Discussion: PS2 Hardware Showing its Age

[Perfect Stu]

Everyone knows that the PS2 is about 20 months older than its two competitors (XBox, Gamecube). Those who work in the field of electronics have shown that technology doubles every year. For example: A form of technology costs $200. A year later, the same technology would sell for $100, and new technology which would be approximately twice as fast or advanced would sell for $200. It's called something like Moore's Law. If anyone knows for sure, be sure to share.

Having said that, one would conclude that the PS2 would obviously be far inferior technologically than the Xbox and Gamecube. It is inferior, there's no question about it. Far inferior? Arguable.

Now the real topic of discussion begins. Has the PS2 hardware shown its age yet, or is it still competitive with the other 2 systems? If so, explain why and describe whether or not it affects games, consumers and sales. If not, when do you think PS2 will show its age (if ever) and when WILL it start affecting games, consumers and sales.

I'll start out with something vague. Since the launch of XBox and Gamecube, PS2 hasn't been able to keep up with the two (mainly XBox) graphics-wise. For a while I began to think that the PS2 would never start pumping out graphics that could compete either of its two competitors...until Konami showed us Silent Hill 3 and Zone of the Enders 2 (screenshots to be added later). SH3 boasts incredibly detailed character models and surprisingly sharp textures. ZOE2 offers incredible visuals, with unmatched particle effects, unique artwork and graphics style and incredibly chaotic on-screen action. With MGS3 all-but confirmed, and GT4 in the works, I know that we'll be seeing more eye-popping graphics for the oldest of the 3 next gen systems.

[bobcat]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
Everyone knows that the PS2 is about 20 months older than its two competitors (XBox, Gamecube). Those who work in the field of electronics have shown that technology doubles every year. For example: A form of technology costs $200. A year later, the same technology would sell for $100, and new technology which would be approximately twice as fast or advanced would sell for $200. It's called something like Moore's Law. If anyone knows for sure, be sure to share.

Having said that, one would conclude that the PS2 would obviously be far inferior technologically than the Xbox and Gamecube. It is inferior, there's no question about it. Far inferior? Arguable.

Now the real topic of discussion begins. Has the PS2 hardware shown its age yet, or is it still competitive with the other 2 systems? If so, explain why and describe whether or not it affects games, consumers and sales. If not, when do you think PS2 will show its age (if ever) and when WILL it start affecting games, consumers and sales.

I'll start out with something vague. Since the launch of XBox and Gamecube, PS2 hasn't been able to keep up with the two (mainly XBox) graphics-wise. For a while I began to think that the PS2 would never start pumping out graphics that could compete either of its two competitors...until Konami showed us Silent Hill 3 and Zone of the Enders 2 (screenshots to be added later). SH3 boasts incredibly detailed character models and surprisingly sharp textures. ZOE2 offers incredible visuals, with unmatched particle effects, unique artwork and graphics style and incredibly chaotic on-screen action. With MGS3 all-but confirmed, and GT4 in the works, I know that we'll be seeing more eye-popping graphics for the oldest of the 3 next gen systems.

I think the Dreamcast was pretty good for what it was as well, especially compared to the Ps2.

Unfortunately when you have ports of games (E.G. Splinter Cell) it's "assumed" that the Ps2 will look the worst due to it's hardware. Therefore with that in mind, ported games will look inferior on the Ps2 out of all the other systems. With games designed for the ps2, I have seen some excellent visuals. E.G. FFX, Kingdom Hearts, MGS2, SH2...........

And now with SH3 coming up, it does go to show you that Ps2 isn't greatly affected or hindered by it's early release.

[Dyne]

Yeah, I was playing Vice City the other day with my friends, and I was like "Holy Crap, this came out a few months ago? And it's a best-seller?". Haha, then the PS2 froze.

I wouldn't count on relying on the PS2 until it's dying days in 2005 before the PS3 is out... people are already starting to warm up to the two others. I mean, after this year, there's nothing to look forward to.

[Seven7]

How DARE you make fun of GTA: Vice City....goes to find bat...J/K

yeah i guess you could say the games seem to be getting abit behind in graphics.

There's only so many games coming out for PS2 that i'm interested in that seems to be a very good game graphic wise and such now, some current favorites include the Dynasty Warriors series even tho the newer games are starting to show their age.

If I was not serious about getting investing in a new computer i would get the Xbox (finally), in order to have a new system, otherwise i'm waiting for the PS3.

[gekko]

The reason PS2 isn't "showing its age" is due to the horrible hardware design. It took the developers a lot of work to figure out a way to get decent graphics out of it. They are still figuring out ways to improve graphics, so the games are looking better, not worse.

With that said, PS2 still doesn't compare with Xbox or Gamecube. It just doesn't have the power to compete. Only time PS2 looks good is in screenshots.

[tarakan69]

That because the screens that were posted were 1024x768... while the game will run at 640x480... the resolution will be TWICE as low. So you can't judge the game by screenschots wos resolution is twice as high.

So no the PS2 came close to being maxed out long ago with games like Jak&Daxter.

It's naive to believe that there some hidden untapped power that console... cause the whole damn game industry is concentrating on the PS2 and is pouring millions into... since it has a userbase 2.5 times bigger than the competition together.

Also if you believe Silent Hill 3 will look like this... your a MORON

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/sh3_0829_3.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/sh3_0829_4.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/sh3_0829_8.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/news/01/22/silenthill3/sh3_screen001.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/news/01/22/silenthill3/sh3_screen009.jpg

So a resolution which is twice as low will make blurry bad looking textures, as opposed to those screenshots so chill... enjoy the game. It's will look nearly identical to Silent Hill 2 with small enchanments...

[Perfect Stu]

I rarely judge graphics on screenshots

I watch videos of the games...and Silent Hill 3 looks outstanding in video form. Same goes for ZOE2. Have you seen videos of them?

If you DON'T believe the system has untapped power than you're a moron. Compare launch games to games of today. I'm guessing in 2005 we'll see the same leap from today's games.

PS2 was created a little ahead of its time. If people were familiar with the system's architecture before the console was released, it would be pumping out great graphics. Unfortunately the PS2 is unique and has a lot of power that developers can barely use, due to their unfamiliarity with the hardware.

[tarakan69]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
I rarely judge graphics on screenshots

I watch videos of the games...and Silent Hill 3 looks outstanding in video form. Same goes for ZOE2. Have you seen videos of them?

If you DON'T believe the system has untapped power than you're a moron. Compare launch games to games of today. I'm guessing in 2005 we'll see the same leap from today's games.

PS2 was created a little ahead of its time. If people were familiar with the system's architecture before the console was released, it would be pumping out great graphics. Unfortunately the PS2 is unique and has a lot of power that developers can barely use, due to their unfamiliarity with the hardware.

I agree that you should base your opinions on videos and not screenshots... but. From the movie I have seen the main improve isn't poly counts, textures, or anything else; it's lightning. Adds a lot of atmosphere... not much worse than doom 3 if you ask.

Also speaking of tapping the PS2. It's a very controversal subject... but let's face facts... the who industry has been concentrating on the PS2 and it's 4 Vram really limit it. Not all the streaming abilities in the world can allow you to enable antialising(it's also software antialising which makes it simply laughable) , high res textures, and bump mapping(not to forget PS2 simply doesn't support bump-mapping).
Also let's not forget that it doesn't have vertex shaders like X-Box to allow a wide vairety of effects. (go play Morrowind with pixel shading effects on to see what I me)

So not to sound like a PS2 basher... it's my favorite console(sorry my X-Box but Splinter Cell sucks).

Also for all you PS2 owners go rent Wipeout Fusion... BEST GAME on the PS2 imo.

[Joeiss]

Why doesn't the PS2 just release an add on for its RAM... Kind of like what Nintendo did for N64. This would give more RAM to use... Yep... Unless what I said is not possibly.... Then nevermind.. lol.

[gekko]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
PS2 was created a little ahead of its time. If people were familiar with the system's architecture before the console was released, it would be pumping out great graphics. Unfortunately the PS2 is unique and has a lot of power that developers can barely use, due to their unfamiliarity with the hardware.

More like a little behind its time. The system's architecture sucks. It's similar to N64s, but even worse.

[tarakan69]

Originally posted by gekko
More like a little behind its time. The system's architecture sucks. It's similar to N64s, but even worse.

That is closer truth...

The problem with the PS2's launch arose not from it's unique alien architecture which had so much power but nobody could utilize it... but from the fact that the design at heart was flawed and outdated.

There were no software development libraries... So developers had to make their own. Let's look at the X-Box... everything that PC developers had come up with for Direct X 8 could be used.All the extensions, techinque. For the PS2 you had an outdated piece of hardware with ram limitations and no software libraries.

So developers don't "learn" to tap the PS2. The technique either exists or does not. The improvements we see with each passing month is because developers basicly had nothing to tap the PS2 with from the beggining. (not like there is a whole lot to tap anyways)


Originally posted by Joeiss
Why doesn't the PS2 just release an add on for its RAM... Kind of like what Nintendo did for N64. This would give more RAM to use... Yep... Unless what I said is not possibly.... Then nevermind.. lol.

??? Nope... even if you open your PS2 their in no easy way to intall anything into. Also you can't expect the average dumb PS2 owner to actually buy an upgrade to play newer games.

[Perfect Stu]

Now we're comparing the PS2 to the XBox? Damn...I guess people completely missed the point of my topic

Gekko, make your own thread stating 'The system's architecture sucks. It's similar to N64s, but even worse'...I'll be glad to lock it

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by tarakan69

??? Nope... even if you open your PS2 their in no easy way to intall anything into. Also you can't expect the average dumb PS2 owner to actually buy an upgrade to play newer games.


Oh ok. Just an idea. I am not good on these specs things... lol.

[tarakan69]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
Now we're comparing the PS2 to the XBox? Damn...I guess people completely missed the point of my topic

Gekko, make your own thread stating 'The system's architecture sucks. It's similar to N64s, but even worse'...I'll be glad to lock it

Stu it's impossible to show how the PS2 holds its own, without making a reference to other console. We always take in note the age of the PS2. It's not a debate as to whcih console is better or more power... I just think it's necessarry for reference and comparision.

[Bad Religion]

maybe it's just me, but I've never really been impressed with the graphics of the ps2...Ico still comes to my mind as the best graphical game, and that was basically a launch game wasn't it? I guess MGS2 was incredible at the time I saw the demo, but it got surpassed so quickly that it lost effect by the time it was released, same with FFX... doesn't matter though because there are so many kick ass games coming out. Oh and I think I remember the Pres. of Rockstar saying that the hardware is basically maxed out in last months PSM

[Joeiss]

Have you not seen Ratchet and Clank?

[Perfect Stu]

I think Ratchet and Clank looks better than Super Mario Sunshine, if we had to compare similar games...

but I don't want to turn this into a PS2 vs. GC vs. Xbox graphics contest...we all know PS2 comes in third, and obviously doesn't impress anyone these days (if ever).

the question was whether or not the aging of the PS2 hardware is having an affect on games, consumers and sales.

Graphics whores will always go for XBox, high end PC or maybe even Gamecube. Gekko mentioned one of the reasons why he can't play SOCOM anymore were the GOD AWFUL visuals with BLURRY TEXTURES AND JAGGIES. To him, that's a valid complaint. To me it would be splitting hairs. It's not like the game was unplayable.

[TheGame]

Ps2, much like Psx, doesn't need drop-dead graphics to compete.

I know this isn't the base of the topic, but it's the truth about the situation. While gekko says:

With that said, PS2 still doesn't compare with Xbox or Gamecube. It just doesn't have the power to compete.

I can say with confidence that Xbox and GCN simply don't have the game quality to compete.

Console power is overrated among hardcore gamers and it has little to nothing to do with what makes a console "good". Take N64 for example, it didn't sell 50 million units because it's graphics were great, it was because it had the game quality and marketability to compete... period.

Do graphics make a difference? Yes... but nobody in thier right mind would chose Luigi's Mansion over Zelda OoT (even back then) for game of the year. Great games make a great system, graphics are just a bonus.

The funny part is, people look back at Dreamcast's competition against Ps2's launch and acctually say that Dreamcast games look better! What a joke, the fact is you simply liked DC's games more and that enhanced the look of the game in your mind.

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Now, as for the topic, I agree with Stu, I don't like to compare screenshots. Why? Because in the early days of Ps2 the way the shots were captured were horrible. The only way to truly judge a game is by seeing it in action. Sometimes Screenshots make a game look a lot better (FFX) and sometimes screenshots make a game look a lot worse (Too many games to list).

IMO, Ps2 has shown maturity in it's sequals. Compare GTA3 to Vice City, or Madden 2002 to 2003... Smackdown 3 to SMackdown 4.. Huge positive differences.

[Perfect Stu]

I think that the positive changes are the key contributer to the PS2 not becoming outdated any time soon. I think gekko mentioned something about that. Most games in the PS2's first 6-8 months were very poor graphically (with the OBVIOUS exception of Gran Turismo 3) but now some games (MGS2, BG: DA, R&C, ICO) hold their own, graphically, aganist competing systems' games.

I don't know whether or not the PS2's hardware weakness will affect the system in the long run. If every XBox game starts to look like Halo 2 and every Gamecube game Metroid Prime, then the difference could be staggering. I figure PS2's software has kept it on top so far, and that's probably what, if anything, will keep it there.

[TheGame]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
I don't know whether or not the PS2's hardware weakness will affect the system in the long run. If every XBox game starts to look like Halo 2 and every Gamecube game Metroid Prime, then the difference could be staggering. I figure PS2's software has kept it on top so far, and that's probably what, if anything, will keep it there.

We will never have to worry about that, as long as Ps2 is ahead of the pack. If you think about it, how many big thier party games are there out for GCN/Xbox that aren't Ps2/Dreamcast ports?

as long as Ps2 gets the game first, the games will never reach thier full potiental on other consoles.

Now, if every 1st party games starts looking great, maybe that could make a difference. But I still feel that looks alone won't make Ps2 out-dated. Look at Psx for instance... Psx's graphics were way out-dated when compared to N64 but the games weren't.There could be 2-3 more GTA games this generation with equal or maybe a little better graphics than GTA:VC and just a better story and the game would still not be out-dated next to GCN and Xbox games that look 10x as good because the gameplay saves it.

Exclusives won't make a difference because most gamers simply don't compare the looks of exclusive games (unless they happen to own the more powerful less-popular console)... The way to prove to gamers that one system out-preforms another is by displaying a multi-playform game that completly shows the difference. Even then most people won't be sold on the idea.

In the N64 days I used to brag about how Madden on 64 killed off the Psx's game in looks did anybody else go out and get the new console for the new Madden? Nope. Because even under the blanket of better visualls it was still the same game. There would have to be a HUGE difference for people to sell on these better graphics, a Huge difference that Xbox and GCN can't offer.

Which brings me to what could make the Ps2 out-dated:

Animation

XBX and GCN have displayed more clarity in every way, but when there is no improvement in anamation what's the point? Madden 2003 to the untrained eye looks exactly the same accross all three platforms because they all animate the same. GCN and Xbox definently have better textures and more clear/crisp colors but that isn't enough... still the same game.

Now, if Ps2 had some Dreamcast graphics and Psx animation... then there's a problem. As long as Ps2 keeps up in animation, everything should stay just fine.

As for first party titles there is a huge difference because they are different games. Which games come closest to reality? Oh wait, that doesn't matter because some games aren't trying to achive reality, they are all trying for different things. So in order to have a comparision two games would have to directly compete.

What racer is so realistic that it destroys GT3? What free roaming action game destroys GTA3? None. So as long as the games all have thier different styles other consoles can't make Ps2 look out-dated.

Like I said, it would take a port (maybe of a great selling game) to knock the Ps2's socks off, and that ain't happening.

Ps2 will not be out-dated until Ps3 comes out. Developers haven't even come close to Ps2's limits yet, so don't expect the visuals on Ps2 to stop getting better any time soon. Also, until 1st party developers start mimicing games like GTA:VC and GT3 don't expect the games to be out-dated.

[tarakan69]

People the hardware DOESN'T MATTER!! They are consoles of the same generation... although the PS2 is way behind.

The only thing that the PS2 needs is a reasonable price tag!! X-Box is more powerful and has an HD... The PS2 should cost half the price of the X-Box. Then the outdated hardware won't matter... but the same price it will turn off consumers.

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by tarakan69
The only thing that the PS2 needs is a reasonable price tag!! X-Box is more powerful and has an HD... The PS2 should cost half the price of the X-Box. Then the outdated hardware won't matter... but the same price it will turn off consumers.

It will turn off consumers? Sony currently owns 60% of the North American console market...it hasn't turned off consumers. When it does, I'm more than sure Sony will lower the system's price to $150 max.

[TheGame]

Yep, Sony has the whole industry by the throat... they keep the price at $200 because they still can. Sony also knows no matter how low they drop the price tag, Xbox will go down to equal, and GCN will drop lower.