Religion

[Joeiss]

I am just curious about what religion you all are. Also, do you believe that your religion is the right religion? Do you believe that only the people who believe in your religion will go to heaven?

I think that there is one God who created everything here on earth. And I think that Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians are people who just take different paths, but believe in the same God. Yep... therefore nobody is wrong... people just take different paths in life... YEP!

But I don't know about those atheists... Don't know where they go...lol

[DeathsHand]

*wonders how long it'll be before this is closed*...

I myself don't believe in any of that religion stuff... *shrugs*

*walks away*

[BlueFire]

I'm Catholic.. Don't care much about religion, and I'm not a devout Christian. So whatever and stuff. I think Heaven is for anyone who was good (not evil, not bad). I don't think it's exclusive to some religion... yeah whatever

[gekko]

Originally posted by Joeiss
I am just curious about what religion you all are. Also, do you believe that your religion is the right religion? Do you believe that only the people who believe in your religion will go to heaven?

I think that there is one God who created everything here on earth. And I think that Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians are people who just take different paths, but believe in the same God. Yep... therefore nobody is wrong... people just take different paths in life... YEP!

But I don't know about those atheists... Don't know where they go...lol

I was raised Catholic. Can't say I really practice it. But if you gave me a list and told me to pick, I would choose the religion I was brought up in. So there you go.

I don't think anyone would follow a religion that they didn't think is right. Just like if anyone truly felt that a God existed, I doubt they would be an atheist. I don't think anyone would follow a religion they believed is wrong.

And no, I don't believe that. All the religions (at least the ones I would qualify as a religion over a cult) all are about peace. Assuming you have a belief in heaven and hell, If two people lived very moral lives, I don't see how God would accept one over the other. So maybe one was a Christian, one was an atheist, I don't think it matters. God would be foolish to expect people to do anything but follow their heart. If you believed in one God, twenty, or none, if you lived a good life, or were truly sorry when you come to know "the Truth" I don't see how you could be sent to hell, it goes against what the church teaches.

[Neo]

Can I leave this thread open without it turning into a screamfest?

[gekko]

Can you add anything to the conversation, and quit spamming? :p :p :p

Might as well give the thread a chance, you know, all threads are innocent until proven guilty. :sneaky:

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by Neo
Can I leave this thread open without it turning into a screamfest?

only time will tell

As for me, I'm Christian, and have been confirmed under the United Church of Canada...I don't practice it much, and that's probably the way I like it. As for it being the 'right' religion, I don't know...I haven't done excessive research...but I haven't thought about changing my religion or anything.

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by gekko
Can you add anything to the conversation, and quit spamming? :p :p :p


:lol:



I am Catholic... Not sure how long I will stay with it, though.

[manasecret]

Originally posted by gekko
I was raised Catholic. Can't say I really practice it. But if you gave me a list and told me to pick, I would choose the religion I was brought up in. So there you go.

I don't think anyone would follow a religion that they didn't ...

Nearly the same as me.

I was raised Catholic through 12 years of Catholic school (though born and baptized Episcopalian). Never practiced either religion, and they're almost one in the same.

With so much Catholic teaching around you for so friggin' long you think a lot about religion, or at least I did. I've come to decide for myself that there is something Higher or Greater or God in a way somewhere out there, or here or everywhere. But I don't necessarily believe it's a God that cares about the human race, or formed his image in us, or granted us life through him or whatever all the religions teach.

I believe in something Greater, but not religion. I guess that's it in a nutshell.

[DimHalo]

I'm Christian. Not completely sure which church I really want to belong to. Right now I am experimenting and searching for what the right path is for me.
I somewhat agree that if you are good you will go to heaven. However it does take a really devoted soul be able to even get close to it.

[Happydude]

i am an athiest...wait...that's the one that doesn't beleive in god, right?

if so then yeah...i don't beleive in god, and stuff...

[Perfect Stu]

just to throw in some questioning...instead of asking ourselves what kind of person gets into heaven, why not ask 'is there really a 'heaven'?

[Joeiss]

Thanks for changing up my thread, idiot. ;)



And yes, there is a heaven. Heaven is basically one big party where everybody gets to chill out with people who have died before us. I plan on chilling with Jimi Hendrix, Ghandi and Hitler.

[gekko]

Originally posted by happydude666
i am an athiest...wait...that's the one that doesn't beleive in god, right?

if so then yeah...i don't beleive in god, and stuff...

Atheists don't believe in a higher power of any sort, there isn't a God. Agnostics aren't sure, they don't know, and perhaps, they don't care.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
just to throw in some questioning...instead of asking ourselves what kind of person gets into heaven, why not ask 'is there really a 'heaven'?

Nope, it's just an idea people use to comfort them and make death not seem as bad as it would be if they thought it was just 'you're dead the end'...

(^_^

[Mushlafa]

I dont beleive in a god or heaven or hell... kinda feel like im missing out :unsure:

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by DeathsHand
Nope, it's just an idea people use to comfort them and make death not seem as bad as it would be if they thought it was just 'you're dead the end'...

(^_^


So you think that when you die, it will just be like an eternal sleep? Like.... Nothing is happening.... nothing and blackness? or not even blackness? Just nothing... lol.

[TheGrimReaper]

I'm a Christian. I believe that in order to gain access to heaven, one must declare Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

That's what I believe.

[manasecret]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
just to throw in some questioning...instead of asking ourselves what kind of person gets into heaven, why not ask 'is there really a 'heaven'?

Nah.

I was thinking the other day, let's say there is a heaven and no matter what you did on Earth everyone got in. Everyone. But since you didn't know until you died, you didn't know you could have done whatever you wanted. Even killed yourself so you wouldn't have to deal with all the stupid people around you :sneaky: ...

Would kinda suck. Like eating scrambled eggs with sugar poured over it. Yep.

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by TheGrimReaper
I'm a Christian. I believe that in order to gain access to heaven, one must declare Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

That's what I believe.

So Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Confusisists, Daoists, Shintos (sp?) all do not get into heaven?

[DarkMaster]

Originally posted by Joeiss
So you think that when you die, it will just be like an eternal sleep? Like.... Nothing is happening.... nothing and blackness? or not even blackness? Just nothing... lol.
thats how I see it, an eternal sleep. the whole concept of Heaven is, IMO, quite strange. I am Christian, and I cant remember the last time i went to church, but no matter wut I am taught by the church, there are still things I cant force myself to believe. Even God sounds like a fairy tale, one almighty being that created everything and rules all but never shows himself in any physical form, and yet we must trust to faith that he somehow exists in another realm waiting for us when we die.

and wut is the point of living if we are to one day die? why are we to stay in heaven forever but remain on Earth only for a certain period of time? all those events from the bible, why do none of those happen in the present or recent years?we are expected to believe in all those crazy stories in the bible after being brought up in a modernized world. It's not that I dont believe in God or heaven, I just have so many questions and theories.

[Joeiss]

I think that DarkMaster should seriously look into Buddhist beliefs for some answers.

[gekko]

Why? Because of reincarnation?

[Joeiss]

Just seems that since he doesn't really believe in God, and doesn't really believe in heaven and hell....


And yes, the not believing in heaven and hell brings reincarnation to the scene.

[The Germanator]

I'm technically a Christian though I lean towards more Agnostic beliefs I guess...Religion has never been an important part in my life and I don't feel it has to be.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Joeiss
And yes, the not believing in heaven and hell brings reincarnation to the scene.

Or the belief that when you're dead you're dead the end ;)

Reincarnation would be nifty though :p

[GameKinG]

I cant imagine not actually thinking, when Im dead...Of course I wont have to worry about that if being dead is just the end.

[Perfect Stu]

there's a reason humans exist...how we're at just the right distance away from the sun that we're able to live...how gravity is so convenient...how, from our knowledge, no other planet has intelligent life

I can't believe it's all just chance...someone/something created us...or created whatever we evolved from...some unknown power

And I'd also like to know why everything that has shaped most religions happened so long ago that nobody really knows if it actually happened, or if it was just a well thought-out story to satisfy one's emptiness.

I believe there will be SOMETHING after death...why waste a human soul (something truly magnificent) on a body that will only live 70, 80, 100 years max? I notice that most people who think that death is THE END seem unfulfilled with their life. You would think that if you were to believe that this is it, you would think of life as something more fragile, and would do anything and everything within your power to live the best life one could possibly live. But that's hardly the case.

[Happydude]

Originally posted by gekko
Atheists don't believe in a higher power of any sort, there isn't a God. Agnostics aren't sure, they don't know, and perhaps, they don't care.

thx for clearing that up...i'm a little of both i guess :unsure:

[Jonbo298]

I don't really have a preferred religion.(can't remember the name of someone without a religion). But I think there is a God and a heaven.

[Mechadragon]

Agnostic here. And I have a question for the Christians. How does the Bible explain the other planets? I've never read it.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
there's a reason humans exist...how we're at just the right distance away from the sun that we're able to live...how gravity is so convenient...how, from our knowledge, no other planet has intelligent life

I can't believe it's all just chance...someone/something created us...or created whatever we evolved from...some unknown power

And I'd also like to know why everything that has shaped most religions happened so long ago that nobody really knows if it actually happened, or if it was just a well thought-out story to satisfy one's emptiness.

I believe there will be SOMETHING after death...why waste a human soul (something truly magnificent) on a body that will only live 70, 80, 100 years max? I notice that most people who think that death is THE END seem unfulfilled with their life. You would think that if you were to believe that this is it, you would think of life as something more fragile, and would do anything and everything within your power to live the best life one could possibly live. But that's hardly the case.

Well, I think it is just a chance, basically... and somewhere out in the uber huuuuge Universe, there's gotta be some other planet that just happened to land the right distance away from it's sun-type thing and also has life of some form... Of course I can't prove that there is, but you can't prove that there's not :p

And I don't see it as wasting a 'soul'... Because I don't think there's such thing as a 'soul'... at least if you're saying it's some kind of seperate entity :hmm:

"I notice that most people who think that death is THE END seem unfulfilled with their life"

Maybe it's cuz they're not looking forward to something else... they don't see life as a key to this amazingly uber after-life... Or they're just afraid because they know the end is the end and they don't want it to be that way, whereas religious people have all these other theories that make it more... y'know... nice...

And just cuz they're unfulfilled with their life, it doesn't mean they didn't at least tried to be the best they could ;)

Beat yeah, it's kinda hard to debate these things since the different beliefs change the way people think so yeah and stuff...

[Xantar]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
there's a reason humans exist...how we're at just the right distance away from the sun that we're able to live...how gravity is so convenient...how, from our knowledge, no other planet has intelligent life

I can't believe it's all just chance...someone/something created us...or created whatever we evolved from...some unknown power


Well, of course it's extremely lucky, but on the other hand, your reasoning is somewhat circular. Yeah, we're the correct distance from the sun and all that, but if that wasn't true, we wouldn't know about it. Because we wouldn't exist.

That may be kind of confusing, so let's put it this way. If we were a couple of observers who don't come from any particular place (like angels, maybe) looking around the universe and finding that it just so happens that Earth is situated just right for life, then your reasoning would have some validity. We would be neutral, unbiased observers.

But that's not what we are. Our very existence assures that the conditions are just right, and we can't form any idea of what the probabilities would be. For all we know, we really are the product of an accident. Back when we were created, however that happened, the odds might have been stacked against us by a billion to one or they might have been so favorable to us as to be certain. We have no way of knowing which it is because if the odds had tipped the other way, we would never have known it.

And by the way, the universe is a pretty big place. Nobody can say for certain that there is no intelligent life out there. Sure, there isn't any as far as we know, but how much of the universe do we really know? And the truth is we probably wouldn't recognize intelligent life out there. After all, what would it look like?

My religious beliefs are more or less well known, so I won't go over them.

[Bond]

Originally posted by Mechadragon
Agnostic here. And I have a question for the Christians. How does the Bible explain the other planets? I've never read it.
Think about when the Bible was written and when other planets and/or galaxies were discovered.

I personally, have no specific religion. I suppose I will decide what I shall become later in life... or not.

Think of it this way... in 1,000 years we will have different religions anyway.

[Crono]

In a way I do believe that theres something out there that put us here, but IMO, it's definitely not that Bible stuff. I don't believe in any religions we have, but I do believe in some sort of creator.

And think about what Stu said, it's like everything was set up perfectly for us, it's hard to think that it was just by coincedence.

[Shadow_Link]

I converted to Islam for many reasons. One reason is that it has so much depth, it's quite unbelievable. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the only Holy book not to have been tampered with, proof of which is in the 100% similarity of Hifz (memorisation) between people who know the Quran.

What really struck me though was all the scientific evidence in the Quran, such as proving that the Earth wasn't a perfect sphere, that all the planets in our solar system orbit the sun, the vivid details of how a fertilised egg grows into a feotus etc, all WAY before these discoveries were made, and clear details chartered. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are hundreds and hundreds of these. Coincidence? Impossible.
One man (Muhammaed (PBUH)), who couldn't read or write, could surely NOT have been able to write, what I think is the most beautiful piece of writing. This was one of the miracles. (If you understand Arabic, you will be able to witness the sheer beauty of the language used in it).

Anyways, there were NUMEROUS reasons other than the ones I stated that converted me to Islam. It's not just a religion, it's a way of life for me and other Muslims.

[Joeiss]

Yeah. The Angel Gabriel told Muhammod the Qu'ran, and it is a miracle that he passed it on throught so many generations (since he was illiterate). I love reading about Islam... I find it very interesting.

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by Xantar
Well, of course it's extremely lucky, but on the other hand, your reasoning is somewhat circular. Yeah, we're the correct distance from the sun and all that, but if that wasn't true, we wouldn't know about it. Because we wouldn't exist.

That may be kind of confusing, so let's put it this way. If we were a couple of observers who don't come from any particular place (like angels, maybe) looking around the universe and finding that it just so happens that Earth is situated just right for life, then your reasoning would have some validity. We would be neutral, unbiased observers.

But that's not what we are. Our very existence assures that the conditions are just right, and we can't form any idea of what the probabilities would be. For all we know, we really are the product of an accident. Back when we were created, however that happened, the odds might have been stacked against us by a billion to one or they might have been so favorable to us as to be certain. We have no way of knowing which it is because if the odds had tipped the other way, we would never have known it.

And by the way, the universe is a pretty big place. Nobody can say for certain that there is no intelligent life out there. Sure, there isn't any as far as we know, but how much of the universe do we really know? And the truth is we probably wouldn't recognize intelligent life out there. After all, what would it look like?

My religious beliefs are more or less well known, so I won't go over them.

It's not confusing at all. I know exactly what you mean...For all we know, it could be chance. For all we know, it could be a number of things, possibly something of which would be beyong our conprehension.

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion about something SO mysterious and subjective. It's even harder for a group of people to agree completely with each other about such a thing.

And for the record, I said 'frpm our knowledge', there are no signs of intelligent life. Possibly there is intelligent life out there, beyond where man can currently roam in space. Possibly there is intelligent life fairly nearby but we have no means to detect it. Either way, I never ruled out the fact that someone/something could be out there.

[TheGrimReaper]

Joeiss, that's what I believe.

[Joeiss]

Hang on... Do you have any friends that are not Christians? so you are saying that they are not going to heaven?

[Dyne]

Hmm.. never noticed this thread before. :unsure:

Anyways, for the record, I was baptised as a Lutheran, but I go to United. See, my father was United (his ancestors lived in Regina and folded into the Canadian religion because they were WASPS), and my mother was a strict Lutheran (extreme german. My grandmother still plays organ at a german-english lutheran church). Well, anyways, I was baptized when I was a baby, and when I lived in Ontario until I was Five, I went to a Lutheran Church (my mom played organ there... was featured on the news because it's the biggest pipe organ in Canada :sneaky: ). But, then, when we moved here, there was only one church that needed an organist, and it was united. So, I've gone there. But, due to events when I was in grade.. 7, we stopped going. We tried going to our local United a few times, and my mom still does bible study there, except we don't go. So... I don't know. Call me Lutheran.

[Mechadragon]

Originally posted by Bond
Think about when the Bible was written and when other planets and/or galaxies were discovered.

I personally, have no specific religion. I suppose I will decide what I shall become later in life... or not.

Think of it this way... in 1,000 years we will have different religions anyway. Wha? I thought "God" wrote it. Meh, I need to read up on Christianity.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I think god, heaven, hell, and all that religion stuff is pure bull****. It's all one big fairy tale.

[TheGrimReaper]

I have a few friends yes, and if they do not become Christians, I believe that they will not go to heaven. Depressing yes, but it's what I beleive.

[Bad Religion]

I've been agnostic for quite some time, and of course I'll put my two cents in here, I just don't see how any "man-made" religion could actually have merit. I think religions are fascinating though, in the way that they affect billions of people. Religions are basically a defense mechanism, for people who can't bear the thought of not "going to heaven" when they die. Reincarnation is almost as (if not more) ludicrous, but basically has the same functioning result" Death isn't the end. Well, I think it MOST likely is, and if it isn't, it's not going to be anything anyone recognizes, etc... you aren't going to be reunited with loved ones, and you aren't coming back as an animal, or even being lauded in Valhalla for that matter. Anyway, the point is live for today! LOL

[Mushlafa]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
there's a reason humans exist...how we're at just the right distance away from the sun that we're able to live...how gravity is so convenient...how, from our knowledge, no other planet has intelligent life

I can't believe it's all just chance...someone/something created us...or created whatever we evolved from...some unknown power

And I'd also like to know why everything that has shaped most religions happened so long ago that nobody really knows if it actually happened, or if it was just a well thought-out story to satisfy one's emptiness.

I believe there will be SOMETHING after death...why waste a human soul (something truly magnificent) on a body that will only live 70, 80, 100 years max? I notice that most people who think that death is THE END seem unfulfilled with their life. You would think that if you were to believe that this is it, you would think of life as something more fragile, and would do anything and everything within your power to live the best life one could possibly live. But that's hardly the case.

Im against pretty much everything you said... i think it could be just chance that we happened to be the right distance from the sun and all... our galaxy alone has millions of stars and a lot of those stars have planets around them... and theres millions of galaxies out there... spread over trillions and trillions of light years... i think that with a number that big.... there has to be many planets with inteligent life out there...

I beleive when you die.. thats it.. your gone.. nothing else... i dont beleive in a soul either or anything like that... i dont beleive in reincarnation... and i dont beleive that there is any higher beings that we cant proove exist and have special powers to create people and everything on this planet... i think its all by chance..

Yeaah whatever im done.... i kinda wish i did beleive in all that stuff stu said tho... prolly would be a much happier person :)

[Angrist]

Hm I might have a surprise for you... Marionette knows what religion I have... I'll tell you later.

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Mushlafa
Im against pretty much everything you said... i think it could be just chance that we happened to be the right distance from the sun and all... our galaxy alone has millions of stars and a lot of those stars have planets around them... and theres millions of galaxies out there... spread over trillions and trillions of light years... i think that with a number that big.... there has to be many planets with inteligent life out there...

I beleive when you die.. thats it.. your gone.. nothing else... i dont beleive in a soul either or anything like that... i dont beleive in reincarnation... and i dont beleive that there is any higher beings that we cant proove exist and have special powers to create people and everything on this planet... i think its all by chance..

Yeaah whatever im done.... i kinda wish i did beleive in all that stuff stu said tho... prolly would be a much happier person :)

So where do you believe all the materials of life, mass, energy and such in the universe came from?

Put it this way, everything leaves a trace behind for proof of something else... A camel leaves foot prints in the sand, fossilised bones of dinosaurs suggest dinosaurs exist, just as we humans, and all life on earth are living proof of the existance of something else, something that's left it's mark (God).

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
just as we humans, and all life on earth are living proof of the existance of something else, something that's left it's mark (God).

Or we're not from something that's left it's mark... we're just here... :p

And some people may argue "But how can we just BE HERE!? There has to be an explanation!" but there are a lot of unexplained things that happen... *shrugs*...

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by DeathsHand
Or we're not from something that's left it's mark... we're just here... :p

And some people may argue "But how can we just BE HERE!? There has to be an explanation!" but there are a lot of unexplained things that happen... *shrugs*...

that sounds like an explanation to me :hmm:

DH, I think you're taking the easy, thoughtless, unimaginative way out...'bah, it's all cheese...we're just here, we'll die, nothing will happen, yadda yadd a yadda'...it doesn't take much time or effort to come to that conclusion

There has to be a reason why something exists. What's our reason?

[Shadow_Link]

For those of you interested, I really do suggest you read through this site thoroughly:

The Truth... (http://www.it-is-truth.org/)

I reccommend reading the 4 articles presented by the 4 pictures first.

There's quite a lot though.

[The Germanator]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
that sounds like an explanation to me :hmm:

DH, I think you're taking the easy, thoughtless, unimaginative way out...'bah, it's all cheese...we're just here, we'll die, nothing will happen, yadda yadd a yadda'...it doesn't take much time or effort to come to that conclusion

There has to be a reason why something exists. What's our reason?

Shouldn't life be easy? If there was a creator, would he want us to waste our time trying to figure out if there was a god or not? I figure I'm here to live my life as I want, etc. I've never been interested in religion and quite frankly the "easy, thoughtless, unimaginitive way out" is what I believe in. To you it may be worthwhile to think about creation, god, etc...to me it's a waste.

[Joeiss]

Sweet website, Shadow.

[Jason1]

Im Jewish




:sneaky:

seirously, Im Catholic. There seems to be a lot of Cathliocs here. Im not a good Catholic tho...I go to church maybe once a month...but I was confirmed into the church and such...so yea I had to do stuff and learn stuff and do service hours...

[Perfect Stu]

Originally posted by The Germanator
Shouldn't life be easy? If there was a creator, would he want us to waste our time trying to figure out if there was a god or not? I figure I'm here to live my life as I want, etc. I've never been interested in religion and quite frankly the "easy, thoughtless, unimaginitive way out" is what I believe in. To you it may be worthwhile to think about creation, god, etc...to me it's a waste.

life was never meant to be easy

if you think deciding whether there is a god or not is wasting your time, why are you wasting your time replying to this thread?

by the sounds of it, you don't believe in the 'easy, thoughtless, unimaginative way out'.....it sounds like you believe in nothing...have you ever thought about being thankful for whoever/whatever gave us humans life? life is a gift...a gift given by something...personally, I think that trying to figure out who we owe our lives to isn't that much of a waste

[GameMaster]

Originally posted by Angrist
Hm I might have a surprise for you... Marionette knows what religion I have... I'll tell you later.

Why couldn't you have just told us then? Are you trying to leave us in suspence, Mr. Mystery? ;)

[The Germanator]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
have you ever thought about being thankful for whoever/whatever gave us humans life? life is a gift...a gift given by something...personally, I think that trying to figure out who we owe our lives to isn't that much of a waste

That's the problem...I don't believe that "whoever/whatever" gave me life. Nobody came down and handed me life besides my mother because she gave birth to me. I'll thank her for the rest of my life, but that's a different story. I think that human life just happened...yes...I have no argument whatsoever, but I feel like I have the same amount of proof that "someone/something" created me, which leads me basically not to care. Nobody will ever be able to prove anything, and if I'm wrong and damned to hell, then shoot, but I'd rather make myself happy ( a living person, who I do know exists) rather than making some mystical creator happy. It may seem selfish, but in my mind it's common sense...bleh.

[Mushlafa]

Theres no proof something created us at all... if something could create living things just like that .. why dont other planets have inteligent life like ours... huh? Why did he pick just this planet.. when im sure theres many other planets out there with an atmosphere :unsure: by chance theres gotta be... I think if the conditions are right.. life will happen.. and very slowly but surely it will evolve into inteligent life somehow....

I dont understand how you can possible think that.. a human soul or ghost thing.. will fly out of our bodies when we die... and it goes up to the clouds.. but for some reason.. its heaven up there.. and you get to chill with a bunch of dead people.. i just cant see that... reincarnation is eaven worse... yep... when you die.. you get reborn as someone else but have no memory of your last life... yeah.. i dont think so... or deep down in the earths core.. there is a guy wit funky legs, a pich fork, and horns.. and if you were bad in life .. you get sent down there.. :unsure:

Beleivening things like this just doesnt make sense to me...

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Mushlafa
Theres no proof something created us at all... if something could create living things just like that .. why dont other planets have inteligent life like ours... huh? Why did he pick just this planet.. when im sure theres many other planets out there with an atmosphere :unsure: by chance theres gotta be... I think if the conditions are right.. life will happen.. and very slowly but surely it will evolve into inteligent life somehow....

I dont understand how you can possible think that.. a human soul or ghost thing.. will fly out of our bodies when we die... and it goes up to the clouds.. but for some reason.. its heaven up there.. and you get to chill with a bunch of dead people.. i just cant see that... reincarnation is eaven worse... yep... when you die.. you get reborn as someone else but have no memory of your last life... yeah.. i dont think so... or deep down in the earths core.. there is a guy wit funky legs, a pich fork, and horns.. and if you were bad in life .. you get sent down there.. :unsure:

Beleivening things like this just doesnt make sense to me...

SOMEWHERE in the Universe there probably is another planet that can support life, and it probably does have life...

But if there's not and you still say like "Only this planet has conditions for life, that's too big to be a coincidence, we must have been created by some awesome power!" then if this God or 'power' or whatever you believe in could create life, why couldn't it it make more planets be able to support life?

:sneaky:

[Blackmane]

Originally posted by Mushlafa
Theres no proof something created us at all... if something could create living things just like that .. why dont other planets have inteligent life like ours... huh? Why did he pick just this planet.. when im sure theres many other planets out there with an atmosphere :unsure: by chance theres gotta be... I think if the conditions are right.. life will happen.. and very slowly but surely it will evolve into inteligent life somehow....

I dont understand how you can possible think that.. a human soul or ghost thing.. will fly out of our bodies when we die... and it goes up to the clouds.. but for some reason.. its heaven up there.. and you get to chill with a bunch of dead people.. i just cant see that... reincarnation is eaven worse... yep... when you die.. you get reborn as someone else but have no memory of your last life... yeah.. i dont think so... or deep down in the earths core.. there is a guy wit funky legs, a pich fork, and horns.. and if you were bad in life .. you get sent down there.. :unsure:

Beleivening things like this just doesnt make sense to me...

Why, if God made us, would he feel obligated to make more life on another planet? That to be is compelling evidence because most likely with the number of stars out there there should be more intelligent life out there, but as far as we know there isn't. Besides that, why does there have to be cut and dry proof that God definetely exists?

All religions have something to do with faith. This is what bugs me about so many people is that they believe that religion is like calculus or something, it may be hard, but the answers are there. Well, not all the answers are there for religion because it wouldn't be a religion if we all knew that God existed and it required no faith. Believing in nothing makes less sense than believing in something. Firstly, there is no compelling evidence that there ISN'T a heaven or a hell. So, why would you want to believe that when you die, everything goes black and thats it?

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Mushlafa
Theres no proof something created us at all... if something could create living things just like that .. why dont other planets have inteligent life like ours... huh? Why did he pick just this planet.. when im sure theres many other planets out there with an atmosphere :unsure: by chance theres gotta be... I think if the conditions are right.. life will happen.. and very slowly but surely it will evolve into inteligent life somehow....

Funny you mention atmosphere..:

Iron In the Qur’aan

In Soorah Al-Hadeed the 57th chapter of the Qur’aan in Ayaat 25 Allah states:

“Wa anzalnaal hadeed, feehi ba’sun shadeed, wa manaafi’u linaas (I have revealed (sent down) iron which has great force in it and benefit for humans)”

The term anzalnaa has been interpreted as "revealed" from the early generation of interpreters because it indeed has the meaning of "to reveal". Yet, even when Allah uses the term anzalnaa, for example in “Wa anzalnaa ilaykal Qur’aan lidh dhikr (We have revealed to you the Qur’aan for remembrance)” in reference to the Prophet Muhammad about the Qur’aan being revealed to him, it did actually involve coming down since it was sent down from the Lawhil-Mahfoudh, to Baitul-‘Izzah in the first heaven, and from there the angel Jibreel (Gabriel) brought verses down according to the command of Allah to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) so there was a process of coming down.

Now modern science, in looking at the issue of iron in the world, came to the conclusion that the origin of iron was from the core of the earth because the core of the earth is approximately 35% iron and then nickel. This is the molten core of the earth and as you go farther away from the core you get less and less iron until you get some 5.6% iron near the crust of the earth. Still it is amongst the highest elements in the crust percentage- wise, but it still appears to come from the inside outward. So where does the idea of the coming down of iron fit in? Again, the conclusion was it was revealed. That is, knowledge of its use was revealed to human beings. Allah gave them the capacity to understand and to utilize iron. This was the explanation given.

http://www.it-is-truth.org/images/Astronomy_10.jpg
The Sun's temperature is 27,000,000º Fahrenheit (i.e. 15,000,000º Celsius) at the center.

However, more modern research came to the conclusion that in fact iron couldn’t have begun in the core of the earth! It couldn’t have begun there! Why? Because the sun of our solar system, which is the hottest location in the solar system, in its own core only reaches - according to their calculation - approximately 15,000,000 degrees Celsius. Of course this is quite hot, however it is not hot enough to produce iron! The most common element in the universe is hydrogen, which is the first element in the periodic table, while helium is number two and everything else is a combination containing some fusion of the atoms of hydrogen and helium to produce other elements. Iron is way down the line. It is number 56 and as such, the heat which is necessary had to be in the billions of degrees! They estimate someplace it had to be around 5 billion degrees to produce iron. So our sun could not produce iron. So then where did the iron come from? This was the question puzzling researchers.

In the late eighties, studying stars, they came to realize of course that there were huge stars much greater than the Sun – our star – which did in fact in their degeneration, their evolution or development, generate the kind of heat that could produce iron when they went nova or super-nova. They exploded and iron shot out into the universe in the form of meteorites etc. Most of the meteorites which hit the Earth are made mostly of iron. So in looking back, scientists in the late eighties began to re-examine their view of the development of the Earth and they came to the conclusion that in fact what happened was the Earth - which was a produce of the evolution of the Sun - was like a ball of ash and that the meteorites hit the surface of the Earth and in hitting the surface it increased the heat of the Earth because with the impact there was energy released. So meteor showers hitting the Earth increased the heat enough to melt that iron, not produce iron, but to melt that iron and it would then sink through the surface towards the center of the Earth and became concentrated in the core of the earth and that’s how they explain it now.

You can find this in Stephen Hawking’s book called “A Brief History of Time” a best-seller from one of the biggest, most famous atheists out there and another book called ”The First Three Minutes” by Steven Weinberg. Both of them present the exact same picture of how iron came to the core of the Earth. So from that, we see iron actually coming down to the Earth as Allah described it.

Additionally, iron is the most stable element. The bonds which hold its atomic structure together are the strongest bonds of all of the other elements so it does have that “ba’sun shadeed”. And of course its benefit is that it being most of the Earth’s core it produced the basis of the gravitational pull of the Earth which holds the atmosphere and the biosphere around the Earth. Without that iron core to produce the gravitational field, we would not have any atmosphere on the Earth and no life would survive on the Earth! Critical! Furthermore, when you go into human beings there is hemoglobin, and when you go into plants chlorophyll. These are the essential elements that transform energy from material sources, from the Sun etc. to chemical energy in our bodies which allow the cells to grow. In everything, both human beings and plants, iron is essential for their development and this was described in the Qur’aan some 1400 years ago.

These are among the signs, for those who would reflect, that there is in fact a God. Life on Earth certainly WASN'T down to chance.

Further proof of how what was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed was from a higher being, and not a human source. None of this was known over 1400 years ago...

[manasecret]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
Funny you mention atmosphere..:

Iron In the Qur’aan

In Soorah Al-Hadeed the 57th chapter of the Qur’aan in Ayaat 25 Allah states:

“Wa anzalnaal hadeed, feehi ba’sun shadeed, wa manaafi’u linaas (I have revealed (sent down) iron which has great force in it and benefit for humans)”

It doesn't seem like proof to me at all. I read through the articles on your website (except for the birth one), and it sounds somewhat convincing but isn't like the Qur'aan explicitly states exactly that Iron was sent from a star not of our own because our sun is not hot enough. Nor does it explicitly explain how the planets were created, or the other things that website tries to prove the Qur'aan states 1400 years ago.

The quote you gave is said in a roundabout way, and the articles also seem to explain things in a roundabout way. They are saying things in a certain way to make it seem like it is absolute proof.

Like the translation of the quote up there, it says God "revealed" but then says "sent down." It seems like it's changing things around to make it seem more convincing.

I respect your beliefs, don't get me wrong. But what that website and article are doing is reminiscient of what people do with the Christian Bible and especially the book of Revelation. They manipulate the words said in order to make it seem like undoubtable "proof" of something else.

I admit it's interesting, and something I didn't know about Islam. But I personally don't think finding "proof" in holy books is necessary to believe in a God (though I don't believe in what Islam says you must believe about Allah).

The proof of God is all around us. A higher being anyway, and maybe multiple higher beings. Maybe a better description is that God is an extremely smart or "higher" alien race, one from outward of this universe or realm we know.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by Joeiss
I am just curious about what religion you all are. Also, do you believe that your religion is the right religion? Do you believe that only the people who believe in your religion will go to heaven?

I think that there is one God who created everything here on earth. And I think that Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians are people who just take different paths, but believe in the same God. Yep... therefore nobody is wrong... people just take different paths in life... YEP!

But I don't know about those atheists... Don't know where they go...lol

Hi.

I am a Muslim, and follow the religion of Islam. And Yes, I do believe my religion is the correct religion. Why is that?

It's plain and simple.

The Qur'an is Allah's words [God], it contains no contradictions such as the Bible, and many other Holy Books, and if you think it does have a contradiction, or something which is false, please bring it forth.

Allah [God] has challenged anyone to even come up with a chapter like the Qur'an, yet no one has succeeded, absolutely no one, doesn't this indicate it's true? Since no human-being, not even those with PHD'S can even attempt to imitate it?

Concerning the second question, do we believe that only the people in our religion will go to heaven? Well, we believe that those who testify to the one-ness of God, without attributing any partners will go to heaven one day. This is the main part of islam [Tauheed-oneness of Allah].

But there will also be many Muslims who wont go to heaven straight away, we aren't guaranteed paradise for free, we have to work for it, follow the commands set by God in his book [The Qur'an], and be sincere, and only do it to please HIM.

And about you believing that the other religions are right, like Hindu's and Christianity, well I just have one doubt about that, the bible contains so much contradictions, and Hindu's, they believe in Monkey's, so how can a lord be a Monkey? Worse than a human?

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Originally posted by Blackmane
Believing in nothing makes less sense than believing in something. Firstly, there is no compelling evidence that there ISN'T a heaven or a hell. So, why would you want to believe that when you die, everything goes black and thats it?

No evidence that there isn't a heaven or hell? How about the fact that nobody has ever been there? There's no compelling evidence that if you put all the cell phones in the world by eachother they'd turn into a monster, so do you believe in that? It's no different than believing heaven or hell other than the fact that there aren't millions of people brainwashed to believe it.

And how does believing that an all powerful being, (or "creature" or whatever you want to call god) who nobody can see, created people make more sense than... Well anything? Have you ever seen something that could create people using his magical powers? Maybe on a fairy tale, which is exactly what religions are.

And it's not about believing what you want to believe, it's what you actually think. Sure, I'd love to believe that when I die I can go to some huge place where all the other dead people are and meet Owen Hart, but it's about 100 times more believable that when I die, that's it, I'm dead.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by Mushlafa
I dont beleive in a god or heaven or hell... kinda feel like im missing out :unsure:

This was a short post, written by someone, on why we Muslims believe in Allah.

Also I ask you lot, why are we in this world? Would God just bring us for no reason? It is a test for us, to see what we do, and who are the true believers, and who aren't.

I have never seen Allah because I do not possess the ability to see Him. If we were to use the rationale that "if something cannot be detected by the standard five senses then it does not exist", then I would assume you are a mindless person because I cannot see, touch, hear, smell or taste your mind. But I know you have one because there is ample evidence.

I could ask you what kind of car you drive. I drive a Civic. I have never met any of the designers, the people who worked on the manufacturing process, or the people who test drove it, etc. I do not know their names. I do not know where they live or if they are even alive anymore.

But I know someone, some entity with the power to design and fashion such a complex object, did exist at one time or another. It is impossible and absurd to assume that the parts of the car somehow formed themselves altogether and then assembled themselves to form a car. I know a company called Honda exists and it is run by humans.

The same goes for other objects like houses, airplanes, rockets, etc. These required people to think about them, design, build and maintain them.

After all that, I find it very strange and absurd that people assume that something like the Earth or the Universe [which is infinitely more complex than a car or a house] could come together by itself. Surely there must be a Being out there who has designed this Universe and all that is in it, with great wisdom, and is also taking care of these Creations.

In English we call this Being by the name "God' and in Islam we use the Arabiy term "Allah". This term is used not only by Muslims but also by Arab-speaking Christians or Arab-speaking Jews to refer to God.

You asked if God has spoken to me. Yes He has. Not to me personally, but to all of Mankind. His words are what make up the Qur'an. It contains the words of God, which were recorded by men with great care. There are no mistakes in the Qur'an.

I challenge you to find any.

Every single copy of the Qur'an in the world today is the same word for word, letter for letter. Whether it is a copy from 1400 years ago or if it was printed just a week ago. Whether it is from China or Saudi Arabia or Brazil or America or Malaysia. It does not matter.

It is interesting to note the the British Crusaders tried, some time ago, to wipe out Islam by destroying all copies of the Qur'an. they offered vast incentives for people who would turn in their copies of the Qur'an. Most people had no idea what the British were doing. Eventually one man with two sons approached the British officer who was collecting the copies and told him that they would never be able to wipe out the Qur'an because, and then he pointed to his sons' chests, he told them that the Muslims keep the Qur'an protected in their hearts. There are Muslims, many of them, who have memorized the entire Qur'an.

The British gave up.

Regarding the standards we have in our religion, they are not man-made. They were set by God and His Messenger. If you insist otherwise, then bring forth your evidence.

[manasecret]

Originally posted by Almansurah
And about you believing that the other religions are right, like Hindu's and Christianity, well I just have one doubt about that, the bible contains so much contradictions, and Hindu's, they believe in Monkey's, so how can a lord be a Monkey? Worse than a human?

Wow. You're boiling down both religions to just that? First, present us with contradictions from the Bible, don't simply state it. I don't know about Hindus, but I doubt the only thing they believe is something about monkeys.

What about Jews? What about Buddhists?

If I were you I would show a little more respect for the other religions unless you want to get seriously flamed.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by manasecret
Wow. You're boiling down both religions to just that? First, present us with contradictions from the Bible, don't simply state it. I don't know about Hindus, but I doubt the only thing they believe is something about monkeys.

What about Jews? What about Buddhists?

If I were you I would show a little more respect for the other religions unless you want to get seriously flamed.

The reason why I havn't come up with contradictions yet, is because I could just give you a website, and say 'hey, check out the false bible,' but you could also give a link to me and say 'check out the contradictions in the Qur'an,' and hence the discussion will go no where, because I'll just be showing a site to you, so if you want contradictions, I will research some, i've read some before in the past.

And if you've got contradictions in the Qur'an, then please bring them forward.

[Almansurah]

This is a contradiction concerning the Easter story related in the Bible, it follows the following sequence, and shows a different range of stories in the different books:

New Testament Book / Author Statement / Witness Verse(s) [The book name is given first, then the statement, and the verse]

The Visitors to the Tomb

As you can see, there are different visitors related in each book:

Matthew "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary". 28:1
Mark "Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome". 16:1
Luke "Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women". 24:10
John "Mary Magdalene". 20:1

Their Purpose in Visiting the Tomb

Matthew They came "to see the tomb". Doesn't previously mention that the body was already spiced, but only "wrapped" (27:59). 28:1
Mark They "brought spices" in order to "anoint him". Doesn't previously mention that the body was spiced, but only "wrapped" (15:46). 15:47, 16:1
Luke To bring "the spices which they had prepared". Previous to this it mentions that the body was "wrapped" (23:53) and that the women "prepared spices" (23:56). 24:1
John No reason stated, but the body was "bound" with "spices" by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus on one of the day(s) previous to Sunday . Notice that Luke 23:55 says that "the women" observed the tomb and "how the body was laid" - but later had to return to bring the "spices which they had prepared" (24:1)!!! 19:38-40

The Time of the Visit to the Tomb

Matthew As it "began to dawn". 28:1
Mark It was "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NKJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV). 16:2
Luke It was "very early in the morning" (KJV); "very early in the morning" (NKJV); "at early dawn" (NRSV). 24:1
John It was "early, while it was still dark". 20:1

The Status of the Entrance of the Tomb

Matthew Closed, but opened by an angel after a "great earthquake". 28:2
Mark Open, since "the stone had been rolled away". They entered the tomb. 16:4-5
Luke Open, since "they found the stone rolled away". Seemingly their first visit to the tomb, since they were "greatly perplexed about this". 24:2-4
John Opened, and Mary runs to "Simon Peter, and to the other disciple". 20:1-2

The Angel(s)/Messenger(s) at the Tomb

Matthew One "angel of the Lord". 28:2-7
Mark One "young man clothed in a long white robe". 16:5
Luke Two "men" who "stood by them in shining garments". 24:4
John Two angels "in white" appear to Mary after "Simon Peter" and to the "other disciple" depart. 20:12

The Location of the Angel(s)/Messenger(s) at the Tomb

Matthew Angel spoke while sitting on the stone. 28:2
Mark Sitting inside the tomb, on the "right side". 16:5
Luke Standing "beside them" inside the tomb. 24:3-4
John Sitting "one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain". 20:12

The Statment(s) of the Angels(s)/Messenger(s)

Matthew "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and indeed he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him: Behold, I have told you." 28:5-7
Mark "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples - and Peter - that he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him, as he said to you." 16:6-7
Luke "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, saying, 'The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'" 24:5-7
John "Woman, why are you weeping?", Mary then turns around and sees Jesus, but doesn't recognize him. 20:13-14

Did the Visitors to the Tomb Tell Others?

Matthew Yes, since they "ran to bring his disciples word". 28:8
Mark No, since "they said nothing to anyone". Later it says that Mary Magdalene "went and told those who had been with him". 16:8; 16:10
Luke Yes, since "they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest". 24:9, 22-24
John Yes, since "Mary Magdelene came and told the disciples". 20:18

Did "Mary" Know That Jesus was Resurrected?

Matthew Yes. (28:7-8
Mark Yes. 16:10,11
Luke Yes. 24:10, 22-23
John No. 20:2, 14

Who was the "First" to see Jesus?

Matthew Apparently Mary Magdalene and Mary, since they "met" Jesus on the way to tell the disciples. 28:9
Mark Mary Magdalene was "first". 16:9
Luke Apparently the two on the road to Emmaus. 24:13
John Mary Magdalene. 20:14
When did "Mary" First See Jesus?
Matthew On her way to tell the disciples. 28:9
Mark Before she returned to the disciples. 16:9, 10
Luke Doesn't say. ---
John At the tomb, after the angel(s) spoke to her - "Simon Peter, and to the other disciple" had "went away".. 20:10, 14

Was Jesus in a Spiritual or Physical Body After the Resurrection?
Matthew Physical, since they "came and held him by the feet", even though he managed to get out of the tomb before the stone was rolled away. 28:9
Mark Like a spirit, since he "appeared" to Mary Magdalene, but "appeared" in "another form" to the two men on the road. 16:9, 12
Luke Physical, since Jesus says "a spirit does not have flesh and bones" and he eats. 24:39, 43
John Seemingly spiritual, since Jesus says "do not cling to me". However, Thomas later touches Jesus. 20:17, 27
The First Appearance of Jesus (After the Women)
Matthew To the "eleven disciples". 28:16
Mark To "two" disciples "in the country", but later he appears to "the eleven". 16:12,14
Luke To the two disciples travelling on the road to Emmaus, and later to "the eleven". 24:13,36
John A number is not stated, but Thomas - "one of the twelve" - was absent (along with Judas), so apparently only ten. 20:19, 24
Paul - I Corinthians To "Cephas" (i.e. Peter), and then to "the twelve" (even though all of the Gospels only mention "eleven", since Judas was already dead!!!) 15:5
The Location of Jesus’ First Appearance
Matthew On a mountain in Galilee, which is, at a minimum, between 60 and 70 miles away!!!. 28:16-17
Mark "In the country" to two disciples, but to the eleven "as they sat at the table". 16:12,14
Luke On the road to Emmaus (about seven miles from Jerusalem), and later to the disciples in a room in Jerusalem in the "evening". 24:29, 31, 33, 36
John In a room, during the "evening". 20:19

Did the Disciples of Jesus Believe the "Two Men"?

Matthew Not mentioned.. ---
Mark No, since "they did not believe them either". 16:13
Luke Yes; since "the eleven" were saying "The Lord is risen indeed . . . " - as if they already knew. 24:34
John Two men not mentioned. Doesn't say if they believed Mary. ---
What Happened at the Appearance of Jesus?

Matthew The disciples "worshipped him", though "some doubted", Jesus speaks. 28:17-18
Mark Jesus "rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart". 16:14
Luke Jesus, unrecognizable to any of them, materializes out of nowhere, and the discipes "thought they had seen a spirit". Jesus questions "the eleven", eats, and then "led them out as far as Bethany". 24:36-50
John Jesus appears "in their midst" (even though the "doors were shut") and the disciples were "glad" to see him. Jesus speaks, but does not reprimand them. 21:19-23

Did Jesus Stay on Earth for Very Long After the Ressurection?
Matthew Doesn't say. 28:17-18
Mark No, since he was "received up into heaven" after he had spoken. Note that John 20:19 says that the meeting took place on "the first day of the week" - i.e. Sunday.. 16:19
Luke No, since he ascends on Sunday evening - the same day of his resurrection. This can be deduced because on "that same day" (24:13), which was "the third day since" the crucifixion (24:20-21), he met the two on the road to Emmau and continued with them until it was "toward evening" (24:29). After recognizing Jesus that evening, the two "rose up that very hour and returned to Jeruslam" (24:33), where they met "the eleven". Jesus appeared to them as "they said these things" (24:36). Jesus speaks to them and then accompanies them "as far as Bethany" (24:50), where he then ascends (24:51). 24:13, 20-21, 29, 33, 36, 50-51
John Yes, at least "eight" days. 20:26
Acts Yes, since it specifies "forty" days. 1:3

The Location of Jesus’ Ascension into Heaven

Matthew No ascension reported and the book ends on the mountain in Galilee. ---
Mark In "Galilee", after meeting "the eleven". 16:7; 16:14
Luke In Bethany, near Jerusalem. 24:50-51
John Jesus' ascension is not mentioned. ---
Acts From the Mount of Olives. 1:9-12
Paul Never mentions the ascension. ---
Did Jesus Tell His Disciples to Stay in Jerusalem?
Matthew Not mentioned, but apparently not since they went to Galilee (a minium of 60-70 miles away). ---
Mark Not mentioned, but apparently he did not, since they went to Galilee (a minium of 60-70 miles away). ---
Luke Yes, he told them "tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high". After the ascension, they returned from Bethany "to Jersalam" and "were continually in the temple". The "power from on high " came fifty days after the resurrection on Pentecost (Acts 1 and 2). 24:50-53
John Not mentioned. ---
Acts Yes, he told them "not to depart from Jerusalem". 1:4

And 'Manasecret', you are right when you stated that the religions dont just boil down to what I stated, but anyway here's some more information on hinduism, if you need any refutation of these religions then please ask.

Hindus believe in many gods and goddesses. Some of them are human (e.g. Krishna, Rama [ 13 ]), some animals (e.g. fish, monkey, rat, snake), (some animal-humans as in the case of Ganesh who has the head of elephant with trunk and the body of a human), and some others are natural phenomena (e.g. dawn, fire, sun). Their number is generally believed to be 330 million. According to Hindu belief, god incarnates, i.e., takes the form of human being and other animals and appears in this earth in that form. Gods and goddesses were born like human beings and had wives and children. No god possesses absolute power; some of the gods are weaker than the sages and some others even weaker than the monkey (e.g. Rama).
Another aspect about Hindu gods is that the status of their godhood is not fixed. One finds that some gods were worshipped for a time and then abandoned and new gods and goddesses were adopted instead. The gods and goddesses worshipped now-a-days in Hindu homes and temples are not Vedic. The Vedic gods like Agni (fire), Surya (sun) Usha (dawn) are completely rejected and the gods and goddesses mentioned in the Puranas are worshipped by modern Hindus. Similarly, Rama who is currently receiving increasing acceptance among Hindus in India because of the wide propagation of the official and other media was never worshipped as a deity until the eleventh century.

[manasecret]

Originally posted by Almansurah
The reason why I havn't come up with contradictions yet, is because I could just give you a website, and say 'hey, check out the false bible,' but you could also give a link to me and say 'check out the contradictions in the Qur'an,' and hence the discussion will go no where, because I'll just be showing a site to you, so if you want contradictions, I will research some, i've read some before in the past.

And if you've got contradictions in the Qur'an, then please bring them forward.

I don't have contradictions to present and I don't plan on finding any. I respect your religion and your beliefs. And you're right, if I wanted to find some the discussion would be circular.

I think you missed my point in my post. My point was that I think you should give more respect to the other religions and not treat them so simply or condescendingly.

However, if you have contradictions to present then please post them. Unless you tell us what you think the contradictions to be, we don't actually know if they are contradictions. It may be something you believe is a contradiction while others may not.

So post some or post a link. I'd like to read some.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by manasecret


I think you missed my point in my post. My point was that I think you should give more respect to the other religions and not treat them so simply or condescendingly.


Yeh, you're right.

I didn't mean to disrespect any religion by stating what I stated, but I realise I was wrong about the Hindu's comment, stating they only believe in monkeys, which they dont. Sorry.

And in Islam, we are also commanded to respect everyones beliefs, and as it states 'There is no compulsion in religion.' So if anyone doesn't want to accept Islam, that is the road they take.......

[Angrist]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. :)

Tadaa it all makes sense now.

I'm very content with my religion. It's a very active one, so it takes up quite a lot of time. But that's really worth it, it keeps us awake and we really learn a lot about the bible and the coming Kingdom on earth.

As you can see, we are quite normal people. We even post on gaming forums! :D

Why do we visit you at home? Because Jesus tells us to do so in the bible. We don't earn money with it. Today, the work is totally paid by voluntary gifts. We personally don't keep the money you'd give us, it's used to finance the printing of the reading matter and stuff.
We believe we can save lives with this work.

Like most religions, we truly believe it's the right one. :)

A thing I like about my religion, is that we have 'family' everywhere. Last year I moved to another town for university, and right away I had really good friends. :D

[Shadow_Link]

Sorry, but NOTHING was manipulated! Please read the part about that again.

The sent down is a thing in brackets, not the actual translation... Hence it helps to expand the meaning to the common reader... I don't know where you got the idea from that words were manipulated. That's the miracle, and beauty of the Qur'aan, it's so simple, yet has an almost limitless depth of wisdom and information.

I don't see what's so roundabout about anything, even very famous, non-muslim astronomers, geologists, etc seem to marvel at how accurate, AND DETAILED the scientific details are in the Qur'aan. None of what is said in the Qur'aan could have come from human sources, totally impossible (which is also said by numerous scientists)... The only place those words in the Qur'aan came from is from a higher being, one that actually created the universe, one that knows the ins and outs of how things were made.

If you have any contradictions in the Qur'aan, or any questions, then bring them forth, because Allah has challenged anyone to make even a chapter like it, yet no one has succeeded.

And, if you have any more time, I strongly suggest you look at the stages of the human development article...

The point of the actual book [Qur'aan] is to show that islam is the truth, to order commands, and to prohibit certain things, and to give it as a manual to those who believe. It's a way of life.

"The Qur’aan is not a book of science but a book of ‘signs’, i.e. ayats. There are more than six thousand ‘signs’ in the Qur’aan of which more than a thousand deal with science. We all know that many a times Science takes a ‘U-turn’. In this book I have considered only established scientific facts and not mere hypotheses and theories that are based on assumptions and are not backed by proof."

(though I don't believe in what Islam says you must believe about Allah).

Could you please expand on that, I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say..?

[manasecret]

Originally posted by Almansurah
Yeh, you're right.

I didn't mean to disrespect any religion by stating what I stated, but I realise I was wrong about the Hindu's comment, stating they only believe in monkeys, which they dont. Sorry.

And in Islam, we are also commanded to respect everyones beliefs, and as it states 'There is no compulsion in religion.' So if anyone doesn't want to accept Islam, that is the road they take.......

Ok, cool. We can leave it at that I suppose.

Thanks for posting the contradictions. I see now what you mean by contradictions, contradictions in the exact details of certain events.

What I thought you meant was that there were contradictions in the values or beliefs that Jesus taught. I can see how contradictions such as the examples you gave may turn people away from the Christian Bible, but I think it's important to remember that the gospels were written many years after the events came to pass. Also I think it's important to remember that the principles and values preached are more important than the exact details, at least that's how it's taught to Catholics.

Also, thanks for the information on Hindus.

[Xantar]

I just want to make a comment here.

There have been a lot of really long posts in this thread. And the longest of them all wasn't written by me. How often does that happen? :D

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by manasecret
Ok, cool. We can leave it at that I suppose.

Thanks for posting the contradictions. I see now what you mean by contradictions, contradictions in the exact details of certain events.

What I thought you meant was that there were contradictions in the values or beliefs that Jesus taught. I can see how contradictions such as the examples you gave may turn people away from the Christian Bible, but I think it's important to remember that the gospels were written many years after the events came to pass. Also I think it's important to remember that the principles and values preached are more important than the exact details, at least that's how it's taught to Catholics.

Also, thanks for the information on Hindus.

Yep, that's what I mean by contradictions 'Manasecret.' :)

The Qur'an [Holy Book of Muslims] was also collected many years after the revelation had occured, but it was memorised by many of the people with the Prophet peace be upon him [Word for word], and hence was recorded all in order.

We Muslims believe the bible was also the word of God, and so was the Torah, but the fact of the matter is these books were distorted by common people, who had evil intentions.

As stated by a former Christian missionary, Dr Gary Miller:

The Bible consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.

Our book is one. It's been the same since it's been revealed. Compare our copy of the Qur'an to the old copies found in the library, and you would not even find a difference in one thing. I guarantee this. Just pick up the Qur'an and try read it, find anything wrong with it.

We hope God guides us all to the right path.

No Problem about information of Hindus. :)

[Angrist]

Hey aren't you surprised to have a Jehovah's Witness among you??? :confused: :D

About those 'contradictions': Some writers give more or less details than others. They sometimes use different ways of telling the same story. Most 'contradicions' can be solved like that. Call it cheap, but it works.

I've never found any controdictions in the bible. Sometimes things require some investment, but you'll find out that they make perfect sense.

Isn't it amazing that the more than 40 writers of the bible, of who most of them didn't know eachother, write so many things that agree with eachother???

The Quran is written by one person (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I'm not), it's not that hard to write a convincing book as when you have 40+ writers.

Edit: The bible is also a lot older.

[manasecret]

Before I start I'm not trying to say that what you believe is wrong, I'm simply saying that I personally don't consider it proof that the Qur'aan came from Allah. I respect what you believe.

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
Sorry, but NOTHING was manipulated! Please read the part about that again.

The sent down is a thing in brackets, not the actual translation... Hence it helps to expand the meaning to the common reader... I don't know where you got the idea from that words were manipulated. That's the miracle, and beauty of the Qur'aan, it's so simple, yet has an almost limitless depth of wisdom and information.

I don't see what's so roundabout about anything, even very famous, non-muslim astronomers, geologists, etc seem to marvel at how accurate, AND DETAILED the scientific details are in the Qur'aan. None of what is said in the Qur'aan could have come from human sources, totally impossible (which is also said by numerous scientists)... The only place those words in the Qur'aan came from is from a higher being, one that actually created the universe, one that knows the ins and outs of how things were made.

That's just the thing, "sent down" is not the actual translation yet they put it there to help "expand the meaning." To me that means manipulate it. Like I said, the Qur'aan doesn't explicitly say that something like "Because our Sun is not hot enough to produce Iron, Iron was sent to Earth from other stars beyond our galaxy because, as they burn much much hotter, they were able to create Iron." It says something that you have to read into beyond the literal in order to get that it "predicted" that's what happened.

Another example, and excerpt from the Qur'aan that I got from the "Creation of Man" article:

"Man we did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then we placed as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place firmly fixed; Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (‘alaqah); Then of that clot we made a (fetus) lump (mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature."

I admit it sounds convincing the way they explain it, but literally it says man was made from clay and went through different stages that don't actually explicitly explain the processes. You have to look past the literal to find that it could stand for all the stages of birth.

My point is, it takes faith to believe that the Qur'aan was made by God, and to me personally things such as what the articles say aren't absolute proof.


If you have any contradictions in the Qur'aan, or any questions, then bring them forth, because Allah has challenged anyone to make even a chapter like it, yet no one has succeeded.

And, if you have any more time, I strongly suggest you look at the stages of the human development article...

As I said, I don't have any contradictions to present. I'm confused by what "Allah has challenged anyone to make even a chapter like it, yet no one has succeeded" means. Like the Qur'aan how? I just don't get that statement.


Could you please expand on that, I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say..?

In the "What is Islam?" article, it gives a list of what "the true faithful Muslim believes," which is what I was referring to. I believe in a God but I don't believe in what that says I must believe about God (such as there is only one true God).

The list:
"The true faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:

Belief in one God (Allah), Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Forgiving, the Creator and the Provider, He begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none equal or comparable unto Him.

Belief in all Messengers of Allah (Ar-Rusul) without any discrimination among them, as every known nation had a Warner or Messenger from Allah. They were chosen by Allah to teach humanity and deliver His Divine message. The Qur'aan mentions the names of some of them, and Muhammad (sallAllahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood.

Belief in all original scriptures and revelations of Allah (Al-Kutub), accepting them as the guiding light that the messengers received to show their respective people the right path to Him. In the Qur'aan, special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (‘alaihimus salaam), but long before the revelation of the Qur'aan to .... "

And so on.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by Angrist
Hey aren't you surprised to have a Jehovah's Witness among you??? :confused: :D

About those 'contradictions': Some writers give more or less details than others. They sometimes use different ways of telling the same story. Most 'contradicions' can be solved like that. Call it cheap, but it works.

I've never found any controdictions in the bible. Sometimes things require some investment, but you'll find out that they make perfect sense.

Isn't it amazing that the more than 40 writers of the bible, of who most of them didn't know eachother, write so many things that agree with eachother???

The Quran is written by one person (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I'm not), it's not that hard to write a convincing book as when you have 40+ writers.

Then how come so much priests are becoming Muslims and writing articles which refute christianity?

And prove the refutations wrong.

I will repeat again, the bibles is full of contradictions, but if these contradictions are just made up by people, then please prove me wrong-I only posted one refutation, because there's no point in posting too much on it, when the first refutation cant be disproved.

[Angrist]

You have to understand that there are many believes withing chritianity. Some believes don't make much sense, because they can't answer most of the harder questions about the bible.

That doesn't mean the bible is wrong. We Jehovah's Witnesses have made a HUGE study on the bible, and we've discovered a lot of things that other believes don't know or believe. Things like you don't go to heaven or hell when you die. In fact, there is no burning hell. There is a heaven, but only 144,000 go there to (int he future) rule the earth together with Christ our King. Who do they rule?
Us, the normal people who lived a good life and deserve to live in a paradise, a paradise as God intended to make in the first place.

Things like that make the bible a lot more clear.

Oh yeah, the bible often uses illustrations. Things that didn't really happen. That can also seem to cause contradictions.

[Almansurah]

[b]That's just the thing, "sent down" is not the actual translation yet they put it there to help "expand the meaning." To me that means manipulate it. Like I said, the Qur'aan doesn't explicitly say that something like "Because our Sun is not hot enough to produce Iron, Iron was sent to Earth from other stars beyond our galaxy because, as they burn much much hotter, they were able to create Iron." It says something that you have to read into beyond the literal in order to get that it "predicted" that's what happened.[b]

The original language of the Qur'an is Arabic.

The Verse you're referring to is the following:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/57_25.gif

The meaning of the arabic 'Wa Anzal Hadeed' is literally to the nearest meaning 'And We brought forth iron.'

The translation the other member put was:

I have revealed (sent down) iron

They both mean the same thing. That Allah sent down iron. The Arabic is translated to English in different ways, some in classical English, whilst some is in standard English, but the meaning still doesn't change. But the best way to see the meaning of a verse, is to read up the tafseer [explanation] as well, and this clarifys everything.

And it isn't manipulating it.

The Qur'an doesn't have to explain everything in scientific detail to the dot, it is not a scientific book, it is a book which contains scientific details, in order to show man/woman that Islam predicted various things 1400 years ago, which are now becoming apparent, and true.

The Qur'an as stated by a previous member is a book to set a way of life for Muslims, and set commands and prohibitions, and just use it as a manual in our life-because it is the word of God.

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by Angrist
The Quran is written by one person (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I'm not), it's not that hard to write a convincing book as when you have 40+ writers.

Edit: The bible is also a lot older.


Well technically, the Qu'ran might have been written by several people... But Muhammod memorized it, and passed it down to his people.

And yes, the bible is about 600 years older I think. But, if you are a Muslim, this is the way that it was meant to be. This is because Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, and he was just spreading Allah's word. Jesus' best teaching was "Treat others as you would like to be treated" (at least that is what I think that Muslims believe his best teaching was).

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Joeiss
Well technically, the Qu'ran might have been written by several people... But Muhammod memorized it, and passed it down to his people.

And yes, the bible is about 600 years older I think. But, if you are a Muslim, this is the way that it was meant to be. This is because Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, and he was just spreading Allah's word. Jesus' best teaching was "Treat others as you would like to be treated" (at least that is what I think that Muslims believe his best teaching was).

I'm not totally sure about the last part of your post, but everything you said was right.

Angrist, the Qur'aan wasn't written by one person... It was firstly memorised by that one person, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, over a period of time. He was memorising what the angel Gabriel revealed to him, the words of God. He couldn't have written it, as he couldn't read nor write. One person came up with the idea to copy down the memorisation. So the Qur'aan wasn't written by people, but copied.

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
I'm not totally sure about the last part of your post, but everything you said was right.

Angrist, the Qur'aan wasn't written by one person... It was firstly memorised by that one person, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, over a period of time. He was memorising what the angel Gabriel revealed to him, the words of God. He couldn't have written it, as he couldn't read nor write. One person came up with the idea to copy down the memorisation. So the Qur'aan wasn't written by people, but copied.


Well, at the Mosque that I went to in November, the guy said that, I think. Well, at least I remember him saying that about Jesus... could be wrong though.

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Joeiss
Well, at the Mosque that I went to in November, the guy said that, I think. Well, at least I remember him saying that about Jesus... could be wrong though.

Oh, I don't know whether you're right or wrong, I wasn't sure myself :D.

You are probably right though... I'll try and find out.

[Jewels]

i am christian, even though i quit going to church like when i was little and ever since we got a new minister and our church i just dont like him and how he runs things, the last one was the bomb, well anywho.. all i had to say

[Joeiss]

I think the only thing stopping me from converting to Islam is by weed and alcohol adiction... well, not weed anymore.. i have been off that since septemeber... but alcohol... ye

[Bond]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
Oh, I don't know whether you're right or wrong, I wasn't sure myself :D.

You are probably right though... I'll try and find out.
Shadow Link, how does Islam address democracy, women's rights, and people's freedom to choose their own destiny?

And I have an odd feeling Shadow Link invited Almansurah to debate...

[Joeiss]

Women's rights are great in the Islam religion. I do not know the major details, but Allah created men and women as equals.

Also, if you were wondering about the veils that the women wear. This is not because they are under harsh laws where they are forced to wear veils. They wear them because it says in the Qu'raan that men should only look at women from behind a curtain or something... To prevent impure thoughts and such before marriage.

Yep... I think that is correct... Or else I just totally gave you guys the wrong information on a religion that I only know some stuff about, lol

[quiet mike]

I am a christian. Being a christian was first an insult the roman empire gave to the followers of Christ. It became the name of the believers. The christian faith has devided in time in many cults:
- Orthodox
- Catholic
- Lutheran
- Protestant
- Calvinistic
- Methodist
- Bapthist
- Penticostal
- Covenant
- Neoprotestant
- Jehova's Whitnesses

I personally am a penticostal, and believ that only by receiving the sacrifice of Jesus as the remedy of our sinfull lives you can go to Heaven, which I believe it exists. Hell also exists, but it is not necesarely a place with fire. Satan is not a two horned red beast with a triton in his hands. He was the mightiest of all angels and now he comes as an angel of light in order to decieve people and make them follow in his suffering since Hell was made for him and his angels that followed him and not for humans. But all those that follow Satan are to go where he is going.



From the discussion I see here I want to clear something for my faith and you go search if I'm telling the truth or not.

The Bible has no contradictions!
What Almansurah posted is very hard to follow if you don't know the Bible. But if you read all 4 gospels, you will see that they don't argue of who was at the tomb, how the stone was moved, but they look from different perspectives. One only follows Maria Magdalene, the others follow two or more of the women that went that Sunday morning. And even though it was told 4 different ways, it was dawn. And I can go on about all the things that were posted and show you how it's just a different perspective on the same thing.

The Qu'raan was written by more than one person but since it was something memorized word by word, they all knew the same exact thing.
The Bible was also written by more persons, but they each wrote the way they saw or heared (Luke) the things (in the Gospels). But there is no contradiction anywhere in the bible, where it is said something about an event and being contradicted in another place. It is the same thing happening the same way, viewed from a different perspective.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by Joeiss
Women's rights are great in the Islam religion. I do not know the major details, but Allah created men and women as equals.

Also, if you were wondering about the veils that the women wear. This is not because they are under harsh laws where they are forced to wear veils. They wear them because it says in the Qu'raan that men should only look at women from behind a curtain or something... To prevent impure thoughts and such before marriage.

Yep... I think that is correct... Or else I just totally gave you guys the wrong information on a religion that I only know some stuff about, lol

Wow, you know a lot. Infact, some Muslims wouldn't have even said it better than you have stated there. And yes you're deffinitely correct on what you've said.

*Agrees with above.

[Joeiss]

The bible I guess has no contradictions... But there are alot of things that could be metaphorical, not real in it... I don't remember any examples, but I watched a cool program on it on A&E!

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by quiet mike


The Bible has no contradictions!
What Almansurah posted is very hard to follow if you don't know the Bible. But if you read all 4 gospels, you will see that they don't argue of who was at the tomb, how the stone was moved, but they look from different perspectives. One only follows Maria Magdalene, the others follow two or more of the women that went that Sunday morning. And even though it was told 4 different ways, it was dawn. And I can go on about all the things that were posted and show you how it's just a different perspective on the same thing.

The Qu'raan was written by more than one person but since it was something memorized word by word, they all knew the same exact thing.
The Bible was also written by more persons, but they each wrote the way they saw or heared (Luke) the things (in the Gospels). But there is no contradiction anywhere in the bible, where it is said something about an event and being contradicted in another place. It is the same thing happening the same way, viewed from a different perspective.

The bible has no contradictions? Puh-Lease, the bible is full of contradictions, I state again, if you want me to post more, I will. And i've challenged you to post contradictions in the Qur'an, and InshAllah by the will of Allah, they will be refuted with ease, and with explanation, and not by stating that's not a contradiction since it's misinterpreted.

God doesn't need 4 books to look from different perspectives, God only needs to set one book with 1 perspective. What a hard religion, if I have to search through so much books, and then get confused in the middle. Doesn't that prove something?

The Qur'an is just one book, available anywhere in the world.

How can the Bible be the word of God, when it's been tampered with, and set from different perspectives? Cant you see how your books have been tampered with, and set rise to all these contradictions?

[Joeiss]

The Christian bible was inspired by God... I do not think that anybody said that he wrote it or something.

[Lord Germano]

I, like quiet mike, am I penticostal christian. Yes, I believe that my religion is right.

My church's website (http://rci.org.au)

I may be back latter

[Smuggletrain]

I'm a satanist. Before any of you jump on a bandwagon just let me explain
something. Satanist do not worship the devil, those
are devil worshippers and something entirely different from
satanism. Basically the whole concept is the view of "Do what
thou will and let that be the extent of the law." Every time I see
a person claiming to be a satanist on TV and spouting on about
Anton LeVey I start laughing. True satanism isn't something
you pick up a book to learn. It all boils down to let your conscience
be your guide. I have never and don't foresee myself dancing
around with a goat skull on my head praising the devil.Satanism
is kind of between agnostics and atheists, we just don't file
a lawsuit every time we see the word God.

The Christian church really pisses me off. How can they be
against Halloween and yet support Christmas and Easter? All of
them are pagan holidays. Halloween = Samhain,
Christmas = Yule, Easter = Beltane. Christmas was actually
denounced by the church and banned in England for years. It
wasn't celebrated in America until the late 1800's.

Also, how in the hell can homosexuals be allowed into a church
when their lifestyle is specifically denounced in the Bible? The
Bible also states that the man is the head of the household. Not
many of todays women would be so supportive of the church if
that rule was enforced. I see so many people in the church
drinking, smoking, and fornicating Saturday night and praising
God Sunday morning. Asking Jesus for salvation is only part of
being saved. You must make an active attempt to refrain from sin.
I don't think God likes people playing pick and choose with his
rules.

As for Angrist, as a church I believe the Jehovah's Witness is
closer to having Christianity right than the other churches. The
only spots I'm unclear on are:

1) The belief that the antichrist came to Earth in 1914 or somewhere there-abouts and

2) Knowing which people are going to Heaven.

Feel free to explain these two to me because I am actually
interested to know.

As for the Muslim belief, I really don't know enough about it to
make an informed decision. However if you believe flying jets into
skyscrapers assures a place in the afterworld then you are wrong.
I know there are extremists in every religion and I'm hoping that
they are the exception rather than the rule.

I know this was a long post but I could talk about this for hours.
None of my comments were meant as personal digs at anyone
and I hope they are not mistaken as such. Everyone is entitled to
their own personal beliefs.

[Professor S]

1) Anton LaVey didn't worship Satan (not sure if that was what you were implying, but if it was you are quite wrong)

2) Everything you are saying basically repeats LaVeyan Satanism, so whether you read his book or not you are influenced by his ideaology.

3) A true Satanist wouldn't give a crap about Christianity or go to all the trouble to scream holy hell about it and point out its Pagan roots. They are common knowledge as the Catholic Church has made a long time practice of encorporating pagan ritual into Christianity. Why do you think Catholicism has all the ritual to begin with?

I am not a Satanist, but I am a student of the occult, and of all the cults out there, Satanism is the one I find the most laughable. Its basically a religion based on being a complete and utter ***hole.

As foir the whole Bible vs. Q'uran argument, if you think that EITHER of those texts haven't been changed numerous times of the course of several millenia you're BOTH kidding yourselves. They are cololections of parables for one to live one's life by, and NOT meant to be taken completely literally. It has been shown that those who do take them literally tend to act in ways that are completely against their own text's teachings.

[Rndm_Perfection]

I was born a Christian, but I have my doubts. As well, I think it naive to think that all believe in the same God, so long as they believe in one. As well, believing in God is one thing, but practicing the correct forms of worship and maintaining spiritual/moral values is what is important if someone truly believes that it is what is necessary to go to heaven.

I have my doubts, and they are reasonable. I'm just thinking how a buch of guys collaborated and decided to write up a bunch of stories which they thought God had called out to them.

There was always a "leader of the pack". And, there were always people thinking up reasons for why they are living. Thus, a creation, whether by God or many gods would have been thought up. What makes you believe that your one god, having come from one spot in "Middle-Eastish area", is more correct than the numerous gods of other histories?

Everyone has their own beliefs, and it is completely impossible to tell which is correct... or even if all of them are incorrect.

Ultimately, I greatly believe that the Bible's secondary, if not primary, purpose was to maintain order in a civilization. If everyone believed in a higher being and thought that they had to do good in their life to have a wonderful afterlife, then fewer people would be unhappy. Take, for instance, the fact that it is a sin to steal from your neighbor. Personally, I believe that a human would have higher value of their items, than a god's value of someone working for themselves.

*shrugs* If there is one thing that makes me believe in a higher power, it's "The Bible Code".

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by The Strangler

As foir the whole Bible vs. Q'uran argument, if you think that EITHER of those texts haven't been changed numerous times of the course of several millenia you're BOTH kidding yourselves. They are cololections of parables for one to live one's life by, and NOT meant to be taken completely literally. It has been shown that those who do take them literally tend to act in ways that are completely against their own text's teachings.

Yeh Yeh, and i'm the president of Mars and the sky aint Blue.

Bring forth a mistake in the Qur'an, bring anything to show me it isn't the word of God? Supply the firepower along with the words, supply the proof of your statements, show me some claims so I can believe you.

The Qur'an has not been changed. Check any Qur'an copy in the world, and you will notice this, compare this to any Qur'an copy in a library [Check the oldest one too], and you will notice they are all the same.

I dont think you seem to know the Arabic language well, but basically it's easily memorisable, infact the Qur'an is very easy to memorise, just like getting a song stuck in your head. Many people know the Qur'an by heart, and that's how it was transmitted, and then written. Even to this day, there are MANY people who know the whole Qur'an by heart.

God's words are meant to be taken literally, he is our Lord, our sustainer, our providor, the Omnipresent, Omnipotent, there is nothing like them, so WHY wouldn't he want us to obey his words?

The Qur'an is a easy book to understand, and we Muslims do take it as literally, whatever it says we must follow, if we dont have a valid excuse for not following it, then we are gaining ourselves sins.....

[Shiz]

im jewish... thought i'd let everyone know :)

[Professor S]

Originally posted by Almansurah
Yeh Yeh, and i'm the president of Mars and the sky aint Blue.

Bring forth a mistake in the Qur'an, bring anything to show me it isn't the word of God? Supply the firepower along with the words, supply the proof of your statements, show me some claims so I can believe you.

The Qur'an has not been changed. Check any Qur'an copy in the world, and you will notice this, compare this to any Qur'an copy in a library [Check the oldest one too], and you will notice they are all the same.

I dont think you seem to know the Arabic language well, but basically it's easily memorisable, infact the Qur'an is very easy to memorise, just like getting a song stuck in your head. Many people know the Qur'an by heart, and that's how it was transmitted, and then written. Even to this day, there are MANY people who know the whole Qur'an by heart.

God's words are meant to be taken literally, he is our Lord, our sustainer, our providor, the Omnipresent, Omnipotent, there is nothing like them, so WHY wouldn't he want us to obey his words?

The Qur'an is a easy book to understand, and we Muslims do take it as literally, whatever it says we must follow, if we dont have a valid excuse for not following it, then we are gaining ourselves sins.....

You are going about things backward. If you want me to believe that the Qur'an is true, you have to prove it to ME, I don't need to disprove it. To me its just ba collection of words and is as valid as Norse Mythology, the Old Testament or Greek Mythology. It may be absolute truth to you, but its not to a whole lot of people to say the least.

By the way, if you do take the Qur'an literally, then you must agree with the whole "killing of infidels (read: anyone who ain't muslim) will gain you acceptance to nirvana and fifty whores sucking your knob while you eat a steak sandwich". So, I suppose you and great friends with Osama Bin Ladin and are planning a suicide bombing as I write this.

As for memorization, thats hilarious. The stories in the Qur'an were told word of mouth long before they were put to paper. This is when changes are made. Has it been changed as many times as the Bible? Probably not, but its still 99% likely that it has changed over the course of several thousand years.

But keep on spouting about how the Qur'an has never changed and is the literal word of God. Its much easier to simply repeat what you've been told rather than actually think for yourself.

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by The Strangler
You are going about things backward. If you want me to believe that the Qur'an is true, you have to prove it to ME, I don't need to disprove it. To me its just ba collection of words and is as valid as Norse Mythology, the Old Testament or Greek Mythology. It may be absolute truth to you, but its not to a whole lot of people to say the least.

By the way, if you do take the Qur'an literally, then you must agree with the whole "killing of infidels (read: anyone who ain't muslim) will gain you acceptance to nirvana and fifty whores sucking your knob while you eat a steak sandwich". So, I suppose you and great friends with Osama Bin Ladin and are planning a suicide bombing as I write this.

As for memorization, thats hilarious. The stories in the Qur'an were told word of mouth long before they were put to paper. This is when changes are made. Has it been changed as many times as the Bible? Probably not, but its still 99% likely that it has changed over the course of several thousand years.

But keep on spouting about how the Qur'an has never changed and is the literal word of God. Its much easier to simply repeat what you've been told rather than actually think for yourself.

I'll be back to comment later and answer other questions, but just a brief post first. (I've been very busy lately)...

First off, your post shows how naive you are about Islam, and the contents of the Qur'aan. Even non-muslims aknowledge the beauty of the Qur'aan, and say how it IS a true miracle, and the true religion, yet don't convert due to some reason or another. I suggest you actually read the Qur'aan, or learn about it your own way. I think it is quite patently obvious you haven't really read anything about it, yet to have the gaul to make something up like the 'killing of infidels' will get you into heaven, is in the Qur'aan... That joke about planning a suicide bombing wasn't funny either. If you want to know something, just ask, instead of showing how you don't know anything about Islam. Suicide is TOTALLY forbidden in Islam, and nowhere in the Qur'aan does it say it is allowed. In fact, it is said that the method you use to kill yourself with, will be what will used to kill you repeatedly in Hell.

Your argument is pretty weak Strangler, there is absolutely NO proof at all that the Qur'aan has been changed. I think the correct way to go about it is if YOU try to find proof that it has been changed, (like how it is easy to find proof that other holy books have been changed), since you made the original statement that it had been. I think the challenge HAS been set for you... Just try and find anything different in any and evry Qur'aan in existance, it will be utterly hopeless, because many have TRIED, and FAILED, and I find it amusing that you're probably the only person that refutes the statement that the Qur'aan is indeed in the form it was when it was revealed. Even Priests, people who have dedicated so much time and effort, conclude that there is nothing changed within the Qur'aan, and that is why many of them actually convert to Islam...

But don't take my word for it, please read the links provided. Within them, the writer gives a perfectly acceptable reason as to why the Qur'aan is still in an untouched form, you may find this in the Use and Mention of Words section and everything after it in the first link...

I'll just refer you to this site, if you have time, please read the two articles (I'm not saying you should or anything, but I'd like to know that when you do ask a question or something, you'd have read the articles I've presented first)... Warning, the articles are long, but, to me atleast, they are very interesting, and a must read for those unfamilair with the Qur'aan and Islam:

First one... (I recommend you ATLEAST read everything from 'Use and Mention of Words') (http://www.thetruereligion.org/basisbelief.htm)

Second one... (http://www.thetruereligion.org/biblequran.htm)

I'll be back in a few days/one week, and hopefully answer any questions outstanding.

[Bond]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link

I'll be back in a few days/one week, and hopefully answer any questions outstanding.
Yeah, how about my questions sir. :mad:

;)

[Professor S]

Shadow Link, I never said anything about Islam not being a valid religion. It is. But its not any more valid than any other religion in the world, and that is what I have a problem with in Almansurah's posts. He screams about how Islam is the one true religion while all others are crap.

As for proof of violence against "Infidels" in the Qur'an? Here's a couple of quotes:

"IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

"IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God."

"IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

"IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."

"VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's."

Now I repeat, should the Qur'an be taken literally? Should faithful muslims search out "unbelievers" and kill them wherever they find them because God will reward them in life or death? Do you want to contradict me again after showing the proof you have asked me for?

BTW, I read some of what you posted including the usage of words portion. I'm glad to see that every word was perfected so that we know exactly what the Qur'an means when it repeatedly uses the word "kill".

As for non-violence and anti-oppression against women mentioned ealier in this thread:

[4:34] "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."

Now I understand that the true meaning of this text is that if a man is "forced" to beat his wife, it shows a failure on his part and therefore is more in symbolic favor of the woman, but that doesn't save the woman from a beating at the hands of an incompetant husband or keep her from being forced into a certain lifestyle.

Now I have nothing against Islam on the whole as a religion, but the rhetoric does lend itself to inspiring zeal so much as to create violence at times, and I believe this has to do very much with the literal interpretation of the Qur'an by some sects. To take the Qur'am literally to to endorse the death of all Christians, Jews and other non-muslim people.

[Angrist]

Smuggletrain, it's true that a lot of believes within christianity have a lot of 'rituals' that have their origin in different religions (Trinity, Christmas, burning hell,...), but is that the reason to abandon the whole christianity? Why don't you find a religion that doesn't have all those false believes??

[Lord Germano]

Eactly smuggletrain. To say something like that is a big fat generalisation, with all the diferent branches (The bulk of which stated in quiet mikes post)

[TheGame]

I didn't read many of the other posts, just wanted to comment on this:

Originally posted by Joeiss
I think that there is one God who created everything here on earth. And I think that Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians are people who just take different paths, but believe in the same God. Yep... therefore nobody is wrong... people just take different paths in life... YEP!

There are too many cases in which different beliefs contradict each-other. I mean, Bhudisim and Christianity can't both be right.

I believe that we have no right to judge other religions because they could possibly be other patsh that god set up for people who don't have access to other religions. But... when two things but heads one or the other must be false.

I belive in one heaven, one hell, and one God... and the ten commandments. If a religion directly conflicts with this (like most tend to do) I would say they are following the wrong path, period. Now, if they believe in somthing similar to the ten commandments a God, and believe in heaven and hell, then it's not my place to judge... I'm not God.

To Strangler:

I have read that before, and there is no excuse for it. Osama is muslim and he does directly follow the Koran. Most movie stars and athletes who are islam were trying to say that that isn't what the Qur'an speaks of, and that Osama follows a peverted form of thier religion. Looking at the quotes you just posted it's not hard to believe that he is directly following what the Qur'an says.

Basically what I get from it is... if they follow another religion, and they don't convert, kill them. Directly conflicts with the beliefs of most religions... including my beliefs.

[Joeiss]

Originally posted by TheGame
[B]I didn't read many of the other posts, just wanted to comment on this:

There are too many cases in which different beliefs contradict each-other. I mean, Bhudisim and Christianity can't both be right.

That is why I did not say Bhudism. Bhudists do not believe in a supreme being, the just focus on themself, karma, and meditation.

I believe that we have no right to judge other religions because they could possibly be other patsh that god set up for people who don't have access to other religions. But... when two things but heads one or the other must be false.

But how do we choose which one is the right one, and which is false? This is why I said that the four religions are just different paths. There is no point in fighting amongst one another when we can all just respect our differences instead of fighting.

I believe in one heaven, one hell, and one God... and the ten commandments. If a religion directly conflicts with this (like most tend to do) I would say they are following the wrong path, period. Now, if they believe in somthing similar to the ten commandments a God, and believe in heaven and hell, then it's not my place to judge... I'm not God.

Are you Jewish? Or by God do you mean the Holy Trinity, and you do believe Jesus' teachings, right? I am pretty sure you are a Christian, I just want to confirm it because the 4 things you listed can be found in the Jewish Holy Book (sorry, forget what it is called, lol).

[Almansurah]

"IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

This verse is dealing with not killing anyone who is innocent. Why would God want the innocent to be killed for no reason? It defies reason.

The verse is referring to when war becomes inevitable [Read up any commentary on the Qur’an, particularly for us people who don’t understand Arabic, and also just read the verses before, and check what the chapter is dealing with].

So the verse is saying War must be persecuted with complete vigour if WAR is inevitable i.e all democratic options have been exhausted to the brim. In one particular commentary of this verse it is stated ‘According to the English phrase, you cannot fight with kid gloves. The fighting may take form of killing, capture, or siege, or ambush and other stratagems, but even if there is room for repentance and amendment of the part of the guilty party, and if that takes place, our duty Is forgiveness and the establishment of peace.’

So basically this verse is dealing with WAR.

"IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God."

You've missed out the verse before it:

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allâh, and for those weak, ill_treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."

"IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

This verse is referring to a person who by false pretences comes into the inner counsels of e.g a government, or Islamic state [Khalifah], merely to betray them, he may be rightly treateas as a traitor, and be punished for his treason, if he escapes, he can be treated as an enemy. He is worse than an enemy,he has claimed to be one of you in order to spy on you, and been all the time helping the enemy.

] "IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."[/B

This is referring to a fighter who has left the life of this world, just to please his lord, and fight to defend people, or defend his land, fighting in the cause of Allah. If he is killed, he is termed as a shaeed [A martyr]. So I dont know what you're trying to prove by all these verses? Because there is no mention of violence against infidels.

[B]"VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's."

Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

If someone stops disbelieving, and starts believing in the correct Lord, with a sincere repentance, and a new change, then he will be forgiven for all his past. And if they continue to disbelieve in Allah, then there have been many nations in the past which have been destroyed......

[Professor S]

Thats all very well and good, but one cannot deny that it is very easy to rationalize violence against non-muslims by using those quotes, and you haven't exactly come out saying that those quotes don't directly inflame violence against "non-believers". There's a thing called tolerance, look into it.

These verses are very easily used to justify any kind of terrorism, and when it is said that all words in the Qur'an are perfected, its hard to argue against that. Literal translation justifies violence. It does not that God/Allah will kill those that are unbelievers, it says that YOU should kill unbelievers. This is not an arguable point.

Many of the calls to violence may seem good intentioned to you, but its all relative. Fanatic Muslim "good intentions" may not coincide with common morality.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by The Strangler
As for non-violence and anti-oppression against women mentioned ealier in this thread:

[4:34] "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."

Now I understand that the true meaning of this text is that if a man is "forced" to beat his wife, it shows a failure on his part and therefore is more in symbolic favor of the woman, but that doesn't save the woman from a beating at the hands of an incompetant husband or keep her from being forced into a certain lifestyle.

Now I have nothing against Islam on the whole as a religion, but the rhetoric does lend itself to inspiring zeal so much as to create violence at times, and I believe this has to do very much with the literal interpretation of the Qur'an by some sects. To take the Qur'am literally to to endorse the death of all Christians, Jews and other non-muslim people.

Concerning the verse you quoted about 'beating.'

The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough, not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick). I'm sure you dont know what a miswak is, but it's kind of like a toothbrush, infact it's very soft, it's like a twig, but even thinner than a twig, and very soft, and the 'beating' is not really a 'beating.' It is just like a symbolic gesture. This was also reported in the Sunnah [The way of our prophet peace be upon him]

We also know from the hadiths and sirah (biography) of the prophet (pbuh) that he has always urged men not to abuse or hit their wives. In fact, he is known to have never hit his wives, servants, an animal, or “a thing”.

Allah orders us to live in peace and harmony with our spouses. In Surah 30, verse 21 He says:

*{And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are signs for those who reflect.}*

Also, He says in Surah 2, verse 187:
They are your garments and ye are their garments

[TheGame]

Originally posted by Joeiss
But how do we choose which one is the right one, and which is false? This is why I said that the four religions are just different paths. There is no point in fighting amongst one another when we can all just respect our differences instead of fighting.

Agreed... we shouldn't fight, but that doesn't mean we should respect out differences. I mean, when a person believes that they will go to heaven by running an airplane into a building and killing just because most of the people disagree with thier beliefs, I think that there is a huge problem.

See, I can't get mad at a religion who knows the difference between right and wrong by the bible's standards... A sin is a sin...

Are you Jewish? Or by God do you mean the Holy Trinity, and you do believe Jesus' teachings, right? I am pretty sure you are a Christian, I just want to confirm it because the 4 things you listed can be found in the Jewish Holy Book (sorry, forget what it is called, lol).

I'm Christain... and yes, by god I mean the father, the son, and the holy spirit. I think if them as one... and when I refer to "god" I mean the trinity.

[Professor S]

Almansurah, you are doing lot of interpreting of text that is not meant to be interpreted according to your and Shadow Fox's previous posts. I'm sure you don't view this as interpretation, but then again others that view the text quoted as permission to beat their wives savagely probably view their interpretation as the absolute word of Allah. This is shown by the Taliban's frequent beating and submission of women for failing to cover themselves completely and the occurances of western women having rocks and sticks thrown at them. Early commentators aside, while the exact extent of beating remains vague, the endorsement of wife beating is still in the Qur'an and quite clear.

The whole hard line of the Qur'an being absolute truth, void of wasted words and only filled with the perfected speech of Allah lends itself to these abuses. Everyone's interpretation is taken as absolute truth, and there can be NO variation or other interpretation.

At the end of your post you list a quote for the Qur'an where Allah says all should live together in peace, but you can't deny that the posts I quoted exist in the Qur'an and call for violence against disbelievers and the submission of women. Do you still think the Qur'an is devoid of contradictions?

[Joeiss]

Justin, so what do you think will happen to Muslims, Jews and Hindus when they die?

[TheGame]

Originally posted by Joeiss
Justin, so what do you think will happen to Muslims, Jews and Hindus when they die?

Exactly what the Bible says will happen to them. If anything different happens, it's god's decision. I'm not god, so I can't speculate or judge anybody, I can only go by the words he has given me... period.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by The Strangler
Almansurah, you are doing lot of interpreting of text that is not meant to be interpreted according to your and Shadow Fox's previous posts. I'm sure you don't view this as interpretation, but then again others that view the text quoted as permission to beat their wives savagely probably view their interpretation as the absolute word of Allah. This is shown by the Taliban's frequent beating and submission of women for failing to cover themselves completely and the occurances of western women having rocks and sticks thrown at them. Early commentators aside, while the exact extent of beating remains vague, the endorsement of wife beating is still in the Qur'an and quite clear.

The whole hard line of the Qur'an being absolute truth, void of wasted words and only filled with the perfected speech of Allah lends itself to these abuses. Everyone's interpretation is taken as absolute truth, and there can be NO variation or other interpretation.

At the end of your post you list a quote for the Qur'an where Allah says all should live together in peace, but you can't deny that the posts I quoted exist in the Qur'an and call for violence against disbelievers and the submission of women. Do you still think the Qur'an is devoid of contradictions?

No I am not interpreting the text. I am just reading the Qur'an, in what context it was revealed. The Qur'an was revelead in 23 years, and different verses were related on different events, for example some of the verses you quoted about 'Killing' is related to one of the battles called Hunain.

And concerning Taliban's frequent beating of women [I dont want to really talk about politics, and enter this field, since we'll just go round in circles], but just because you've seen a few pictures on TV of that happening, doesn't mean that the whole Taliban were like that. What about their good points, 100% Peace to the areas which were in internal strife, complete wipeout of drugs....but anyway, as I said I dont want to enter this discussion, since it's about religion. But remember, there are always 2 sides to a story.

The Qur'an is devoid of any contradictions, if you think what you posted are contradictions, then i've just gotta say, that those verses dealing with 'killing' are related to war, and peace is related to when there is no war, or a need of war. Just read it up in the context the chapter is in, and you will see.

[Professor S]

Ok, I see your points, but I can't agree with them. I still see the contradictions that you don't. Seaparating religious ideaology into separate "peace" and "war" philophies being one of them.

As for the Taliban's "good" points, I think you're REALLY stretching it there, even to the point of absurdity. As for whiping out drugs, wasn't Afghanistan's main agricultural product Poppy Plants which are used to make Opium? And what good is curing internal strife if it means the subjugation of your own people? The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

The more I look the more contradiction I see, even if you don't.

And I wasn't referring to a few pictures I saw on TV, but to a full length documentary made by an investigative journalist who went undercover for a year as an Afghany woman under a Burka (sp?). I'll try and see if I can find a link to it as it was quite disturbing.

But overall you have your view and I have mine, and never the twain shall meet it appears. I think we've both given each other a good amount to think about, though. Good discussion.:)

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by The Strangler
Ok, I see your points, but I can't agree with them. I still see the contradictions that you don't. Seaparating religious ideaology into separate "peace" and "war" philophies being one of them.

As for the Taliban's "good" points, I think you're REALLY stretching it there, even to the point of absurdity. As for whiping out drugs, wasn't Afghanistan's main agricultural product Poppy Plants which are used to make Opium? And what good is curing internal strife if it means the subjugation of your own people? The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

The more I look the more contradiction I see, even if you don't.

And I wasn't referring to a few pictures I saw on TV, but to a full length documentary made by an investigative journalist who went undercover for a year as an Afghany woman under a Burka (sp?). I'll try and see if I can find a link to it as it was quite disturbing.

But overall you have your view and I have mine, and never the twain shall meet it appears. I think we've both given each other a good amount to think about, though. Good discussion.:)

Yes, good discussion. Once you've brought the point out into the open, and people reject it, even though you've tried, then that decision is up to them. As it says in the Qur'an 'La Kum Di Na Kum Wa Liya Deen', To you your religion, To me mine.

May God guide us all.

[mickydaniels]

No wonder people don't like talking about religion.



But the Bible does say few are the ones finding the way of life...

[Professor S]

Me? I worship the PHANTOM... I33T!~!!!!!~!~!!@!11!!@!1

[The Duggler]

Man, I wish I saw this thread earlier... Anyways here's what I think about religion.

The human race is too stupid and unevolved to realize that religion is nothing more than fairy tales invented centuries ago. It's the source of most problems and alots of wars.

Here's one of my favorite quote. I think it's from a guy called George Carlin
"When it come to fooling people, religion takes the cake. Government and buisnesses stand in awe of the massive power of religion. Now, let me tell you why. Religion has people fooled that there is a man. Now this man, he lives in the sky, and nobody can see him, but he can see everything you do. In fact, he watches you to make sure you don't do 1 of the 10 really bad things. And if you do any of those things, then he's made a place for you. It's full of fire, burning, torture, rape, pain, anguish, and punishment, and you will go there forever if you break the rules.

.....But he loves you, and he needs your money."

[NYGiant]

Most are...but there 's somethin'....no way the world was just created

[mickydaniels]

Originally posted by Bond
Shadow Link, how does Islam address democracy, women's rights, and people's freedom to choose their own destiny?

And I have an odd feeling Shadow Link invited Almansurah to debate...


both interesting points.

I'm still unclear about democracy and women's rights but I believe from the verses shown, anyone presented with Islam and rejects it, they must be destroyed?

[TheGame]

Originally posted by mickydaniels
both interesting points.

I'm still unclear about democracy and women's rights but I believe from the verses shown, anyone presented with Islam and rejects it, they must be destroyed?

Basically that's how I understand it too... Either join or die...

Not only that, I heard (this may not be accurate, but it was said to me) that if you die (or risk your own life) in this war attempting to kill people who won't convert, you will go to heaven and get 72 virgins(or somthing like that). Which explains why my islamic uncle was acctually not disgusted with Osama's actions... it was like he was trying to see the positive in it.

If the above is true, thier belief can't co-exist with Christianity one is right, and one is wrong.

[Shadow_Link]

Hey Bond, I'll post my reply to your answer as soon as I find the time and energy to bother to respond to it :( (I will some day, just hold your breath).

As for what MickeyDaniel's said, where did you hear that from?

Muslims have to respect other people, no matter what religion they follow. We can only offer guidance, and the rest is up to the them. As for what TheGame said, well, that isn't entirely true.

In war, those defeated had 3 options. Join Islam, practice your religion, though having to pay tax, or leave the city. Killing didn't ever come into it unless it was a soldier in the midst of war (no women, kids or elderly people). But ofcourse, things are different nowadays, and in places such as Britain and America, people are allowed to freely practice their religion without oppression (well, most of the time, you do get alot of jerks).

Believe it or not, Jihad wasn't just announced on the spur of the moment, it was announced to free the oppressed people, who werent allowed to practice their own religions, or whenever the muslims were attaked themselves, and even in places where burials of baby girls were freely practiced.

Game, Muslims believe if you die in war for the cause of Islam (which isn't restricted to forcefully converting people to Islam), you will be granted entry into Jannah (paradise/heaven).

And anyone that is granted entry into heaven (whether it's through Jihad, etc) will gain the reward of many things, inlcuding Virgins.

We don't believe only Muslims will go to heaven, infact, only one sect out of 70 odd muslims will be granted entry into heaven, those who basically followed the Quran and Sunnah. Same applies for Jews and Christians before the Quran came about (one sect out of 70 something for both).

Which explains why my islamic uncle was acctually not disgusted with Osama's actions... it was like he was trying to see the positive in it.

I'm sorry, but any true Muslim would be totally against Osama's actions on 9/11. Islam does not condone the killing of innocents. Though understanding his reasoning isn't hard for some, you wont find any true muslims who would agree with the way he dealt with the situation.

If the above is true, thier belief can't co-exist with Christianity one is right, and one is wrong.

I don't know if you knew, but God considers those who followed Christianity before Islam came about (because the Bible, and the religion itself had been changed) Muslims, because the religion itself was really meant to be what Islam is today. Same goes with Judaism and Christianity. Jews (as they are known now) were really following the true religion, and were considered Muslims until Christianity came about (due to the changing of the Torah, etc).

So if in co-exist, you mean are different from eachother, I'd agree with you to some extent. Islam afterall, we believe, has existed ever since the first prophets came to be. There has only been one true religion, and new prophets and messengers have had to be appointed to reinforce the message of God (due to tampering with the books), to direct us to the right path. The miracle of today is the Quran, which hasn't been changed even once, not a single vowel/letter/word in a period of around 1400 years. That is why no prophet has had to be assigned by God since the last prophet.

Sorry I had to go off on a tangent, but I felt it was neccessary.

[Bond]

Originally posted by Shadow_Link
But ofcourse, things are different nowadays, and in places such as Britain and America, people are allowed to freely practice their religion without oppression (well, most of the time, you do get alot of jerks).

Ok, but this still has to do with my three basic questions. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a master on Islam. But I think those three questions are the basis of everything that you are saying.

Yes, in America and Britain, upon other countries, you are freely allowed to practice your religion, but...

Lets look at the mostly Muslim/Arab countries:

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, others.

I don't see people having the freedom to chose their own religion, and women having the same rights as men. Most women aren't even being educated in those countries. What I see are radical governments (Iran) that opress their own people.

So my point is this, it's hard to understand and/or believe what you are saying (at least for me) until you address those questions.

[TheGame]

I'm sorry, but any true Muslim would be totally against Osama's actions on 9/11. Islam does not condone the killing of innocents. Though understanding his reasoning isn't hard for some, you wont find any true muslims who would agree with the way he dealt with the situation.

Define a "true Muslim"... are the followers of Osama not Muslims?

Also, from what I heard... Osama can defend every action he has made with the words of the Qur'an.

But either way, thank you for educating me further on the subject.

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by Bond
Ok, but this still has to do with my three basic questions. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a master on Islam. But I think those three questions are the basis of everything that you are saying.

Yes, in America and Britain, upon other countries, you are freely allowed to practice your religion, but...

Lets look at the mostly Muslim/Arab countries:

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, others.

I don't see people having the freedom to chose their own religion, and women having the same rights as men. Most women aren't even being educated in those countries. What I see are radical governments (Iran) that opress their own people.

So my point is this, it's hard to understand and/or believe what you are saying (at least for me) until you address those questions.

I just want to quickly reply to this. You know what, I agree with everything you have said, again, to a certain extent. But there's one thing we have to remember, there's no such thing as an Ummah now, or a real Islamic state, that all died quite a while before the Ottoman empire reached its peak, or you maybe even before. Where ever you look in these so called Islamic states, there's always a problem. The problem in these countries isn't the religion, it's the people who run them, and also the people who live in them. Not all of them totally abide by the rules set in the Quran.

So really, these countires should not be used as an indication of what Islam should be, and how things should be run under it.

Define a "true Muslim"... are the followers of Osama not Muslims?

A true Muslim is one that strictly abides by EVERYTHING in the Quran, and the prophet's actions. He is not one that innovates in the religion, or picks and chooses what he wants to follow in the religion.

Also, from what I heard... Osama can defend every action he has made with the words of the Qur'an.

I'd like to know how. maybe if he went about his action a different way, they 'could' have been justified, but no, none of what happened on 9/11 can, except maybe the attack on the Pentagon (I'm not sure about that).

But either way, thank you for educating me further on the subject.

No problem, I'd like to help whenever I can.

[mickydaniels]

I don't know. So those that followed Judaism and Christianity were considered followers of Islam. So how come there are three different names of God? Allah, Yahweh, and Jehovah. How Did they stop pronouncing or what?

What happens to the other 69 and how come Christians in some Muslim countries have to practice their faith in secret?

[Shadow_Link]

Originally posted by mickydaniels
I don't know. So those that followed Judaism and Christianity were considered followers of Islam. So how come there are three different names of God? Allah, Yahweh, and Jehovah. How Did they stop pronouncing or what?

What happens to the other 69 and how come Christians in some Muslim countries have to practice their faith in secret?

Did you know that Allah just means God in Arabic? Christians in Saudi Arabia say Allah.

And I answered that last question in my previous post. If there was still an Ummah, which followed the Shariah, and real Imam's were appointed as leaders, then people of other religions wouldn't have to practice in secret.

What happens to the other 69... 69 what? Sects (it could be 70 or 71)? Well, hell is their abode, and also those who aren't people of the Holy books. (Just incase anyone was curious, not everyone will stay in Hell forever, and I think the Quran says there are 7 levels in Hell, the bottom reserved for those who commit shirk (associate anything with God, whether it be His powers, or comparing anything to His status), and I forgot the other types). I'm not entirely sure on the subject, so I'd prefer not to mention anymore before getting my information correct/verified.

[Ethan]

I didn't bother reading any of the new posts in this thread, so for all I know, you people could be discussing something entirely different. But anyway, I guess I'm an atheist (though that's hardly a religion). I like the idea of atheism because it doesn't require one to commit to anything at all (I guess that's the point, eh). That's perfect for me, because I could never fully give myself over to a religion or a god. I'm sure if I were a Christian I'd love God at first, but then I'd get tired of him later. One minute we're making sweet romance in a Pizza Hut bath room, the next He's asking me if those leather pants make his ass look big. It's not the pants, sweetheart.

[Professor S]

Ethan, I think you are more of an agnostic than an atheist. Atheists have adislike of religion and a sure belief that there is no God. If you aren't sure and don't feel comfortable commiting, thats agnosticism.