No mohammed discussion?

[KillerGremlin]

So I'm amazed...but here's the chain of events.

South Park is going to air controversial episode with Mohammed. Angry radical Muslims make threats involving airplanes or something, Comedy Central airs censored version of episode:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2110092420100422?type=marketsNews
Satirical animated TV show "South Park" beeped out the words Prophet Muhammad and plastered its Wednesday episode with the word "CENSORED" after being issued a grim warning by a U.S. Muslim group.

The irreverent comedy show on Comedy Central also substituted a controversial image seen last week of the Prophet Muhammad in a bear outfit with one of Santa Claus in the same costume.

Pissed off radical Muslims still decide they are going to target Comedy Central after airing censored version:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/19/security-brief-radical-islamic-web-site-takes-on-south-park/
The posting on Revolutionmuslim.com says: “We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.”

Matt Stone and Trey Parker respond:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/news/3878
A Statement from Matt and Trey

In the 14 years we've been doing South Park we have never done a show that we couldn't stand behind. We delivered our version of the show to Comedy Central and they made a determination to alter the episode. It wasn't some meta-joke on our part. Comedy Central added the bleeps. In fact, Kyle's customary final speech was about intimidation and fear. It didn't mention Muhammad at all but it got bleeped too. We'll be back next week with a whole new show about something completely different and we'll see what happens to it.

John Stewart responds:
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/jon-stewart-takes-on-comedy-centrals-censorship-of-south-park/
Mr. Stewart said Comedy Central had probably censored the “South Park” episode to protect its employees “from possible harmful repercussions.” “Although,” he added, “after forcing many of these same employees to work on ‘Mind of Mencia’ and ‘Krod Mandoon,’ damage done. But again, they sign the checks.”

And today, on Digg:

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0424/seattle-cartoonist-promotes-everybody-draw-mohammed-day/
As a snarky response to Muslim bloggers who "warned" Comedy Central about an episode of South Park showing the Prophet Mohammed wearing a bear suit, one Seattle cartoonist, who calls laughter her form of "prayer," is asking artists all over the world to create depictions of Mohammed on May 20, then submit the images to a Facebook page she set up.

SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, this is America. Why are we letting radical Muslims win?

[Vampyr]

We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.

Right. How some people's minds work really astounds me.

[Angrist]

Yay, Theo van Gogh, the most famous Dutchman in America. :(

[Typhoid]

SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, this is America. Why are we letting radical Muslims win?

Yeah, because no Muslims live in any other country than the "Middle East".

Maybe it's because there are 1.7 billion of them, being roughly a quarter of the entire world population.


And regardless - it's worth pulling because it's blasphemous to their religion.
Does the fact that "This is America" change blasphemy? Fuck no.
I'm pretty sure if an Islamic show depicted Jesus as part rabbit, and half chocolate, and giving a thumbs up on the cross while being depicted as being a brown Jew, there would be a little bit of a huff over it.

The main problem is nobody chooses to understand other religions. Showing Mohammad is blasphemous to Islam, and Muslims. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

The problem with this specific scenario isn't that it's getting attention. It's that it's getting attention for them doing it now. 9 years ago they had Mohammad on an episode called "Super Best Friends" and depicted the shit out of him.

[DarkMaster]

South Park always does extremely controversial and offensive stuff and then backs it all up with an intelligent message at the end of the episode. Kind of a way of saying "the jokes on you", in a sense it's only offensive because we've let it become offensive, or something to that extent. Anyways, maybe some topics are best left untouched... and then maybe that's the point they were trying to make. I don't know.

[Teuthida]

Not going to participate. Why offend over a billion people to get at a handful of extremists?

Now if I knew who these fellows were I'd gladly draw them in a conga line of sodomization boozing it up with a very happy pig bringing up the rear.

Although I am tempted to draw a dude who could pass for Mohammed and have a word balloon saying something like "Hi, my name's Bob. Not really sure what I'm doing here. I got in this long line and wasn't clear what it was for. Are we going to watch Avatar?"

[manasecret]

Yeah, because no Muslims live in any other country than the "Middle East".

Maybe it's because there are 1.7 billion of them, being roughly a quarter of the entire world population.


And regardless - it's worth pulling because it's blasphemous to their religion.
Does the fact that "This is America" change blasphemy? Fuck no.
I'm pretty sure if an Islamic show depicted Jesus as part rabbit, and half chocolate, and giving a thumbs up on the cross while being depicted as being a brown Jew, there would be a little bit of a huff over it.

The main problem is nobody chooses to understand other religions. Showing Mohammad is blasphemous to Islam, and Muslims. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

The problem with this specific scenario isn't that it's getting attention. It's that it's getting attention for them doing it now. 9 years ago they had Mohammad on an episode called "Super Best Friends" and depicted the shit out of him.

Are you being honest or kidding again? South Park rips on Jesus all the time.

[Teuthida]

The difference is in Islam you aren't allowed to depict Mohammed whereas in Christianity this is perfectly fine:

http://www.am-church.com/images/devon/13975.jpg

Since you're allowed to show Jesus doing whatever who's to say what's blasphemous or not?

[manasecret]

Yeah, I consider showing Jesus at all to be blasphemous. So therefore, it's ok for me to threaten you with violence.

I guess we shouldn't make fun of Tom Cruise and Scientology, because they consider it blasphemous.

I guess no one should say anything bad about the flying spaghetti monsters, because that would be blasphemy.

I mean, what a shit ton of bullshit. Free speech is free speech.

EDIT: And I'm not talking about South Park simply showing Jesus. I mean, South Park full on rips on Jesus, and pretty much every episode with him I think most devout Christians would consider blasphemous.

[Teuthida]

Since every church (that I'm aware of) has a image of Jesus in some form then you would be an exception to the rule.

Scientology is different since it's the actual organized religion that does horrible things.

Again, this case is a group of extremists.

Is every Christian part of the Westboro Baptist Church and should be treated as such?

EDIT in response to your edit: Are there any hard and fast rules on what is considered blasphemous regarding the depiction of Jesus? I honestly don't know very much about either religion. I know in Judaism you aren't suppose to depict the human form (actually learned this in book parodying the life of Jesus which I only read the beginning of) and Jesus was upset by the Roman statues. Not having idols and whatnot.

[manasecret]

Since every church (that I'm aware of) has a image of Jesus in some form then you would be an exception to the rule.

Scientology is different since it's the actual organized religion that does horrible things.

Again, this case is a group of extremists.

Is every Christian part of the Westboro Baptist Church and should be treated as such?

Scientology is different because it does horrible things? Can I refer you to the Pope? And, I dunno, 2000 years of history?

I am not saying be hateful of Muslims, but poking fun at them is legitimate free speech, and silencing free speech with the threat of violence should be completely condemned. I think the only thing that would make the violence go away is to make images of Mohammad so common that it no longer is a big deal.

[Teuthida]

There you go. Catholicism as well.

Just was trying to make a point that there isn't some head of Islam instigating these attacks.

Do whatever. I try to be respectful.

[manasecret]

As far as what is considered blasphemy, I think it's completely subjective. Which means every single person could have their own definition of what is blasphemy or not. Which is also why I think it's bullshit to use the blasphemy excuse to censor things. Anyone at any time could consider anything blasphemy. Does that mean we shouldn't say or do what they consider blasphemy? Obviously not.

[Teuthida]

As far as what is considered blasphemy, I think it's completely subjective. Which means every single person could have their own definition of what is blasphemy or not. Which is also why I think it's bullshit to use the blasphemy excuse to censor things. Anyone at any time could consider anything blasphemy. Does that mean we shouldn't say or do what they consider blasphemy? Obviously not.

Subjective in Christianity maybe. But there is a strict rule of not depicting the human form in Islam.

I don't agree with Comedy Central censoring South Park. Nobody should ever be censored. South Park aims to insult everyone and Islam shouldn't be excluded. They usually have a message behind it anyway.

I was disagreeing with the blogger cartoonist. That just seemed like an attack gathering a bunch of non-Muslims to draw pictures and tell a whole religion to shove it. Feels like hate crime.

[manasecret]

My opinion is that, strict rule or not, what is blasphemy is or was made up by someone somewhere out of the blue.

And I see what you're saying, but I think the blogger et al have a message, too. Free speech and freedom from threat of violence and against censorship and all that.

[Teuthida]

Gotta agree with that. Humans are funny creatures. Different things are real to different people.

Curious to see what comes of this experiment. Just won't be participating myself.

[magus113]

The real way things should probably go is that it's not the collective religious community as a whole that determines what's blasphemous, but an individual in said religious community.

I mean, when I was practicing Catholicism in school I saw Buddy Christ and I thought it was pretty funny, but I'm sure someone found it offensive too (not just because of the movie he was being portrayed in). Someone has to be up in arms about those "Jesus is my Homeboy" t-shirts too.

[Dylflon]

Here's part of a presentation I did about Islam and the Image that might drop some knowledge bombs:

In his article Islam and the Image, Salah Stetie provides some foregrounding that helps explain Islam's mistrust of representational images and why Islam historically forbids pictorial representation of human beings and other living things. Of importance are the metaphysical ideas which Muslims use to understand time. Stetie explains that Muslims do not view time as sequential but rather as a succession of moments without shape or continuity. In addition, the shapes that we see are merely temporary combinations of atoms that will inevitably change or pass away. In Islam, the only permanent being is God. To create an image such as a painting goes against these basic principles as the artist that paints a human being, creates a figure whose permanence exceeds that of man and gains an unnatural longevity as well as potentially cements a moment in time. This attempt at permanence could be read as an affront to God.

Also problematic for orthodox Muslims is the act of creation inherent in artistic practices. In creating representational forms that could potentially go on to influence people to think or do certain things, artists put themselves on the same level as God, and moreover, in creating representational images, these artists are mimicking God's very creations.

The other issue of images for Islam is historical, since images were the chief tools of polytheists. Pagans worshipped idols and images that were representative of their various Gods, and it is this practice that explains Islam's aversion to such images and objects. As we saw in The Message, monotheism could not truly and finally take root until these idols were destroyed. In such a rudimentary society, it is not unreasonable to fear the power of the image especially with the pagan tradition as a testament to such power. In order to ensure that these created figures did not divert the faithful from prayer, idolatry had to be done away with.

Understandably, this has had a major and lasting impact on art in the Muslim world. Since most arts were originally inherited from idolatry, Islamic religions don't do much in the way of nurturing them. That of course is not to say that there is no Muslim art, as art was not outright prohibited. However, what art did exist conformed to Muslim principles and artists were forced to find ways of not arousing the ire of the Islamic community. For example, in order to emphasize that God is the only permanent thing in the universe, Muslim art places an emphasis on change. And as not to imitate the creator, the rule among much of art forbids representation of live figures. If artists wanted to draw or sculpt animals or people, they would have to do things like behead or maim them so that they were not representing something capable of life. Though it seems strange that painting a beheaded dog would be more acceptable than a painting of a normal one. In carpet weaving or on coats of arms, artists would adorn their art with made up creatures such as gryphons or phoenixes, since nobody could argue that these were actual living things. Another practice was to make animals resemble flowers which incidentally like other plant life were less contested when illustrated. This is most likely because as Ryder mentioned earlier, plants have less symbolic power than beings with living spirits.

However, bathhouses had the rare privilege of being allowed to house paintings with representational figures since “in the eyes of orthodox Muslims, that part of the house is too despicable for a painting to lend itself to the slightest equivocation, [or] the smallest spiritual danger”.

One is left to wonder though why this aversion to images continues despite the fact that monotheism has clearly prevailed over pagan faiths and the thought of worshipping a statue is not one that would readily enter one's mind.

Some believe that these rules come from the Koran. There is a saying of the Prophet to the effect that “on the day of resurrection, painters will be the men to suffer most.”
But this saying came about at a time when “painting was conceived only for the purposes of entertainment or adoration” and was most likely aimed entirely at idolatry and not our current conceptions of artistic practice. In fact, according to Stetie, the Koran says nothing definitive on the subject. The most likely reason why this condemnation of representational art continued was because of the literal interpretation of certain Koran passages by spiritual leaders or through those leaders' own imposed rules.

However, one rule that seems to be undisputed amongst Muslims is that the prophet Muhammad is not to be depicted in any way, the central concern being that people would begin to worship Muhammad through images and focus less on God and his message. This is especially important given Muhammad's teachings which state that he is nothing more than a man chosen by God to spread his message and is not to be put above any other man. However, the relationship between how Muhammad wishes to be perceived and how he is portrayed creates an unintended issue. Or rather, I should say in the way he is not portrayed. It could become difficult to perceive Muhammad as simply a man when an entire religion insists that he nor his family members can never be depicted. Nobody can gain a sense of the things that made him like other men. If there were a picture depicting Muhammad as an old frail man (as he undoubtedly was before passing on), people would be able to gain an understanding of his mortality. However, in being unable to see him and hearing him referred to as a Prophet could easily cause people to perceive him not only as more than just a man, but also a man who is above other men. Although this train of thought may be irrelevant since there are a million pictures of Jesus looking like some hippy and much of the western world accepts him as God or at the very least as someone who has godly magic powers. These issues of representation become especially complex when one tries to make a film about Muhammad.

By and large, cinema has faced far less opposition than other art forms. Part of this must be because as it is an art form created in more contemporary and progressive times, a modern Muslim understands that films will not necessarily draw worship away from God. Additionally, films are incapable of fulfilling the role of the idol since as a simple object, the film reel has no inherent power. In contrast to all other image based art forms, film does not stop a static moment in time, and therefore does not contrast with the Muslim feelings about permanence. Film actually keeps in line with Islamic artistic practice which focuses on change. The image on the film screen is constantly changing, each frame flickering for a fraction of a second before disappearing. Films also showcase the fickleness of living beings and fate as in some films we see things and people deteriorate, thus highlighting the impermanence of man and object alike. To take it a step further, film itself even deteriorates, so what's not to like? Film also avoids the pitfall of artists putting themselves on the same level as God in terms of creation. The filmmaker is not creating their own representations of living things, but rather capturing the things that God has already created. For these reasons, cinema is a very useful artistic tool for Islam, especially since as Charkawi says in his article, “the cinema is the most readily understood and most persuasive of all idioms of art”. From there it's a short step to conclude that cinema would be the perfect tool to spread the story of Islam. Yet, this is difficult as even film is not exempt from the prohibition on images of Muhammad.

How does one even go about portraying a religion in film, that refuses the portrayal of most of the key figures in its foundation? For many years, one simply didn't. Several attempts at films about the life of the Prophet were made prior to the release of the message, but were met with swift and raucous opposition. In 1925, Wada Orfy, a Turkish writer, attempted to make a film about Muhammad that would depict the Prophet and was tried in court as a result. Italian and American companies attempted co-productions with Egypt to make religious films dealing with the life of the Prophet and despite willing to accept all conditions of censorship, were still denied. This opposition is understandable, since not only would a film that depicted Muhammad have to be dealt with very delicately, it would somehow have to not offend millions of Muslims who firmly believe that Muhammad is not to be depicted.

However, as we know, a very well-received film about the life of Muhammad was eventually made. The Message, released in 1976 was a successful Islamic religious film as director Moustapha Akkad, out of respect chose not to represent Muhammad or any of his wives, children, sons in law, or his Caliphs who are all also representationally off-limits. Akkad is able to lovingly craft the tale of Islam's birth, using powerful and beautiful images. The closest we come to a representation of any of these figures is the Caliph Ali's sword being swung about in a duel. Though, while this film does not seem to break any of the rules that would cause one to oppose it, issues in the representation of Muhammad still seem to arise. In any scene where Muhammad's presence is absolutely necessary, we see a shot from Muhammad's point of view. This is a great work-around since it avoids depiction of the Prophet, however, to react to Muhammad, the other characters look right into the camera making myself, Ryder, and possibly others keenly aware that the fourth wall is being broken and that we as the audience are sitting in place of the Prophet. Allow us to play these clips for you and see if you feel any of the unease that we felt.

This may seem like a nit-picky argument, however I feel that if one were to read into it, they could be just as offended if not more offended by putting someone in the place of Muhammad, than by representing him in a picture. We have another clip for you which highlights our other concern.

The other issue we uncovered is that of the non-present voice of Muhammad. Granted, portraying Muhammad's voice is also incredibly taboo, but putting the words of the Prophet into the mouths of other characters compounds a problem that stems from making a movie about a person you cannot see; a person who like God himself, and unlike man, is invisible. By erasing the key person of interest from the film and putting his words in other people's mouths, one runs the risk of turning those characters into the leads in the Prophet's story. However, as we've learned, there is no problem-free way to make a film or any other art about Muhammad. The best that can be done is try to tell the story of his life as honestly as possible and let the narrative overshadow the borderline-absurd exclusion of the protagonist. Despite these problems, The Message is a success, since we can learn about Islam and enjoy the glorious irony of a depiction of Islam doing away with depictions in the name of God.

How far has the image come since the founding of Islam and does it still require censorship within Muslim communities? The main reason for prohibition of certain images has not been an issue for a long time. In much of the world, monotheism has long since conquered Pagan idolatry and polytheism. Additionally, art means different things now than it did then and art is created for different reasons. In a time when art was made for only entertainment and worship, there are understandable desires to limit the power of the image. Now, however, the image is largely not for recreating God's creations that we see every day. We have abstract art, art we use to express ourselves, and to understand the world a little better. Children grow up completely surrounded by images. Representational art is everywhere. This normality must surely signify a decline in the power of the image. As Bergson tells us, the life of the image and therefore its power, is dictated by the audience that views it. When an image is exposed to a society that believes very firmly that certain images hold a lot of power, their thoughts and reactions will dictate the desire of that image and decide exactly how powerful the image is.


------



We also showed the famous Dutch picture of Muhammed and posed the theory that a pictorial representation of Muhammed only exists because you label it as a picture of Muhammed. If one were not to label it, it would only be a picture of an Arab man since there is no historical pictorial reference to base a Muhammed illustration on.

[KillerGremlin]

Man, Dylflon, after reading your post I can only conclude that Muslims are on the same wavelength of retarded as Scientologists. Seriously, even Christians aren't this batshit insane.

Again, what does trying to please a bunch of radical Muslims have to do with my right to free speech or my right to make a joke?

South Park has ripped on just about every other religion, that is what they do. I mean they feature Jesus packing heat! The fact is it is a comedy show and I don't consider it blasphemous at all. I think forfeiting our basic 1st Amendment rights to please others is against the spirit of what this country stands for. I realize Comedy Central is a TV Network and censorship is rampant on TV, but it is still a defeat.

So maybe it worked out for Matt and Trey, because either way they proved with this whole fiasco that radical Muslims are crazy.

[Typhoid]

Again, what does trying to please a bunch of radical Muslims have to do with my right to free speech or my right to make a joke?

Because it's against their religion, and you are not part of that religion.
It's like 'the n word', when anyone other than some black guy says it.

It's a culture difference.
You have to understand a few things first of all.
They do not really have Free Speech in all places. Free Speech isn't a Universal luxury, so that doesn't matter one single bit in this.
Secondly, it is against their religion to depict Mohammad at all. Is it silly? Sure. But is it their religion? Fuck yes it is.
They have an entirely different culture than we do in North America.
Imagine we are back a few hundred years, and someone is just hardcore slagging on Jesus, I'm pretty sure Zealots wouldn't just go "Muslims can say what they want about Jesus, Freedom of Speech". I'm pretty sure if that happened now Zealots wouldn't do that.
Some Muslims also are strict on other things pertaining to religion. Extremists whip and beat those who are beardless. Women who wear bras are also whipped and beaten.

The reason they take the blasphemy of Mohammad so serious is that in their ancient religious writings it clearly states that not only is depicting the Prophet Mohammad as blasphemous, But it says that The Prophet Mohammad calls for the killing of several people who were mocking him to be killed - and they were killed by an Angel.

And honestly, I actually agree with the ruling to an extent. While it can be funny (in situations like this), once Mohammad is depicted, and no verbal outcry happens, more shows/cartoons could depict Mohammad, which would ridiculously cheapen his image, and meaning to Islam. Not to mention Christianity seems to be AOK with blasphemy against their own prophet, but that doesn't mean every other religion should ease up and stick their leader on T-Shirts and bobble heads just to sell a few units. They've kept the integrity of their religion in tact (minus the extremists who kill in his name, but that's a much different topic, and happens in roughly every religion) and they don't want to lose that. I can not only understand where they are coming from with that, but somewhat agree.

[KillerGremlin]

Because it's against their religion, and you are not part of that religion.
It's like 'the n word', when anyone other than some black guy says it.

It's a culture difference.
You have to understand a few things first of all.
They do not really have Free Speech in all places. Free Speech isn't a Universal luxury, so that doesn't matter one single bit in this.
Secondly, it is against their religion to depict Mohammad at all. Is it silly? Sure. But is it their religion? Fuck yes it is.
They have an entirely different culture than we do in North America.
Imagine we are back a few hundred years, and someone is just hardcore slagging on Jesus, I'm pretty sure Zealots wouldn't just go "Muslims can say what they want about Jesus, Freedom of Speech". I'm pretty sure if that happened now Zealots wouldn't do that.
Some Muslims also are strict on other things pertaining to religion. Extremists whip and beat those who are beardless. Women who wear bras are also whipped and beaten.

The reason they take the blasphemy of Mohammad so serious is that in their ancient religious writings it clearly states that not only is depicting the Prophet Mohammad as blasphemous, But it says that The Prophet Mohammad calls for the killing of several people who were mocking him to be killed - and they were killed by an Angel.

And honestly, I actually agree with the ruling to an extent. While it can be funny (in situations like this), once Mohammad is depicted, and no verbal outcry happens, more shows/cartoons could depict Mohammad, which would ridiculously cheapen his image, and meaning to Islam. Not to mention Christianity seems to be AOK with blasphemy against their own prophet, but that doesn't mean every other religion should ease up and stick their leader on T-Shirts and bobble heads just to sell a few units. They've kept the integrity of their religion in tact (minus the extremists who kill in his name, but that's a much different topic, and happens in roughly every religion) and they don't want to lose that. I can not only understand where they are coming from with that, but somewhat agree.

You do realize you are defending a religion based on a deity with no factual evidence to back it up? There is no proof, none, nada, zilch proving the existence of Allah. More so, the Jury is still up on whether Jesus existed and I assume the same goes for Mohammad.

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes? In fact, I'm starting a new religion called KillerGremlinism. I don't approve of depictions of Monkeys, because the great Gremlin Monkey Prophet is timeless. Therefore you need to remove your avatar from this forum because it falsely portrays my prophet. Also, if you don't change your avatar I'm flying a plane into your house!

[Typhoid]

You do realize you are defending a religion based on a deity with no factual evidence to back it up? There is no proof, none, nada, zilch proving the existence of Allah. More so, the Jury is still up on whether Jesus existed and I assume the same goes for Mohammad.

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes?



There's no proof of a God, either - and I'd defend that in this situation.
I'm not saying there is proof of Allah; therefore we're not allowed to make fun of Mohammad.

I'm saying 1.something billion people believe in the existence of Allah, and the Prophet Mohammad. Even more so there are extremists within that religion who take the depiction of Mohammad (much like it says in their religious scriptures) very seriously.

Religion has transcended proof, facts, and actual people existing. As long as enough people believe in it, it's real for them - and that's all that matters.

And just because Christianity, North America and the UK are alright with Buddy Christ, and putting Jesus on everything from a shirt to a sock to an apron, that doesn't mean every religion does.
When's the last time you saw a Buddha bobblehead giving someone a high five? (I'd love to see that, for the record).

The reason I'm defending Islam, is because A) Many, many people unjustly talk shit about it B) I believe in not insulting other people, nor their religions blatently. The problem here isn't Islam. Nor is the problem Muslims in general. The problem is the extremists. The Muslim equivalent of: Southerners when it comes to blacks, old Catholic ladies when it comes to Catholicism and Zealots.

Having Mohammad on South Park is alright. He's been on before. There was no uproar. He was just a dude.

But having Mohammad in a Bear Costume with a blue jersey that says "Bears" on it - you have to tell me that that wouldn't be a little blasphemous to someone who has no humour when it comes to his or her religion.

Also, "I don't think it's real" is pointless in this conversation. Why you'd say it is ridiculous.

Edit to your edit:

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes? In fact, I'm starting a new religion called KillerGremlinism. I don't approve of depictions of Monkeys, because the great Gremlin Monkey Prophet is timeless. Therefore you need to remove your avatar from this forum because it falsely portrays my prophet. Also, if you don't change your avatar I'm flying a plane into your house!

If you had a thousands of year old text depicting those magical unicorns spreading positive messages, and had billions of followers (maybe even if you had millions) - yes, I'd respect that. But since you're just some dude over the internet in the middle of what I assume to be the United States who wants to slag on Islam because a cartoon can't make fun of someone's religion and you just started caring about this situation a few days ago when you saw it on the internet, no - I wouldn't respect your religion.

[Typhoid]

I have a mission for you, Angels.
If you don't believe in the power of blasphemy, take some of these pictures, print them off - and hand them out at a Catholic or Christian church.


http://ozatheist.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/deflowersigned.jpg

http://goodluckwithallthat.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/funny-jesus.jpg

http://img2.visualizeus.com/thumbs/08/09/02/atheism,funny,jesus,poster,religion,stupid-3d5472d1118af053d3ca5b4f08464d1c_h.jpg

Are they funny? Sure, sort of. But shown to the wrong people I'm pretty sure you'd have a fun time.

[KillerGremlin]

I'm saying 1.something billion people believe in the existence of Allah, and the Prophet Mohammad. Even more so there are extremists within that religion who take the depiction of Mohammad (much like it says in their religious scriptures) very seriously.

So what? If 1 billion people are wrong in their belief does that make it okay? If thousands of Christians genuinely believed the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe, would that belief be okay? What 1 billion wrong people believe has no implication on my right to free speech. Even if a part of those billion people live in the very country whose Constitution clearly states freedom of speech.

Religion has transcended proof, facts, and actual people existing. As long as enough people believe in it, it's real for them - and that's all that matters.
Again, that's total bullshit. See: world is flat.

But having Mohammad in a Bear Costume with a blue jersey that says "Bears" on it - you have to tell me that that wouldn't be a little blasphemous to someone who has no humour when it comes to his or her religion.

Sure, it is blasphemous to the person who has no humor. So what? That's the point of freedom of Speech. To piss off people who have no humor, and to entertain people who do have humor. :lolz:

Also, "I don't think it's real" is pointless in this conversation. Why you'd say it is ridiculous.

It is relevant to this conversation because you brought up the word Nigger. Let us not forget that not too long ago South Park had an episode about that Nigger guy. And it didn't offend anyone (or anyone I know). In fact, it was hilarious! Actually, I'm not sure how that ties with the real thing. I just wanted to mention that South Park had an episode on the N-word.

I think "realness" ties into my point below though, which is you walk a fine line when you defend someone's fictional* belief.

*fictional, or until proven otherwise

If you had a thousands of year old text depicting those magical unicorns spreading positive messages, and had billions of followers (maybe even if you had millions) - yes, I'd respect that. But since you're just some dude over the internet in the middle of what I assume to be the United States who wants to slag on Islam because a cartoon can't make fun of someone's religion and you just started caring about this situation a few days ago when you saw it on the internet, no - I wouldn't respect your religion.

You're walking a fine line deciding whose beliefs are important. It's all or nothing buddy, especially in the spirit of the United States Constitution and the 1st Amendment (which is what this thread was kind of about). If we are going to defend the belief of some magical Muslim prophet guy because 1 million people have their religion, then you better be prepared to defend my belief in purple fairies or gay unicorns or whatever it is I want to believe in.


Also, I think you're missing the point. I'm not slagging on Islam. I'm slagging on Muslim extremists who are lashing out at people who want to parody religion. In case you missed the year 2010, every other person who practices every other religion besides Islam (with the exception of extremists and clergy) is okay with parody of religion. If they don't like it they don't watch it, or they have a sense of humor about it. I think the spirit of this thread has been that just because you are offended by something said, that does not give you the right to lash out with violent threats or violence. Why not make fun back? Or have a laugh? Or have a beer and sex? Oh wait...

[KillerGremlin]

When's the last time you saw a Buddha bobblehead giving someone a high five? (I'd love to see that, for the record).

Buddha says, high five!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1060/828402411_dbce327107.jpg?v=0

:D

[manasecret]

Typh, so your basis of what is a legitimate religion is how old it is and how many followers it has?

And again, so do you think it's ok to insult Tom Cruise and Scientology?

But why does someone somewhere considering something blasphemy make it ok to silence speech with threat of violence?

[Typhoid]

So what? If 1 billion people are wrong in their belief does that make it okay?

The fact they don't want Mohammad depicted is wrong? Who are you to dictate what another religion should deem good or bad?


If thousands of Christians genuinely believed the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe, would that belief be okay?

Hundreds of years ago, yes. That would be perfect.


What 1 billion wrong people has no implication on my right to free speech. Even if a part of those billion people live in the very country whose Constitution clearly states freedom of speech.


Firs toff, I assume you're meaning there are Muslims in the US. There are. 0.2% of the world's population of Muslims live in the US.
Secondly, you have no right to say which religion is wrong, and which is right. In this case (The case of Mohammad not being depicted) technically, they are right. Mohammad isn't allowed to be depicted. It says so in their religion. So realistically, South Park, and those defending it are in the wrong.





Sure, it is blasphemous to the person who has no humor. So what? That's the point of freedom of Speech.
No it's not, it's equality. Not anger and hate.


It is relevant to this conversation because you brought up the word Nigger. Let us not forget that not too long ago South Park had an episode about that Nigger guy. And it didn't offend anyone (or anyone I know). In fact, it was hilarious!

I'm pretty sure you could find a handful of black people who didn't like the 'Nigger Guy' episode, which is the same as this. But I assume you'd try and tell those black people they're wrong for not wanting white people to say the word 'Nigger'.




You're walking a fine line deciding whose beliefs are important. It's all or nothing buddy

Everyone's. I'm saying EVERYONES beliefs are important (to that person). That DOES NOT give anyone else the right to poke fun (when they know damn well it won't be taken lightly) at any other religion. Slight jokes are great. If you don't think I'm about equality in religion, check out the Catholicism thread, because I was defending the shit out of that. Take a lifelong Italian Catholic, and stick them in a room with some 20-something Muslims who are depicting some dude giving it to Virgin Mary, and I don't think it would be a "OH, this is hilarious! I love your artwork" type of situation.


I'm slagging on Muslim extremists who are lashing out at people who want to parody religion. In case you missed the year 2010, every other person who practices every other religion besides Islam (with the exception of extremists and clergy) is okay with parody of religion.

Different Culture.


But why does someone somewhere considering something blasphemy make it ok to silence speech with threat of violence?

Mana, I never adressed the violence part of this, nor did I obviously agree with it.

I'm trying to get the point across that A) Freedom of Speech is not universal B) The Middle East in general has a VERY different culture - at least amongst the extremists. They aren't as relaxed as we are about shit like this.

Personally, I don't think it's good to make fun of anyone's religion. Or any religion for that matter. It's always going to be a serious topic, and it's always going to get the wrong person pissed off. And in the end, what does it accomplish? Answer me that. Did they want to depict Mohammad to get a point across, or to get news for their ever-failing popularity? My honest opinion is the latter.

Edit: Ahhh, KG, half points. It's not a bobblehead and he's not giving someone a high-five. He's just ready for the occasion. ;)

[manasecret]

Typhoid, I'm beginning to wonder if you actually have a point in all this. It's beginning to sound like your typical inane circular logic.

[Typhoid]

Typhoid, I'm beginning to wonder if you actually have a point in all this. It's beginning to sound like your typical inane circular logic.

+ 5 Internet points.

Read my last post, you know - the one where I adressed you with my point.

Edit: Here, I'll do it for you.


"I'm trying to get the point across that A) Freedom of Speech is not universal B) The Middle East in general has a VERY different culture - at least amongst the extremists. They aren't as relaxed as we are about shit like this."

[KillerGremlin]

The fact they don't want Mohammad depicted is wrong? Who are you to dictate what another religion should deem good or bad?

I'm not sure where this Good/Bad straw man came from, as I never said the religion was good or bad. I questioned the validity of the belief using a scientific and now legal approach.

Look, I'm speaking strictly in terms of United States law. I'm speaking in terms of law firmly now too, especially at this point in the discussion. In America the LAW, L-A-W, is freedom of speech. It really doesn't matter what anyone believes because the L-A-W states that I have a right to freedom of speech. That is who I am to dictate.

US Constitution (The Law) > rules of Muslim religion

So if 1 billion Muslims believe that Mohamed should not be depicted, and I believe I wanted to depict him, I would be right and they would be wrong. At least in a legal sense. In a philosophical sense we could certainly argue, but then I'd ask you to prove the existence of Allah.



Hundreds of years ago, yes. That would be perfect.

No, it wouldn't. In fact early Christians or whoever fucked a lot of good stuff up. Word in the history books is Alexander the Great had a library full of information that was burned to the ground by fundamentalists, information that was recently rediscovered as early as just a few hundred years ago. It wasn't until Copernicus got the wheels of science rolling again that people realized how bad the anti-science mentality from religion was. This is totally subjective, of course.



Firs toff, I assume you're meaning there are Muslims in the US. There are. 0.2% of the world's population of Muslims live in the US.
Secondly, you have no right to say which religion is wrong, and which is right. In this case (The case of Mohammad not being depicted) technically, they are right. Mohammad isn't allowed to be depicted. It says so in their religion. So realistically, South Park, and those defending it are in the wrong.

Constitution > religious rules




I feel like there is very little I can add to this discussion with further arguing, so I'll let more qualified people jump in.

[Typhoid]

I'm not sure where this Good/Bad straw man came from, as I never said the religion was good or bad. I questioned the validity of the belief using a scientific and now legal approach.

You alluded to "If 1 billion people are wrong" which I took as a direct statement to Muslims, opposed to a comparison of 1 billion people on some other topic.

but then I'd ask you to prove the existence of Allah.

Prove God doesn't/Prove he does. Blah blah blah. That's circular and retarded.
And yes, I'm aware the absence of proof isn't proof.
And for the record, I am not religious, so I have no stake in any of this.



No, it wouldn't. In fact early Christians or whoever fucked a lot of good stuff up. Word in the history books is Alexander the Great had a library full of information that was burned to the ground by fundamentalists, information that was recently rediscovered as early as just a few hundred years ago. It wasn't until Copernicus got the wheels of science rolling again that people realized how bad the anti-science mentality from religion was. This is totally subjective, of course.

No, I agree with you.
What I was getting at was that hundreds and hundreds of years ago the world was flat (as far as everyone knew), making the statement of "The world is flat" a 'fact', until proven otherwise. So to think the world was flat in an age where the world was depicted to be flat wouldn't be wrong, or crazy. By our standards, completely.

[manasecret]

+ 5 Internet points.

Read my last post, you know - the one where I adressed you with my point.


+10 Internet points divided by two for editing your point in after I read it

Edit: Here, I'll do it for you.

"I'm trying to get the point across that A) Freedom of Speech is not universal B) The Middle East in general has a VERY different culture - at least amongst the extremists. They aren't as relaxed as we are about shit like this."


That's not a point, you're just telling us facts that we already all know. Honestly, so what are we supposed to do with those two supposed points? Are we supposed to kowtow to violent people because they pulled some rule out of their ass 1500 years ago and they're not ok with people making fun of them yet?

[Typhoid]

That's not a point, you're just telling us facts that we already all know.

Good, then you agree my points as being fact.


Good discussion, carry on amongst yourselves.

[Professor S]

I'll just add this:

The media isn't avoiding the utterance of Mohammad out of respect. They are avoiding the name out of abject fear. That cannot be described as good under any definition of the word.

[manasecret]

Well done, Typhoid, well done. I guess you agree that you have no point then.

I'm all for denouncing the use of violence and fear to attempt to stop freedom of speech and poking fun, no matter how supposedly sacrosanct the speech may be poking fun at. Even after all those posts, I am left wondering if you are, too.

[Teuthida]

*sigh* I thought I was done with this thread.

On science:
Everyone should be free to believe whatever cannot be proven by science. Don't believe in evolution or think the world is flat. We'll have words. Think there's an omniscient invisible dude in the sky? Whatever.

On respect:
If you trick a vegetarian into eating meat, you're a dick.
If you draw a swastika on someone's property, you're a dick.
If you call someone the n-word, you're a dick.
If you depict Mohammed, you're a dick.
If I could think up something for Christians to be a dick about I would but it seems most of them don't agree on anything and constantly break all their own rules anyway.

Comedians can get away with racey material about their own race/religion. If you (not of that race/religon) do it, you're a dick and a bigot.

To summarize: Don't be a dick.

[manasecret]

*sigh* I thought I was done with this thread.

On science:
Everyone should be free to believe whatever cannot be proven by science. Don't believe in evolution or think the world is flat. We'll have words. Think there's an omniscient invisible dude in the sky? Whatever.

Pretty good definition, except nothing can be proven in science. There is simply a consensus on the best given theory. Most people, however, who say evolution is false or might think the world is flat, aren't actually interested in real science, despite what they might think. But anyway...

On respect:
If you trick a vegetarian into eating meat, you're a dick.
If you draw a swastika on someone's property, you're a dick.
If you call someone the n-word, you're a dick.
If you depict Mohammed, you're a dick.
If I could think up something for Christians to be a dick about I would but it seems most of them don't agree on anything and constantly break all their own rules anyway.I just don't think those are equal. Maybe if you depict Mohammad, and then shoved it in front of a Muslim's face, forcing them to see it, then you're a dick. Depicting Mohammad in your own space or show? IMO that's hardly being a dick. Forcing someone to not depict Mohammad in their own space, and force it with fear of violence? THAT's being a dick, and far more.

Comedians can get away with racey material about their own race/religion. If you (not of that race/religon) do it, you're a dick and a bigot.

To summarize: Don't be a dick.Disagree with this, too. Comedians do equal opportunity insulting all the time.

[Teuthida]

I just don't think those are equal. Maybe if you depict Mohammad, and then shoved it in front of a Muslim's face, forcing them to see it, then you're a dick. Depicting Mohammad in your own space or show? IMO that's hardly being a dick. Forcing someone to not depict Mohammad in their own space, and force it with fear of violence? THAT's being a dick, and far more.


That's fair. As Typhoid pointed out though, they don't want Mohammed becoming a joke like has Jesus become. Besides things like Buddy Jesus, you have folks traveling hundreds of miles to see a potato chip that sort of maybe looks like what people imagine he looked like (http://whatwouldjesussee.com/). That's ridiculous. Best to stop images completely. Threatening with violence is never the answer though. I guess I can't assume folks will just play nice. Too many Americans are segregated from Islamic culture. All they know comes from TV and these stupid extremists. Easy to villainize.

[Professor S]

After reading this thread I think the psychological community should advance political correctness to the level of a mental disease.

[KillerGremlin]

After reading this thread I think the psychological community should advance political correctness to the level of a mental disease.

:lolz: :lolz: :lolz:
Amen! Alleluia! Derka Derka! Derka derka muhammad allah jihad.

It’s amazing, some of the responses in this thread.

[TheSlyMoogle]

I think free speech trumps everything.

It may make you a dick but think you should be able to say and do as you please.

You might get murdered for it, but hey, you said what you had to say.

Just because I depicted Mohammad as a giant dildo, doesn't mean you should kill me.

You just do something way awesome like depict america as a giant asshole and show the dildo Mohammad fucking it.

[Teuthida]

It’s amazing, some of the responses in this thread.

I concur. :unsure:

Out of curiosity, anyone here actually have any Muslim friends?

[Professor S]

Out of curiosity, anyone here actually have any Muslim friends?

I did in College, and they never threatened to kill me. I guess I got off lucky, because reading this thread that kind of behavior is apparently acceptable for Muslims.

[Teuthida]

No...jeez.

Just asked concerning empathy. Forget it. I'll just draw the lot of you giving Matt and Trey blowjobs for May 20.

(And for the record I didn't see the South Park episode so not sure what they did. Don't believe I ever saw an entire episode before either. The voices are too annoying to sit through half an hour. I saw BASEketball...that was mildly enjoyable at age 13.)

[Professor S]

No...jeez.

Just asked concerning empathy. Forget it. I'll just draw the lot of you giving Matt and Trey blowjobs for May 20.

(And for the record I didn't see the South Park episode so not sure what they did. Don't believe I ever saw an entire episode before either. The voices are too annoying to sit through half an hour. I saw BASEketball...that was mildly enjoyable at age 13.)

I don't think anyone is criticizing the showing of empathy, but that empathy should not be so selective. The entertainment media shits on other religions, especially Christianity at the drop of a hat and receive no threats of reprisal and outside of sympathetic religious circles there is virtually no outrage.

And for some reason the religion that threatens violence when it is parodied in mild fashion should receive special secular empathy? I don't understand the value system at play when it comes to the political correctness surrounding Islam.

[Teuthida]

Maybe its because you get so many outspoken Christians saying such stupid things so often. Sadly this is also a Christian country. Making fun of a majority is easy. Most who do it are either Christians themselves or were at some time.

Then you have the Islamic extremists and the others quietly practicing their religion. Last time I was in LA the local mosques were all graffitied over with racist epithets. Maybe I just see parodying Islam as a way to spur more of that behavior among the racist and ignorant. During the election and even still on Fox News they equate being Muslim with something negative. If more folks in this country were educated then parody would be fine.

I'm also going to more extremes in this thread because it's too easy for someone to quote Team America and laugh. I love parody. I love making fun of stupid people. I just think one needs to consider both sides and put yourself in others shoes.

[thatmariolover]

No...jeez.

Just asked concerning empathy. Forget it. I'll just draw the lot of you giving Matt and Trey blowjobs for May 20.

(And for the record I didn't see the South Park episode so not sure what they did. Don't believe I ever saw an entire episode before either. The voices are too annoying to sit through half an hour. I saw BASEketball...that was mildly enjoyable at age 13.)

The show makes fun of everybody equally. That's the best part of the show - it challenges everybody, regardless of who they are. Muhammad is hardly alone in this episode; he's part of the Super Best Friends. They’re a brawny team of crime-fighting deities that also includes Buddha, Jesus, Joseph Smith, Krishna, and Sea Man. Two opposing camps, Tom Cruise and Gingers, want to clone Muhammad's power to not be mocked so they take South Park hostage until they deliver him.

The bottom line, though, is that it wasn't making fun of Muhammad at all. It's the offended Muslims that are the butt of the joke. There is no ban on the image of Mohammed, and the only the power he has to not be mocked is power that we as people give him. You can go to museums with images depicting the Prophet Muhammad all over.

Should Christians kill Dan Brown for writing the Da Vinci Code? No, but if it was about Islam it's suddenly worthy of controversy and offense? Absolutely not. And South Park underscored that point - a double standard exists. They challenged the Islamic taboo and might have succeeded with something had they not been censored.

Apparently the writers behind The Simpsons agree with South Park.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/113726/simpsons_chalkboard_muhammad.jpg

[KillerGremlin]

I concur. :unsure:

Out of curiosity, anyone here actually have any Muslim friends?

I do. I also have Muslim non-friends, as I roomed with someone who was Muslim and found the experience to be jarring. It was a socially jarring experience more than anything, although my roommate was a pretty devout Muslim...I'm not saying there is any correlation, but a lot of his social behavior would not fly in normal social settings. Fortunately, he put himself in very selective social settings among fellow Muslims and friends who shared his social quirks.

WHAT SOCIAL QUIRKS DARE I SPEAK OF???!?!?!

Well for one, he had an incredibly condescending attitude towards women. Just the way he treated me alone vs. me and my girlfriend or my girlfriend was astounding. I realize he is first generation American as his parents were fresh off the boat, and he is hardcore Muslim, but regardless.

I've also seen separation of church and state stretched the most on behalf of Muslims. We had Muslim clubs in high school, and that was fine as there were other religious clubs. But since Muslims need to pray several times a day, and the prayer process is quite extensive, they had their own section segmented off in the school library where they could pray. So basically, US tax dollars went to funding a Muslim prayer room in my high school. I'm not okay with that. Also, they could leave class to go pray. And again, I personally have no problem with that, but to what extent do people start abusing that privilege to skip class, or when do we start accommodating the needs of other religions? I found the whole issue incredibly mind-boggling. It's actually a funny story, anecdotal as it is, because it shows how bending over to accommodate the religious needs of a group stretches and challenges the very things our Founding Fathers fought against when they established the US Constitution and separation of church and state.

There were other things, but since I'm moving forward in a highly anecdotal direction I will stop now.

Maybe its because you get so many outspoken Christians saying such stupid things so often. Sadly this is also a Christian country. Making fun of a majority is easy. Most who do it are either Christians themselves or were at some time.

There's like 1.5 billion people that practice Islam, making it the second largest practiced religion behind Christianity. And your statement is full of assumptions and "so whats?"

I love parody. I love making fun of stupid people. I just think one needs to consider both sides and put yourself in others shoes.

Cool story bro, I have something better than empathy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Read it.

[KillerGremlin]

Disclaimer:

I realize not all Muslims are like my roommate. In fact 99% of them are not! Most of them are like your typical Christians...they have a sense of humor, they are normal social people. Like I said, I have Muslim friends. I have Hindu friends. I have Jewish friends. I even have a few Buddhist friends. The fact is I choose my friends based on things like their personality and common interests, and if we butt heads on religion it is over a beer or in the context of *gasp* a joke. Because normal, socially acclimated people can take a joke.

I'm just saying, like whacky Christians, one or two bad apples can really stink up the barrel.

[Teuthida]

I do. I also have Muslim non-friends, as I roomed with someone who was Muslim and found the experience to be jarring. It was a socially jarring experience more than anything, although my roommate was a pretty devout Muslim...I'm not saying there is any correlation, but a lot of his social behavior would not fly in normal social settings. Fortunately, he put himself in very selective social settings among fellow Muslims and friends who shared his social quirks.

WHAT SOCIAL QUIRKS DARE I SPEAK OF???!?!?!

Well for one, he had an incredibly condescending attitude towards women. Just the way he treated me alone vs. me and my girlfriend or my girlfriend was astounding. I realize he is first generation American as his parents were fresh off the boat, and he is hardcore Muslim, but regardless.

There were other things, but since I'm moving forward in a highly anecdotal direction I will stop now.

Cool story bro. (Whee, I can do that too.)


There's like 1.5 billion people that practice Islam, making it the second largest practiced religion behind Christianity. And your statement is full of assumptions and "so whats?"


We're talking about the U.S. That's 0.6% as of 2008. Compared to 76% practicing Christians.

Cool story bro, I have something better than empathy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_A...s_Constitution

Westboro Church is covered under the First Admendment. Doesn't make what they say right. You're allowed to bear arms as well. Does that make bringing assault rifles to a health care debate justifiable? There are rights and then there's using your brain.


And AGAIN, I didn't see the South Park ep and could have been fine. I just didn't like where the Draw Mohammed Day thing might end up. Seems like an excuse for racist ignorant people to let loose.

[Dylflon]

I failed to contextualize the presentation thing I posted.

That pretty much just serves as a historical explanation for the aversion to images but most Muslims aren't that hard-line about it. A majority of Muslims are actually forward thinking progressive people.


Still, what Matt and Trey are doing is sort of silly. Of course they should have the right to say whatever they feel they should say. But they've done the Muhammed thing already. Now it just feels like they're trying to get under people's skin rather than put out a relevant message like they did with the Cartoon Wars Muhammed episodes.

[Typhoid]

I concur. :unsure:

Out of curiosity, anyone here actually have any Muslim friends?

I have a few.
One of them in particular (Who I actually asked about this) is a really 'normal' Canadian guy. Plays music, loves the Beatles, Broken Bells, Indie music. Went to University, has a very good job. Completely socially normal, doesn't treat women differently etc. He's just a guy who happens to be Muslim.

He said the reason he doesn't like it [not that he is threatening violence] is because there is already enough ignorance towards Islam, and Muslims. It would be different if the masses were educated and poking fun for the sake of poking fun, rather than the fact they are Muslims. He doesn't think Mohammad should ever be depicted because that could not only open the door to more ignorance, but could lead the way to commercialization of a prophet, which he doesn't agree with. He said no prophet/divine-anything should ever be commercialized. He fears Mohammad could in the future become a commercial mule, much like what Jesus is now. He compared the level of ignorance to 'Hug a Nigger' day. He said "While the day doesn't exist at all, if it were to - I don't think it would be a 'whatever, man - we have free speech' attitude towards it."

[manasecret]

To me, South Park and other cartoons and the controversies they have created have done more to spread knowledge about Muslims and their feelings on depicting Mohammad than anything else before. If the point is to remove ignorance, creating something that makes people talk about what they're ignorant of generally educates them about it.

It's like when a Christian group protests some fairly obscure movie, and instead of leaving it in obscurity, it just causes more people to see it and talk about it and form their own opinions on it.

[KillerGremlin]

To me, South Park and other cartoons and the controversies they have created have done more to spread knowledge about Muslims and their feelings on depicting Mohammad than anything else before. If the point is to remove ignorance, creating something that makes people talk about what they're ignorant of generally educates them about it.

It's like when a Christian group protests some fairly obscure movie, and instead of leaving it in obscurity, it just causes more people to see it and talk about it and form their own opinions on it.

I think that's the issue...education is the first step to, well...educating people. I know education has not kept me in the Catholic Church as a devout Christian. :lol:

[Teuthida]

Sorry to come back to this but I should have looked into this group more. It's laughable. It's a group of 5-10 people and it's public knowledge who they are and where they protest.

The leader is a white guy (who used to be Jewish) from Queens.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/03/26/islam_ny.jpg

Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, stated regarding the Revolution Muslim group, "[It is] an extreme fringe group that has absolutely no credibility within the Muslim community. In fact, most Muslims suspect they were set up only to make Muslims look bad. We just have very deep suspicions. They say such outrageous, irresponsible things that it almost seems like they're doing it to smear Islam."

Can't believe anyone would give into these guys.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Now that's what I call a sticky situation.

[KillerGremlin]

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Back up:
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4oLvwMxwHFs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4oLvwMxwHFs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


Context? Is it really needed. o_O

[Professor S]

Universities need to be watched very closely by security intelligence. Here is an clip from an interaction between David Horowitz (not a fan, BTW) and a Muslim student from UCSD. The exchange all seems very reasonable until the very end, and the answer she gives is chilling.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8fSvyv0urTE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8fSvyv0urTE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This is not some poor Arab pulled off the streets and brainwashed by a terrorist organization. This is an educated and intelligent American citizen. We need to be very careful about danger in our own back yard.

[manasecret]

To be somewhat fair, that is a loaded question. Can't you be for some of what Hamas does, and against other parts of it? (See: the U.K.'s and Australia's stance on Hamas.)

To be fair again, all she had to say was that she was against that statement about rounding up Jews, but for their humanitarian efforts. From her answer, she sure makes it sound like she's ok with rounding up Jews (or whatever that quote from the Hamas leader was about).

[Professor S]

The last question that was asked was specifically about rounding up Jews to be sent to Israel for genocide. It had nothing to do with humanitarian efforts or political topics. In fact, it was the political question she refused to answer. The question she answered only had to do with supporting genocide. Up until that point I thought she had some reasonable points.

I can't see any way to defend her final comment.

[manasecret]

I don't defend her final answer. I can however see how she is young, probably not practiced on debating, nervous, a little agitated that her question got veered off, and answered a Yes to that final question without thinking what that really meant to answer the question in the way Horowitz put it.

She ought to apologize for such an answer, if she really didn't mean it that way. Otherwise, I'd have to take her at face-value and assume she would support such a statement.

[KillerGremlin]

If she is unaware of the consequences of her answer or the context of the question then why give an answer at all, especially an answer that tests the waters. :ohreilly:

This just reinforces my observation that 99% of all college activists should never become lawyers. :p

[Professor S]

My reaction to that young woman's answer is surprising, even to me. I'm not angry or scared or what you might expect... I'm sad. It saddens me, almost the tears, to see someone who is educated, intelligent and privileged have such a destructive and hateful world view, and not only that, but that she would feel so little shame or concern in expressing those views in front of such a diverse audience.

This is chased by the revelation that such ideas and attitudes are not just relegated t the poor and ignorant. I suppose murderous hate is not just a luxury of the poor and stupid.

[KillerGremlin]

My reaction to that young woman's answer is surprising, even to me. I'm not angry or scared or what you might expect... I'm sad. It saddens me, almost the tears, to see someone who is educated, intelligent and privileged have such a destructive and hateful world view, and not only that, but that she would feel so little shame or concern in expressing those views in front of such a diverse audience.

This is chased by the revelation that such ideas and attitudes are not just relegated t the poor and ignorant. I suppose murderous hate is not just a luxury of the poor and stupid.

Yeah, her answer was pretty sad. How can someone honestly believe things like that? I don't consider myself a humanitarian by any means, but in an ideal world I would not wish death upon anyone.

[Angrist]

Pff, those Danish speak terrible Norwegian... And I thought the cop with the long blond hair was a woman.

Anyway, I also thought the naked Mohammed was very offensive. I can understand how emotions become too much to handle in cases like these.

Not that I agree with how they react of course...

[Bond]

In other news, Pakistan apparently blocked access to Facebook this Wednesday because of "an online competition to draw the Prophet Mohammad." I've pasted the first page of the article below for your reading pleasure. Please note the particularly scary highlighted quote:

SLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan has blocked the popular video sharing website YouTube indefinitely in a bid to contain “blasphemous” material, officials said on Thursday.

The blockade came after the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) directed Internet service providers to stop access to social network site Facebook indefinitely on Wednesday because of an online competition to draw the Prophet Mohammad.

Any representation of the Prophet Mohammad is deemed un-Islamic and blasphemous by Muslims.

Wahaj-us-Siraj, the CEO of Nayatel, an Internet service provider, said the PTA issued an order late on Wednesday seeking an “immediate” block of YouTube.

“It was a serious instruction as they wanted us to do it quickly and let them know after that,” he told Reuters.

YouTube was also blocked in the Muslim country in 2007 for about a year for what it called un-Islamic videos.

A Foreign Office spokesman condemned the publication of caricatures of the Muslim prophet on Facebook and urged countries to “address the issue” which he said was an “extremely sensitive and emotional matter for Muslims.”

“Such malicious and insulting attacks hurt the sentiments of Muslims around the world and can not be accepted under the garb of freedom of expression,” the spokesman, Abdul Basit, told a weekly briefing.

...

Source: Wired (http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/05/pakistans-blocking-binge-first-facebook-now-youtube-others-inaccessible/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wired/index+(Wired:+Index+3+(Top+Stories+2))&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)