Masculinity in Video Games

[BreakABone]

This was an interesting article on game design's more to more hyper-masculine characters and worlds, and why they think the trend is sticking around.

http://postdesk.com/blog/masculinity-in-videogames

[Professor S]

Got about half-way down the page and said "I bet this was written by a woman..." I scrolled up and... yup.

[Vampyr]

I think she's picking the wrong examples. Max Payne looks like a good in good shape - there's nothing wrong with depicting that as an ideal, because it is the idea. People should strive to be in good shape vs being in bad shape. Same with the Nord from Skyrim.

If that's hurting peoples feelings and making characters less "real", then people need to get over it. Hell, there are plenty of people in real life more ripped than that Max/Nord.

As for the Warhammer 40k character she mentioned...them being that big is a large part of the narrative. They are genetically altered to be 10ft tall killing machines. It's a core part of the fiction.

[BreakABone]

I think she's picking the wrong examples. Max Payne looks like a good in good shape - there's nothing wrong with depicting that as an ideal, because it is the idea. People should strive to be in good shape vs being in bad shape. Same with the Nord from Skyrim.

If that's hurting peoples feelings and making characters less "real", then people need to get over it. Hell, there are plenty of people in real life more ripped than that Max/Nord.

As for the Warhammer 40k character she mentioned...them being that big is a large part of the narrative. They are genetically altered to be 10ft tall killing machines. It's a core part of the fiction.

Well the part of Max Payne isn't that he is a bad example, but he went from like an average looking guy to.. well that...

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/maxpayne2_120403_18_640w.jpg

[Typhoid]

Her point is immediately invalid due to the fact she's oblivious to the hyper-feminine male characters of jrpg's, and how they have - if anything, only gotten more feminine as time gone on - if not completely transformed into women with some male tendencies instead (I suppose that's only specific to FF).

What she doesn't realize (I guess) is that hyper-male characters in a war-centred world is the male equivalent of a princess who gets a happy ending. The Cole Train is our Cinderella.

[KillerGremlin]

Was this article poorly written and very incoherent or am I crazy?

Also, this author is clearly a bitchy cunt with no sense of direction. There is no clear thesis, she is a rambling loon, and her links are to Amazon. Thanks for including a hyperlink to the Amazon sales page of Max Payne, you plebeian.

Sorry...this article is worse than feminism pop trash. And a lot of feminism trash is predicated on fancy linguistics and incoherent ramblings that could be summed up in a single paragraph using common language. This article could be summed up in one sentence, but is one long winded fart. Err...I mean queef.

Not only do I think she has no point, but she writes like a bitch. Double whammy.

You could make a legit argument that gaming portrays a falsely masculine archetype...and I bet there are great articles out there on the topic. If she has a journal degree...she should consider a career change.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Just the fact that she has enough free time to respond to every single comment on the post is alarming.

Also to look at her other blog entries:

Playing without playfulness? The problems with tabletop gaming culture

Are indie games failing to live up to their potential? How much originality is there in the indie games scene?

This is what’s wrong with fictional gender-neutral societies in videogames.


HURRRRRR

Her own description of herself in her very first article:

Mariel Hurd is a console-shunning queer feminist with too much time on her hands. She likes to fill it with wargaming, RPGs and forming unpopular opinions.


Sure sounds like someone is that awkward person at the party no one talks to because her opinions are retarded.


I say there needs to be an influx of dudebro games.

PS not knocking on gears of war in your article about dudebro gaming being badz... Girl you must be trollan.

[Professor S]

The main problem I see with her article is that the thesis has promise, but her supporting arguments are absurd. Yes, we have seen games recently move from a fat plumber, to a grizzled detective, to hyper-muscled killing machines... but her main complaint is that she finds lots of muscles unattractive.

You could make the case that the popularity of video games has made male youth much more sedentary and apathetic to the real world, so the young male lives out their masculine hegemonic fantasies through digital entertainment instead of sports, etc. Also, the increasing gender-neutrality of society could be causing a subconscious movement back to more traditionally masculine ideals. But then again, how do you explain Angry Birds? Deep inside, do we all strive to commit swineicide via corpulent chickens?

The truth is hegemonic masculinity in fiction, regardless of medium, has existed for not a few decades, but THOUSANDS OF YEARS. The original angsty Max Payne was a glitch in the Matrix, not an example of it. Remember Arnold Swarzenegger in the 80's? John Wayne before him? Horatio Hornblower? King Arthur? FUCKING HERCULES, SON OF ZEUS? All of these are exaggerated depictions of masculine fantasy, and all predate the modern trend back towards masculine fiction.

Then again, she would have to pick up a book or pay attention in 6th grade English to understand any of this.

[Combine 017]

hegemonic masculinity

Wtf does that mean?

[Professor S]

"In gender studies, hegemonic masculinity refers to the belief in the existence of a culturally normative ideal of male behavior. Hegemonic masculinity posits that society strongly encourages men to embody this kind of masculinity. Hegemonic masculinity is said to be marked by a tendency for the male to dominate other males and subordinate females."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity

EXAMPLE: From one of my favorite movies, The Quiet Man.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IftG_SBjB6I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Combine 017]

"In gender studies, hegemonic masculinity refers to the belief in the existence of a culturally normative ideal of male behavior. Hegemonic masculinity posits that society strongly encourages men to embody this kind of masculinity. Hegemonic masculinity is said to be marked by a tendency for the male to dominate other males and subordinate females."

So like, an Alpha Male or something?

[Professor S]

So like, an Alpha Male or something?

More or less.

[Vampyr]

Well the part of Max Payne isn't that he is a bad example, but he went from like an average looking guy to.. well that...

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/maxpayne2_120403_18_640w.jpg

Was he average then, or did they lack the technology to make him look anything but average and boxy?

[KillerGremlin]

So like, an Alpha Male or something?

No. More like a stereotype. Like...all males fart and itch their balls, and think women should be in the kitchen.

Hegemony is a legitimate construct/theory but it doesn't hold a ton of weight per se because like much of sociology and gender studies...it is based on intangibles. Kind of like Freudian Psychology which was discredited eons ago for the more popular biological or cognitive approach.


I think Prof S touched on the main point...which is that male games are anything but hegemonic. Most male gamers are still perceived as "live in mom's basement" types. You do have an anomaly of college frat boys playing Madden and Gears of War...but that has to be a minority compared to the plague of males playing World of Warcraft, Pokemon, Nintendo Wii, Halo, etc. You know, the string bean guys with broken glasses that are taped back together. Who have lots of acne and their voice cracks when they talk. Gaming is still stereotypically played by male losers, and you could have a much more fruitful discussion on that point instead of this fake article.

Here is my beef and my guess as to why this article is such an incoherent mess. This article was written like a Gender Studies piece and not a gaming piece. There are burgeoning and cutting-edge areas in communications and sociology dealing with the impact of gaming and technology on people. In order to tackle this subject you need to be educated on it, and clearly this author is not.

Masculinity isn't just how you dress, how big your muscles are, etc. It's more about your actions...so even in a game as vapid as Gears of War; I don't buy any argument or social commentary on masculinity. Whereas Mario's premise is that Peach is in the kitchen baking a cake and Bowser kidnaps her....so the only male in the Mushroom Kingdom needs to run through levels filled with phallic objects and save the princess. Except I'm smart enough to believe that Mario is not misogynistic.

But the man saving woman theme pops up in a lot of games.

Anyway....I still think this lady is way out of her element. Just because she has a Gender Study's degree and happens to play video games does not qualify her to say anything of gaming itself. This is a poorly written, trite article.

[Vampyr]

Her point is immediately invalid due to the fact she's oblivious to the hyper-feminine male characters of jrpg's, and how they have - if anything, only gotten more feminine as time gone on - if not completely transformed into women with some male tendencies instead (I suppose that's only specific to FF).

What she doesn't realize (I guess) is that hyper-male characters in a war-centred world is the male equivalent of a princess who gets a happy ending. The Cole Train is our Cinderella.

I think that the dealio here is that big boobs aren't what makes a character feminine, but I think that's what you mean when you say characters have gotten "more feminine."

Another big cop out when designing female characters that game designers tend to take is to, as you said, just load them up on stereotypically male characteristics. Want a strong female character? Load them up on tattoos and make them rude to everyone, that should do it (case in point: Jack from Mass Effect). They failed so spectacularly with that character. The person who designed her actually said she was supposed to be a strong female character...it's madness. They managed to do everything wrong with her - totally male characteristics (down to the name), plus a sex addiction and skimpy clothing. Jesus Christ.

Games need "strong" female characters that that aren't strong because they represent male stereotypes. A good example is actually Anya, from Gears of War. Her character is almost motherly towards others, especially Marcus, but she's also a fierce fighter and intelligent.

Motherhood is actually a theme that could really be explored in video games that could actually add a ton to female characters. And I don't mean that every female should have a child - exploring the negative of motherhood (women who don't want children, and how they interact with them) is another possibility. As of now it's not really commented on either way in video games.

[KillerGremlin]

Here is my word-by-word deconstruction...feel free to disagree.

Older games prove we’re brighter than that. Uber-macho characters have always existed – series like Quake and Doom are an integral part of games history – but the art and writing style didn’t always dominate the big titles.

I always thought "Quake" and "Doom" were nameless and faceless. I'm not sure how this is hyper-masculine or hegemonic...Doom was practically a horror genre piece when it came out. These games are historically renown for their _LACK_ of story. Chug and plug; you shoot things. Quake kind of expanded on Doom...and you had games like Turok or Goldeneye. But it wasn't until Half-Life that we really went beyond the faceless hero. And Half-Life is not hegemonic.

For all we know the "Doom guy" was a "Doom girl." I remember the Doom days being especially turbulent with issues of violence...there was the Columbine shooting and people were up in arms about violent video games. I don't think Doom is a reflection on masculinity, even in hindsight. Doom 3 is pure horror genre. To me...Doom is cold, sterile, and sexless. I haven't seen Doom making anyone's dick throb, and the game itself is pretty nerd-culture. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Halo: Combat Evolved’s dialogue co-existed with No One Lives Forever, and Serious Sam’s jaw line was contrasted by Morrowind’s everyday proportions, but over recent years the testosterone levels have been creeping up.

This bitch hasn't played Halo...because last I checked Halo is about Master Chief working with Cortona (a hot, smart, sexy FEMALE) to save the universe. Also, despite his big muscles, Master Chief seems pretty levelheaded and a cool guy.

Serious Sam is a fucking parody. I mean it's an amazing, 10/10 game in terms of gameplay too. But it's like the Beavis and Butthead of First Person Shooters. If anything...Serious Sam is poking fun at hyper-masculine. Comedy is always excluded from being racist...or Richard Pryor suddenly isn't funny.

http://postdesk.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/MorrObliviSkyrim.png

From blocky to realistic looking...that guy doesn't look all that bulky.

http://postdesk.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/marneus.calgar.png

Why should I picture this guy naked? I'm picturing him kicking ass...which is the intent. If I want to see naked robots I'll go watch anime, but honestly I'm not into that shit.

The art style isn’t to my tastes, but that doesn’t necessarily make it bad. Unfortunately it often is, but where it gets truly painful is the writing. Action clichés get substituted for dialogue and ‘he’s a stoic sarcastic cynic’ is used to patch over the gap where a developed character should be. It’s an excuse for writers to churn out stale one-liners, and dramatic raaaaaage is easier to animate than genuine grief.

A premise without any support or examples! That is a heinous crime in writing.

Settings don’t get off lightly either. There are entire game worlds populated by grunting proto-humans1 who’ve never seen colourful clothing and would probably pronounce it gay if they did. Whether a pre-existing universe fits the new style is irrelevant; it can (and often will) simply be retconned or ignored, with varying degrees of brutality. Hence Max Payne inexplicably becoming a mercenary in Brazil, or the mythology-based political intrigue of Morrowind being replaced by the gritty dragon-fighting of Skyrim. (Which is great if you happen to like those flavours of grimdark, but the destruction of old properties to produce them seems a terrible waste of a world.)

I found this to be unclear and incoherent as well.

One reason might be that it’s a power fantasy seen in everything from comics to rock bands. Being unstoppably badass is an idea we can all get behind, and popular culture often links that with heavy musculature. Unless it’s a female character, in which case physical strength is symbolised by wedge heels.

Again...not true at all, and there are no examples. If anything, there are A LOT of females in gaming, which is predominately and stereotypically a male dominated genre. Lara Croft, Samus, Cortona, Kate Archer, Zelda, the women of Left 4 Dead. And there are a crop of KICK ASS female characters in the "video game" movie crowd....how about Milla Jovovich as Alice, or Angelina Jolie as Lara Croft, or Uma Thurman as Beatrix Kiddo, or Linda Hamilton as Sarah Connor...

Not to say that liking macho characters makes you thick, but developers often aim for what they consider to be the lowest common denominator and ‘guns, gore and none of that writing shit’ about sums it up. I don’t think gamers are sissyphobic dickwads who need to be placated with action film clichés, but how many companies do?

Diminished writing is a critique of a handful of popular, mainstream titles. Whereas many titles...ironically often on the PC or Nintendo platform...feature rich worlds with tons of text. Have you people actually read through all the logs in Metroid Prime? There is a fucking book's worth of material to read through in that game.

When you spend day after day looking at these images your sense of reality quietly shifts until Solid Snake becomes your pattern for a standard male body type, so when you want to make a character look strong and imposing you make him a little bigger than the ‘norm’. Over time, the baseline standards creep up and up like an arms race; each competitor inflating his biceps a little more each round.

I don't see any truth in this...and by truth I mean science. This is an intangible generalization, and carries the weight of a fart with all the nasty smells of something from the sociology cellar. Support this shit with facts, or shut the fuck up.

As for the writing? I don’t know. I’m hoping you can tell me, friendly readers, because my best guess is a mixture of a common enough power-fantasy that developers can coast by on it, how easy it is to write, and an inexplicable worship of brainless power tops.

Halo has a book...you can supplement many of the war games by actually reading about the wars. Call of Duty's roots are World War II and many of the game's fight if not all of them are actual battles. Maybe the current generation has a handful of titles that feature big explosions over big writing, but many games are also rich with pop culture. Look at Grand Theft Auto. There are more cultural references in Grand Theft Auto than in 10 seasons worth of the Simpsons. That game is rich with movie culture, pop culture, music culture, and inside jokes that would make even Ken Jennings blush.

[KillerGremlin]

I think that the dealio here is that big boobs aren't what makes a character feminine, but I think that's what you mean when you say characters have gotten "more feminine."

Another big cop out when designing female characters that game designers tend to take is to, as you said, just load them up on stereotypically male characteristics. Want a strong female character? Load them up on tattoos and make them rude to everyone, that should do it (case in point: Jack from Mass Effect). They failed so spectacularly with that character. The person who designed her actually said she was supposed to be a strong female character...it's madness. They managed to do everything wrong with her - totally male characteristics (down to the name), plus a sex addiction and skimpy clothing. Jesus Christ.

Games need "strong" female characters that that aren't strong because they represent male stereotypes. A good example is actually Anya, from Gears of War. Her character is almost motherly towards others, especially Marcus, but she's also a fierce fighter and intelligent.

Motherhood is actually a theme that could really be explored in video games that could actually add a ton to female characters. And I don't mean that every female should have a child - exploring the negative of motherhood (women who don't want children, and how they interact with them) is another possibility. As of now it's not really commented on either way in video games.

Feminism hates motherhood. Good luck. Being motherly is fitting in the hegemonic male culture. Why should a female be motherly when she can fight it up or go all slutty. I love feminism...it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Not all feminism is horribly written. But 98% of pop feminism is trash. A lot of it masquerades behind constructs that don't exist in real life. A lot of it hides behind fancy words and lengthy books that would take a scholar to deconstruct.

Most scholars are off doing things worthwhile though...like becoming lawyers or physicists or doctors. It's a great irony.


EDIT: And as a huge Halo fan...HUGE HUGE Halo fan...Cortona saves Master Chief a few times, and he rescues her. I love Cortona, and she is an awesome, strong, female lead. Is she motherly? Maybe...I dunno. To me she is kind of sexy and like a companion.

[Vampyr]

Well, that's why I said characters who don't want to be mothers would also be interesting.

But yeah, maybe the reason game stories haven't gone there is because they would inevitably screw it up.

[KillerGremlin]

Assuming that video games are on par with books or cinema...and they are with an ever expanding library...

You are going to have some pop trash, and some good stuff. We can accept that there is a "strong man" mytho....as per the Greek stories Prof S mentioned, or movies like Conan the Barbarian, 300, Commando, and Die Hard. But maybe people just like watching stuff blown up. I get the homoerotic nature of the strong man mytho...but I'm not empathizing or envying these guys. I don't want to look like a beefcake.

If anything, the emergence of these "strong men" in video games is a retort to all the guys in skinny jeans. Big beefcake guys are on the decline these days, with a curving upward group of metro-sexual males.

This issue is much more complicated than that badly written article, and video games as a medium deserve some love. I enjoy the occasional manly man movie where shit is being blown up and they are cranking out the cheesy as fuck one liners. If you can't appreciate what Gears of War is....polished testosterone and blowing shit up...then how can you appreciate something like No One Lives Forever or Metroid Prime?

[Typhoid]

Wait, it's not like male leads in games in the past weren't war-mongering muscle-having gun-toting women-fucking machines.

It's just that when games first started coming out that the graphics were dirt-poor, so you couldn't have definition. Everyone was a block regardless of how beefy they were supposed to be. So when going back, you have to rely on the glorious box art to portray your characters, and let the imagination turn the blocks into those muslce-laden destruction-Gods who love to fight.

I present to you Sean's first annual nothing's-really-changed awards.

http://cdn2.hark.com/images/000/000/911/911/original.gif

http://arcade.svatopluk.com/konami/contra/contra_01.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/BattleToadsDoubleDragon.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/BionicCommando.jpg/417px-BionicCommando.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Captain_Planet_and_the_Planeteers_Coverart.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Ddragon_chirashi.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/G.I._Joe_NES_Cover.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/Guerrilla_War_Cover.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/Gunsmoke_game_flyer.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/Baldbull.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/R_NES.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/River_City_Ransom-front.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Wolverine_Cover.jpg

However, like I said, it's not like certain companies haven't made their leads more feminine as the years have gone on. Even just starting at FF7, you have Cloud, a cocky masculine male lead in the army. Then a slender egotistical college kid. Then you have a monkey-boy with a tail. Then whatever the fuck Tidus was. Then you have Vaan and Penelo - but considering the main character of the story is technically Asch, it's already a girl. Then you get Lightning, which has seemingly come full-circle where they just removed Clouds dick and gave him tits.

I'm not saying that's a problem, or bugs me. I was just bringing it up.

[Angrist]

So what about Half Life 2's Alexis, does she count as a strong female? I really loved the game because of her. She was so realistic (graphics and emotions).

[Bond]

I stopped reading after the third grammatical error, but this tells me everything I need to know:

Mariel Hurd is a console-shunning queer feminist with too much time on her hands. She likes to fill it with wargaming, RPGs and forming unpopular opinions.

[Blix]

EDIT: And as a huge Halo fan...HUGE HUGE Halo fan...Cortona saves Master Chief a few times, and he rescues her. I love Cortona, and she is an awesome, strong, female lead. Is she motherly? Maybe...I dunno. To me she is kind of sexy and like a companion.

As a huge halo fan you should know it is Cortana, not Cortona. :lolz:

Edit: Don't take it personally, it's just you made the same mistake many times and it got to me. XD

[KillerGremlin]

As a huge halo fan you should know it is Cortana, not Cortona. :lolz:

Edit: Don't take it personally, it's just you made the same mistake many times and it got to me. XD

lol, correction definitely noted. I still stand by my opinions on the issue though. Cortana is hot...not motherly.

[TheSlyMoogle]

No. More like a stereotype. Like...all males fart and itch their balls, and think women should be in the kitchen.

Well all males do fart, and I've yet to meet a guy who doesn't scratch his balls occasionally. Those motherfuckers do itch.


ALPHA AS FUCK!!!

[Teuthida]

However, like I said, it's not like certain companies haven't made their leads more feminine as the years have gone on. Even just starting at FF7, you have Cloud, a cocky masculine male lead in the army. Then a slender egotistical college kid. Then you have a monkey-boy with a tail. Then whatever the fuck Tidus was. Then you have Vaan and Penelo - but considering the main character of the story is technically Asch, it's already a girl. Then you get Lightning, which has seemingly come full-circle where they just removed Clouds dick and gave him tits.

Yup, it's the exact opposite in Japan. I've seen articles about how there are no longer any strong male leads in most of their recent entertainment.

Probably very different for video games where you need a lot of approval for the final design of a character (I'm guessing) but in terms of comics, at least for me, big muscly guys are just more fun to draw.

And I prefer my video game characters to be cute, colorful and barely humanoid. The only game of this generation I've played is Portal 2. I would say that's a strong female character.

The body types just seem to make sense for the type of game they're in. Going by the character roundup Earl did at NOTR (http://nerdsontherocks.com/masculinity-gaming-2011-edition), the only thing these male characters are guilty of is being boring. Looks like could swap in most of them for any of the games. Sev is basically Drake with a beard and baggier pants. And what is Cole MacGrath's deal? Other than the scar, he's a normal dude. If I had to guess based on the picture...he's a forest ranger? Scar's from a raccoon but he tells everyone it was a bear.

[Professor S]

FYI - I have engaged the bitch in debate. Fun!

[Combine 017]

The one who wrote the article?
Do post.

[Professor S]

It's in the comments section of the blog.

[Typhoid]

Would you care to post the transcript in here, simply so those interested in potential hilarity can read along, without having to click any extra pesky links. :ohreilly:

[Dylflon]

6:23 PM, JANUARY 4, 2012
The main problem I see with this article is that the thesis has promise, but her supporting arguments are absurd. Yes, we have seen games recently move from a fat plumber, to a grizzled detective, to hyper-muscled killing machines… but the main complaint is that the author finds lots of muscles unattractive.
You could make the case that the popularity of video games has made male youth much more sedentary and apathetic to the real world, so the young male lives out their masculine hegemonic fantasies through digital entertainment instead of sports, etc. Also, the increasing gender-neutrality of society could be causing a subconscious movement back to more traditionally masculine ideals. But then again, how do you explain Angry Birds? Deep inside, do we all strive to commit swineicide via corpulent chickens?
The truth is hegemonic masculinity in fiction, regardless of medium, has existed for not a few decades, but THOUSANDS OF YEARS. The original angsty Max Payne was a glitch in the Matrix, not an example of it. Remember Arnold Swarzenegger in the 80′s? John Wayne before him? Horatio Hornblower? King Arthur? FUCKING HERCULES, SON OF ZEUS? Even Mario murdered thousands of enemies, bashed stone to cinders WITH HIS HEAD, and saved the poor helpless damsel is distress. All of these are exaggerated depictions of masculine fantasy, and all predate the modern trend back towards masculine fiction.
Reply
by Professor S

6:32 PM, JANUARY 4, 2012
Oh, and let’s not forget the giant monkey wrench that was 9/11. Who knows how that affected the psyche of male youth. They’ll be examining that impact for years.
by Professor S

12:59 PM, JANUARY 6, 2012
I fully agree that finding heavy musculature unattractive is not a sound basis for criticism, so it’s fortunate I never made that argument. I would, however, be very interested in reading your response to my actual theories.
Of course hypermasculine characters existed in fiction long before video games, which is why it is again lucky I never said otherwise. If Max Payne is a ‘glitch in the matrix’, then so were the hard-boiled detective novels/films he parodies. Arnold Swarzenegger’s contemporaries include Dave Lister, Ghostbusters and Indiana Jones – none of whom fit the hypermasculine games designs/characters I was criticising. John Wayne? Michael Caine in the Italian Job.
After those two actors you are conflating hypermasculine characters with heroic ones. Horatio Hornblower would be no more at home in a modern action game than Jonathan Harker.
You’re also connecting violence with masculinity. If Mario becomes an ‘exaggerated depiction of masculine fantasy’ because he kills things, then Chell’s wanton turret-destruction makes her a towering pillar of masculinity.
My issue is not, and never has been, with masculine characters. It’s with the extremely narrow range of hypermasculine character types and designs currently dominating mainstream games.
(Oh, and ‘FUCKING HERCULES, SON OF ZEUS?’. Fucking Hermes, also son of Zeus.)
by Mariel Hurd

11:04 PM, JANUARY 8, 2012
Mariel, if I didn’t respond to your thesis then it wasn’t presented as intended, either that or you don’t really understand what masculinity is or your definition is extraordinarily narrow. You thesis was about “exaggerated” or “hyper”(your words) masculinity and to think this simply involves bulging biceps is myopic at best and ignorant at worst.
Also, your argument presented these concepts as something new or modern, and I pointed out that they are anything but new. Whether Hermes existed with Hercules is irrelevant to the discussion. The existence of the Hercules myth is the only evidence required, and I could point out myth and folklore from any number of cultures that are similar from Paul Bunyan to Achilles to Samson to Gilgamesh.
Your entire article reads of someone who had a notion while playing a game and decided to write it based on your version of common knowledge. I just hope no one takes your opinions on this topic seriously.
by Kurt

10:56 AM, JANUARY 9, 2012
Except that, as I pointed out in my last response to you, my sole issue isn’t with ‘bulging biceps’ (although poor visual design is important to me). In fact, I addressed writing style multiple times but you’re consistently ignoring that. I’m sure levelling at your strawman is great exercise, but it isn’t much of an argument.
Could you please point me to where I presented this character type as purely modern? I said that it is becoming increasingly ubiquitous in video gaming, not that it has never existed in anything, ever. Subsequently, the fact that Hercules exists as a mythological figure is tangential to the point of irrelevance. Plus, you are once again conflating ‘heroic’ with ‘hypermasculine’.
Your opinions would be more interesting if you stopped frantically shifting the goalposts, and behaved more like the academic you originally titled yourself as.
by Mariel Hurd

Am I the only person who thinks these two are perfect for each other?

Her arguments seem very similar to the Professor S arguments we have grown to know so well over the years.

[Combine 017]

They are both masterdebaters.

[Angrist]

Combine, do you watch the Day[9] Daily?

[Combine 017]

Whats a Day[9] Daily?

[Professor S]

I think your ability to play semantics isn’t quite as graceful as you think it is. “Becoming increasing ubiquitous” implies modernity, because they are increasing in modern times. As for confusing “heroic” and “hypermasculine”, every legendary myth I posted was both heroic and hypermasuline. Paul Bunyan was a giant to chopped down entire forests with a single blow from his axe. Doesn’t get much more hypermasculine than that, unless he picked up a few ladies at the bar afterwards. Also, traditionally heroic figures ARE hypermasculine simply because female heroic figures were few and far between (patriarchal, but true). The idea of male masculinity is built on these tales of heroism.

I’m not saying that the grunting ogre doesn’t exist in gaming, but I think you are taking few notable modern examples and trying to create a ubiquity that simply doesn’t exist while ignoring the history of the grunting ogre in masculine media content. After all, Conan the Barbarian was invented in the first half of the century.

Is it a stereotype or even a genre? Perhaps, but the explosion of social and casual gaming as well as modern intelligent heroes like Drake and even Master Chief prevent the ubiquity you claim. Let’s not even mention the Japanese RPG androgynous ladyboys or Link who is still very popular and runs around in tights and a pixie cap.

FUN!

[Typhoid]

This chick was probably picked on in highschool by jocks, is a lesbian - and was raised by a single mother who had a father leave her. She probably is also super into feminism. So fuck her, right. Figuratively, though. Nobody would ever actually fuck a feminist. I don't think feminists actually want to get fucked, anyways. Feminists probably just want a nice pair of flannel pants and a 11 inch dildo. Because they don't need a man's penis. Unless that man put his penis into a cast so they can then use that cast of a man's penis to thrust into another feminists vagina. "Down with masculinity! Hey, hand me that massive black dildo."

Anyways, I love Republican-Republican debates.
It's like an argument about semantics which slowly turns into an argument about what semantics are, and finally what semantics were said in the first place. :lol:


Feminism is probably how ugly chicks rationalize why no attractive guy with muscles wants to fuck them.

/tangent over

[Professor S]

Anyways, I love Republican-Republican debates.

You think this crazy bitch is a Republican? Feminists don't make up a very large part of the party... :lol:

[Typhoid]

No, I don't actually think that crazy lesbian feminist bitch is actually going to be Republican.
I just meant that that crazy lesbian feminist bitch argues like a Republican. :lol:

[Angrist]

Whats a Day[9] Daily?

www.blip.tv/day9 (I think.) Basically he does a show to help players become better Starcraft II gamers. He's a really funny and nice guy.
I thought I recognized something from his show, but I was wrong.