Xbox Banning and Piracy

[Blix]

So MS started banning 360s again and a couple of friends of mine got banned. The next thing that happens is that they start saying that MS suxs and that they're EVIL for banning Xboxs that are modded to play pirated games and that they're not buying a new Xbox just because MS does this to make them buy a new 360 (at least that part I believe has a bit of truth). This has really upset me these days. What makes people think they have the RIGHT to piracy? Seriously! How can you get upset with a company that gets back at you for modding their consoles to play pirated games? If anything, people have proven to be way more greedy than players when they pirate games. The one friend that was upset the most even sells pirated games. How can you get upset when you're making money off of something you don't own!?!?!?!?

Seriously, what do you think about these kind of people? I'll write more later, but I'm running out of time now.

[Blix]

... Also, if you really like videogames, then you know how much piracy hurts videogame companies and how many companies are struggling to turn in profits. The guy that sells copied games says that he doesn't have money and he can't afford them. Now I know he has a though time making money but still... you can't excuse yourself saying that. And still the fact remains that he sells software he doesn't own and takes the sales away from the developers. What the videogame fans are becoming really pisses me off.

[Vampyr]

For the most part, people are getting what they deserve.

The only part that's "bad" about this, is that some people put "non Microsoft certified" hard drives into their 360, to increase space. This counts a mod, and last I heard anyone who did this has basically bricked their xbox.

This isn't really fair, because all the hard drives are the same - except that the microsoft certified ones for the xbox are very expensive.

[BreakABone]

1) I will agree with your friend's assertion that they did this to force people to re-buy Xboxes, I mean come on just a week or so before the biggest release of this generation.

With that said, I think they got what was coming to them. Piracy is a bitch, and its especially rough in this day and age where companies are going belly up left and right.

Now I was trying to reconcile while I have an issue with video game piracy, but not with like movies and music, and I guess the only thing I could come up with is that its the sole source of revenue for games. You can see a movie in theatres, you can pick up a DVD or Blu Ray copy, you can rent it via Blockbuster, and I do all of those, and tend to buy anything I truly enjoy. Games though are just that, if you don't buy it.. there's nothing else. Not a lot of them get merchandise tie-ins or sponsors and stuff.

Also, for anyone who doesn't care to play online... there are a TON of cheap Xboxes on craigslist.

[Fox 6]

I really think that it had to do with the leaks of Forza 3, Borderlands, and of course MW2. All bigger titles, just led them to start cracking down.

[Angrist]

Serves them right, they knew it was illegal and they did it anyway.

I am often appalled by the open advertisements of console mods or R4 cards. It's just too easy.

[Szymon]

For the most part, people are getting what they deserve.

The only part that's "bad" about this, is that some people put "non Microsoft certified" hard drives into their 360, to increase space. This counts a mod, and last I heard anyone who did this has basically bricked their xbox.

This isn't really fair, because all the hard drives are the same - except that the microsoft certified ones for the xbox are very expensive.

I agree with you that although they're probably pissed off, people are getting what they deserve. I heard that HDDs are Accessories and therefor you're allowed to use 3rd party hard drives. If that's not the case, does then the 250GB HDD I bought for $70 online might not get connected to my 360 when it arrives. Anyone else here more about this?

[Bond]

I agree with you that although they're probably pissed off, people are getting what they deserve. I heard that HDDs are Accessories and therefor you're allowed to use 3rd party hard drives. If that's not the case, does then the 250GB HDD I bought for $70 online might not get connected to my 360 when it arrives. Anyone else here more about this?
You can't use 3rd party storage devices with the 360 anymore. It was announced a few weeks ago, but I'm not sure when it takes effect.

[BreakABone]

You can't use 3rd party storage devices with the 360 anymore. It was announced a few weeks ago, but I'm not sure when it takes effect.

Well that's donkey nuts, they should drop the price of their damn harddrives then.

[Bond]

Well that's donkey nuts, they should drop the price of their damn harddrives then.
I agree. The 120 GB HDD is ridiculously over-priced.

[Szymon]

According to the blog of an employee working for MS, certain memory units are going to fail. Users won't get banned for it though, probably because of some sort of twisted remorse they feel for fucking everyone out of the splendor of having a competitive market with competitive pricing. We'll see how this (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30827) hard drive works out when it gets here. I'll keep anyone updated if they're interested.

[TheSlyMoogle]

I feel like sometimes it's ok to pirate games. Like Japanese games I'll never see released over here in the states but I would enjoy playing. I've been pirating fighting games for years now because the competitive scene here in America plays a lot of them. Arcana Hearts (which did finally come here), Big Bang Beat, Hokuto no Ken, Certain versions of guilty gear, Melty Blood. It's either pay 160 dollars to ship the game here from Japan (Basically in japan they go for 30k yen, aka 30 dollars), or pirate it. We chose to pirate. No shame.

I also feel about 60% of game or more are just terrible. Over-priced pieces of shit to be honest. I would say it's more like 80% of wii games.

I'm sure everyone here knows exactly the feeling when you spend your hard earned munnies on a game thinking about how awesome it will be, then "BAM" shitty game.

There's nothing you can do in that situation either, except take it to gamestop and trade it in for like 25-30 dollars on another game. To think of all the games I've played on the R4, and I don't really think any of them I would have ever bought except for Professor layton and it's sequel which I did end up buying the sequel.

There will always be piracy, there will always be over-priced systems and games, and there will always be people who tell you that if piracy stopped those things wouldn't be so expensive. Those people will always be full of shit.

I don't see piracy effecting the current growth of the game industry because if you haven't noticed, pirating is kinda complicated and I would say the majority of casual gamers and even serious gamers have no clue how to go about doing it.

Also those who got caught obviously didn't know how to mod their 360s right, or they did it with a chip. In that case sucks to be them...

[BreakABone]

http://gamepolitics.com/2009/11/19/law-firm-sniffing-around-xbox-live-class-action-suit

Seems like there may be a class action lawsuit against MS for the banning. It shall be most interesting.

On one hand, MS has a point.
On the other, it does look like a way to boost holiday sales around MW 2.

[Szymon]

http://gamepolitics.com/2009/11/19/law-firm-sniffing-around-xbox-live-class-action-suit

Seems like there may be a class action lawsuit against MS for the banning. It shall be most interesting.

On one hand, MS has a point.
On the other, it does look like a way to boost holiday sales around MW 2.

Microsoft has the best lawyers ever and the people who got banned clearly broke the ToS. How do they expect to win this?

[thatmariolover]

Microsoft has the best lawyers ever and the people who got banned clearly broke the ToS. How do they expect to win this?

Because the issue isn't that they were banned, it's that Microsoft will sell them another 360 even if they broke their original T.O.S. It's a very shoddy business practice with online accounts (even in online games like WoW). They don't care if you cheat, they'll make more money off of you when you eventually are forced to either resubscribe or quit (or in this case, buy another console). And more specifically, they waited until a major release (when many of the modders very well may have purchased a legitimate copy of the game already) and then banned people.

I agree that the modders shouldn't have done what they did in the first place. But I think allowing them back on the network with a $200 down payment is a little absurd. Particularly when they use something like the release of a highly anticipated game to encourage it.

[Szymon]

Wouldn't it be 100% up to them to choose when they ban players? In my opinion, the banned kids have nothing to say but "LOL yep, we fucked up. We probably shouldn't have done something that illegal and unfair to the producers of these games. I knew what I was getting into."

You may not agree with what Microsoft is doing, but at least they're playing fair. IANAL but I don't think this lawsuit stands a chance, especially in America.

[Angrist]

On the other, it does look like a way to boost holiday sales around MW 2.I know who's behind the banning. Reggie!

[BreakABone]

I haven't read up on the bannings, but I'm curious from what I do know, it seems more that they are banning people from xbox live, which I think may cause some problems because no matter how much you pirate, I don't think there is any way to get live for free.

So technically you are punishing them by actually removing the one thing they do pay for... I think anyhow

[Angrist]

It's the same as with bans from Steam and World of Warcraft. People can't pay anymore after that, so it looks like the developers shoot themselves in the foot.
But I guess the idea is to scare other people enough to don't start piracy.

[Blix]

OK. I haven't had much time to keep posting in the thread but I'd like to share this video with you guys and get your opinions on it. I don't agree with everything they say and don't disagree with everything either. But I want to hear your opinions before I give mine so you give your ideas just as you see them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqJsGjXdNW4

[BreakABone]

Well I think this is an interesting twist,


Microsoft has begun issuing temporary bans to players taking advantage of an exploit in Modern Warfare 2, while Infinity Ward works on a patch to fix the issue. While the servers may be kept slightly cleaner for the efforts, the amount of control Microsoft holds over owners of their consoles, and the arbitrary way they are able to wield it, is troubling.


Sony stated that it won't be banning anyone over cheating in Modern Warfare 2, but with Infinity Ward controlling all the servers for the game on the PC side of things, bans have been handed down for cheating there, as well. With dedicated servers there was no way for a company to stop you from playing the game, but the closed nature of IWNet means the developer and publisher control your ability to play the game online.

No one is going to defend cheating, but glitches, exploits, and bugs have long found their way into strategy and helped to move gaming forward. Would rocket jumpers have been banned from Xbox Live? If Valve shut down dedicated servers and sought to control every aspect of their games, would there have been Counter Strike? The control Microsoft exerts over Xbox Live, and its ability to block your access to online play remotely, and without appeal, means that you'll be playing the games how they want.

So the gist of it, should MS or anyone be allowed to ban players who exploit a glitch that is in the game?

As much as it sucks, and it does ruin the experience at times, if the developer couldn't be bothered to take it out, I don't see why the player should be punished for it.

I'm sure they will be unbanned once IW patches the game, but its still messed up.

http://www.examiner.com/x-30793-Chicago-Online-Games-Examiner~y2009m12d5-Xbox-Live-Banning-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Javelin-Exploit-Abusers

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-30793-Chicago-Online-Games-Examiner~y2009m12d6-Opinion-Good-Riddance-to-Bad-Gamers-Xbox-Live-Banning-Javelin-Exploit-Abusers-in-CODMW2

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/microsoft-difference-between-cheat-exploit-none-banned.ars

[Vampyr]

Yeah, I also think that is wrong.

I've always subscribed to the philosophy that a player in a competitive game should play to win, using whatever the game gives them, including bugs/glitches.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Dude Halo 2 would have blown ass without the 3 glitches that everyone played with. Made it much more fun.

[Combine 017]

Well I think this is an interesting twist,



So the gist of it, should MS or anyone be allowed to ban players who exploit a glitch that is in the game?

As much as it sucks, and it does ruin the experience at times, if the developer couldn't be bothered to take it out, I don't see why the player should be punished for it.

I'm sure they will be unbanned once IW patches the game, but its still messed up.

Its a really annoying glitch and doesnt really help anyone.
In fact, most times it kills team mates instead of enemies.
And the bans are only 24 hours long, unless you keep doing it, then they add more time.

[TheSlyMoogle]

I propose everyone just plays Dual shotgunner in MW2 anyway. It's almost as good as using the rocket glitch.

[Fox 6]

The MW 2 glitch really breaks the game.

[BreakABone]

Yeah, I also think that is wrong.

I've always subscribed to the philosophy that a player in a competitive game should play to win, using whatever the game gives them, including bugs/glitches.
I actually don't subscribe to that nature.

There are glitches that just ruin the balance of the game, and its no longer fun.

I have no idea what the MW 2 glitch is per say so can the players actually explain it.

[Bond]

Microsoft should be able to do whatever it wants within the terms of service that users agree to when registering for Xbox Live.

[Fox 6]

I actually don't subscribe to that nature.

There are glitches that just ruin the balance of the game, and its no longer fun.

I have no idea what the MW 2 glitch is per say so can the players actually explain it.

Basically you turn yourself into a walking bomb that has a really big explosion as soon as you die. So you run into a group of enemies and let them shoot you and you kill them. If they dont shoot you, you can just knife them or something. Pretty much a lose lose situation for anyone whos is not doing it.

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[BreakABone]

Microsoft should be able to do whatever it wants within the terms of service that users agree to when registering for Xbox Live.

You can't honestly believe that?

This isn't the gamer's fault per se, its not like they are hacking the game or using some outside code, its in the frigging game and the developers and MS know about it.

Its like if we all got banned in L4D for using the door glitch in No Mercy. Or skywalking in TF 2.

[KillerGremlin]

Yet another reason why online PC gaming > console gaming. If people could set up their own servers and be their own admins, then they could establish server rules that decide if you get banned from that server for using "map exploits" or "game exploits."

Even though the bans are just temporary, it's pretty lame for Microsoft to ban users for using software exploits that are the result of a developer's poor coding. Every game has exploits, and it is an issue that pops up in EVERY online game. It's one thing for a server run by some individuals to ban users, but for the developer to ban users (who paid for their buggy game).....eh, that's pretty lame.

[Vampyr]

Microsoft should be able to do whatever it wants within the terms of service that users agree to when registering for Xbox Live.

Of course they can - and as you can see they are. I believe the question was more meant to mean "is it right for them to do this".

Yet another reason why online PC gaming > console gaming. If people could set up their own servers and be their own admins, then they could establish server rules that decide if you get banned from that server for using "map exploits" or "game exploits."

Isn't the PC version of MW2 also not on dedicated servers?

[Fox 6]

The PC version is on something called IW net which lets them rule with an iron fist. Pretty sure the same thing is going on on the PC

[KillerGremlin]

That's pretty lame if the PC version is run like that....I wonder what the reaction among the PC community is. Ah, 1.5 stars on Amazon, so basically the PC community has heralded the game as a piece of shit. Not surprising given the developer's reaction to BAN users for poor coding. Shouldn't their reaction have been to reward the users for finding the exploit and patching it? That's what happens in the PC community.

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Pc/dp/B00269QLJ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1260257834&sr=8-3

I am reminded of the jump exploits in Halo 2...or rocket jumping in TFC...or the endless amount of map exploits in Counter-Strike. Usually developers let players use these exploits and they have fun with it, or they patch them up. Otherwise it usually operates based on server rules. If you want to run your own server for TF2 and you don't want people doing certain things, you can make some server rules and ban as you please. But then Bungie and Valve love their community. Or even Blizzard, who is adamant about banning hackers but have always had a patch-or-ignore attitude towards exploits. I guess we can't expect a quality relationship between every developer and the people who pay for their software.

[Angrist]

It reminds me of the illegal exploring in World of Warcraft.
Blizzard made a huge world, and they locked away some of the areas because they weren't ready yet. But because they messed up, players found ways to enter these areas.
It took a lot of skill, but it was worth it. I've done it myself a few times (Old Zul'Gurub), it was interesting to see how areas had evolved etc.
But it's illegal. Blizzard has banned people for entering these areas. I think that's pathetic. They give people the content, but forbid them to use it. And they don't even patch it...

[Combine 017]

That's pretty lame if the PC version is run like that....I wonder what the reaction among the PC community is. Ah, 1.5 stars on Amazon, so basically the PC community has heralded the game as a piece of shit. Not surprising given the developer's reaction to BAN users for poor coding. Shouldn't their reaction have been to reward the users for finding the exploit and patching it? That's what happens in the PC community.

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Pc/dp/B00269QLJ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1260257834&sr=8-3

I am reminded of the jump exploits in Halo 2...or rocket jumping in TFC...or the endless amount of map exploits in Counter-Strike. Usually developers let players use these exploits and they have fun with it, or they patch them up. Otherwise it usually operates based on server rules. If you want to run your own server for TF2 and you don't want people doing certain things, you can make some server rules and ban as you please. But then Bungie and Valve love their community. Or even Blizzard, who is adamant about banning hackers but have always had a patch-or-ignore attitude towards exploits. I guess we can't expect a quality relationship between every developer and the people who pay for their software.

Map exploits or rocket jumping is a little bit different than the javelin glitch. I dont mind when people use map exploits because ill usually know how to get them out of there. But when theres a guy running around doing nothing but waiting to get shot so he can explode and kill everyone around him it gets annoying. Hes basically getting rewarded for dying.

[Fox 6]

That's pretty lame if the PC version is run like that....I wonder what the reaction among the PC community is. Ah, 1.5 stars on Amazon, so basically the PC community has heralded the game as a piece of shit. Not surprising given the developer's reaction to BAN users for poor coding. Shouldn't their reaction have been to reward the users for finding the exploit and patching it? That's what happens in the PC community.

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2-Pc/dp/B00269QLJ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1260257834&sr=8-3

I am reminded of the jump exploits in Halo 2...or rocket jumping in TFC...or the endless amount of map exploits in Counter-Strike. Usually developers let players use these exploits and they have fun with it, or they patch them up. Otherwise it usually operates based on server rules. If you want to run your own server for TF2 and you don't want people doing certain things, you can make some server rules and ban as you please. But then Bungie and Valve love their community. Or even Blizzard, who is adamant about banning hackers but have always had a patch-or-ignore attitude towards exploits. I guess we can't expect a quality relationship between every developer and the people who pay for their software.

A peice of shit that they all play?

http://media.1up.com/media/03/7/7/1/lg/755.jpg

[KillerGremlin]

A peice of shit that they all play?

http://media.1up.com/media/03/7/7/1/lg/755.jpg

This just proves that the only people who play this game on PC are idiots. Obviously you aren't too bright if you join a boycott group and then go play the game you are boycotting. :p

[TheSlyMoogle]

Basically you turn yourself into a walking bomb that has a really big explosion as soon as you die. So you run into a group of enemies and let them shoot you and you kill them. If they dont shoot you, you can just knife them or something. Pretty much a lose lose situation for anyone whos is not doing it.

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Not entirely true about the free knife kills. You have to recook the nade and switch back to javelin in order to reset the glitch. It actually seems to take a fair amount of skill to do it well.

Plus how is that anymore broken than the knife elite who can ran forever, faster, and basically teleport behind an enemy from like 30 feet away and kill them? Also double shotgunner class is fucking disgusting too. That shit is free.

All around a really unbalanced game, and someone discovered this glitch and was like "Oh hey" I approve of the "Suicide Bomber" class.

[Fox 6]

You have to recook the nade and switch back to javelin in order to reset the glitch. It actually seems to take a fair amount of skill to do it well.

No you dont, just tap the SEMTEX button (which doesnt cook) and you switch back and are good to go.

[TheSlyMoogle]

No you dont, just tap the SEMTEX button (which doesnt cook) and you switch back and are good to go.

Oh. Well damn.

[Fox 6]

Patched

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/105/1054431p1.html