Wrestling = Nascar

[KillerGremlin]

The reason I watch wrestling is the same reason I watch Nascar. I understand that both Nascar and Wrestling are physically demanding sports. I know that both Nascar and Wrestling are among the most dangerous sports.

But at the end of the day:

I watch Nascar for the 16 car pile ups, explosions, and the firey crashes. I watch wrestling for the non-scripted arm breaks, concussions, and firey crashes.

[Professor S]

I think you represent a significant portion of NASCAR fans, but I enjoy certain races for the intense strategy. I pretty much watch one race: Taladega. It's a restrictor plate race and depends on teams fo two to help each other around the track. This last year's race was insanely entertaining from start to finish, with teams jockeying back and forth for position. It's the best example of how good NASCAR can be depending on the rules and track raced.

Then fast forward to any race at Pocono, and yeah, I'd wait for a crash too (if I watched it). Horrifically boring.

[Vampyr]

Football is the only sport I like to watch.

Baseball, golf, and racing are just boring.

Hockey would be fun, but I can't see the puck.

I can't watch soccer because the fake injuries annoy me too much.

The entire game of basketball is meaningless other than the last few minutes.

Football just has everything. Intense strategy AND tons of collisions, without one excluding the other. Big leads can turn into a loss in just a few minutes time.

[Fox 6]

Football is the only sport I like to watch.

Baseball, golf, and racing are just boring.

Hockey would be fun, but I can't see the puck.

I can't watch soccer because the fake injuries annoy me too much.

The entire game of basketball is meaningless other than the last few minutes.

Football just has everything. Intense strategy AND tons of collisions, without one excluding the other. Big leads can turn into a loss in just a few minutes time.

Rugby world cup is on right now. Give it a try. +rep to anyone who can find the pun.

Also I prefer F1 over NASCAR but really if you want to watch cars drive, camp out on the highway.

[Seth]

haha can`t see the puck!

If I'm going to watch a stop play strategy sport, its gotta be baseball. Can be boring, but the strategy is more interesting and allows the athletes to demonstrate highest level skill without the constant hesitation that bone crushing tends to induce. I'd rather watch rugby than football.
The entire game of basketball is kind of the point. Highlight reels testify. I'd argue that the stop play of basketball is less annoying than football's running clock.
I totally agree about the soccer injury bullshit. It's an amazing sport, albeit a bit slow, but the constant call pleading is morally abhorrent to me. Are kids, watching soccer, supposed to view dishonest diving as something admirable by their top tier athlete role models? disssgusting

Hockey ftw.

[Vampyr]

I tried to get into hockey a while back, but I just got frustrated because I could never tell what was going on.

The thing about basketball is that it is lauded as a "fast paced sport"...when, as you mentioned, the play gets stopped as soon as things are getting good, for the sole purpose of breaking the other teams pace. And there are some cool plays that occur throughout a game, but they just feel so meaningless when the other team turns around and hits a lay up and reties the game. It's more of a test of endurance and who can do the best during those last few minutes, which is just kind of boring to watch for me.

[KillerGremlin]

Obviously my post was tongue-in-cheek, but I like where this discussion is going regarding boring sports. I actually find the amount of inbred rednecks who love Nascar to be surprising. I don't know a whole lot about Nascar, but the premise of having these giant 400-lap races where you need to meet a certain lap time EVERY LAP, while conserving fuel, and driving insanely fast, is just crazy to me. Nascar is almost analogous to the precision required by a large Symphony performing a lengthy symphony...or some other precision art. But then I played classical music for many years. Nascar still bores me to tears.

I sort of respect Nascar, but I've also read way too many articles saying that all the restrictions and regulations have neutered the sport. So F1 is where it is at.

I actually have recently got into golf. It's not the most exciting sport to watch, but it's not terrible. I'm hoping to maybe take some driving lessons in the future. I like basketball, but in the past 10 years the NBA has really become an offense-only league. What the hell happened to the defense? I played basketball back in the day so I guess that helps me enjoy watching the game, but it seems like college basketball is where the balance is. Football is my preferred sport.

I can't stand baseball anymore. I think it is really watered down, and it's the same teams in the playoffs every year. I still love going to the ballpark and getting a beer and a hotdog. You cannot top that sport/American experience.

Soccer is okay but the fake injuries and the slow progression makes it boring to watch on TV. Maybe IRL with crazy fans, topless girls in paint, and lots and lots of beer.

I'm going to try to get into hockey. I keep saying I will. For the record, I think hockey is more exciting than soccer. I mean players don't fake injuries...they beat the shit out of each other.

Other sports I don't get: Billards, Bowling, Horse Racing (the Amish Nascar with midgets; how did this become such a high class sport with so much betting?), about 90% of sports at the Olympics.

I think we need to bring back the naked Olympics. Otherwise it's just an annoyance that cuts into my regular TV viewing.

[Professor S]

Soccer is mind-numbingly boring unless it goes to a shoot-out, and not fan friendly at all. The way international soccer keeps time is absurd. Who cares how long the game has gone on? I want to know how much time is left for someone to break the 0-0 tie!!

I haven't seen MLS games, and I hear that is more exciting with a smaller pitch and more fan-friendly rules. Perhaps I'll give that a try.

[Typhoid]

Soccer is mind-numbingly boring unless it goes to a shoot-out, and not fan friendly at all. The way international soccer keeps time is absurd. Who cares how long the game has gone on? I want to know how much time is left for someone to break the 0-0 tie!!

I haven't seen MLS games, and I hear that is more exciting with a smaller pitch and more fan-friendly rules. Perhaps I'll give that a try.

That's a pretty closed-minded view. The 0-0 tie thing. As if there aren't low-scoring games in other sports, and as if offense is the only credible way to judge a sport. Why can't solid defence be exciting? Why does a game need a combination of 40 points in it to be exciting?

Hell, some of the best hockey games I watched as a kid ended in a 0-0 tie. Some of the most intense baseball games I've seen have been low-scoring games where only a few runs are scored. Even some of the best football games I've witnessed (both CFL and NFL) have been low scoring. But soccer? Fuck that, right.

The thing about soccer is it may seem as simple as 'pass ball, shoot ball, obtain point'.

But with 11 players on both sides, and a moving offside line (always the last defender), you need to always be aware of what's going on around you. The reason there is a lot of passing back to your own team and playing wide (crossing the ball to the other side of the field) is because you're trying to draw their players away from their net (defensive zone) so you can create an opening to slip a player by. There are so many players back defending that it's almost impossible to simply attack all of the time. And in professional soccer each team only gets 3 subs - so not only would attacking all the time leave your team open for counter-attacks, it would completely deplete your players energy, and by the end of the game they'd struggle to make proper plays.


As for the time thing - really? you find it so hard to subtract a number under 90 from 90 to get how much time is roughly left? I don't really mean that as an attack on you or anything...but...really? The point of the counting up is simply because you're counting how long you've been playing - not down until the game ends. Since there is extra time, there is no way to set a specific amount of time, since a game may go on for only 90 minutes, or it may go on for 96. The ref is the sole 'keeper of the time'. The only reason the game ends is because he wants to end it.


And to say soccer isn't fan friendly is also sort of ignorant. Soccer is one of the only sports that I know of that actually puts the fans first. In interviews (with players/coaches) most of the time a player will say a win is for the fans, or they're upset they couldn't win for the fans, or they're happy to win a championship for the fans. Coaches/Managers have a good friendship with the official supporter groups of the team for the most part. Compare that to another sport. Why do baseball players want to win a World Series? For the fans, or because they grew up wanting to win it for themselves? (Same with every other North American sport). Soccer players understand that they wouldn't be there if not for the fans, and they don't take the fans for granted. They understand they wouldn't be making millions of dollars (depending on league) if not for the fans.

A thing I'll say is that if you want to try get into watching Soccer, start with the English Premier League, and not the MLS (Unless maybe your city has a team, and you plan on going to a game to get into it). Nothing wrong with the MLS, fans are great, buildings are good (The Whitecaps [for example] get about 20,000-21000 fans a game) - but the caliber of skill isn't really too comparable for the most part.



Anyways, personally I like practically all sports. I like competition, not because I want to win (Winning is obviously nice), but I just like the elements of competing, and the small things about each sport that make that sport different and good. Me and my brother pretty much have played every single sport since we were little. Growing up all we did was play sports right after school every day, and then when it was too dark for sports we'd come inside and play video games.

I do have one bone to pick though. Basketball. I do like basketball, but I don't like dunking. I hate dunking. You just have to be tall to dunk, and being tall is not a skill. Learn to consistently shoot 3-pointers, then get back to me. I'll take on a team of Shaqs with my team of Steve Nashs any day.

[Professor S]

That's a pretty closed-minded view. The 0-0 tie thing. As if there aren't low-scoring games in other sports, and as if offense is the only credible way to judge a sport. Why can't solid defence be exciting? Why does a game need a combination of 40 points in it to be exciting?

It's all a matter of taste, but to be specific, it's not necessarily the scoring I dislike but the lack of any real excitement.

Here is what I hate, presented in the form of broadcast play-by-play:

"Jones passes to Smith, Smith passes back to Miller, Miller passes back to Jones, Jones passes to Miller, Miller to Smith, Smith to Jones, Jones to Jenkins, Jenkins to Smith, Miller drinks a Cafe con Leche, Smith to Jones' zombie corpse (died of old age), Jones zombie corpse to Smith...

*fast forward 20 minutes*

Wait... did someone pass the ball near the goal? What? SCORE????

GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL!!!! I'M OVERLY EXCITED BECAUSE SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAAAAPPEEEENNNNNNNNEEED!"

[Typhoid]

I don't mean this as an insult, but what you're talking about, I believe to be the main problem with the general populace of North American sports fans. It's all about constant action (opposed to strategy), and getting as many points as possible (opposed to preventing as many points as possible).

Ironically Unrelated:

That said I like the CFL far more than the NFL. Let's take talent aside, considering that's all relative. Sure the CFL players for the most part couldn't directly compete with NFL players - but since they're not playing NFL players it's not an issue.

The thing I like most about the CFL is the size of the field. Not to mention only having 3 downs makes the game visibly faster.

You can't just try for short yardage all the time since you only get 2 downs before the decision to kick it away.
Plus there are subtle differences I like more. I love the fact a touchback is a point - that makes the reciever have to make a choice of A) Not being a pussy and running out of the endzone, or B) Give up a point to the other team and concede that you are a pussy and just take the ball on the 20. That way you also have 1 other strategic way in the CFL to try and possibly tie up a late game (If for some reason you can't make a field goal). I'm also pretty sure the NFL took the 2 point safety from the CFL.

The other knock on the CFL is the lack of teams - big deal. It's not like in the NFL each team plays everyone once anyways. In the CFL you get huge rivalries since you play each team a handful of times in a single year, opposed to maybe only seeing a team once every few years.


Plus the Grey Cup has been awarded for over 100, that's pretty neat.

[Professor S]

I don't mean this as an insult, but what you're talking about, I believe to be the main problem with the general populace of North American sports fans. It's all about constant action (opposed to strategy), and getting as many points as possible (opposed to preventing as many points as possible).

Well considering the two most popular sports in North America are American Football and Baseball, and they involve more strategy than any other sports I know, I can safely disagree. North Americans like action, strategy, and suspense. All of it, not just one of the three. I prefer to not cheat myself out of entertainment.

[Typhoid]

Well considering the two most popular sports in North America are American Football and Baseball, and they involve more strategy than any other sports I know, I can safely disagree. North Americans like action, strategy, and suspense. All of it, not just one of the three. I prefer to not cheat myself out of entertainment.


My sloppy point was that BECAUSE of the fact scoring in Football is 6+1/3 points, and scoring in Baseball is so very frequent, and they are the two most popular sports - the average sportsfan will equate low scoring with a boring sport/no action.
Even take Basketball, a game where 80-100 points per team is pretty standard.

Look at hockey in the 90's, before it was big(ger than it is now) in the US. You had a whole lot of 0-0 ties, and 1-0 games. Then they started altering the rules (towards 2000 and on) to garner more scoring so the game would be more advertisable to the American public who valued a high final score over a strategically defensive game. It's a moot point now, but the fact of altering a game to raise scoring for viewership stands.

I'd argue that if the average American fan truly valued strategy, they'd be more appreciative of how much strategy goes into stopping the opposing team from scoring (in any sport, except maybe bowling?), rather than hoping the opposing team doesn't have the proper strategy to stop you from getting a dumb amount of points.


That, I believe is what clouds the judgement of many Americans into jumping into watching Soccer, is that it's so different than a sport they're used to watching because the game is built around defense, rather than primarily offense. Obviously scoring is important, but getting a goal scored on you in soccer is a big deal. Not because "nothing happens" and you just "pass the ball back and forth for 90 minutes", but because it's like a chess match. Every goal you score is like taking off an important piece from the other side, and you want to defend your goal at all costs.

To keep with the chess metaphor, sure - you can all-out-attack sometimes, and sure, sometimes you'll just plow through your opponent. But if you try to simply attack attack attack against a skilled chess player, that motherfucker will pick you apart piece by piece. So you're always trying to subtly get a leg up until you see a major opening that you can slip your Rook into, baby.
Obviously there are some players who play simply to score goals, and never pass - and that is equally as eqciting


All joking aside though, if you're near an MLS team, I would suggest going to a game, despite what I said earlier. I mean, if you legitimately don't like the sport and don't want to actually give it a shot, don't bother. But the game is different than what you think it is, (And the crowd atmosphere is amazing, always chanting, singing, drums beating - although I can't speak for whatever city you might be near.) It's not the Simpsons-style "pass to___, pass to ___, back to ____". Obviously there is a lot of passing. The game is based around passing a ball. That is one of the main things of the game, passing. Definitely expect passing.
Picture it like the NFL. There is passing in the NFL. In the NFL a good pass (I mean a throw, not a lateral/handback, which is also a pass) is highly lauded, give it the same respect in Soccer. Not every NFL pass gets caught for a touchdown, but you can appreciate the effort on behalf of the passer, the passee, and the person trying to block the ball.
Hell, even in Baseball the primary thing is passing a ball. You can call it a throw, but you're passing another dude the ball for a minimum 9 innings. The pitcher passes it to the catcher, the batter tries to block the pass and boot it out to a field, before another player tries to pick it up and pass it to any one various base to try get the pass-blocker out because he's mean for ruining their nice game of pass.


I'd love to hear that version of baseball on TV. :lolz:

"Halladay passes the ball to the catcher. Ball 1. The catcher passes the ball back to Halladay. Halladay passes the ball to the catcher. Ball 2. The catcher passes the ball back to Halladay. Halladay passes the ball to the catcher. Ball 3. The catcher passes the ball back to Halladay. Halladay passes the ball to the catcher. The batter blocks the pass. Pass block fouled. The Umpire passes the ball to the Catcher who then passes the ball to Halladay. Halladay passes the ball to the Catcher. The Batter blocks the pass out to left field, the fielder grabs the ball and passes it to the first baseman. The pass blocker is out. The first baseman passes the ball to Halladay. The next pass blocker walks in front of the catcher. Halladay passes the ball to the Catcher. Ball 1."

[Seth]

Hits its to the outfield and gets passed out at first? haha

I wish I didn't have to pay big mula for the sports package in order to access English Premier games.

[Professor S]

Again, I don't buy the "North Americans don't like strategy" argument. The two most popular sports in NA are Football and Baseball, and they are both FAR more strategic than soccer, IMO. And its not as if North Americans don't understand soccer. Its the biggest youth sport in America. If anything, soccer simply isn't strategic or suspenseful enough to break through as a popular spectator sport.

Let's also not discount the money factor. It's very difficult to broadcast a sport when the stations can't easily insert commercial breaks. They don't want soccer to be a popular spectator sport.

[Typhoid]

Again, I don't buy the "North Americans don't like strategy" argument.

I never said they/we simply don't like strategy. I was just saying North Americans prefer scoring to defense which makes it hard for your average fan to get into Soccer, which is a game based on exposing holes in the other defense.


The two most popular sports in NA are Football and Baseball, and they are both FAR more strategic than soccer, IMO. And its not as if North Americans don't understand soccer. Its the biggest youth sport in America. If anything, soccer simply isn't strategic or suspenseful enough to break through as a popular spectator sport.\

I'm not really disagreeing with you except for the fact that Soccer is a highly strategic game. Watching a game on TV doesn't do it justice because you can't see the whole field, meaning you can't see all of the players. It'd be like trying to grasp Football without seeing the TE's. You'd never understand their importance unless you could see the whole field in person - or even trying to understand how athletic an OF in baseball has to be if all you ever see is the hit, and the throw after the catch - and not the run to the catch/dive. you'd just assume those dudes are relatively always standing still.

And I never said baseball and Football don't have strategy. Every sport has strategy. And trying to argue the specific strategic value of each sport compared to each other sport is moot, because each sports' strategic element is 100% importantly valid within that sport. I thoroughly like both of those sports. It's not like I'm trying to say Soccer is better, or something else is worse. Soccer just doesn't get the credit it deserves. I'm putting in to get some brownie points with Soccer.

I'll also just say while Soccer is a really popular kids sport, it's for all the wrong reasons. It's because it's the cheapest and most easily accessible, plus it's a good way for parents to let their kids burn off all their energy. (Hell, that's how I got into it.) If you watch kids play Soccer it's actually funny. They just swarm the ball all game every game. You can't teach a 5-10 year old real Soccer strategy, because it's all "Stand here, wait. Cut off the angle. Sprint there, cut off the angle. Don't just kick the ball away, make a smart decision with it. Be creative. Don't panic." Little kids playing Soccer just want to run around after a little ball with their friends. Which is totally fine, and a good way to tire the hell out of your kids before night. We personally didn't get taught proper strategy (How to be patient, make your own, smart decisions) until the game started to get physical and highly competitive, which was around 14, which is when kids start quitting Soccer because it becomes a serious sport and they stop having fun playing it. Most people I knew back then quit because we had to actually learn strategies, and started getting actually 'coached' opposed to just led by someone's dad. Where as in hockey (for example) you're practically coached since you start as a little kid, and it's a sport you (If you're Canadian) watch so you already understand the subtleties of it. Same with American kids and Baseball/Football. The strategies of those games aren't just thrust on them when they reach highschool - they grow up playing those games semi-properly from day one. That's completely not really important, but I smoked a joint halfway up that paragraph and got carried away.

It's very difficult to broadcast a sport when the stations can't easily insert commercial breaks. They don't want soccer to be a popular spectator sport.


Obviously I agree. That's the very sad no-brainer of it.