A Song of Ice and Fire Series (Books) *Spoilers*

[ZebraRampage]

This will be a thread to discuss the actual books in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire. There will be many spoilers, so if you haven't read the books and intend to, or if you're still reading the books, then it's probably best if you don't read anything that is said here.


So the books out so far are:

A Game of Thrones
A Clash of Kings
A Storm of Swords
A Feast for Crows
A Dance with Dragons

and the two that haven't been written yet are:

The Winds of Winter
A Dream of Spring


I read the first five books from November through April of this year, so they're all very fresh in my mind. I have been researching some good websites with history from the books, since it's hard to track, and here are a few that I've found.


http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Wiki

http://www.westeros.org/, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/ (forum)

http://towerofthehand.com/


I'm not sure where to start off, but maybe it would be best to ask questions first to clear up what has happened in the five books. Sometimes it's difficult to remember if you haven't read them in a while.

[Angrist]

I won't be joining this discussion because I've only read book 1-3.
Just 1 question: how did AFfC and ADwD compare to the first 3 books? I've heard that they're much slower and sometimes become a bit boring... true?

[DarkMaster]

I felt some unnecessary filler in both Book 4 and 5, and Book 5 ends on some ridiculous cliffhangers. Very unsatisfying I thought that certain events, which were built up throughout the entire book, didn't happen in the end... and now we wait 4-7 years for them. Bleh.

Book 4 is very jarring right after Book 3, with a bunch of characters absent (either now dead or left out for Book 5), and totally new locations. It does get better towards the end. With all the books, I will say that they start sloooooow, very fucking slow. I think that it makes the pay off better maybe, but I'm not sure. Sometimes I feel like shit rambles on.

Having said all that negativity.... they're still awesome. Book 3 being by FAR the best. Maybe the best book I've ever read? Can't think of any others. Going to re-read them over the summer on my nice new kindle.

[ZebraRampage]

Book 4 was very slow, and the worst of them all. Only half of the characters are there, as you've heard, and they're the ones I liked the least. Book 5 had the storylines of all the best characters, but it all comes together again in the end of that book. Book 3 was definitely the best though.

[Ginkasa]

The problems with AFfC and ADwD is that they happen after things have winded down a little bit. There really isn't that much going on; its all just set-up for the next two books. GRRM was initially going to skip over the time period covered by the two books, but felt he was relying too much on flashbacks to cover necessary information from what happened. So, he scrapped what he had written by that point and started to actually tell this period of time in his story.

Hopefully now that we've gotten that set-up done, the final two books will return to something a little closer to AGoT - ASoS. It should also, theoretically, be a shorter wait since GRRM has resolved the issues that plagued him as he wrote AFfC and ADwD.

[Angrist]

Sounds like it was a good decision to wait for all books to be done before reading 3&4. :)
Oh, did any of you use that chapter list that makes book 3 and 4 chronological again? GRRM promised he'd post it so you can turn those 2 books into 1 again. That's what I'm going to do, even though I haven't seen the list.

[ZebraRampage]

Sounds like it was a good decision to wait for all books to be done before reading 3&4. :)
Oh, did any of you use that chapter list that makes book 3 and 4 chronological again? GRRM promised he'd post it so you can turn those 2 books into 1 again. That's what I'm going to do, even though I haven't seen the list.

I think you mean books 4 and 5. And now I didn't see the chronological chapter list, but it really didn't bother me reading them separately. Once it all lines up in ADwD it doesn't matter anymore.


Angrist, I'm going to start laying out some future theories post ADwD, so if you don't want to read any spoilers then stop here. I'd rather not make this another "confidential" document. I'll make a separate post for my spoilers though.

My next post is going to be about where all of the characters were at the end of ADwD, but I need to do a little bit of research since I forget every detail.

[Angrist]

Angrist, I'm going to start laying out some future theories post ADwD, so if you don't want to read any spoilers then stop here. I'd rather not make this another "confidential" document.
No problem!

[ZebraRampage]

Okay so let me know if I'm missing any plot lines.


I'll start with Daenerys, she married Hizdahr zo Loraq who is the noble leader of Meereen. But on the day she opens the fighting pits she escapes on Drogon, and burns a lot of people as well. She ends up on the Dothraki Sea with her dragon and meets up with khalasar of Khal Jhaqo.

Quinten Martell dies while trying to take control of one of her other dragons to follow her cause, and Hizdahr is taken out of power by Barristan Selmy, who is now in control of everything in Meereen, including Rhaegal and Viserion.

Victarion Greyjoy has taken the Iron Fleet through the storm in Slaver's Bay and to the shores of Meereen where he plans to marry Daenerys, against Euron's wishes, who wanted Victarion to bring Daenerys back to be his Queen.



I'm going to get back to this later, I'm kind of occupied at the moment. Add any other plot lines if you feel like it.

[Ginkasa]

Sounds like it was a good decision to wait for all books to be done before reading 3&4. :)
Oh, did any of you use that chapter list that makes book 3 and 4 chronological again? GRRM promised he'd post it so you can turn those 2 books into 1 again. That's what I'm going to do, even though I haven't seen the list.



Here's a chronological list of the chapters in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. (http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons) Its not from GRRM so its not "official," I guess, but I don't think there has been an official list released by him. Also, a brief disclaimer, I haven't read the books according to this list (and probably won't), so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. Its there, though, if you want to read it that way instead of as published.

[ZebraRampage]

Here's a chronological list of the chapters in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. (http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons) Its not from GRRM so its not "official," I guess, but I don't think there has been an official list released by him. Also, a brief disclaimer, I haven't read the books according to this list (and probably won't), so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. Its there, though, if you want to read it that way instead of as published.

That is pretty cool, and it's probably pretty accurate. This is the kind of thing that people get anal about.


I wanted to have a summary for each character, but as I was researching it became difficult to touch every bit of information needed. My main goal is to talk about possible plot lines in the next two books. I've been reading in the forum for westeros.org, and some of the theories in there are very specific with cool twists.

The best theory so far is the idea that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are the true parents of Jon Snow. It is believed that she asked Ned Stark to promise to take care of Jon, but he also had to keep the secret that he was the son of those two. In order to do that he had to lie about Jon being his Bastard. And I bet that he never told Robert the truth, because Jon would be a threat to the throne, being half Targaryen.

[Ginkasa]

Oh yeah, that's a big one. I think a whole lot of people just assume it as truth now. There's a lot that point to it. Fortunately, GRRM doesn't seem to be the type to change a twist if people figure it out early (so, at least, if L+R=J turns out untrue we can fill confident it was always not true :)).

Sort of a companion theory is that Aerys the Mad King is Tyrion's true father. Basically, Aerys took certain liberties with Tywin's wife and became pregnant with Tyrion.

The end theory here is that Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys are the three heads of the dragon (being all three Targaryens) and all three represent Azhor Azhai reborn. Something like that. It'll be exciting seeing if its true.

[jnuyjuikikl]

I'm not sure where to start off, but maybe it would be best to ask questions first to clear up what has happened in the five books. Sometimes it's difficult to remember if you haven't read them in a while.
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[ZebraRampage]

I'm not sure where to start off, but maybe it would be best to ask questions first to clear up what has happened in the five books. Sometimes it's difficult to remember if you haven't read them in a while.
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F*ck you bot.

[Acebot44]

Reading A Storm of Swords, and man, shit's cray.

Having not read much past the "Rains of Castamere" episode at the Twins, I am equally bummed by the turn of event and yet anxious to see where the story goes. Also, that scene seems like a natural point choose as the finale for next season, but we'll see how I feel about that as I continue to read.

[Swan]

Man, I fucking hated in the fourth book, where Jon Snow discovers a mystic portal to an unknown place, and he goes through with Ghost, and they end up in 1970's New York.

[Acebot44]

^Which reminds me, finished the Dark Tower series not too long ago as well. Apparently the movie/hbo plan (http://www.darktowermovies.com/) is back in action!

[ZebraRampage]

^Which reminds me, finished the Dark Tower series not too long ago as well. Apparently the movie/hbo plan (http://www.darktowermovies.com/) is back in action!

That would be pretty awesome, and probably much easier to do since it has less plot lines and less characters. I'm currently on the 6th book, Song for Susannah, so I'm really close to the end, and really excited to get there.

Back to ASOFAI though.

How do you feel about A Storm of Swords so far? The part you spoke of really does make the most sense for the finale of the third season on HBO though, and I the end of the book should also be a good finale as well.


How many people have read the whole series as it is? I know Ginkasa, DarkMaster, and Angrist have.

[DarkMaster]

Season 3, episode 9 will be the Red Wedding, I have no doubt in my mind. The very last scene of the season, in episode 10, will be Joffrey getting got at his wedding, as a way to reconcile basically the most dramatic betrayal ever seen on TV. This seems pretty legit to me right now. Man I can't wait to see that shit go down on television.

I'm also extremely excited to see Ramsay Sno... er I mean Bolton! He's the best villain in the series so far, I think. He has the potential to seriously take the villainy in this show to the next level. People I know who haven't read the books are always telling me how much they hate Joffrey, and I'm like... maaaan you don't even know, there's another villain on the way.

I also can't wait to see the Brave Companions, I really hope they're as terrible and gruesome as they should be. I would love to see a leeching scene with Roose cause that shit was disturbing as hell. God damn season 3 is going to have some moments.

I'm currently re-reading through the series, am about 3/4 through Clash of Kings. Reading the books for the second time is even better, I think, knowing all the houses and having a better grasp of the lands and where everything this. Loving it.

[Acebot44]

After finally getting to that part (damnit DM haha), I think that the last scene may very well be Cersei accusing my main man Tyrion of the deed, and him getting carried away while Sansa disappears.

The frantic crowd, the unknown cause of death, and the desire to find out what happens next to sooooo many characters after such a scene would be a devilish cliff hanger...and sell A LOT of books...or give a Wiki of Ice and Fire plenty of traffic ;)

Oh and as for SoS, I love how every chapter towards the end seems finish with quite a bit of suspense. Too much attention is often given to whatever people are eating and wearing, at least to my like, but appart from that I am really enjoying it.

Not sure whether I'll read the next books in the "Chronological" mishmash mentioned earlier. It would be cumbersome carrying both books around...

[DarkMaster]

Actually now that I think about it more, given that the last two seasons have ended with a supernatural, expensive CGI scene, I'm pretty confident that the last scene of next season will be from the epilogue of the book... ya'll know what it is I speak of. Plus it would tie back into the red wedding. Yea.... shiiit.

[ZebraRampage]

I would love to see a leeching scene with Roose cause that shit was disturbing as hell. God damn season 3 is going to have some moments.

I don't think we'll see that scene. Wasn't Arya still at Harrenhall when it happened? It seems like the HBO series has sent Bolton up north already, instead of him residing in Harrenhall first. I might be wrong, but I thought he was there at the end of A Clash of Kings, or just at the begining of A Storm of Swords.

[DarkMaster]

Yea he's not at harrenhal in the show, but they could still do a leeching with him, at some place, wherever he ends up. He was there in book 2 and I think he's still there when Jamie comes by in book 3? something like that.

[Acebot44]

I've decided to read books 4 and 5 in the suggested chronological order posted earlier. AFFC via paperback, and DwD on my iPhone. Lessdoit!

[Angrist]

I've decided to read books 4 and 5 in the suggested chronological order posted earlier. AFFC via paperback, and DwD on my iPhone. Lessdoit!Awesome! Let us know how you liked it. Also, where did you find the list?
Oh and have you read the books before or not?

[Acebot44]

Here is the list, posted earlier by Ginkasa.

Here's a chronological list of the chapters in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. (http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons) Its not from GRRM so its not "official," I guess, but I don't think there has been an official list released by him. Also, a brief disclaimer, I haven't read the books according to this list (and probably won't), so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. Its there, though, if you want to read it that way instead of as published.


And I haven't read them before, but after letting my eyes drop down to the Amazon reviews on AFFC, I decided that I couldn't bear reading a whole book without knowing what happens to Jon, Tyrion and Dany. Also, having around 25% of AFFC dedicated to Cersei is NO BUENO.

[Ginkasa]

Despite what I said earlier about probably not following that list, I've changed my mind and probably will whenever I do another readthrough of the series, so I'm interested to see how you like it.

[ZebraRampage]

Despite what I said earlier about probably not following that list, I've changed my mind and probably will whenever I do another readthrough of the series, so I'm interested to see how you like it.

I'll be reading the series again when the The Winds of Winter is closer to coming out, so I'll probably read AFFC and ADwD in this fashion as well. You'll probably get a better opinion of how it is from people who have read it before.

[Acebot44]

I'm liking mixing up the chapters....I'm liking it alot.

[Angrist]

Nice. I downloaded that list and read the explanation. What kind of spoilers would book 5 have that are chronologically detailed before they happen in book 4? Unless it's maybe talk (in book 5) about a plot to kill somebody... who would eventually die (in book 4).

Oh I'm just wondering about the general concept, I don't want to hear the spoilers of course. ;)

[Ginkasa]

Nice. I downloaded that list and read the explanation. What kind of spoilers would book 5 have that are chronologically detailed before they happen in book 4? Unless it's maybe talk (in book 5) about a plot to kill somebody... who would eventually die (in book 4).

Oh I'm just wondering about the general concept, I don't want to hear the spoilers of course. ;)


Kind of like that, yeah. Someone somewhere has a secret plan to do something. This plan is revealed farther in the book in AFfC. ADwD actually follows a character carrying out that plan. If you read these things strictly chronologically, you're going to know about this plan from reading about a guy carrying out prior to reaching the "surprise reveal" chapter from AFfC. It wouldn't necessarily ruin either book or anything, but it is intended as a surprise in AFfC. I'm sure if the books were written as one, GRRM would have handled it differently.

[Angrist]

Ah ok, thanks. I think the posted list works around that, right? Delaying the spoiling chapters a bit. Sounds like a good solution to me. :)

[Ginkasa]

This is an alternate reading order for someone who hasn't read the series before. (http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a) That's the order that will maintain some of the surprises.

[Angrist]

Yeah, I've got that one, thanks. :)

[Acebot44]

So I finally finished reading the series. WOW.

I cannot imagine having read the two books separately. Intermixing the chapters worked wonderfully and kept the story interesting and flowing in between characters quite well. I read AFFC in paperback and ADWD on my iPhone, making switching between books a breeze and less cumbersome.

Anyone still interested in dishing about theories? The way Sam's story left off....

[ZebraRampage]

So I finally finished reading the series. WOW.

I cannot imagine having read the two books separately. Intermixing the chapters worked wonderfully and kept the story interesting and flowing in between characters quite well. I read AFFC in paperback and ADWD on my iPhone, making switching between books a breeze and less cumbersome.

Anyone still interested in dishing about theories? The way Sam's story left off....

I really have no clue what to expect from Sam. Especially with the characters he's run into there that seem to be plotting something. Also, they seem to have a way of knowing everything that is going on.