Bin Laden Dead

[The Germanator]

Killed by US action. The US has his body. Obama to speak soon. Wow.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/osama-bin-laden-is-killed.html?hp

[BreakABone]

Yeah, its been crazy on the web.

But huge news.

[Neo]

Huge boost for Obama.

[Vampyr]

Is anyone else ready to watch this now?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37/Captain_America_The_First_Avenger_poster.jpg

[BreakABone]

http://i.imgur.com/E1I1v.jpg

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkjsa0vvlq1qzu2tdo1_400.gif

[Combine 017]

Neat.
Now create world peace and lower gas prices.

[BreakABone]

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q04a3trBs6Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

For those who didn't see the speech

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/02/world/02binladen4_683/02binladen4_683-custom11.jpg

[Bond]

Owned.

[Fox 6]

When is the movie coming out?

[Dylflon]

Too bad George W. Bush already blew the aircraft carrier and 'mission accomplished' banner budget. As well as the rest of your guys' money.

[Professor S]

Too bad George W. Bush already blew the aircraft carrier and 'mission accomplished' banner budget. As well as the rest of your guys' money.

Well at least no one made this political...:rolleyes:

Anyway, hats off the the President for giving the go ahead for committing to an action deep in Pakistan. With so many stories of American military mistakes and stagnation, its good to see a military action where the good guys live, the bad guys die, and everything goes as planned.

Navy Seals, bitches.

And yes, I'm waiting for the movie.

[Vampyr]

Evidently they have footage of the attack.

I bet they'll use it as the intro video for Modern Warfare 3.

[KillerGremlin]

It was amazing to see all the people in DC and at Ground Zero last night....it's hard to believe (IMO) that people still have hung onto to the actions of ONE guy. I mean....since 9/11....2 wars....a trillion+ spent....over 900,000+ dead...Patriot Act....TSA ass rape....

To say the least, a lot has changed in 10 years. I wonder if (and we can reflect on this some years into the future I am sure) the events of the past 10 years really did hinge on one act of terrorism driven by an organization lead by Osama, or if the pieces would have fallen into place anyway due to larger political issues.

Anyway, I always enjoy these brief moments of American unity where everyone gets together and celebrates how great it is to be an American. I hope this signifies a turning point for our country over the next 10 years.

[Teuthida]

^ The last brief moment of American unity was right after 9/11...and look how well that turned out.

[Dylflon]

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/226511_10150166740957352_531967351_7115123_7731391_n.jpg


Prof: If you don't want me to make things political through my joking/seriousness, then get out of the politics forum. USA! USA! USA!

[Angrist]

I personally think Osama Bin Laden stole Obama's birth certificate.

It's the only logical explanation.

[KillerGremlin]

^ The last brief moment of American unity was right after 9/11...and look how well that turned out.

Well, that's the thing. Immediately following 9-11, there was a lot of hatred for Al Qaeda. Perhaps some of it was misguided...but hindsight is 20/20. When we went to war I would say it was a pretty 50-50 thing with a lot of people not wanting to go. But we had a solid scapegoat....terrorists. So now that there is no Osama Bin Laden, I suspect that the populace will be less enthusiastic about the war (which is also misguided o_O).

[Dylflon]

Interesting article on the effect of Bin Laden on America.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/05/02/neil-macdonald-osama-bin-laden.html

[KillerGremlin]

Interesting article on the effect of Bin Laden on America.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/05/02/neil-macdonald-osama-bin-laden.html

Yup. This articles hits the nail on the head and kind of reflects the direction I was pointing my last two posts. After consideration, I don't think you can have a free society and never have terrorism. But accepting that implication hurts. It's not ideal, and my guess is that most people don't want to hear it. Hence...the past 10 years.

So then it becomes a policy debate around "where is the middle ground." What has the increased airport security, or the wars, or the Patriot Act really done to stop terrorism? And, how much have those measures helped compared to how much they have hurt us.

I think it will be under misguided pretense that many people will believe that we have absolved terrorism by dethroning Osama. We have crushed the Al Queda! My biggest concern at this point is that people won't actually learn from the history of the past 10 years, and lord knows if you don't learn from the past you inevitably repeat it.

[Professor S]

Osama Bin laden is killed, and within one page of posts, not 24 hours later, it becomes about how awful America is. Amazing. Can't there be one day, one happy day, where people can just objectively admit America did something right without having to compulsively slap a "but" at the end?

America could cure cancer and we'd see posts about how unfair America is to malignant tumors.

[Fox 6]

Osama Bin laden is killed, and within one page of posts, not 24 hours later, it becomes about how awful America is. Amazing. Can't there be one day, one happy day, where people can just objectively admit America did something right without having to compulsively slap a "but" at the end?

America could cure cancer and we'd see posts about how unfair America is to malignant tumors.

But isn't freedom of opinion the most worthwhile America stands for?

:p

Sorry couldnt help but fan the fire hee hee

[Combine 017]

Anyway, hats off the the President for giving the go ahead for committing to an action deep in Pakistan. With so many stories of American military mistakes and stagnation, its good to see a military action where the good guys live, the bad guys die, and everything goes as planned.

In the eyes of Al Qaeda the good guys die and the bad guys won.

I dont think American forces are going to leave Iraq now either.
At least at the end of WW1 they left Germany, and that turned out fine.

[Professor S]

In the eyes of Al Qaeda the good guys die and the bad guys won..

And a rapist believes his victims "asked for it". Hitler believed Jews were pests to be exterminated for the good of the world. Evil always believes it is justified.

[Combine 017]

And a rapist believes his victims "asked for it". Hitler believed Jews were pests to be exterminated for the good of the world. Evil always believes it is justified.

Thats true, I quite frequently think im justified.

What did they do with Bin Ladens body anyways?
I heard they "buried" it at sea.

And dont add periods to the end of my quotes, thats tampering of personal documents.

[Fox 6]

Way to lose a multi-million dollar helicopter in the Op. LOLZ :lolz:




:crazy:

[Professor S]

Thats true, I quite frequently think im justified.

What did they do with Bin Ladens body anyways?
I heard they "buried" it at sea.

It's preserved in amber in Paraguay, next to Hitler's brain.

[Combine 017]

It's preserved in amber in Paraguay, next to Hitler's brain.

Along with dinosaur DNA inside a mosquito. :p

[Swan]

Ok, just to get this straight I am in no way a fan of ANYTHING Osama did.



But does anybody find it a little strange to turn on the news and see crowds of people cheering over the death of a person?

I understand how he was the most hated person of the past decade and all that, but it still blows my mind to see thousands of people chanting because somebody died.

[Vampyr]

I definitely find it weird, and I've been torn between happiness and pure macabre-ness of it all. It feels very unnatural to celebrate the death of anything.

But I just think back to 9/11. The fear and terror all those people must have felt moments before they died, and what their families had to endure afterwords...and I just can't bring myself to feel anything but happiness that he was killed.

I think it's a dichotomy of human nature - we want vengeance but death is an unnatural thing to be happy about. In the end I guess it comes out to how human you really think he was. I think the people who completely reject the idea that someone could be happy about his death don't fully understand the atrocities he committed.

[Dylflon]

I think the thing to do is be happy that he can't be responsible for any more deaths.

[Teuthida]

Osama Bin laden is killed, and within one page of posts, not 24 hours later, it becomes about how awful America is. Amazing. Can't there be one day, one happy day, where people can just objectively admit America did something right without having to compulsively slap a "but" at the end?

No.



I haven't seen any footage but I found many of the celebration photos to be rather revolting. I can understand celebrating if you lost a loved one on that day (as I would have if it had happened a day earlier) but most of this is blind patriotism. Then again I'm also not a sports fan. I liken this to shouting "we did it" when your team wins and all your did was sit on the couch eating cheetos.

I can also see celebrating if he was killed shortly after 9/11 but since then hundreds of thousands of civilians died at the US's hands. One should be contemplative rather than celebratory.

And imagine how much better off our country would be if we stopped trying to police the world and used all that money for our own benefit? (Our drop in education compared to most other developed nations pisses me off more than anything.)

"We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient; that we are only 6 percent of the world's population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind; that we cannot right every wrong or reverse every adversity; and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."

We're 4.5% of the world's population now btw.

Basically, if you knew someone who died as a result one of Al Qaeda's attacks, celebrate however you like. Otherwise, kindly shut it. We're screwing ourselves over more than any terrorist organization directly did.

[Professor S]

While this is off-topic, I'll address it:

(Our drop in education compared to most other developed nations pisses me off more than anything.)

We spend more per student than all but one other country (Luxembourg, I believe). Money has nothing to do with it. The fact is our education system is broken because its become a bloated employment service. where the inmates run the asylum.

Back on topic:

For those who think this is just another opportunity to criticize America, well, God bless you and I'll leave it at that. If you can't just admit that there was ONE thing that we did so obviously right, then there is nothing anyone could say to dissuade you. Good news seems to infuriate those that think this way.

As for those who find it odd to take pleasure in another man's death, I sympathize, but I'll let Mark Twain put into words:

"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

[Teuthida]

Don't get me wrong, it's good bin Laden was taken out. But we didn't do anything. It was a group of CIA agents who finally nailed down where he was after a decade of our country needlessly killing hundreds of thousands of innocents. Which is why I feel we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back (or rather shouting and running around stupidly with American flags) and instead have some perspective on everything that led up to this.

[Professor S]

Don't get me wrong, it's good bin Laden was taken out. But we didn't do anything. It was a group of CIA agents who finally nailed down where he was after a decade of our country needlessly killing hundreds of thousands of innocents. Which is why I feel we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back (or rather shouting and running around stupidly with American flags) and instead have some perspective on everything that led up to this.

1) As a tax paying citizen we provide the ability for the CIA and Navy Seals to exist.

2) We didn't kill hundreds of thousands of innocents. Not even close. Those numbers that are often quoted are a combination of the small percentage of collateral (and regrettable) casualties caused by military activity and the high percentage of innocents killed by those we were fighting through IEDs, suicide bombings, tribal warfare, etc. People who want to persuade you that the war was evil claim that the US is just as much at fault for the actions of our enemies as they are, so they give us credit for all of it. There was a post about this a few years ago if I remember correctly...

3) Keep in mind we have no clue if we would have ever gotten Bin Laden without the war, establishing a "beach head" of sorts, capturing enemies and interrogating them, etc. The currently accepted theory in the media is that the intelligence that helped find Bin Laden came from Guantanamo, another morally ambiguous activity.

[Teuthida]

Which makes me feel sick knowing my tax dollars helped kill so many.

And even if those numbers aren't as high (as a result of direct US killings), it was all to kill one sick man. Other than some relief to the families he took from and a morale boost, what else did his death bring? How many less would be dead if the US didn't feel the need to go balls out trying to get to him? Pretty much every other half-baked terrorist plot by al-Qaeda was foiled since 9/11. And not because of all the strict new regulations either.

To your #3: Does that mean then, those wars were all for nothing since we had the leads to his capture so close to home all that time? That sounds even worse to me.

[Professor S]

And even if those numbers aren't as high (as a result of direct US killings), it was all to kill one sick man. Other than some relief to the families he took from and a morale boost, what else did his death bring?

You're misremembering the rationale for going to war in the first place. Even to Bush Bin laden was only a target. One of many. The war was against state-sponsored terrorism. Agree or disagree with it, that is how it was presented and approved.

Pretty much every other half-baked terrorist plot by al-Qaeda was foiled since 9/11. And not because of all the strict new regulations either.

The successes had nothing to do with interrogations or wiretapping? And you're sure of this? If so, you have high-ranking sources I am unaware of.

To your #3: Does that mean then, those wars were all for nothing since we had the leads to his capture so close to home all that time? That sounds even worse to me.

Only a handful of detainees were from terror-cells in the US. Most were captured in the Middle East during military operations. Again, without the war we have no idea whether or not we would have ever captured Bin Laden.

[Teuthida]

And according to Bush we invaded Iraq because of WMDs. I don't give credence to Bush's rationale for anything.

The foiled ones I was referring to were the those the public knows about. They directly affected security measures though, what with the limit on liquids, removal of shoes, etc. But you're right, I don't know about what might have been countless others.

Once again, one guilty dude's death vs [insert number here] of innocents.

The past is past. Was just saying it would be better to reflect on what brought us to this point and tread more carefully than we have been, instead of mindlessly chanting "USA USA" (http://youtu.be/MxVdU2eVYSg).

I don't have anymore time today to post. Have yourself some pie.

P.S. I would like to have a thread on education in the future if just so I can learn why things are the way they are.

[KillerGremlin]

P.S. I would like to have a thread on education in the future if just so I can learn why things are the way they are.

I can't speak on behalf of all populations, but recently I have been researching the hell out of programs like Teach for America (I had some interest). I also am involved in research in a lab where some focus is on the education deficit amongst inner-city populations, and specifically Black and Latino youth. As with most things there are multiple ways to tell the story. One influential factor seems to be lack of parental involvement. Since a lot of inner-city families are poor, parents work 2 or 3 jobs. The parents are never home so kids never get support at home from the parents. Support from parents at home has been shown to be CRUCIAL in fostering positive learning. There are other issues too. For example, someone in my lab is looking at Latino populations. Within that population there is a strong tendency for parents to have the belief that the school is completely responsible for educating their kids. This does not create a supportive environment in the home, which in turn might lead to doing worse in school.

There are other issues too. One theory (controversial) is that there are strong anti-white feelings within parts of the black community. If "being educated" equals "being white" there is a tendency within the black population for blacks to look down upon peers who are educated.

It's just a multitude of socio-economic factors fucking everyone over, at least in the poorer communities.

I think that is a BIG part of it. There are a million and one broad scale issues, issues specifically applicable to the way that the USA does education. And that is where Prof probably should take over.

[Professor S]

And according to Bush we invaded Iraq because of WMDs. I don't give credence to Bush's rationale for anything.

I was referring to Afghanistan. You are correct about Iraq.

Once again, one guilty dude's death vs [insert number here] of innocents.

Again, I reject the supposition of your argument, so there is little to argue about here. We are talking about two different things.

The past is past. Was just saying it would be better to reflect on what brought us to this point and tread more carefully than we have been, instead of mindlessly chanting "USA USA".

In the long run, of course, but I think America can share a brief shared sigh of relief before the "boo birds" start chirping. Its just not good form, IMO.

I don't have anymore time today to post. Have yourself some pie.

Pie is delicious, but I'm on Atkins... great... now I want pie.

P.S. I would like to have a thread on education in the future if just so I can learn why things are the way they are.

Oh wow, that could take days and it goes all the way back to FDR and the red-lining of districts during the days of the NRA.

[Professor S]

I can't speak on behalf of all populations, but recently I have been researching the hell out of programs like Teach for America (I had some interest). I also am involved in research in a lab where some focus is on the education deficit amongst inner-city populations, and specifically Black and Latino youth. As with most things there are multiple ways to tell the story. One influential factor seems to be lack of parental involvement. Since a lot of inner-city families are poor, parents work 2 or 3 jobs. The parents are never home so kids never get support at home from the parents. Support from parents at home has been shown to be CRUCIAL in fostering positive learning. There are other issues too. For example, someone in my lab is looking at Latino populations. Within that population there is a strong tendency for parents to have the belief that the school is completely responsible for educating their kids. This does not create a supportive environment in the home, which in turn might lead to doing worse in school.

There are other issues too. One theory (controversial) is that there are strong anti-white feelings within parts of the black community. If "being educated" equals "being white" there is a tendency within the black population for blacks to look down upon peers who are educated.

It's just a multitude of socio-economic factors fucking everyone over, at least in the poorer communities.

I think that is a BIG part of it. There are a million and one broad scale issues, issues specifically applicable to the way that the USA does education. And that is where Prof probably should take over.

You hit the nail on the head. Thomas Sowell actually does a great job of explaining how events unfold to create subsidies for lowered expectations and performance (fast forward to 2:30, but the whole dialogue is good):

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2GklCBvS-eI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

During the Great Depression families were paid more assistance if they did not have a male head of household. Also, the NRA sent workers to jobs far away from their families. Add to the this the endemic racism prevalent in the government at the time and you have your modern ghettos where black workers were housed in the worst areas and segregated. Meanwhile, at home, an entire generation of African American children were growing up without a father figure.

Ever wonder why white poverty is concentrated in the mid-west and black poverty is concentrated in urban areas? ITS NOT A MISTAKE. It's what happens when your government stops serving you and starts controlling you.

[Teuthida]

^ Is that system for how money is distributed still in place?

Which also goes back to your earlier point about money not being an issue. In many countries there are state-funded free colleges. That makes a huuuuuge difference. Both my parents were from working class families and the only way my mother was able to go to college was because NYC's were free at the time (which isn't the case now). (My father's college was paid for by the Air Force.)

There's also the poor salary of teachers, or rather they go where the pay is better. For example I know one can make more teaching on Long Island than here in the city.

You might find this interesting. I went to this middle school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Armstrong_Middle_School) which I only just learned was founded as a court-ordered experiment in racial integration.

And there's that whole deal with Texas dictating what goes into the country's text books which is messed up on a number of levels (and was discussed in an earlier thread). We can go into the Christian right hijacking science as well, so even a child who wants to learn might be getting the wrong information.

There are a ton of other factors too which could easily be improved (and would of course require more money), such as longer school days, or shorter vacations (kids forget so much over the summer break). There was an article about some Korean school in the NYTimes maybe a year or two ago. They spent about 12 hours at school 6 days a week. Now that's what I'm talking about.

[Professor S]

^ Is that system for how money is distributed still in place?

No child left behind changed it a bit, but yes, its generally how it works. I know if Philadelphia the highest dollar amount per child is spent in the worst districts.

Which also goes back to your earlier point about money not being an issue. In many countries there are state-funded free colleges. That makes a huuuuuge difference. Both my parents were from working class families and the only way my mother was able to go to college was because NYC's were free at the time (which isn't the case now). (My father's college was paid for by the Air Force.)

There's also the poor salary of teachers, or rather they go where the pay is better. For example I know one can make more teaching on Long Island than here in the city.

You might find this interesting. I went to this middle school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Armstrong_Middle_School) which I only just learned was founded as a court-ordered experiment in racial integration.

And there's that whole deal with Texas dictating what goes into the country's text books which is messed up on a number of levels (and was discussed in an earlier thread). We can go into the Christian right hijacking science as well, so even a child who wants to learn might be getting the wrong information.

There are a ton of other factors too which could easily be improved (and would of course require more money), such as longer school days, or shorter vacations (kids forget so much over the summer break). There was an article about some Korean school in the NYTimes maybe a year or two ago. They spent about 12 hours at school 6 days a week. Now that's what I'm talking about.

Keep in mind, there is no such thing as "free" college, "free" healthcare, etc. Someone pays for it, and usually there is massive waste and debt involved. This is why New York no longer pays for college and part of the reason why California is in financial crisis. "Free" = unsustainable.

Most of what you describe is the result one the fatal flaw in the public school system: There is no choice. If you live in a certain district, your children go to a certain school. If you want options, you have to pay above what you are already paying in school taxes. More often you have to move to get out of them, and in the most poor areas (the areas that need choice the most) this is not a real possibility. The reality of no school choice affects the economy as well. A bad school poisons the real estate market around it, which poisons the businesses in the community, etc.

There is not a problem with the system. The system is the problem.

[Teuthida]

Except there is a choice. At least there is here in NYC. I would hope it's the case in other urban areas as well. Though I can't see it working elsewhere where things are more spread out.

Basically you have your zoned high school, with access to pretty much every other public school in NYC depending on your grades and/or a specialty test. So if you're poor and live in a lousy neighborhood you can still go to your school of choice or at least one a bit better than what you might be stuck with. A lot of normal zoned schools offer advanced programs too so that if you're a good student you can get a better education than the average curriculum of that school. You can also easily transfer to another as I did if you aren't satisfied where you first end up. Believe Earl did as well. So there are actually a ton of opportunities to move around. No one is stuck unless they're apathetic.

So high schools are not the problem. Not sure if one is stuck at their junior/middle school or if the one I went to was the only exception. I see that being a problem, yes.

Also since I've been in school, a lot more specialty schools (not vocational but rather an average school with a perk such as a great music program) have cropped up so that students with just average grades can get something more out of school than if they went to their zoned.

It would be interesting to see the numbers for this all this stuff. It might be a good model for more of the country to adopt. Believe this is pretty much how the school system works in Japan. Think they takes tests to determine what middle school they go to as well.

[Vampyr]

So what do you do if your parents work in the morning and can't take you to your school of choice?

School buses can only take you to the school in your district that you're supposed to go to.

I think a decent system would be to introduce government given vouchers for an all private school system, but again, how do you go about making sure every child has a fair chance to actually GET to the school?

[Teuthida]

Public transportation. Students are given a metrocard so they can travel for free on weekdays. For middle school those furthest away were picked up by school bus (I'm not aware of the district limitations) and those closer took public transportation. Actually, I know one or a couple of the specialized science high schools had school buses. Not sure what the deal was with that. But either way, the commute between the furthest points away from each other in the city are about two hours by public transportation. I actually didn't go to a school I got into at first because I didn't want to commute so far away. I ended up going a year later and it was a pain to get to, but quite doable. Got a lot of reading done on the train.

Again, I have no idea how this system would work in a more spread out area. Either your parents take you or a more complicated busing system is put into place.

[Vampyr]

Yeah, most places do not have public transportation.

[Professor S]

You are both thinking about this from the prism that education must be centrally controlled.

The internet has allowed amazing things to be done with home schooling and community schooling. Giant schools that treat students like cattle are part of the issue.

Part of the solution also needs to be removing the stigma that surround vocational school. College really isn't for everyone. Actually, since most people go to college and treat it like a vocational school, I'd say its not for MOST people.

Our entire educational system is locked in old thinking and idealistic fantasy, not pragmatism or results.

[thatmariolover]

Honestly I think the saddest part has been reading the International reaction. Half of the opinions I've seen coming from the UK have been batshit crazy ramblings about Bin Laden already being dead.

It seems like there's a large demographic in the international community that jumps on any sensational news slant that prescribes to their preformulated assumption that America is a bunch of corrupt, capricious cowboys.

http://i.imgur.com/VvERP.png

[Teuthida]

I got a chuckle out of Arctic Texas. And speaking of Texas:

A Texas high school teacher has been placed on administrative leave following an incident where he allegedly told a 9th grade Muslim girl in his algebra class "I bet that you're grieving" on Monday following the death of Osama bin Laden.

According to one parent at Clear Brook High School in Houston who spoke about the incident to a local ABC affiliate, the teacher also said, "I heard about your uncle's death."

"The student ended up crying over what was said to her by the teacher and the teacher asked her why she was crying and another student said it was because of what you said earlier," the parent told the station. "And his response was, oh, OK, and just kind of smirked and giggled and walked away."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/tx-teacher-suspended-after-telling-muslim-student-i-bet-youre-grieving.php?ref=dcblt

[Vampyr]

You are both thinking about this from the prism that education must be centrally controlled.

The internet has allowed amazing things to be done with home schooling and community schooling. Giant schools that treat students like cattle are part of the issue.

Part of the solution also needs to be removing the stigma that surround vocational school. College really isn't for everyone. Actually, since most people go to college and treat it like a vocational school, I'd say its not for MOST people.

Our entire educational system is locked in old thinking and idealistic fantasy, not pragmatism or results.

I'm not saying it must be centrally controlled, I'm just having trouble with the logistics of making sure every child is able to get to school. Right now having a government funded and controlled school system means they can track who is and who isn't coming to school, and go after parents who aren't sending their kids to school. Requiring kids to go to the district that they live in means every kid is guaranteed to have transportation.

If you let parents and kids choose which school to go to, the good schools would be crowded and children with parents who didn't care or don't have the means to send them to the better school would be unfairly left out.

I don't think home schooling is really a great option. School is as much about the social growth of people as it is the academic growth, and if home schooling was too acceptable and a lot of people were doing it I think you would also see a lot of slacker parents who don't teach their kids everything they need to know.

As for vocational schools, yeah. College isn't for everyone. Personally I think college is scam that we all pay too much money for. Most degrees aren't worth anything. Teens are indoctrinated into the mindset that they should major in something they "love" with no regard for their future.

You're paying a crap ton of money to a University so that you can ultimately get a degree that is supposed to help you get a decent job. Instead people pay Universities a crap ton of money to get a degree that won't help them with much of anything, and once they graduate they don't really know what to do with themselves because the only thing they've done their whole lives is go back to school. So what do they do? "Eh, I guess I'll just go for my Masters." This decision is made with seemingly no forethought put into what good that masters degree will actually do them in the long run. Instead they sink further and further into debt because of how easy it is to get loans to pay for something so expensive you'll be working for decades to pay it off.

College has me pretty jaded. I feel extremely fortunate that I got a scholarship and majored in something that allowed me to get a good job. I have a friend who was majoring in the same thing I was, dropped out after 2 years in, and is now making as much money as I do doing the same job I do. If I had actually payed for my college I'd be even more annoyed than I am at the idea I potentially wasted 4 years doing homework.

I think we should tell teens and future college students to major in something they -like-, not necessarily love, that has real world applications.

If you absolutely adore philosophy and can't imagine a life where you don't "do" philosophy, that's fine. Go to the library and check out books on philosophy. Read and study philosophy to your hearts desire. You don't need to pay a University an insane amount of money so that you can be bored in a classroom while a professor who doesn't really care about teaching drones on word-for-word on the same things you could have just read yourself.

[Typhoid]

America could cure cancer and we'd see posts about how unfair America is to malignant tumors.

Then I guess that just depends on if they waterboarded the cancer out of the patients, and what your definition of 'patient' is.




Anyways - seriously - I was obviously pretty excited that he's dead. Now, i didn't shout any type of 'hooray', or show any type of outward excitement like that. But internally, it's good to know that he isn't breathing anymore.

I put this on par with the death of Hitler. Obviously they did very different things, in a relatively similar manner - but the death of each is sort of the nail in the coffin.

I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of another human being, because I personally feel that nomatter what someone has done, nomatter how bad - they should have to live with the consequences, not die with them. I'd personally have rather seen Osama (And Saddam, for that matter), live the rest of their lives in jail. Solitary confinement, even. Death is what they expect. Death is what they prepare for. They know if they get captured, they will most likely die. They prepare for this. They warp their idea of their faith to reflect this. Keeping them alive would defy them of what they believe in. That is what I would have wished for him. Personally.


Anyways, to all the people who are creaming their pants with the "Why was he buried so fast" etc. Obviously his body was dumped so fast and anonymously so that nobody could recover the body and construct some type of shrine. What would you rather they do with the body? Put it in the Smithsonian as "The person who was held accountable for the death of thousands of people, and a global war"?


Anyways. Rot. I hope Osama Bin Laden's afterlife is nothing like he imagined.

[Professor S]

I'm not saying it must be centrally controlled, I'm just having trouble with the logistics of making sure every child is able to get to school. Right now having a government funded and controlled school system means they can track who is and who isn't coming to school, and go after parents who aren't sending their kids to school. Requiring kids to go to the district that they live in means every kid is guaranteed to have transportation.

If you let parents and kids choose which school to go to, the good schools would be crowded and children with parents who didn't care or don't have the means to send them to the better school would be unfairly left out.

I don't think home schooling is really a great option. School is as much about the social growth of people as it is the academic growth, and if home schooling was too acceptable and a lot of people were doing it I think you would also see a lot of slacker parents who don't teach their kids everything they need to know.

All of your concerns are absolutely valid, but that doesn't mean they are insurmountable. This is a case where regulation is preferable to control. Students can be tracked without having to "check in" on a daily basis. Testing currently monitors students' progress when they attend a centrally controlled school, and testing can track the same for home schooled students.

I'd urge you to look a little more deeply into modern home schooling. There are a lot of great things going on right now, and the internet has been a huge benefit.

Also, after seeing how charter schools basically saved education in New Orleans after Katrina, I'm a big fan of them as well. They are private institutions that use public funds and add a lot of choice and get great results.

[Combine 017]

This has gone kind of viral on facebook and twitter.

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

I also found Arctic Texas amusing.

[thatmariolover]

This has gone kind of viral on facebook and twitter.

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."


I also found Arctic Texas amusing.

The problem is that it was passed off as a MLK quote and it's not.

[Combine 017]

It is a MLK quote, the part in quotes anyways.
It started off as I have it written there but as it went viral it was all put together as one quote.

[Bond]

Hey - let's stop the hate on Texas now ... Austin is a progressive city. It's the Berkeley and Madison of the South.

[The Germanator]

Hey - let's stop the hate on Texas now ... Austin is a progressive city. It's the Berkeley and Madison of the South.

Hell yeah. Austin is the best. The rest of Texas, not so much. It's truly an oasis. Probably one of the top 5 cities I've been to.

[Bond]

Hell yeah. Austin is the best. The rest of Texas, not so much. It's truly an oasis. Probably one of the top 5 cities I've been to.
If I go to UT for law school I hope you are performing at SXSW next year. Any plans to?

[manasecret]

Yeah I did find that the New Yorkers I've met in particular are some of the most automatically prejudice against Texans people I've met. Not all of course, but it did amaze me how many supposedly open-minded, non-judgmental people immediately assume you're a redneck racist asshole if you're from Texas. Broaden your horizons a bit before you immediately judge. I have found there are just about as many prejudice, racist assholes (including such people) everywhere you go.

Hell yeah. Austin is the best. The rest of Texas, not so much. It's truly an oasis. Probably one of the top 5 cities I've been to.

I abandoned this type of thinking several years ago, and I suggest you also broaden your horizons. There is a lot to love about every place on Earth.

[The Germanator]

If I go to UT for law school I hope you are performing at SXSW next year. Any plans to?

There's a good chance we'll be down there. We've been 4 out of the last 6 years, and we'll probably have a new album out, so there's always a reason to get down there.

[The Germanator]

Yeah I did find that the New Yorkers I've met in particular are some of the most automatically prejudice against Texans people I've met. Not all of course, but it did amaze me how many supposedly open-minded, non-judgmental people immediately assume you're a redneck racist asshole if you're from Texas. Broaden your horizons a bit before you immediately judge. I have found there are just about as many prejudice, racist assholes (including such people) everywhere you go.



I abandoned this type of thinking several years ago, and I suggest you also broaden your horizons. There is a lot to love about every place on Earth.

Yeah, you're right. I guess from my experiences so far, that's been the case, but I know every place has it's charm.

Being in one city for only one night at times can give you weird perspective. I detested L.A after our first visit because I had a horrible experience there, but then we spent a month there and had a much better time. I definitely used to pass judgement on all cities based on one night (and honestly, more or less the one block near the venue, or how well the show went!)...

But yeah, I understand that's pretty foolish now. Didn't mean to dismiss the rest of Texas, I've just spent the equivalent of at least a month over the length of my life in Austin, so I know it the best. All I know from West Texas is weird rest stops, though.

Oh, and I refuse to believe that Ohio doesn't suck. :p

[KillerGremlin]

Before I tackle individual posts, I thought I would post these two videos on education:

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[KillerGremlin]

You hit the nail on the head. Thomas Sowell actually does a great job of explaining how events unfold to create subsidies for lowered expectations and performance (fast forward to 2:30, but the whole dialogue is good):

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2GklCBvS-eI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

During the Great Depression families were paid more assistance if they did not have a male head of household. Also, the NRA sent workers to jobs far away from their families. Add to the this the endemic racism prevalent in the government at the time and you have your modern ghettos where black workers were housed in the worst areas and segregated. Meanwhile, at home, an entire generation of African American children were growing up without a father figure.

Ever wonder why white poverty is concentrated in the mid-west and black poverty is concentrated in urban areas? ITS NOT A MISTAKE. It's what happens when your government stops serving you and starts controlling you.

Wow....that is profound, and tragic. :(

No child left behind changed it a bit, but yes, its generally how it works. I know if Philadelphia the highest dollar amount per child is spent in the worst districts.

This is how it is in Chicago.


Except there is a choice. At least there is here in NYC. I would hope it's the case in other urban areas as well. Though I can't see it working elsewhere where things are more spread out.

Basically you have your zoned high school, with access to pretty much every other public school in NYC depending on your grades and/or a specialty test. So if you're poor and live in a lousy neighborhood you can still go to your school of choice or at least one a bit better than what you might be stuck with. A lot of normal zoned schools offer advanced programs too so that if you're a good student you can get a better education than the average curriculum of that school. You can also easily transfer to another as I did if you aren't satisfied where you first end up. Believe Earl did as well. So there are actually a ton of opportunities to move around. No one is stuck unless they're apathetic.

This is hugely victim-blaming. But blaming the victim aside, if it was that easy then everyone would be getting straight As and getting out of their bad high school. There are family issues, lack of resources within the school district, and lack of speciality programs. The big issue these days is cutting extra-curriculars, like music or after-school programs. These have been shown to provide structure and support for youth, but in a fleeting economy these have been the first things to go. After-school programs aside, you still have the urban environment, the drugs, the lack of parental figures, the poverty, and a bunch of other issues that feed into the school environment. I believe in the "if you work hard good things will come for you" mentality, but the number of hurdles are astronomical and should be considered.

...and go after parents who aren't sending their kids to school. Requiring kids to go to the district that they live in means every kid is guaranteed to have transportation.

Sadly, neither of these things are true. Believe you me. The CPS doesn't give a shit if you attend school or not, and they sure aren't going after the parents if they don't take their kids to school. This applies to rural ghettos as well (I know via my internship) and I assume it applies to urban settings outside of Chicago. Furthermore, transportation is never a guarantee. I know kids in the CPS that have a 2-hour commute both ways across numerous bus and train transfers.

If you let parents and kids choose which school to go to, the good schools would be crowded and children with parents who didn't care or don't have the means to send them to the better school would be unfairly left out.

This already happens...and is a sad reality.

As for vocational schools, yeah. College isn't for everyone. Personally I think college is scam that we all pay too much money for. Most degrees aren't worth anything. Teens are indoctrinated into the mindset that they should major in something they "love" with no regard for their future.

You're paying a crap ton of money to a University so that you can ultimately get a degree that is supposed to help you get a decent job. Instead people pay Universities a crap ton of money to get a degree that won't help them with much of anything, and once they graduate they don't really know what to do with themselves because the only thing they've done their whole lives is go back to school. So what do they do? "Eh, I guess I'll just go for my Masters." This decision is made with seemingly no forethought put into what good that masters degree will actually do them in the long run. Instead they sink further and further into debt because of how easy it is to get loans to pay for something so expensive you'll be working for decades to pay it off.

College has me pretty jaded. I feel extremely fortunate that I got a scholarship and majored in something that allowed me to get a good job. I have a friend who was majoring in the same thing I was, dropped out after 2 years in, and is now making as much money as I do doing the same job I do. If I had actually payed for my college I'd be even more annoyed than I am at the idea I potentially wasted 4 years doing homework.

I think we should tell teens and future college students to major in something they -like-, not necessarily love, that has real world applications.

If you absolutely adore philosophy and can't imagine a life where you don't "do" philosophy, that's fine. Go to the library and check out books on philosophy. Read and study philosophy to your hearts desire. You don't need to pay a University an insane amount of money so that you can be bored in a classroom while a professor who doesn't really care about teaching drones on word-for-word on the same things you could have just read yourself.

I will go on my college rant in my next post...

[KillerGremlin]

I don't want to get too deeply into it, but here are my thoughts on college and the current school system. In bullet point/list form for easy consumption.

-Job/Work experience has been devalued by the perpetuated belief (which comes from the academic world) that you _NEED_ a college degree to be useful in the work environment

-The belief that Intelligence = "Good Grades/Success in school" has also been falsely perpetuated by the current academic world. Standardized tests, GPA, success in school = bullshit for being the "end all be all" determinant of intelligence.

-You should go to college because you are passionate about learning. This is where I disagree with the popular Internet sentiments. If you want to get a philosophy degree, or art degree, or music degree, then do it! This belief that only engineering degrees or business degrees are useful is total bullshit.

-Happiness is not measured by how much money you make. Many happy people went to college and got philosophy or art degrees. Likewise, success is not measured by your engineering degree. Look at most business tycoons, millionaires, entrepreneurs, or genius-to-CEO types. Most of them are college dropouts, didn't go to college, or took alternative education paths.

-The Administrators and Teachers in the world of academia KNOW THAT DEGREES DO NOT EQUAL JOBS. Colleges NEED to recruit kids. High school kids pay for colleges to fund research. It is no coincidence that colleges open their doors to just about anyone these days.

-Most people SHOULD NOT GO TO COLLEGE

-At one point, jobs like: cooking, interior design, and other craft jobs were highly valued without the attached BA or MA or whatever

-The market is flooded with people with college degrees, this is a problem.

-Academia is largely full of itself.

-It is hugely unfair to ask an 18 year old to map out their life, their passion, and their future career. Most 18 year olds should work for a few years, get some life experience, and then decide if they want to go to college. High schools push kids to pick a college because it is the expectation...this relationship is symbiotic. I believe that people who run the colleges encourage policy or advocacy that perpetuates the belief that high schools need to push kids into college. The net result is a cycle driven largely by money.


I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

That's like....75% of the people I know altered their course...
50% did so dramatically

I would also say that a lot of my friends who are graduating are in the position of: "I have a degree...now what the fuck do I do."

I happen to be in that boat too, with a largely useless (due to flooded market) psychology degree. Fortunately, I am passionate about psychology, and am passionate enough about what I learned in college to feel like I got something meaningful out of my education. I was also lucky enough to work at two real jobs during my college years, so I have real world work experience.

Instead of rushing off to the next degree mill, I am taking a year or two off to work and research graduate school. I intend to pursue a masters and possibly a PhD, but right now I am a bit burned out and want to get some more work experience, save some money, and enjoy being out of academia for a bit. By fall of 2012 I plan to be applying for grad school, but in the meantime I am applying the brakes.

This is turning into one of my most pointless, rambling posts yet...but I think the points I want to hit home are:

-We have devalued non-college jobs and non-college success
-College is not for everyone and academia is exploiting this
-The current structure for education has created degree mills, which in turn has devalued the arts

I, personally, would never tell someone who is very passionate about philosophy or art to avoid college. The reality is that some of the brightest, most interesting, and most seasoned people reside within academia. I have met some professors who have life-wisdom as well as field experience that is unparalleled. Books can certainly be enlightening, but your local library cannot rival the life story's or the experience of a seasoned faculty member. There was a point in time where it was understood that you go to college to get a degree because you are interested in learning more about that field of study. Nowadays people are no longer interested in learning, the new belief is that you get a degree because a degree=jobs. This is why we see a devaluing of the arts. Philosophy can be just as hard as engineering or physics, but the average Joe-slacker will have a much easier time doing minimal work in philosophy than engineering. This is just due to the nature of the redundancy checks built into the respective degrees. Engineering at face-value is much harder than philosophy. To say that someone who majored in philosophy could not invest as much time and work as someone who majored in engineering is fallacious.

At any rate, I make sleep now.

[manasecret]

I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

...

I happen to be in that boat too, with a largely useless (due to flooded market) psychology degree. Fortunately, I am passionate about psychology, and am passionate enough about what I learned in college to feel like I got something meaningful out of my education. I was also lucky enough to work at two real jobs during my college years, so I have real world work experience.


A debate about college and how necessary it is is great.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What??? Why is it you feel you can successfully navigate the system of going to college at age 18 and come out better on the other side, but that most people can not?

In this market, like it or not, a college degree is required for most decent paying jobs. Not all, I have personally seen many good ones that don't. But the vast majority do. And sure, you could be the next college drop-out billionaire. You could also be the next Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I find it dangerous to tell high school kids that college is unnecessary, only to have them find out in five years time that not having a degree blocks tons of doors, and at which point it is likely FAR more difficult to go start college for any number of reasons (debt, marriage, kids, etc.). Give them the same chance you had to go to college when it is logistically easiest, and then let them figure it out just like you did whether it is right for them.

If you want to change the system, fine, but don't ask high school kids to take the brunt of the risk to change the system for you.

[KillerGremlin]

A debate about college and how necessary it is is great.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What???

In this market, like it or not, a college degree is required for most decent paying jobs. Not all, I have personally seen many good ones that don't. But most. And sure, you could be the next college drop-out billionaire. You could also be the next Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I find it dangerous to tell high school kids that college is unnecessary, only to have them find out in five years time that not having a degree blocks tons of doors, and at which point it is likely FAR more difficult to go start college for any number of reasons (debt, marriage, kids, etc.).

If you want to change the system, fine, but don't ask high school kids to take the brunt of the risk to change the system for you.

That's fine and ethical and all, but what if we turn it around:

What if high school kids genuinely don't want to go to college, and we push them into it. I mean, all I am saying is their are two sides to this coin.

But unfortunately you are right...a lot of jobs require college degrees. I blame part of this partially on academia. I believe many people in a hiring position use a college degree as a redundancy check or as a quick screening method. Some jobs do require a degree though: doctors, engineers, etc.

I know I said in my previous post that most people should not go to college. Let me amend that by saying: most people should not rush to make the decision to run to college. Most people should let it stew for a year or two. I'm living proof of that.

In my experience high schools push a one-sided view: college or failure. High schools should be more open-minded and offer multiple paths and options to youth. And this is where we get into total education reform. Starting at the bottom, instead of having mandatory math and science classes, we could let people pursue natural interests early on. If the education system was reformed kids might know earlier on what they want to do instead of taking "crash course in college 101" at age 18 because they were stuck in a shitty system that essentially pigeon-holes everyone into a set of narrow expectations and tells them what makes them smart or stupid.

[manasecret]

That's fine and ethical and all, but what if we turn it around:

What if high school kids genuinely don't want to go to college, and we push them into it. I mean, all I am saying is their are two sides to this coin.

Then they continue on to get a job as if they had never gone to college, perhaps with some debt, but also with knowledge of the college system that they can use to better decide if they want to go back later.

I think that's the far better option then finding out later you need a degree, but that's it's much harder to go back and get one because you've now established your life.

[Professor S]

A debate about college and how necessary it is is great.

But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go.

What??? Why is it you feel you can successfully navigate the system of going to college at age 18 and come out better on the other side, but that most people can not?.

You confusing the value of a degree with the value of the education in the real world. I don't think anyone is arguing that a degree isn't valuable, in that is helps you get a decent job (something that is proving less and less true), or doesn't have perceived value with employers. In the current system, a college degree is necessary, but what we're arguing against is the current system and not the value of its outcomes.

Talk to most HR professionals and ask them about how they view college degrees, and most would answer "It shows that you can start something and finish it."

I'm still paying back school loans for THAT? The government gave me tax-payer subsidized grants for THAT? I could have shown that with an internship or apprenticeship and saved about $100,000. And the sad fact is that no one can understand this until after they graduate and enter the work force because the ONLY narrative offered in grade-school is "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR YOU ARE A FAILURE."

That is a lie, and an insidious one.

[Teuthida]

This hugely victim-blaming. But blaming the victim aside, if it was that easy then everyone would be getting straight As and getting out of their bad high school. There are family issues, lack of resources within the school district, and lack of speciality programs. The big issue these days is cutting extra-curriculars, like music or after-school programs. These have been shown to provide structure and support for youth, but in a fleeting economy these have been the first things to go. After-school programs aside, you still have the urban environment, the drugs, the lack of parental figures, the poverty, and a bunch of other issues that feed into the school environment. I believe in the "if you work hard good things will come for you" mentality, but the number of hurdles are astronomical and should be considered.

I omitted this from my post, but it's not just academics. There are a lot of schools where music, art, technology, etc. is the focus. I went to one such school (though you did need at least average grades for that one, but isn't always the case) So in addition to normal classes you have least three periods a day of your focus. Plus there a number of more vocational schools.


And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.



I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change.

That's like....75% of the people I know altered their course...
50% did so dramatically


I went to a liberal arts college at first majoring in biology though not sure what sort of career I wanted. I then attended a talk by returning alumni to see what happened to them after college. Not a single one out of the ten had a job even remotely related to their major. That freaked me out. I transferred to an art school the next year with the idea that it would at least prepare me for a career doing something I enjoyed.

So wrong...so very very wrong.

Art school is the most useless worthless thing you could possibly spend time and money on. I wish I stayed at my first college and just got a decent education and the full college experience . My BFA will never help in getting me an art related job. It'll be more helpful getting anything else, but art ones are purely based on your work. I taught myself more since I graduated with books and instructional videos (so much better being able to hand pick any teacher you want instead of being stuck with whatever the school happens to have) than I ever learned at school. I wasn't prepared in the slightest for the real world upon graduation. Should have dropped out but I felt like I needed the degree...and if I ever decide to do something other than art....I have my art degree for that. That's messed up.


Prof, I would be curious to hear how you imagine home-schooling through internet classes. Most students don't have the drive to learn on their own without adult supervision, and the fear of punishment and failure, unless they are truly passionate about a particular subject. And how young are you talking?

[Professor S]

Art school is the most useless worthless thing you could possibly spend time and money on. I wish I stayed at my first college and just got a decent education and the full coProf, I would be curious to hear how you imagine home-schooling through internet classes. Most students don't have the drive to learn on their own without adult supervision, and the fear of punishment and failure, unless they are truly passionate about a particular subject. And how young are you talking?

There has to be supervision, without a doubt. This is usually provided by a stay-at-home parent. Is that available to everyone? Of course not, but there is no one answer that works for everyone. This is why central control does not work, because it enforces a top-down, universal approach.

Home schooling, charter schools, smaller/community based and controlled public schools, etc. ALL need to be considered as part of a comprehensive solution. They offer increase opportunity and in most cases, increase educational choice to the family, to help our students reach proficiency.

And none of this can happen until the money follows the STUDENT and not the SCHOOL. Most funds are currently pushed to the schools, so there really little in the way of finding real options (I do not believe shuffling a student from one centrally controlled school to another is choice). These funds need to be allocated per student, and allow them to be applied to choice of school for each family, whether it is a home school, charter school, or already established public school (which will benefit greatly from a reduction in student population).

[KillerGremlin]

And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.

I may not get a chance to respond to this until after my last few finals and my move back home/graduation. So in case I don't get to this for a few days, you can simply look at Wikipedia. I mean, this is what I found under the article on Chicago Public Schools, this isn't even specifically about their success or lack thereof:

The April 21, 2006 issue of the Chicago Tribune revealed a study released by the Consortium on Chicago School Research that stated that 6 of every 100 CPS freshmen would earn a bachelor's degree by age 25. 3 in 100 black or Latino men would earn a bachelor's degree by age 25. The study tracked Chicago high school students who graduated in 1998 and 1999. 35% of CPS students who went to college earned their bachelor's degree within six years, below the national average of 64%.[2]

Chicago has a history of high dropout rates, with around half of students failing to graduate for the past 30 years. Criticism is directed at the CPS for inflating its performance figures. Through such techniques as counting students who swap schools before dropping out as transfers but not dropouts, it publishes graduation claims as high as 71%. Nonetheless, throughout the 1990s actual rates seem to have improved slightly, as true graduation estimates rose from 48% in 1991 to 54% in 2004.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Public_Schools#Performance

I don't have a "pretty specific" view of city life...I have a view of city life since I live in Chicago. I can't generalize to other cities, but I know Chicago is among the worst in the nation if not the worst in terms of public schools. I know Detroit and Minneapolis are right behind (I'm guessing with St. Louis and Indianapolis and all the other main sites that I read about for Teach for America, a program which I no longer look all that positively on), and these are just cities...a lot of these problems extend to rural areas.

I can find more specific articles and studies and I will, but I encourage you to google around. I think your view does not generalize as easily as you think.

[Bond]

I think the above issue also has to do with an increase in the number of harmful exposures, such as lead, mercury, and noise pollution, in an urban environment as well. Reference this study:

- Bridge Apartment Study, NYC, 1973
- Income restrictions
- All children attended same school
- Measures: reading test, auditory word discrimination
- Control for: parental education, # of siblings
- Floor of residence correlated with scores

http://htcexperiments.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gissen_exhaust.pdf

[KillerGremlin]

And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town.

Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change.

I dug up some hard numbers, just for fun, and oddly 2006 statistics report that New York city's largest school district had lower graduation rates than Chicago's largest school district. I haven't really dissected the statistics because I am lazy and at this point I don't want to invest too much time into this thread, but before I post any statistics let me piss into the wind for a minute.

I attended the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). I was involved in Psychology, Gender and Women Studies and Education. Those were the 3 areas where I probed the most. I actually did a work study with a national Chicago based organization, so I extended my classroom experience a bit and got involved with some large scale educational gatherings. "Fixing" the Chicago Public School system is something that many people are working on. People literally dedicate their lives and careers to this issue. People get PhDs in school management or urban settings and work to try to bring resolution to the CPS problem. I cannot emphasis how many people have dedicated their lives to this issue. The take-home point here is that I am feeble and this is just a forum thread. I can highlight where there are deficits or inequities, I can point to problems, but I certainly cannot fix them.

Suggesting that if someone wants to succeed they need to work harder or attend a different school doesn't provide a very tangible solution to this issue. In the CPS, you are talking about an annual graduation rate of around 50%. The problem is large, it is systemic...and telling kids to go to different schools would literally displace thousands of kids. At this point we are talking about large scale social issues, things that are deeply imbedded and have a history. Like Prof S showed with the social welfare stuff, a lot of this is policy that goes way back. Back to immigration, early Chicago, and early racism.

So some stats:

I'm pulling these numbers from the Chicago Public Schools Office of Performance website. If you'd like to check the info feel free to browse here:
http://research.cps.k12.il.us/cps/accountweb/Reports/allschools.html

Anyway, according to the stats released by CPS, in 2010 55.8% of students graduated high school, with 41.1% dropping out. That is actually an improvement from previous years.

Looking at the College enrollment fact sheet: “54.4% of CPS 2009 graduates enrolled in college – an increase of 1.9 percentage points from 2008.” There has been an increase in college enrollment for the past 5 years – a good thing. In 2009, 10,249 CPS graduates enrolled in college in 2009, which is an all time high for CPS.

Consider this: in 2009 there were 18,846 CPS graduates: 10,249 were enrolled in college, or 54.4%.
54.4% of graduates enrolling into college…isn’t bad right?

Before we look at things from a race perspective, we should frame these graduation and dropout rates compared to the national average.

2003-2004 stats reveal that, on average, CPS has higher dropout rates than the outlying schools as well as the national average:
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/uploadedImages/News/Chicago/Images/Urban/Graduation%20Rates.jpg

The good news is that graduation rates in Chicago are rising…
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/uploadedImages/News/Chicago/Images/Urban/Graph2.jpg

So seemingly, it is not all doom and gloom…on the other hand, in 2009, only 48.1% of African American males and 59.5% of AA females enrolled in college…only 43.2% Latino males and 49.4% Latino females enrolled…

By the way, and oddly enough, according to this article from 2006, in the largest school districts, New York has a lower graduation rate than Chicago does…
http://i.imgur.com/KqkZC.jpg
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm

So evidently New York could be just as fucked up in certain areas.

Back to Chicago…

OF 100 CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOL FRESHMEN,
SIX WILL GET A COLLEGE DEGREE
Of every 100 freshmen entering a Chicago public high school, only about six will earn a bachelor's degree by the time they're in their mid-20s, according to a first-of-its-kind study released Thursday by the Consortium on Chicago School Research.

The prospects are even worse for African-American and Latino male freshmen, who only have about a 3 percent chance of obtaining a bachelor's degree by the time they're 25.

The study, which tracked Chicago high school students who graduated in 1998 and 1999, also found that making it to college doesn't ensure success: Of the city public school students who went to a four-year college, only about 35 percent earned a bachelor's degree within six years, compared with 64 percent nationally.

...
- African-American and Latino students from Chicago high schools have the lowest graduation rates--lower than the national average for those groups and lower than their white and Asian peers from Chicago. Just 22 percent of African-American males who began at a four-year college graduated within six years.
....

http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/news_citations/042106_chicagotribune.html

So while there is an increase in College enrollment, and while around 50+% do enroll into college, the graduation rates are HORRIFIC.

According to the US Census Bureau, in 2008 71.8% of Bachelor degrees were earned by White people, 9.8% by black, 7.9% by Hispanic, and 7.0% by Asian. That’s a national number, btw, so when you stack that up to say…the 6 out of 100 people who get a degree who attended CPS…I mean the numbers are harrowing.


These are just the graduation and college RATES. These don’t even touch the social problems. Like the kids who see gang violence.

I guess in my next post I can link to all the Chicago gangs, the crime rates by area/neighborhood, and I can link to articles discussing mortality rates among CPS attendees.

I also propose several solutions that may or may not be steps in the right direction to fixing some of these issues:
1) More parent involvement
2) Longer school days and better school programs
3) Decriminalizing drugs like Marijuana and Crack
4) Figuring out how to tackle the anti-white feelings towards education within the Black community
5) Fixing Affirmative Action and Social Welfare