Is Nintendo Out of Touch?

[Perfect Stu]

posted my Matt Cassamassina of IGNCUBE:

Is Nintendo out of Touch?

Answer: As I see it, yes. I don't come to this conclusion quickly. Rather, it's something I feel after observing the company's puzzling decisions and choices for years and years.

I've come to believe that the folks at Nintendo Japan are, for lack of a better word, old. They're old. They're stubborn. And they're clinging to the days when the brand 'Nintendo' meant everything. How else could you explain some of the choices the publisher has made?

We're not going to enter into the Internet gaming scene lightly, says Nintendo, because it's not profitable. And in the same breath the company releases niche titles like Pikmin into the market. A contradiction of business philosophy, no? Nevermind the fact that both Sony and Microsoft are doing brilliantly with their explorations into the online market.

It's this unwillingness to adapt, this intentional ignorance of what the market wants, that is the very proof that Nintendo is out of touch.

Need another example? Look no further than The Legend of Zelda. Nintendo showed the most incredible recreation of its Zelda franchise at Space World 2000, and to a delighted, cheering crowd. So what does the company do? Come back with a totally transformed version of the game that features a cartoon-styled, child Link and an all-too-cute Zelda universe -- the exact opposite of the direction the marketplace seems headed. For perhaps the first time in a Miyamoto presentation ever, the cheers were quieted. And yet, development on the title continued.

Of course, Wind Waker has turned out to be a fun game. But that doesn't change the fact: it's not the Zelda that Nintendo fans wanted. When "you get used to it," is the highest praise some gamers can say of the new look, there is something very wrong going on. Indeed, you might even say that Wind Waker is symbolic of Nintendo's ignorance of its own audience.

Matt

[Crono]

Nintendo's ignorance could very well be their downfall. For one...I don't know why they don't realize that games like SSBM, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Pokemon, Animal Crossing 2 etc., would all be GREAT online titles, and I know for a fact people would love SSBM online, and yet they say it isn't profitable, what the hell are they thinking? And who cares if it's not profitable anyway? Doesn't Nintendo aim for "quality" titles?

When it comes to cel shading, I really don't see that as an ignorant decision. Many games are using cel chading, and it will probably become more popular in the future.

Another thing to add about the "out of touch" topic, it seems that a lot of their games are losing the quality they once had, really, out of all of the games that Nintendo released in 2002, only 2 of them were really good: Metroid Prime and Animal Crossing. The rest were pretty dull and boring, but of course, this is just my opinion.

[gekko]

When "you get used to it," is the highest praise some gamers can say of the new look, there is something very wrong going on.

Amen!

[Bond]

I thought that Matt made several valid points. Especially concerning what gekko quoted. The fact that Splinter Cell outsold Metroid Prime in America for the month of December I think should be a huge wake-up call for Nintendo.

[Dyne]

I think we should blame Aunoma for the horrible decision of going cel-shade. DAMN YOU!

Has anyone heard that story? Apparently Aunoma had been sketching things while making Majora's Mask, and came up with the Cel-shade idea. After they finished it, and when Shiggy was working full force on the realistic Zelda, Aunoma proposed the idea, and Shiggy turned it down.

Then, some how, some way, Miyamoto changed his decision. And that's when it went wacky. :(

But still, I love the new style.

[BlueFire]

Nintendo is really disappointing me. I'm glad I bought a PS2 at June...

Wake up, Nintendo..

[bobcat]

Since when does Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft do what the fans want? They do what is most profitable and feasible within their companies polocies. And they also do what they believe is best for the franchise/game (e.g. Miyamoto). People may not agree with it (like Matt from IGN), but it's not his decision or anybody elses on how a game will be developed.

These companies might use "what the fans want" as a basis on what they plan to achieve, but they should keep in mind that "profit" and "marketing" be their ideal concerns.

Nintendo's marketing has been it's downfall. There has been hardly anything advertising Nintendo's games/system/products compared to that of MS and Sony. People constantly say "Nintendo has poor sales". And of course it's because of the marketing. If the public doesn't know about a product from the media in general (e.g. TV, Radio, Cinema), then of course it ain't gonna sell as well as one that has been cleverly and heavily marketed (e.g. PS2/Xbox).

The most significant point for me with going online for consoles is the fighting games. Kof2002, CVS2 etc would be awesome. I couldn't care less for FPS online for consoles, coz they are better on PC....plain and simple. I don't believe in downloading new maps/levels etc because in the long run, it would lead to a demise for quality gaming. Developers would constantly delay new games with "upgrades". Diablo II anyone? Still waiting for Diablo III. No actually I'm still waiting for the latest patch to get rid of all the hackings from Diablo II. And now I've stopped playing the game.

So yeh, bring online for fighting games! All the way. I could kick anyone's ass @ KOF/CVS ;)

On the upside the GC is getting a lot more support from 3rd party companies than the N64, and a lot more sales. I admit Nintendo cannot compete with Sony due to it's lack of marketing, but that doesn't mean I'm going to miss out on games like Zelda, Pn03, Killer 7, Mario Kart, Mario Sunshine, SSB, Metroid Prime, Eternal Darkness, FF:CC, Viewful Joe etc.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Dyne
I think we should blame Aunoma for the horrible decision of going cel-shade. DAMN YOU!

------------------------

But still, I love the new style.

I just thought those two quotes in the same post went great together :D

Anyways, Nintendo has dissapointed me... I think online gaming is good stuff and would be uber fun and such for some of Nintendo's games, although I won't get into it myself (unless I get broadband sometime in the near future)...

But yeah... just overall NGC has been kinda meh... compared to PS2, I've barely played my NGC... for months I didn't play it... then a couple games came out that were worth renting, but nothing more... and then Metroid... *shrugs*

Even if Zelda is so amazingly good, that won't change much... No matter how good one game is, it's still just one game :p

[GameKinG]

Nintendo is very much non-fan oriented. Or I should say shiggy. He does art, and his art doesnt have to please everyone or anyone.

In terms of competing with MS and sony, NCL has dropped the ball quite a few times.

[Dyne]

Originally posted by DeathsHand
I just thought those two quotes in the same post went great together :D

No, I'm happy with his decision. That's why. It was shiggy's decision... but Aunoma's fault. Bastard.

[fingersman]

Well I agree with Bobcat and Matt............Nintendo's own ignorance is going to be their downfall.......they have the talent, they have the money, they have the ideas.

They need to get up off their behinds and do something and make a name for themselves like they did in the old days.

[bobcat]

Originally posted by fingersman
Well I agree with Bobcat and Matt............Nintendo's own ignorance is going to be their downfall.......they have the talent, they have the money, they have the ideas.

They need to get up off their behinds and do something and make a name for themselves like they did in the old days. d!tto

[Null]

nintendo is nintendo.

They've always relied heavily on themselves. last couple console generations they've lived pretty much soley on themselves.

and as i said many times. i bought the GC for 1 reason. 1 reason only. Zelda. PS2 and PC are where i get my crop of games from.


As for online gaming. Nintendo will either HAVE to face it head on. or they will simply bow out of the Console making biz and become 2nd or 3rd party else where. They see it as they have to put up servers and therefor they wont make money. True, in a way. But no one said they have to provide the servers...... Mario Kart w/ Online has MUCH more appeal then Mario Kart without. it would sell more. plain and simple. same for every game pretty much.

quite frankly. my dream would be for nintendo and sony to make up. and nintendo focus on making games for one of sonys consoles.

And i do believe Nintendo will follow in Sega's footsteps and be 3rd party. just when is the question. IMO, i personally do not believe the next Nintendo console will make it to the public. i think they're will be talks of development. then droped. and they'll announce games for either Xbox Next or PS3 (ps3 me hopes)
Then the following year a new console maker will enter. Just what i think.



As for making nintendo what they were in the old days.............. They are what they were in the old days. They have not changed. Its the gamers that have changed. Nintendo has ceased to change with them.

[GameKinG]

I think NOA notices more success in online then NCL. Some fresh young faces there would do nicely. But they would probably pick someone just like their current management.

[Xantar]

We're not going to enter into the Internet gaming scene lightly, says Nintendo, because it's not profitable. And in the same breath the company releases niche titles like Pikmin into the market. A contradiction of business philosophy, no?

Setting aside the issue of whether Nintendo should go online or not, I don't think this is a valid point. For one thing, it is known that Pikmin has sold over 1 million units between the USA and Japan alone. Not bad for a "niche" title. For another thing, although I don't know all the details, you can be pretty sure that Pikmin didn't cost as much to develop as an online plan would have been.

Should Nintendo go online anyway? I don't know. Only time will tell.

Look no further than The Legend of Zelda. Nintendo showed the most incredible recreation of its Zelda franchise at Space World 2000, and to a delighted, cheering crowd. So what does the company do? Come back with a totally transformed version of the game that features a cartoon-styled, child Link and an all-too-cute Zelda universe -- the exact opposite of the direction the marketplace seems headed. For perhaps the first time in a Miyamoto presentation ever, the cheers were quieted. And yet, development on the title continued.

I think Matt is exaggerating the effect of both presentations of Zelda here. Yes, Nintendo has riled a lot of people by showing a traditionally rendered video and then turning around and cel-shading it. But on the other hand, how many people saw the Spaceworld 2000 video? To your average casual gamer, Zelda: The Wind Waker has always been cel-shaded.

This is not to say that I think the game will be well-received. In fact, although the game has been selling quite well in Japan, I will be surprised to see it do as well in the U.S. as Ocarina of Time.

I think Nintendo's major weakness and their biggest mistakes have been in their public relations and marketing. It's a mess, at least in the U.S. Aside from there just being fewer Nintendo ads, their quality hasn't been as good. There have also been little things like using purple as the color of choice for marketing (never mind that 50% of the consoles are black). If Nintendo had done a better job of marketing, I can imagine that many of GameCube's problems would be lessened or disappear altogether.

For the rest, well, there's just no predicting what's going to happen in the industry.

[gekko]

Matt isn't exaggerating at all. He's referring to Nintendo being out of touch with their fans, not customers.

[fingersman]

Originally posted by Null






As for making nintendo what they were in the old days.............. They are what they were in the old days. They have not changed. Its the gamers that have changed. Nintendo has ceased to change with them.

I assume that statement is addressing me so I'll just comment on that. ( If it wasn't for me, My bad )

I said Nintendo needs to make a name for themselves like they did in the old days, I did not say Nintendo needs to use the tatic they did in the old days, because like you pointed out I don't think their tatics have changed that much, however their third party support has and that is what is hurting them right now.

Yes people brought the GC for Nintendo games but it shouldn't be like that, that's just wrong and that's where they are losing out. Nintendo should have really persued the third parties this time around, (especially after the N64, where 3rd party suppot was very little and far between). GC should be a console with tons of third party games, the first party games from Nintendo would just be an added bonus for gamers.

Nintendo also needs to atleast try and cater to the third party and gamers needs.

1st example: The GC controller. Is it a nice controler? Yes. Is it comfortable? Yes. Can you use it for every game? No.
Look at that d pad man, it's practicially non-existent. How do you a gamer who likes fighting games ( 2d fighting games especially, since they are know for using the d pad) is going to feel, and do you think 3rd parties will want to release alot of fighting games on the system. Noooooooooooooooooooooo.

2nd example.THe memory card.

Nintendo really screwed sports gamers with this, they could have released their current memory card with the system launch butttttt nooooooooooooooooo, they just had to milk the market.
( check the game for this one)

I'm not saying Nintendo is doing a horrible job, in fact I think they are doing a good job, but a good job isn't going to cut it if they want to become the leaders of the home console market again. They are going to have to stop depending on themselves so much and stop thinking so close minded.

Like Gekko said Nintendo is out of touch with their fans......give the fans what they want, and stop dicking around.

[gekko]

D-pads are outdated, and everyone buy Sony realizes that. GC's D-pad is too small, and Xbox's D-pad is big, yet pure crap. I don't think it's possible to win the d-pad battle.

As for fighting games, that's why they invented arcade sticks.

[fingersman]

Originally posted by gekko
D-pads are outdated, and everyone buy Sony realizes that. GC's D-pad is too small, and Xbox's D-pad is big, yet pure crap. I don't think it's possible to win the d-pad battle.

As for fighting games, that's why they invented arcade sticks.

My friends prefer the D-pad to the analog stick. And if the D pad is so out dated why include it at all? I think that if your going to include a feature on a controller do it right.

Acrade sticks are cool if you can afford to buy for your console, but most people would prefer not to spend the extra money.

[gekko]

Well when you are given the task to design a controller, you can't just magically have everything work perfectly 100% of the time. Analog control is used in 99% of today's games, so the d-pad has to take second priority.

You make it small to keep it out of the way, and people complain. You make the controller bigger to fit it, and people complain the controller is too big. Put it in a good location, and it gets in the way. Put it further away, and it's too hard to reach.

It'll never be perfect. And analog is more important than the d-pad. If you play fighting games, get an arcade stick. If you play Tony Hawk, get a PS2 controller adapter. That's the only way it'll ever work out.

[bobcat]

Originally posted by fingersman
My friends prefer the D-pad to the analog stick. And if the D pad is so out dated why include it at all? I think that if your going to include a feature on a controller do it right.

Acrade sticks are cool if you can afford to buy for your console, but most people would prefer not to spend the extra money.

If you are a fighting game player, you would want the arcade stick. It's so much better overall than a Dpad, ESPECIALLY for the 6 button fighters such as CVS2 and most of Capcom's other fighting games.

For SNK games (e.g. KOF), Dual shock 2 is good, but still the arcade joystick is better (well for me). I'm a fighting game fan, and play nearly all fighting games. Dpad for fighting games is slowly becoming obsolete.

[fingersman]

Ok i only have one mature thing to say about your comments guys.........





YOU BOTH SUCK!! :p j/k
Ahhhhhhhh that felt good.

I made that statement based on what my friends thought about the controller........I guess the controller d -pad issue can go either way. :unsure:

[Jonbo298]

No contoller can be perfect, like other people have said. Nintendo has baically made the D pad as 4 extra buttons. I've seen a few games use it for that. But I think fighting games will eventually be optimized for Analog. But on the issue of Nintendo...I think Nintendo will realize come around the time of the next console being released that they need to listen to the fans more like they used to. They will learn that the quality could be better and that they should market the hell out of that quality. But I dont think Nintendo is going to just bow out soon. They will just have to revise what they are thinking right now.

[Bad Religion]

I think Xantar touched on the color issue as well, I mean really! Purple? The launch should have been platinum and black only... and every time I look at my wavebirds it reminds me of something that would have over a crib! Personally, I don't give a rats' ass about it, but it just makes me shake my head at Nintendo. *shakes head in disgust*

[TheGame]

lol, when I say it certain people jump on my back, when matt says it everybody agrees... :(

Nintendo is the most ignorant company on the market, allways have been, always will be. Thier ignorance was proven to me with the N64/GCN memory cards... it just made me look at the company in a whole different way. They are afraid of change, and are worried about the pay-off of games over the qualit5y of games.

<Like I said before>

I'm glad Sony is on top this generation, and was on top last generation... because if Nintendo had the same mind control as Sony the gaming industry would suck ass.

[Perfect Stu]

Old, proud, ignorant businessmen. You find them everywhere, in every industry.

One industry where they would not serve well is the gaming industry. Constantly modern, full of change, and aimed mostly at teens and generation X.

Nintendo needs some creative young minds in more influential positions. People that can relate to the consumers. They would know a little more about modernized marketing, and the interests of youth.

I watch development house videos of some of Sony's first and second parties. These guys are young. Mid-late 20s, Early 30s. Like Naughty Dog (PSX's Crash Bandicoot games, Jak and Daxter), Insomniac (Ratchet and Clank) and Harmonix (Frequency, upcoming sequel Amplitude). All create high quality games that are considered 'cool' by people of all ages.

Nintendo needs more of that. Younger, maybe more americanized talent.

Nintendo really needs to wake up and realize that they do not call the shots in the console gaming market anymore. When a random person is asked about videogames, the word 'Nintendo' doesn't instantly come to mind anymore.

Nintendo will, in time (if they haven't already) realize that they have to evolve with the industry. And when they get that into their stubborn minds and act on it, we can expect great things. Nintendo is, afterall, home to some of the best game developers on the planet.

All is not lost. I'm still openminded, even if I don't sound like it. My gaming roots spell N-I-N-T-E-N-D-O.

[gekko]

Originally posted by TheGame
lol, when I say it certain people jump on my back, when matt says it everybody agrees... :(


That's because Matt makes sense, and coming from you it sounds like nothing more than a fanboy rant. All in how you word it.

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by gekko
That's because Matt makes sense, and coming from you it sounds like nothing more than a fanboy rant. All in how you word it.

Yeah, but I dunno...Matt is making the impression on me that he's kinda whiny...

he made one thread showing that Splinter Cell beat up Metroid in sales...and he's like "Good job Nintendo." like he was personally insulted.

[Cyrax9]

The D-pad would be fine if it was slighlty larhger, liek the PS2 Size, but still "Jined' like it is on the GCN, the best idea there is to use an SNES Style D-Pad, that was, is and always will be my favorite.

As for Nintendo being out of Touch, yes they are! That's why Yamuchi stepped dwon, eh realized he was a "Cenile old fool" and chose ot give his position to Iwata who is pushing the GCN II aggressivly, to ensure it doesnt suck in any way shape or fomr, and ISN"T the next Dreamcast or N64!

As for Online gaming, here's the problem, which Sony and Microsoft will learn about the Hard way:

#1. Online Gaming Costs a Monthly Fee, no matter how it's done on "Xbox Live!", and requires a Credit Card. The LARGEST Potnetial Online Demographic (5-17) Deosnt' HAVE a Credit card.

#2. People simply Do NOT WANT to pay $30.00 a month for an Online-Only game, when they COULD pay $50.00 for an Offline game ONCE, and NEVER AGAIN! It's that simple, some people don't want ot pay the outrageous fees per game.

#3. People CAN NOT AFFORD Online-Only Games, and thus, will not buy them. I fall under this catagory, I'd LOVE to play "The Sims Online" for the PC, PSO I & II on the GCN and so on, but I CAN NOT AFFORD a monthluy fee of $10.00 a month per game, it's not worth it, and most people would avoid online gaming for this reason.

#4. Some people DO NOT WANT their credit card # In Nintendo's hands, they do not WANT a bill they don't know about "Automatiucally Entered" for an "Extra Fee" on exclusive Content, the way you can get things with XBox Live. These people do NOT WANT to play a game and discoer hidden charges.

#5. Online Gaming, for the most part, requires a Boradband Connection, 5% of the World is Boradband, 95% is still on 56k Dial-UP, the "Kiddies' wouldn't be able to afford broadband, and the fees for games, nor wouold they have a credit card to PAY with, you lose customers this way.

Here's what will happen ebcause of these "problems" with online Gaming: The fad will take off, Poke'mon style, it'll last for a year or so, and then it'll die off, and only a few Online Games will be fit for the Console, unless you're going to give it a Keyboard and Mouse, wihc would make it a Computer, not a console anymore. Because of this Sony and Microsoft will suffer. I for one will NOT play online games due ot rip-oof prices and oiutrageous ISP fees as well as the "need" for another ISP in most cases. Also some areas don't offer DSL, and have poor cable Modems, rather than decent ones, until this problem is Fixed, Online gaming is going to suffer.

As for Pikmin, this was a stupid idea that faded away as quickly as it came, Iwata saw this, and will probably aask for a "new" genre of gaming similar to pikmin in terms of a "different' idea, but it won't be another "Save the weird creratures" game or a POkemon clone, just an average game with a new "Twist", this fad will last for one console war, then dissipate awaitinganother new genre.

As far as Windwaker's cell-shaing goes, I only liked it after I saw the OFFICAL Screenshots that make it look more like an NES Game and as a PREQUEL it SHOULD look somewhat "Dated" to an extent, and it DOES!

The more "mature" and "Darker' Zelda, is a re-relase of TOoT a d its' unrelased 64DD counterpart that was canned with the 64DD, these "games' are avaiable as a "POre-Order Bonus" at EBGames.com and other stores spre-selling "Windwaker", not only was this an intellgient move, but people will now BUY "Windwaker' just for the Bonus Material, and NOT the game, thus selling essentially 3 Zelda gaems for the price of one.

Also, I think this will be a one-time idea, IWata is planning for a Console War in 2005, even though MOST Companies aren't gearing up until 2006! This is something Yamauchi would NEVER have done! He'd study SOny and Microsoft, THAN mkae his move! Iwata sees that you need to be first, and not last, to mkae the biggest impact, and he's been polling NP Readers for an aggressive marketing campaign, he WANTS to know what works and what doesn't so no more Disasters occur and he allowed the "Bonus games" for pre-order in the USA because FANS asked for them with "Windwaker", an idea that was originally a Japanese-Exculsive! Yamauchi wuld ahe ignored this, and we'd have NEVER seen TOoT and it's 64DD Version for the GCN had he still been in charge.

Nintendo is listening now, not a lot, but they are, Iwata has started trying to target thew people Yamauchi had back in the 80's, and it's working.

The GCN will probably be as successful as the SNES once the GCN II makes it's debut because of reforms Iwata inacts.

I can see many changes in Nintendo and new Ideas brought about by Iwata now running the company, Nintendo will be ptu back on Track, yamuchi nearly ruined the company with the N64, the GCN will ahves ome Transitional" probelms switching CEO's but in the end the GCN II will be like the SNES was witht the GCN I being like the NES.

I belive Nintendo is changing, but not fast enough. Had Iwata done a poll on Zelda gaems befor it was too late, the Cell-project would have beeen canned. Now windwaker is coming out, I have it pre-rodered because I want ot play the game, screw grpahics, it's the plot that mkaes Zelda good, if THAT sucks, than we have a problem. I belive we WILL See the "Mature" Zelda again, but it may take some time, and think how cool it would be as a GCN II Launch title?

Yeah we'd ahve waited 5 years but it wouldbe better than getting it as a rushed game with no Quality Control.

I belvie 3rd Party games can be rushed crap if they sell, but not Nitendo 1st Party games, which Sony and Microsoft are doing fine without, if Nitendo makes the 1st party games as good as rushed 3rd party stuff, we may see soem interesting thgns come out of NCL in the future, in short, let's see this one thorugh, The company is beong revamped for todays audiance, give it a chance.

[Jonbo298]

Wow Cyrax, good thoughts there. After reading that, I can't wait for the next console war.:D

[TheGame]

Originally posted by gekko
That's because Matt makes sense, and coming from you it sounds like nothing more than a fanboy rant. All in how you word it.

Hmm... maybe because fanboys are the ones who get on my case about it, and matt is a nintendo fanboy himself so he has the "right" to say it.

No way to tell really