Obama and the Birthers

[Professor S]

Not only is this an awsome idea for a band name, but it's also a conspiracy theory that seems to be building steam (and much like steam, it strikes me as being mostly hot air).

What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe President Obama is not eligible to be president because he was born outside of the U.S.?

Was his birth certificate forged?

Is this all a bunch of paranoid nonsense? Is there a tint of racism about it?

Has this conspiracy been overblown? Is the Democratic party helping to foment it to make Republicans look extreme/fringe?

Even if Obama was born in Kenya, what does that even mean? Does that make him ineligible even though his mother was an American citizen?

Thoughts?

[Angrist]

Whatever can make Schwarzenegger president! A European ruling America, that will be fun times.

[Dylflon]

Certain types of people need things like this birth certificate nonsense.


It's the only way they can reconcile their own hypocrisy. Many spent the last 8 years crying "You have to support your president" Then a black democrat gets into office that they clearly don't support. So instead of going against their word, it's far easier to justify their lack of support for this new president by attacking his legitimacy.

Hence the Hawaii birth certificate argument.

[manasecret]

I think life is a scary thing at almost every turn. Life makes people fearful. Fear makes people irrational. And so you get Birthers. Fear, the cause of all problems.

What's the psychological reason that so many conspiracy theories of different strokes have so many followers of different strokes?

[Bond]

I don't know if "fear" is the most proper characterization as to why this issue is a prominent one, although it certainly is one of the causes. I would say it has more to do with: 1) the media, typically, over covering the issue and 2) politics. In my estimation, it would be a smart political strategy for the Democrats to not let this issue die, as it is fairly simple to stereotype one extreme element of the Republican party into the entire Republican party during a thirty-second commercial. Republicans, on the other hand, might have a difficult time trying to quell this extreme element of the party ($$$).

Regardless, I've only seen this issue covered by the twenty-four hour new channels, which were never the greatest source of quality news to begin with.

[Typhoid]

I think this is slathered in many hues of racism.

However, correct me if I'm wrong - which I may be - but don't you have to be born in the US in order to be president? So if he actually was born out of the US, I say no, he shouldn't be president.

But I don't much care for the mud slinging competition that this has turned into the passed few months.

[Bond]

You're right, Typhoid.

Article II, Section I of the Constitution:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleii.html

[Professor S]

You're right, Typhoid.

Article II, Section I of the Constitution:

Ah, but then the argument begins of what "natural born" means. All current legal precedent supports the notion that citizenship follows blood before boundaries. Meaning: Obama's mom was a citizen so he is a citizen, regardless of where he was born.

[Bond]

Ah, but then the argument begins of what "natural born" means. All current legal precedent supports the notion that citizenship follows blood before boundaries. Meaning: Obama's mom was a citizen so he is a citizen, regardless of where he was born.
True, but there are still limitations. For instance, whether or not the child was born overseas to one or two U.S. citizen parents, whether or not those parents were in wedlock, etc.

In any case, this makes the "Birthers" argument even more absurd.

[Jason1]

This crap is so stupid, the Republicans need to just remember they had their 8 years of fun and look how they turned out they need to just shut their mouths and stop whining and let the Democrats do it their way and we will all see if we are better off or not after 4 years... we will be

[TheGame]

This crap is so stupid, the Republicans need to just remember they had their 8 years of fun and look how they turned out they need to just shut their mouths and stop whining and let the Democrats do it their way and we will all see if we are better off or not after 4 years... we will be

Sometimes I wonder if its possible for things to get worse then they were with Bush. He set the bar so low that it's hard to imagine Obama being any worse.

As for the birth certificate issue, I think anyone who really follows it and really belives that there is some type of conspiracy to it is a lunatic.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

People who deny that as evidence only belive in what they chose to belive in. (Though in the words of morpheus"How do you define real?")

And Bond, I'd agree with the second point you made about it being a smart political play on the part of the democrats to keep it running.. but I think the real problem is the republican party itself. The people who represent their party are hte ones who keep adding flames to the fire of this issue by not taking a stand and saying that Obama is a US citezen. Its like they're scared that they'll lose some support if they just squash it and say the truth.

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I like how he makes him admit that this is stupid.

[KillerGremlin]

With a - what was it? 1200 pages? - health bill on the line, it seems like the appropriate time for the major news corporations to focus on non-issues like the insane and minority group, the "Birthers." Instead of talking to Congress about this new proposed bill and having intelligible discussion, the media has decided to fixate on another superfluous Obama-topic. Oh no, Obama uses mustard! Oh no, the Obama family is getting a new dog!

And even the semi-intellectuals get suckered into this. Oh, well the birthers are all republicans. Oh no the republicans are holding Obama down. Oh yeahhh.

SERIOUSLY?! Who gives a shit about these birthers. Why are major news outlets opening up a platform for the birthers to speak? Why are they important? Fuck the news corporations. You think Murdock doesn't know that you're sitting at home sipping on your Big Gulp and getting an erection when the pseudo-news discusses irrelevant topics like birthers. Fuck this. If I was having a conversation with someone about politics and they announced they were a Birhter I would just walk away on the pretense that this person is much less intelligent than me and anything they have to say is not worth hearing. I'm pretty stupid myself. SO IF I CAN COME TO THIS CONCLUSION HOW COME THE NEWS PEOPLE CANT.


http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html
http://www.corrodedreality.org/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.png

[Professor S]

Huxley's version of the future was always far more frightening to me. Oppression from an outside source will always eventually be overthrown, because to rule you inevitably must have the will of the people. Even the Romans understood this and most of their conquered people's were willing participants in the end.

But a society that allows itself to be catered to and taken care of? There is no one to fight that kind of soft oppression when people will hand over their freedom in exchange for reduced personal responsibility. They are the willfully oppressed. The retarded children of the much derided "nanny state".

There is no freedom without responsibility.

But we are WAY off topic.

Personally, I think Birthers for the most part are people who are genuinely concerned about their county's direction under Obama, but they misplace their objections and concentrate on the meaningless and trivial, attacking President Obama as a person, rather than concentrating on countering his ideas and policies. These people are easily dismissed because there is no substance to the argument.

Think of the difference in affect of the two current news items:

The Birthers are overwhelmingly dismissed, even by most conservative talk show hosts, and their cause has gotten them nowhere because they are consumed with Obama Derangement Syndrome (not unlike Sean Hannity's infamous Bush Derangement Syndrome) and attack Pres. Obama the person.

Meanwhile the healthcare town halls are full of people who are passionately arguing policy going line by line through the healthcare plans and the left is reduced to trying to attack the people at the meetings and not their criticisms (Pelosi even claimed people were bringing Swastikas to events, which is utterly untrue and disgusting) and the critics are currently winning the argument.

Ideas will always win if you choose to argue them and not attack the messenger. When you attack the messenger, normally it's a sure sign you're position is weak or deceitful.

[KillerGremlin]

Personally, I think Birthers for the most part are people who are genuinely concerned about their county's direction under Obama, but they misplace their objections and concentrate on the meaningless and trivial, attacking President Obama as a person, rather than concentrating on countering his ideas and policies. These people are easily dismissed because there is no substance to the argument.

Think of the difference in affect of the two current news items:

The Birthers are overwhelmingly dismissed, even by most conservative talk show hosts, and their cause has gotten them nowhere because they are consumed with Obama Derangement Syndrome (not unlike Sean Hannity's infamous Bush Derangement Syndrome) and attack Pres. Obama the person.

Meanwhile the healthcare town halls are full of people who are passionately arguing policy going line by line through the healthcare plans and the left is reduced to trying to attack the people at the meetings and not their criticisms (Pelosi even claimed people were bringing Swastikas to events, which is utterly untrue and disgusting) and the critics are currently winning the argument.

Ideas will always win if you choose to argue them and not attack the messenger. When you attack the messenger, normally it's a sure sign you're position is weak or deceitful.

I think this is pretty accurate and sums everything up nicely.

You have to pardon my above post...I am a little bitter.

[Bond]

Huxley's vision is interesting, but haven't the masses always been uninformed? Hasn't a small minority always brought civilizations forward to progress, that, either directly or indirectly, benefited all? I'm not so sure if Huxley's vision of the world is the exception to the rule, but rather the rule.

Back on topic, it's hard for anyone to have a frank and honest discourse about health care reform when: a) hardly anyone understands the health care and insurance industry and b) no one has read the proposed bills. I don't think that most people realize that the majority of bills that are passed through the Senate are never read. The Stimulus Package? Passed in under twenty-four hours. The Patriot Act? Voted positively on by the keyword "Patriot."

The above, in my view, is what drives coverage of irrelevant issues, such as the "Birthers," such as Michael Jackson, etc.

[Professor S]

Back on topic, it's hard for anyone to have a frank and honest discourse about health care reform when: a) hardly anyone understands the health care and insurance industry and b) no one has read the proposed bills. I don't think that most people realize that the majority of bills that are passed through the Senate are never read. The Stimulus Package? Passed in under twenty-four hours. The Patriot Act? Voted positively on by the keyword "Patriot."

The above, in my view, is what drives coverage of irrelevant issues, such as the "Birthers," such as Michael Jackson, etc.

You would recognize this as a problem, then, correct? Listening to the town halls today, one of the major things I noticed was that there were 5 bills that people were trying to comment on. Of course people are going to mix up the policies in the bills.

It comes to the point that the town halls are utterly useless because there is nothing to discuss because the "out" for the politician is always "hey, we're not even out of the committee yet and there is a lot of work to do" or "Thats not MY bill"... Then why are they having a town hall meeting in the first place to push an incomplete or non-accountable plan?

People leave more confused and distrusting then when they walked in. Politicians still don't seem to understand that their constituents take their healthcare very seriously and are going to demand clarity and transparency before they'll support anything as a majority. This isn't some process bill or whether or not to increase taxes on the rich that people will accept the Cliff's Notes on. It hits home for every American and those politicians supporting the public option are still refusing to treat the subject with the seriousness that the voter is demanding. I think people feel disrespected and the anger is VERY real.

This is the greatest failure of communications and leadership I've seen in government since... well... the last time they tried to push through a healthcare bill. Even then, our leaders NEVER talked down to the American people as they are now, dismissing them as ignoramuses, sycophants, racists or worse.

[TheGame]

If I was having a conversation with someone about politics and they announced they were a Birhter I would just walk away on the pretense that this person is much less intelligent than me and anything they have to say is not worth hearing. I'm pretty stupid myself. SO IF I CAN COME TO THIS CONCLUSION HOW COME THE NEWS PEOPLE CANT.

To me, this goes back to who is making this news legitamate. There's been tons of conspiracy theories in history, including a big one that's about to hit its 8 year anneversary. If our elected officials would just completly dismiss this subject as they did 9-11, then the story would no longer be legit, and it would no longer be played on anything but extreme conservative radio talkshows.

By polititans acknowleging this and not saying confidently that they belive that he's elgible to be president of the united states.. they are allowing this to get more play then it should.

[Bond]

You would recognize this as a problem, then, correct?
Actually, that's a question I'm not quite sure about. I think we can agree that the majority of US citizens are oblivious to the major issues confronting our country, and are not informed with regard to policy, legislation, or their respective representatives. If we agree to that, I then ask why? I have two answers. One, politicians want and/or require an oblivious majority to "keep the masses down." Or, two, the majority of citizens prefer to remain oblivious. I suppose the correct answer lies somewhere in between. But, if the majority does indeed prefer to remain oblivious, can they truly be blamed (or stopped, for that matter)?

[The Germanator]

The "Birther" movement is one of the most asinine things I've seen in a long time. I mean, seriously, we are STILL talking about this? These idiots don't deserve a voice anywhere near the media. It is dumb beyond words.

I think one was the funniest things is that John McCain was actually born in Panama and not in the US. Yeah, I know it's totally legitimate, but I just find that amusing.

[TheGame]

I think one was the funniest things is that John McCain was actually born in Panama and not in the US. Yeah, I know it's totally legitimate, but I just find that amusing.

You know, when that first came up as a concern, Obama actually backed Mccain and said its not an issue. Which squashed it and made it.. well... not be an issue. He could have done like the republican party is doing now to him, and continue to feul questions about Mccain's elgibility... but instead he chose not to lower himself to doing that.

Which is why I still think its not the media's fault directly for covering this, its the representatives who give this issue some legitamacy.

[Angrist]

Man I gotta read 1984 and A Brave New World some time.

[Professor S]

You know, when that first came up as a concern, Obama actually backed Mccain and said its not an issue. Which squashed it and made it.. well... not be an issue. He could have done like the republican party is doing now to him, and continue to feul questions about Mccain's elgibility... but instead he chose not to lower himself to doing that.

I'm not sure you meant to imply this, but please do not confuse the Birther issue by stating the "Republican party" is doing this to Obama. I think most people who associate themseves with Republicans and independent conservatives, including the party leadership, wish this whole mess would go away as it colors discussion on the issues and takes valuable time away for more important, winnable issues like universal health insurance. I think many Democrats LOVE this issue and want to put it in the limelight (ex. The Colbert Report) because as you having demonstrated it this conspiracy from the wacko right wing fringe stains of the entire party.

Once again I don't think you intended to to do so, but saying that Birthers represent the Republican view on Obama's legitimacy is like saying 9/11 conspirators represent the Democrats view of the World Trade Center attacks. Both of these conspiracies are about attacking a person (Obama and Bush, respectively) based on Dan Brown-esque fantasy that has been debunked 1,000 times rather than having thoughtful debate on real issues.

[TheGame]

I'm not sure you meant to imply this, but please do not confuse the Birther issue by stating the "Republican party" is doing this to Obama. I think most people who associate themseves with Republicans and independent conservatives, including the party leadership, wish this whole mess would go away as it colors discussion on the issues and takes valuable time away for more important, winnable issues like universal health insurance. I think many Democrats LOVE this issue and want to put it in the limelight (ex. The Colbert Report) because as you having demonstrated it this conspiracy from the wacko right wing fringe stains of the entire party.

Once again I don't think you intended to to do so, but saying that Birthers represent the Republican view on Obama's legitimacy is like saying 9/11 conspirators represent the Democrats view of the World Trade Center attacks. Both of these conspiracies are about attacking a person (Obama and Bush, respectively) based on Dan Brown-esque fantasy that has been debunked 1,000 times rather than having thoughtful debate on real issues.

I think in order for this issue to die, and no longer have any association with the republican party, all of the republican representatives need to do exactly like the democrats are doing now and dismiss the issue as false. If you watch the video that I posted, you can see how he was trying to use political BS to maneuver around saying Obama is a legitimate US president.

While republican's claiming they KNOW he's eligible may be a lie, it gives them less negative media attention.

You mention 9/11, both Republican's and Democrats dismiss that issue and claim confidently that Bush knew nothing about it beforehand.. even though that's technically a lie since most people don't KNOW this for sure, and there are some OBVIOUS questions about 9-11 and Bush's relationship with the Bin Ladens.. both sides just dismissed it so they didn't look like jackasses. So it didn't get much major media play even though lots of people out there think there's a conspiracy.

When Mccain's eligibility was brought back up in early 2008, both sides of the isle dismissed it. They both said confidently that its not an issue, So it became a non issue, and didn't get much major media play.

Now we have this birther issue, where representatives are scared to squash it.

[Professor S]

I think in order for this issue to die, and no longer have any association with the republican party, all of the republican representatives need to do exactly like the democrats are doing now and dismiss the issue as false. If you watch the video that I posted, you can see how he was trying to use political BS to maneuver around saying Obama is a legitimate US president.

Hmmmm, so Dennis Kucinich believes in aliens. Well following your logic the entire Democrat party need to speak out against the belief that aliens exist, or else we can freely assume they believe in aliens themselves. See how silly that sounds?

Furthermore, if they actually did so speak out against alien belief, wouldn't this non-subject suddenly be considered a major news story again? You don't make a story disappear by continuing to talk about it. People have said their piece about Birthers, but the media has chosen to give air time and press to the 5% of Republicans and independent wackos who actually think this is a huge issue. Continuing to address it as though it were serious would only add more fuel to the fire, IMO.

All the Republican party can do is what they've done so far: Reject this idea as a whole. If you want to assign blame to an entire group because of the beliefs of the fringe few, well then thats more your issue than the Republican party's. And quite honestly, this issue already seems to have gone away for lack of addressing it and the fever pitch healthcare insurance debates are bringing, so I doubt denying what has been already been denied will accomplish much more.

You mention 9/11, both Republican's and Democrats dismiss that issue and claim confidently that Bush knew nothing about it beforehand.. even though that's technically a lie since most people don't KNOW this for sure, and there are some OBVIOUS questions about 9-11 and Bush's relationship with the Bin Ladens.. both sides just dismissed it so they didn't look like jackasses. So it didn't get much major media play even though lots of people out there think there's a conspiracy.

We also don't KNOW Elvis is dead. You can either believe his friends, family, doctors, legitimate news agencies and dig up his rotten stinking corpse... or listen to the fat bearded lady that saw him in 7/11 buying a Slurpee in 1986. Wait... 7/11... 9/11... ELVIS AND THE FAT LADY PLANNED THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATTACKS!!!

On a related note, Bat Boy just graduated from college. Hey, I read it in the Weekly World News, it must be true!!

And thats all I have to say about the 9/11 "debate". It's already been done to death on this forum, and elsewhere and I have no interest in discussing such nonsense further. It saddens me.

When Mccain's eligibility was brought back up in early 2008, both sides of the isle dismissed it. They both said confidently that its not an issue, So it became a non issue, and didn't get much major media play.

Exactly, but this nutter birther group is. Why do you think the media is/was spending so much more time on a subject that makes the Republicans look bad? It's because the Republican party itself wants to look like morons or is it that the media wants to concentrate on the handful that believe in the tooth fairy BECAUSE it makes the Republicans look bad?

[Bond]

In support of what Prof has said previously, I can't see, politically, how perpetuating this issue benefits the Republicans at all. Maybe it fires up the base? But it's not as if this is fundraising season, or that the Republicans need to secure the right-wing base's vote anymore. It definitely does not help with the swing-vote, that is for certain. But who knows.

[TheGame]

Exactly, but this nutter birther group is. Why do you think the media is/was spending so much more time on a subject that makes the Republicans look bad? It's because the Republican party itself wants to look like morons or is it that the media wants to concentrate on the handful that believe in the tooth fairy BECAUSE it makes the Republicans look bad?

No, it gets a lot of play because of things like the 'birther bill', and because a good amount of republican party representatives refuse to deny that this subject is legit.

[Professor S]

No, it gets a lot of play because of things like the 'birther bill', and because a good amount of republican party representatives refuse to deny that this subject is legit.

There is no stronger denial than a representative's VOTE.

A unanimous vote by the U.S. House last night has brought new attention to Rep. Bill Posey's attempt to require presidential candidates to submit their birth certificates to prove they are really U.S. citizens. But Posey is not backing down.

As part of a lingering and, many feel, stupefying controversy over whether President Barack Obama was born in the United States, the House passed a resolution 378-0 celebrating the 50th anniversary of Hawaiian statehood and also recognizing it as Obama's birthplace. Posey, R-Rockledge, joined the majority as did co-sponsors of his bill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/28/bill-posey-wont-give-up-b_n_246300.html

Even those that SPONSORED the "birther bill" affirmed Pres. Obama's citizenship.

EDIT: Portions removed due to "snippiness". I'm working on it :D

[TheGame]

I see where you're coming from prof, even in the video I posted the congressman seemed embarrased about it but still admitted that he thinks that Obama is a US citezen. The 10 republicans in the houise supporting the birther bill in the first place, mixed with the public reaction to it is why it got media play though.

If 10 elected official democrats supported a bill that said that all US presidents need blood tests to prove that they don't have any ailen DNA strands before becoming president, while big mouth democrats were coming to town halls saying that Bush is from mars.. and there was a house democrat saying openly that they can't swear on a stack of bibles that Bush isn't from mars.. it'd get coverage too.

[Professor S]

I see where you're coming from prof, even in the video I posted the congressman seemed embarrased about it but still admitted that he thinks that Obama is a US citezen. The 10 republicans in the houise supporting the birther bill in the first place, mixed with the public reaction to it is why it got media play though.

Perhaps, but back to the main point, I don't think that gives reason to believe the entire party shares those views, especially when most came out against these ideas in one way or another.

[agreed]If 10 elected official democrats supported a bill that said that all US presidents need blood tests to prove that they don't have any ailen DNA strands before becoming president, while big mouth democrats were coming to town halls saying that Bush is from mars.. and there was a house democrat saying openly that they can't swear on a stack of bibles that Bush isn't from mars.. it'd get coverage too.

I'll agree thats it makes it newsworthy, but thats an off-shoot of our main discussion on media concentration: Can you reasonably make assumptions about the entire party's views on birthers from the few fringe members? Remember you did make those assumptions in an earlier post I quoted and bolded, and think I've shown that you can't, especially given the evidence I've posted that the party has been pretty clear in their rejection of the whole mess.

Here is more evidence:

“Chairman Steele believes that this is an unnecessary distraction and believes that the president is a U.S. citizen. Chairman Steele wants to move beyond this conversation and continue discussing the real and immediate concerns that face American families like the economy and health care. Americans are concerned with President Obama’s health care plan, a failed stimulus package and a ballooning deficit. Chairman Steele has many other issues to take up with the president that have to do with policy, not a birth certificate.”

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/republican-national-committee/exclusive-michael-steele-blasts-birtherism-as-unnecessary-distraction-says-obama-is-us-citizen/

The sad part is that I didn't find this on any major news source. I don't think the media considers Republicans against the birthers to be newsworthy. So Republicans for birthers=news, and those that speak out against it are largely ignored, probably helping you to lead to your initial conclusion.

And you have referred to video, I'll do so myself showing how most republicans view the birther mess:

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And even the left has admitted this is a fringe issue (although I think they overstate/misunderstand the racial element)

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By the way, for every piece of news relating the fringiness of this whole mess, there are about 10 trying to pin it on the entire republican party, and almost all of them saying birther=racist (I'll admit I think that for a small part of the birthers (who are a tiny group themselves) thats the real reason) including Chris Matthews who I think is more responsible for this rediculous coverage than anyone else outside of Lou freaking Dobbs. Wow, he completely fell apart as a journalist during and after the election.

[TheGame]

I'll agree with you, that it shouldn't be something that represents the whole republican party.

Its just from what I've seen, it didn't get any serious attention in media until after the birther bill came out. Some legitamate people who happend to all be republicans added strong feul to the fire.

But yeah, now (for the most part) they're trying to disassociate themselves from the Birther movement. I don't think any of them really think Obama was born in Kenya, they've just done something that gives the media a reason to pick on them.

[Professor S]

I think some less than objective polling did some damage as well. There was one poll that stated that "over 50% of Republicans believe the birthers" and it turns out the questions that were asked didn't have much at all to do with the issue, but were mainly general questions about nationality and eligibility.