calm down, Chris. You were doing all right, but insulting is never called for in this forum. Don't argue with me. It's against the rules, period.

I was hoping this topic would manage to stay open. Maybe it still can. I'm leaving it open for now.

But hey, I just got an idea! I'll let someone who believes in God (i.e. BigJustinW) look over this topic now. And if he thinks he should close it, he will.

I'll still be able to reply to it, of course. :D

The_Dunadan

02-09-2002, 04:06 PM

guys, a lot of you said this topic was pointless and its not going to convert somebody. well, those weren't my intentions. i just wanted to see things from a nonchristian point of view and see what you guys think. then i'm taking these posts and researching anwers for them, for me. so please don't turn this into a big debate. i'd just let it dye. if you want a debate, start your own thread.

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 05:03 PM

"I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God."

The reason I said this is that certain forum members who shall remain nameless have tried to turn this thread into a debate on religion. I posted why I didn't believe in god, with an explanation. Then some people have the audacity to tell me that I'm wrong, and that I am ignorant and stupid and obviously haven't "understood" the bible properly. I was just trying to get them to shut up about it all.

Can you point out the bits in my post that try to convince you there isn't a god? All I am doing is saying why I don't. Though it seems some people have a problem with that.

"But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with."

And I still see this as either an invalid argument or arrogance of the highest order. Being solid in your beliefs surely comes as believing them yes? So if someone casts a new and convincing light on this evidence, then you wouldn't change them? Despite being "solid" in them? Saying that you won't change your mind is just a tad stubborn, don't you think?

"I don't expect to be able to solve every Biblical paradox and every arguement ever brought against Christainity."

And yet I am expected to solve every single argument ever brought against the scientific community, it would seem. Sigh.

"And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed."

Not as far as I can see. It goes something like this:
You cannot prove there is a god
You cannot prove there is not
So what do I believe?
Do I believe what I can see with my own eyes, or do I believe what my faith teaches me?

Chris and I have merely taken the former option, and we are just trying to explain why we do so. The words "brick" "head" "bang" and "wall" spring to mind.

"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

No. We have already explained to you that we both believe the best answer to be god does not exist in the first place. To me at least, that makes a billion times more sense that the "well god exists really but obviously there's no real way to tell" method.
Why should we just accept it because that's the best answer the religoius community can come up with?

"No, there wouldn't have been a 9/11 attack, because odds are the WTC wouldn't have existed."

Irrelevant.

" How can you blame WW2 on Religion? Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion.""

Hitler was a devout christian. He believed in the moral, spiritual and physical superiority of the Aryan race. He used both of these to convince the people to go to war with him. Not only did he tell them they were the finest race on earth, but he said they had god on their side too. Seems like a pretty god incentive to me.

"Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist."

Good example of a non-logical assumption.

"Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate."

What was this for? It serves no rational purpose, therefore I cann only conclude that you too are indulging in petty insults.

"Actually it was written by a variaty of authors spanning the last tenthousand or so years and put together by the council of carthage in-- 414 AD I believe. Then again, I could be wrong about the date."

You could also be wrong about the monkeys. Please, be a little more intelligent in your mercurial way of deciding what is fact and what is fiction and what cannot be determined.

"The origional manuscripts are still around-- for the most part anyway-- and I welcome you to take a gander at them and tell me that all of the books of the Bible were written by some village idiot who wanted to keep his friends in line."

Oh I believe quite the opposite - IMO they couldn't have been written by an idiot. They are too well a crafted method of control.

"Again, using the same logic, you can't prove that he doesn't exist so I come to the conclusion that he is real."

This is not logic. This is faith. Logic would dictate "I cannot determine if there is or is not a god. Therefore I shall start from a blank slate and see if I can find out how the universe works, and perhaps that way I can determine which is true"
What you are saying is I don't have an answer, therefore this question must be the right one. To me, it makes no sense to say that just because you don't have an answer for something then it must be due to a god. Maybe it's just me.

"but I'll do what I can to help you reach them yourself."

Surely it would be better if you just left him to do his own thinking?

"If Scientists discover somthing that gives conclusive evidence that God does exist, and he did make this planet, and half of the scientist are still skeptical about it, which stance would you take?"

Why would half of the scientists still be sceptical about it? Again, you misunderstand the scientific method.
The stance I take ios based on reliable material evidence. Nothing more, nothing less. If irefutable evidence were shown of gods existence, then yes I would believe it, as would every scientist worth their salt. This paragraph I imagine will lead you into "then what would prove that god did exist for you then?" I imagine. Sigh.

" I suggest closing the topic."

He's got a point. People are getting too aggressive over all of this. It is not meant to be a debate about religion, it os meant to be explaining to the theists why I am not one of them.

"This WHOLE topic is about us non-believers telling you why we don't believe."

You would have to say that this logic is irefutable, Leon and BJW.

"It's MY logic, I (*I*) think it's logical."

This is a good pint, that I don't believe anyione has made yet. Logic is as much a personal thing as belief. You may think I am illogical in assuming there is no god, I of course take the exact opposite stance. Logic is as much a matter of opinion as whether you prefer Heinz or HP sauce on your chips.
Simply put: I can no longer understand how anyone in possession of the knowledge that I have can believe in a god, because the two are mutually exclusive in my mind. To me, science has disproved god and I can no longer accept that gods exist, because it is in contradiction to observable facts and my logisitical procedure.

"and sdtpikachu did a pretty fine job of that."

Not fine enough I imagine. Give it a few posts and I'll be expected to explain quantum mechanics in how matter can form from nothing. As well as all the rest of it.

"The universe always has been, and you should probably accept it as so."

Why stop there? sdtPikachu always has been, and you should probably just accept it. ;)

""So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you.""

Like I said, on a fundamental level it is impossible to prove that anything exists at all. This however is not a very useful standpoint. So we just have to accept that what we can see does exist. And for me, by extension, things I can't see, never have seen and never see any evidence of DON'T exist.

"Well if you haven't tried every religion, then how would you know if another one didn't work better?"

You would have to agree this is a fair point, Leon. Who knows, you may find becoming a member of the natural law party (http://www.natural-law.org/) more fulfilling than your current beliefs. Who knows until you try?

"I agree... "

I fourth... but it would be nice to see if the people who want to know have actually figured out why I think like I do first.

"This isn't a debate idiot"

No Chris, it isn't and wasn't ment to be. It may be galling to be insulted, but it won't get you any further by retaliating in the same fashion. Chill man.

"guys, a lot of you said this topic was pointless and its not going to convert somebody. well, those weren't my intentions"

Ah someone with their head screwed on at last. For all those of you having difficulty understanding THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON WHY RELIGON/SCIENCE IS RIGHT/WRONG. The chap just wants to find some stuff out for himself in order to understand people like me better.

Surely this isn't something that should be vehemently argued over?

BigJustinW

02-09-2002, 05:38 PM

Why would half of the scientists still be sceptical about it?

Carbon dating

Half scientist belive that it's very accurate, half scientists believe it's very inaccurate. I'm sure you have taken a stance on this issue.

If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)

So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?

Skeptisisim or Acceptisism(<---I made this word up)

gekko

02-09-2002, 05:55 PM

"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

Exactly the problem with religion. You can't explain everything. Christianity is 2000 years old. I'm sorry, but things change. We know better on a lot of issues now, and now religion has run out of answers.

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 05:59 PM

Just what is it that you don't understand BJW?

"Half scientist belive that it's very accurate, half scientists believe it's very inaccurate."

I'd like to see your evidence. Unless of course you're referring to creation "scientists", who don't adhere to the scientific method.

Every single scientist I know he knows anything about carbon dating will admit that is has it's faults - it is useless on anything over 20-30,000 years old. This you could term as a failing, rather than an inaccuracy. As far as more recent specimens go, it will give us the correct date to within a margin of about 3% in 99% of all cases.

But you still seem to think that these "failings" in carbon dating render all other methods of radiometric dating as useless too. This is the same logic that creation scientists apply, and I think even you would be able to see its fallacy. Our theories about the nature of the earth DO NOT rely on carbon dating in any way, shape or form.

"If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)"

Firstly, you are again stating that I am wrong, and are showing a grand total of zero for respect and understanding of my beliefs.

Secondly, I am not taking sides. What exactly is the purpose of this comment, other than to call me a stupid twat? Explain please.

"So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?"

If a scientist studying evolution came across something that could not in any way be attributed to a naturally explainable event, then it would be every scientists duty as a scientist to accept this finding. I believe what the evidence shows. For the billionth f***ing time.

"Skeptisisim or Acceptisism"

Scepticism always. Never stop asking questions.

BigJustinW

02-09-2002, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
But you still seem to think that these "failings" in carbon dating render all other methods of radiometric dating as useless too. This is the same logic that creation scientists apply, and I think even you would be able to see its fallacy. Our theories about the nature of the earth DO NOT rely on carbon dating in any way, shape or form.

What do they rely on?

"If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)"

Firstly, you are again stating that I am wrong, and are showing a grand total of zero for respect and understanding of my beliefs.

Secondly, I am not taking sides. What exactly is the purpose of this comment, other than to call me a stupid twat? Explain please.

Well, let's see, you claim to be skeptical about everything, but you believe in things you haven't seen or studied for yourself.

"So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?"

If a scientist studying evolution came across something that could not in any way be attributed to a naturally explainable event, then it would be every scientists duty as a scientist to accept this finding. I believe what the evidence shows. For the billionth f***ing time.

temper temper

When you get pissed off, you lose the debate, period.

"Skeptisisim or Acceptisism"

Scepticism always. Never stop asking questions.

When you learned about Gravity, were you skepticle?

do you believe that the world is round?

Have you been to outter space?

Do you know that outter space is real?

has man landed on the moon?

from the abouve questions, what personal experience proves it?

do you believe thing through the personal experiences of other people (astronauts etc.)?

and don't tell me these questions are pointless, because the point is coming after the next post you make.

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 06:30 PM

"What do they rely on?"

Uranium-lead dating. Thorium dating. Strontium-rubidium dating. Helium dating. Fission track dating. There are many, and not one of them depends on the same variables that C14 dating does.

"Well, let's see, you claim to be skeptical about everything, but you believe in things you haven't seen or studied for yourself."

I trust the experts on quantum mechanics to give good quantum mechanics data. I trust tose who study biology to give good biology data. Etc, etc.
The entire scientific realm is too vast to be understood by a single human. It takes the combined efforts of thousands of people forming, combinig, testing, rejecting and unifying theories to make any sense out of this vastly complicated system we're in.

And there are those who jst say "bollocks to it - if I believe in god, I can explain it all away myself." Fine by me, you go ahead and do so. Just not my cuppa tea. I don't want to believe. Not when I can know.

"When you get pissed off, you lose the debate, period."

Illogical assumption. I am impatient that you totally fail to grasp my reasoning why I believe what I believe. Just because someone loses their cool a bit, they're automatically wrong? In that case, all the born agains, all the jehovahs witnesses, all of my grandparents who tried to convince me that god exists were wrong too?

"When you learned about Gravity, were you skepticle?"

No, because gravity can be seen. I am sceptical of the theory of gravitation if that's what you mean.

"do you believe that the world is round?"

Because for the main part pictures taken have shown it to be round. But it would also be mathematically impossible for the world to exist if it weren't.
Ever wondered why the shadow cast on the moon is curved? Funnily enough, if you work it out geometrically, it seems to suggest that the earth is an ellipsoidal body of rock with a radius of approximately 6400km.

"from the abouve questions, what personal experience proves it?"

Why do I need a personal experience to prove it? I don't go about proving things on personal experience, I go about by actually looking at stuff.

I would be intruiged to find out what your "point" is. In the meantime, brush up on your arguing technique here. (http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html)

Bacchus

02-09-2002, 07:28 PM

If you were to prove the existance of god then you would deny faith. If you deny faith then you deny religion and if you go around denying religion then you deny god.

Does this still sound like the kind of thing a good god fearing person should do?

Bad luck, you (BJW) lose, poor god >:) The end

Blackmane

02-09-2002, 08:58 PM

Ok, I'm really sick of all these religion debates going on. Lets get my idea straight. I believe in God and I don't believe that there is anyway to prove God because the whole reason for religion is to have FAITH.

What would be the point of religion if we knew there was God and could see and touch him? God is not a tangible thing, he is a supernatural being that is not of this world. I laugh when I hear of people trying to prove God's existence because it can't be done. That is the main reason why I find these debates pretty much pointless. Skeptics will never have faith because you will continue to ask questions that can't be answered and then say "Well, God can't exist then."

Believe me, I do have some skepticism in me, but I have to remember what faith im my God is. It is not about proving or seeing for yourself. Its more of a feeling.

Xantar

02-09-2002, 09:46 PM

*claps*

Well spoken. Have some doubloons.

And get some more from Kitana85.

TheGrimReaper

02-09-2002, 09:48 PM

I totally agree Blackmane.

Somethings in life, you just can't explain by experiments or whatever. You just have to beleive.

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 10:21 PM

Which is why I don't believe. I can't believe something without evidence. And as I see it there is no evidence for god, which as has been correctly noted, is not something that requires evidence in order to be believed. There.

Can we all stop bickering now?

TheGrimReaper

02-09-2002, 10:27 PM

Yes, yes we can.

manasecret

02-09-2002, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Joeiss
Well, I do not like to post when threads get large such as this one... But I guess I'll throw in my two cents into this conversation. Now remember, I have not read all of the posts, well, because there is just too damn many of them. So I'll just write what comes to my mind on different issues.

After Life

Pika and I had a conversation about this on ICQ, so I'll post what I think here. I belive that a person does not have to be a certain religion, or be in the "right" religion to go into an afterlife. I belive this: (this is a clippet of mine and Pika's conversation)

"I think that a person who accepts all people, will die. And when they die, whatever they belive in (heaven, or blackness, etc.) will happen. I think that a person who does not accept all, will also die. And when they die, whatever they believe in, the oposite will happen.

I mean, BigJustin says that everybody will go to hell. But from a Christian's point of view, I think that everybody who is not open to other religions/people will go to hell, or their equivalent of a bad place. Which is why I think we should all be positive to eachother, then we will not fear what happens after death, but welcome it."

I also think that everybody who follows the example which Martin Luther King set, will be living an amazing afterlife, the way that they want it to be.

Religions (Right, Wrong)

I do not know what I truly belive, but right now, I think that there is no true religion. I believe in Jesus Christ, and He taught us to love all and respect eachother, including those who are "lower class", and prostitutes, criminals, etc. I think that there should be a religion that just promotes peace and unity. I think that if we focus on this, then God will look down on us and be happy with what He sees... That being because I believe in God. And for Atheists, well, they can just know that what they are doing is helping them, and they will be great people if they join this "help everybody" religion.

Also, as I already said, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in His Father, God. But do you know what? Who the hell I am I to say that Jesus is my Saviour? I mean, there are so many different religions, so many different people who believe in God, so many people who do not believe in God, so how do I know that He is God? And hell, how do I know that there is a God? I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that.

Creation

Wow... Just go outside and look around. Look at the stars. Look at the trees, the grass, the houses, the people. It is amazing how many things there are on this land. It is amazing how many events have taken place, and how many adoptations animals and mamals have done. So how the f*ck did this all start? I have no friggen clue. Was is created by God? Was it created in a big BANG? Here are some of my thoughts.

God Theory : God created everything. God created the Universe, God created the planets, God created animals and man. This all makes sence, except for the nagging fact of WHO THE F*CK CREATED GOD? I mean, did God have a father? I doubt it. And even if He did, then who created Him? I mean, I think that it is amazing that I am alive right now, and that I am breathing and that I can function. This is crazy, I mean, how could this have happened? I have no clue.

BANG theory : Another one that ends up in a question of "Who created the Universe so this could all happen". I am really confused about this theory too because I am just too damn skeptical of things being created without anybody to create them. But then, how am I alive?

So, as one can see, my views on creation are messed up and I am just flat out confused about it. I just cannot see how something can just appear out of thin air. It is so damn confusing. And the only way that we can probably find out is if we die. That sucks.

Conclusion

Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious.

This is the first post from a God-believing forum-goer that I could really appreciate. Why?

Love. This is the first post to focus on it. Love everyone, respect everyone, be open to everyone, and accept everyone. Definition of everyone: the people that you love, the people you don't love, people of "lower class" or "higher class", whores, druggies, rapists, and so on. Don't judge, lest ye be judged. It seems everyone here is so busy in defending their religion (here being Christianity) that they forget the real purpose of the whole thing. Love.

"I do not know what I truly belive, but right now, I think that there is no true religion."
I think in agreement. I don't know what I believe, but I know I don't believe in religion. A great man once said, "When God meets money, you get religion."

God or god

Also, as I already said, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in His Father, God. But do you know what? Who the hell I am I to say that Jesus is my Saviour? I mean, there are so many different religions, so many different people who believe in God, so many people who do not believe in God, so how do I know that He is God? And hell, how do I know that there is a God? I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that.

I'm in a similar situation. I used to (somewhat) firmly believe in Christianity and in Jesus as God, but I've slowly questioned that and looked elsewhere. Firstly the whole corruption of religion turned me away. Then I wonder about the infinite universe (or multiverse) and how I can not possibly see it without other life in it.

Then I wonder about how similar we are to other animals, and how it just seems like we're nothing more than another species. I mean, we depend on the meat of animals and the air from plants and nutrients from bacteria, etc. If they weren't there, we would never live. To me, that helps proves we're nothing more than part of nature, not made by a god who is deeply concerned in our lives. Then I go from there and wonder about how saying we are created by god makes us feel superior to everything, almost turning ourselves into our own gods, which goes against the whole humbleness that most love-promoting religions preach.

But then I digress. I learn about the supposed multiverse and the complete unexplained quantum happenings. Ok, there's a big bang, but what about before that? Why was the big bang where it was? Why is the big bang even there? Why is anything here? Why I am I here thinking and typing? Why is there any reason for any of this? And I have to turn to something greater than what we are.

Higher, but Not God

We as humans think we are such powerful and superior beings, but what have we accomplished? Big buildings and big explosions? Sure, relative to us we look like real badass beings, but we don't know or understand anything of real importance. We may understand some physics, but referring back to those questions I asked: can anyone help me know exactly what (and which) infinity before the inifinity of the multiverse helped make this inifinity cause the next infinity of the whole infinity?

"Guh?" is right.

As of now, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in something higher and something far greater than we will ever be or even comprehend. In a way, that is god. But I don't think of god as an entity, just something that is higher, an idea, an expression, or even something so high we have no understanding of what we would call it.

I also see something higher in more than just what we don't understand. There is so much beauty in the world, from the sunsets to the flowers to the love I have for a girl or the love I have for my baby niece, the unexplained and immense beauty that can be seen in just about anything in the things we see or hear, touch or taste, feel and sense (or don't sense) makes me believe there is again something higher than we are.

But maybe this is a low-level "higher," as we can perceive this with our senses. Or maybe this is what all of higher is made of, just it becomes more complicated. Or maybe if we had senses other than the five we have we could then perceive other types of beauty and higher.

Conclusion

I don't know what I believe, I constantly ponder such things. But for some reason or another (of which I also ponder), I believe we as humans are driven to love one another and eventually live in harmony. People such as Jesus and Ghandi were on the right track; it's too bad it's hard to follow the path.

And I conclude with a quote from a great man,

"Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious. "
-Joeiss

sdtPikachu

02-09-2002, 11:56 PM

Nice post manasecret.

Hopefully you don't think I'm not trying to preach love, acceptance and tolerance as well...?

People such as Jesus, Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. were on the right track, and there are plenty of other people who follow their examples.
There are also plenty of other people who don't, who manage to ruin everything that those of us who see humanity as worth being nice to strive for.

It isjust my hope that with incresed knowledge of everything that people will come to learn about and respect eevryone elses beliefs, and learn to treat every single other human on the face of the earth with the same respect you would treat a loved one. That's my core philosophy.

I am not trying to defend my beliefs, I have just tried to explain to some how they work. There are those however who seem to take this as an attack on their particular relgion of choice; if I wanted to do this, I wouldn't waste my time here. I'd buzz off to Infidels, UseNet or Talk Origins. Heck, there I could at least attempt to make a name for myself...!

Can we call the procedings to a close now? I don't want there to be any more slagging off of anyone elses beliefs. Jutin, if you wish to argue further may I suggest you do it somwhere else. My ICQ tag is in my profile if you want it.

Another great quote from another great man IMO:

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
--Dalai Lama

manasecret

02-10-2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
Nice post manasecret.

Thanks.

Hopefully you don't think I'm not trying to preach love, acceptance and tolerance as well...?

I know you do, and I didn't mean to discount that or anyone else if it is such. What I meant is that no one in the thread had thoroughly focused on what I find most important in this world, that being love. And I appreciated that very much from Joeiss.

Another great quote from another great man IMO:

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
--Dalai Lama

A wonderful quote. I know so little about religions such as buddhism and the one of the Dalai Lamas (don't even know if they have a name) and others such as of Tibet. But everything I do hear from them makes so much sense. Perhaps all religions aren't corrupt.

Again, thanks for the quote. Wonderful, wonderful quote.

BigJustinW

02-10-2002, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by sdtPikachu

"When you get pissed off, you lose the debate, period."

Illogical assumption. I am impatient that you totally fail to grasp my reasoning why I believe what I believe. Just because someone loses their cool a bit, they're automatically wrong? In that case, all the born agains, all the jehovahs witnesses, all of my grandparents who tried to convince me that god exists were wrong too?

No, if they were debating, they lost... that doesn't mean they are wrong.

"When you learned about Gravity, were you skepticle?"

No, because gravity can be seen. I am sceptical of the theory of gravitation if that's what you mean.

Sure

Why do I need a personal experience to prove it? I don't go about proving things on personal experience, I go about by actually looking at stuff.

Repeat this answer, and talk to me as if I were a 5 year old

and yes... you will get my point soon enough

BigJustinW

02-10-2002, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Bacchus
If you were to prove the existance of god then you would deny faith. If you deny faith then you deny religion and if you go around denying religion then you deny god.

Does this still sound like the kind of thing a good god fearing person should do?

Bad luck, you (BJW) lose, poor god >:) The end
Funny, last time I checked I wasn't trying to prove god's existance

BigJustinW

02-10-2002, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Blackmane
Ok, I'm really sick of all these religion debates going on. Lets get my idea straight. I believe in God and I don't believe that there is anyway to prove God because the whole reason for religion is to have FAITH.

What would be the point of religion if we knew there was God and could see and touch him? God is not a tangible thing, he is a supernatural being that is not of this world. I laugh when I hear of people trying to prove God's existence because it can't be done. That is the main reason why I find these debates pretty much pointless. Skeptics will never have faith because you will continue to ask questions that can't be answered and then say "Well, God can't exist then."

Believe me, I do have some skepticism in me, but I have to remember what faith im my God is. It is not about proving or seeing for yourself. Its more of a feeling.

I agree 100%

but the point of this debate is to tell why or why you don't believe in God...

I'm not trying to prove God exists

It can be proven, but the person has to be willing to take steps him/herself

"The truth is in the eye of the beholder"

if that is true, in my life, God is the truth, period

sdtPikachu

02-10-2002, 01:59 AM

And the point of all this is...?

"Sure"

I am assuming you're being sarcastic, and doubt the abilty of someone of scientific mind to doubt the theory of gravitation. Well it's already been shown that gravitation doesn't work when the scales are very large or very small. Hence people were scetical when it came to gravity.

If they weren't sceptical, quantum mechanics would never have been developed. If they had just accepted gravitation as being true, no-one would have bothered looking into it.

Similary, if everyione had just accepted the bible as the literal truth I wonder where we'd be.

"Repeat this answer, and talk to me as if I were a 5 year old"

I fail to see the reasons for your petulancy. Why do I have to have a directly apploicab;e and quantifiable personal experience (at least, this is what I assume you're asking for) for every single thing I believe? I merely look at evidence, either at first hand within my field, or second hand within the fields I know too little about.

"Funny, last time I checked I wasn't trying to prove god's existance"

But he's saying that if you do, you deny him.

"I'm not trying to prove God exists
It can be proven..."

In which case, you deny him. I think the quote goes: God says I refuse to prove I exist, for proof debies faith and wthout faith I am nothing. Then he does something which proves he exists, therefore by definition he doesn't. QED.

I'd like to see you prove it scientifically though... i.e. to other people, and not just yourself. In the scientific community, anecdotal evidence isn't acceptable.

"but the person has to be willing to take steps him/herself"

Well, I've done this backwards. I believed once, I don't any more. My findings ion the world of science are incompatible with my beliefs in a divine deity. And my findings in science make far more sense to me than religion ever did. In fact, you may even call it a revelation.

""The truth is in the eye of the beholder"
if that is true, in my life, God is the truth, period"

In your life, yes. But I thought the dunadan set up this thread in order to ask about MY life...? Again, you are trying to turn this into a debate, and because I am the person I am, I feel obliged to put you right over the things that I believe you to have misconceptions about; namely science in general.

So your all-conclusive and scientifically justifiable fantastic point that will prove me and all other hellbound atheists wrong beyond belief is...? I eagerly await the chance to be able to stop having to think about everything again.