If you are not reading this book, you are a big dumb poop head.

[Professor S]

You heard me. Read it. Love it.

http://i.livescience.com/images/MGwinter04.jpg

http://johnnysaturn.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/mouseguard.jpg

http://texcap.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/mouse-guard-rpg-cover2.jpg

http://www.mouseguard.net/

[Combine 017]

Well I guess im just a big dumb poop head then.

[Teuthida]

I read part of the first series where they fought the crab. Figured after a crab battle it could only go downhill.

[Professor S]

Well I guess im just a big dumb poop head then.

Then logic states that if you read it, you won't be a big dumb poop head any longer, and who wants to be that?


I read part of the first series where they fought the crab. Figured after a crab battle it could only go downhill.

The second book (Winter) is sooooooo damn good. I actually cried at the end of it, and previously only Big Fish and All Dogs Go to Heaven did that to me (I had a German Shepard when I was a kid).

It's good. REAL good. Highly recommended.

[Angrist]

I like the art, but is it in novel or cartoon form?

[Professor S]

It's a comic book, but I'd qualify it as sequential art. There is not much in the way of dialogue and the action and emotion play out in detailed illustrations. There are ZERO "talking heads".

I buy the hardcover collections where there are tons of add-ons and mythic writings/background.

[Dylflon]

I'll read it if you mail it to me.


I'm too broke to buy books.

And I guess I'll mail it back to you.

[BreakABone]

I'll read it if you mail it to me.


I'm too broke to buy books.

And I guess I'll mail it back to you.

Hey, are you back in town?

And why not.. acquire it through other means.

[Professor S]

Hey! He's an independent publisher! No sneaky torrents, please.

[Teuthida]

Sigh, I just wrote another long rant on the state of the comics industry...and deleted it.

Anyway, shall buy the first book (does the story continue directly from one book to the other or would I be fine just getting Winter 1152?) along with the latest Invincible trade and Asterios Polyp next time I buy comics.

[Acebot44]

Read the first book last night, went by quick, but did enjoy it quite a bit.

...now, to look for the second :mischief:

[Professor S]

Sigh, I just wrote another long rant on the state of the comics industry...and deleted it.

Anyway, shall buy the first book (does the story continue directly from one book to the other or would I be fine just getting Winter 1152?) along with the latest Invincible trade and Asterios Polyp next time I buy comics.

The entire second book is set up by the events of the first book, and also, the second book is very "Empire Strikes Back" in that it is superior to the first, but relies on the character development from the first to give weight to the events in the second.

On side note, owls are assholes. Read the second and you'll see what I mean.

[Professor S]

Sigh, I just wrote another long rant on the state of the comics industry...and deleted it.

Yeah, something needs to be done about comic torrents. Out of curiosity I followed the instructions my buddy gave me to download digital comics (in his defense still pruchases the books but uses the downloads to inform his purchasing habits), and my jaw dropped. I was literally able to download every comic published in a week by DC, Marvel and independents in one fell swoop. This is THOUSANDS of dollars of comics per week for free with a push of the button. I honestly don't know how the industry will survive if nothing is done.

[BreakABone]

Its no different than movies, musics or any other business where a bulk of people can download the goods.

You just hope your product is good enough for other people to want to buy.

[Professor S]

Its no different than movies, musics or any other business where a bulk of people can download the goods.

You just hope your product is good enough for other people to want to buy.

Um, so you're putting the onus on the creator to make a product that people will choose not to steal, and not the thief that unlawfully takes property that is not theirs? A creator and owner of property needs to rely on the good nature and approval of the thief to expect a return for providing a product or service? I'm all for competition, but competing with your own free product is absurd on every level.

BTW Earl, this is not aimed specifically at you, this a a universal comment, so please don't take offense as I don't think you mean any harm. I'm going to be letting my friend know my thoughts on this as well. Even though he's spending probably $100 a week in books, it's still not right to steal what you don't buy.

If this is the moral paradigm that the internet is teaching us, I am for creating restrictions on it's use. All "sharing" and torrent sites should be made shut down immediately or esle our artist and creators ill cease to create. We're submarining our own cultural development so we can save a buck.

[Angrist]

IMO the difference is that nobody prints books. So you have to sit in front of your screen to read your (comic) books. That sucks.
With movies and music the difference isn't that big.

E-paper is the real thread here.

[Teuthida]

Ranty rant time.

To be fair though, illegal downloads are not the reason the industry is the way it is.

Comics used to be a lot more affordable and they printed a lot more. 300,000 an issue used not even be enough to keep a book alive in the 90s. Now 15,000 (which is what I believe Invincible sells) is decent. 45,000 for a top Marvel book I think.

There are also few places outside of comic shops that sell single issues. The average non comic reader isn't going to walk into a shop on a whim to pick up a $3 22 page comic book.

If the price just increased from inflation alone then comics should be about $1.80, but they're all approaching $4 an issue. They're $4 because they can get away with it for that price. The smaller companies follow suit to keep up. Rather than increase their readers Marvel and DC rely on their loyal fanbase to just buy the higher priced comics. Both Marvel and DC make the majority of their money from their movies and tie in merchandise anyway.

When you only sell small numbers it's harder to keep the print cost per issue down. Marvel and DC do not have this problem. They could easily lower the price. The smaller guys need to sell at these higher prices to even make a profit. Hell, the series I worked on, both black and white, one was $8 for 50 pages and the other $5 for 22. That's insane. Not the best example since i dunno the print number of each. Rather small for the second one I know...and the dude wanted to make more than just break even.

Which is why I see single issues becoming a thing of the past. As for digital comics, there's a service coming called Longbox which is suppose to be the comics equivalent of iTunes where you can purchase comics. It'll be the same format as cbr though so you'd be able to read all your illegals through it but I'm hoping it'll get folks not reading comics to read more.

I prefer reading physical books though. I think (or hope) graphic novels will take over the industry. I like the idea of buying single issue digital comics and once collected into a trade you'd get a discount if you bought some of the singles digital issues.

Once Kindle comes out in color and in more hands, that will be an awesome way to buy and read digital comics.

I used to like the distribution method of manga in Japan but after learning more about it and the restrictions I'm not so keen on it anymore. Still, comics as 40% of all printed media is impressive. Almost every comic gets 20 pages a week bundled in a huge thick book with others aimed at the same target audience. Europeans comics are on the complete opposite side of the spectrum where it could take years to release a book but it'll be the highest of high quality.

What was my point again...? Oh yeah, the industry sucks and I blame the big two.

And kids only buy manga. The average age of the American comics buyer is around 30.

Damn kids. But I guess can't expect to shell out allowance on 44 pages of comics when for the same price could get a couple hundred pages of manga....of course the pacing is different and- I should just stop.

[KillerGremlin]

Um, so you're putting the onus on the creator to make a product that people will choose not to steal, and not the thief that unlawfully takes property that is not theirs? A creator and owner of property needs to rely on the good nature and approval of the thief to expect a return for providing a product or service? I'm all for competition, but competing with your own free product is absurd on every level.

Just three observations...
1) The definition of property. While I don't dispute that downloading is stealing, I will argue that defining what you stole becomes somewhat subjective. For instance, we both probably would agree that if I strolled down to the dealership and stole a car that would be stealing. However, what happens if I go to the dealership and make a copy of the car? It seems that much of the moral burden is on the original uploader. But what the heck, I'll play devil's advocate a little and argue that most uploaders are just trying to get content out there. I don't think torrents are killing comics, I think comics are killing comics. This current generation reads less and has less money. Why read the comics when you can go see Spiderman in theaters. To further add complexity, what about libraries? My public library (ranked number 1 in the entire United States, if that matters) allows you to check out comic books. Surely, checking out a comic book is no better than torrenting, right?

I am playing devil's advocate a bunch here. I hate downloading stuff, even music...(not so much movies because I go to the theaters like 3 times a week. Fuck the MPAA). Being poor and all I always try to support local stuff and lesser known artists/musicians/movies/whatever. I'd rather wire some money through Paypal to a struggling artist than steal their stuff....

Which brings me to points number 2 and 3. I cannot fault people for downloading Marvel or DC. Especially stuff that is out of print or hard to find. Much like my opinion about paying for the Beatles' music (that shit should be public domain by now! Fuck Paul McCartney! If you feel bad send Ringo a check!). But I do think it's kind of a good thing...making the artists step it up. Nowadays quality does help sell stuff.


If this is the moral paradigm that the internet is teaching us, I am for creating restrictions on it's use. All "sharing" and torrent sites should be made shut down immediately or esle our artist and creators ill cease to create. We're submarining our own cultural development so we can save a buck.

Shut down the torrents? Good luck. :p

I'm inclined to disagree though. I think the Internet is the next step in creativity and expression. It gives people with limited resources a public domain to become popular - IF they have quality to appeal. Since the creation of the Internet how many indie Comics and indie Musicians have you been turned on to? Without the Internet think about where you knowledge of comic culture or music culture would be.


I do agree with you though...support the artists. That's the bottom line and it should be.

[Professor S]

Just three observations...
1) The definition of property. While I don't dispute that downloading is stealing, I will argue that defining what you stole becomes somewhat subjective.

Actually it's not subjective at all. There are two types of property, real and intellectual. Real is protected by patent law, and intelectual is protected by copyright law. It's been this way for a very long time. If you take someone else's intellectual property without payment or permission it is legal and moral theft. There is no grey area.

I am playing devil's advocate a bunch here. I hate downloading stuff, even music...(not so much movies because I go to the theaters like 3 times a week. Fuck the MPAA). Being poor and all I always try to support local stuff and lesser known artists/musicians/movies/whatever. I'd rather wire some money through Paypal to a struggling artist than steal their stuff....

Which brings me to points number 2 and 3. I cannot fault people for downloading Marvel or DC. Especially stuff that is out of print or hard to find. Much like my opinion about paying for the Beatles' music (that shit should be public domain by now! Fuck Paul McCartney! If you feel bad send Ringo a check!). But I do think it's kind of a good thing...making the artists step it up. Nowadays quality does help sell stuff.

No, I can fault people because they are taking what is not theirs. They are thieves and stealing is immoral and illegal. How can you NOT fault people for performing moral and legal wrongs? Any explanation for this behavior is simply an excuse to make one feel better about being a theif, not a rational argument.

Shut down the torrents? Good luck. :p

You think they can't or won't do it? There are already draconian ideas floating around world government. In the end, we will all end up getting punished for the immoral and illegal behavior of those who steal intellectual property.

I'm inclined to disagree though. I think the Internet is the next step in creativity and expression. It gives people with limited resources a public domain to become popular - IF they have quality to appeal. Since the creation of the Internet how many indie Comics and indie Musicians have you been turned on to? Without the Internet think about where you knowledge of comic culture or music culture would be.

I agree with all of this, but most of these creators OFFER their product for free to get exposure. There is a difference in offering something and someone taking it upon themelves to to TAKE it because they can.

And non of what ou have said has made a thief cease to be a thief.

I do agree with you though...support the artists. That's the bottom line and it should be.

Agreed. I just don't think that should be optional when it comes to acquiring the fruits of their labor.

And Teuth, I agree with most of what you've said. Still doesn't excuse theft. That said, the industry needs to make adjustments to respond to the current realities.

[KillerGremlin]

Actually it's not subjective at all. There are two types of property, real and intellectual. Real is protected by patent law, and intelectual is protected by copyright law. It's been this way for a very long time. If you take someone else's intellectual property without payment or permission it is legal and moral theft. There is no grey area.

I would say the grey area is my local library, where I can - for example - take Alan Moore's Watchmen off the shelf (without paying, and I assume without his permission) and read it. I can also rent new release movies on DVD, new release music, old music, old movies, magazines, newspapers, and books (of course). All for free. The library pays for the media once and thousands of people have free access. The catch is the time limit on the media; in this case, 3 weeks for books and 1 week for everything else. What would you say about people who download a Watchmen torrent and delete it after 3 weeks?

No, I can fault people because they are taking what is not theirs. They are thieves and stealing is immoral and illegal. How can you NOT fault people for performing moral and legal wrongs? Any explanation for this behavior is simply an excuse to make one feel better about being a theif, not a rational argument.

I suppose I am rationalizing a bit, aren't I? I griped to BaB about this though. DC and Marvel are behind in that they need to get with the times and come up with a way to distribute comics digitally. For a limited period of time Marvel had a deal with some company and they released digital copies of popular comics like X-Men and Spiderman. They released the copies on DVD with all the issues up to a certain point. And the price was a heck of a deal. Releasing comics digitally will increase sales and allow them to lower prices. And like Teuthida said, with the Kindle becoming popular you have a huge potential market to read comics. Also, comic book stores are somewhat intimidating whereas buying content online is not.

I also do believe in public domain. For instance, I think it's sort of insane that I need to pay money for sheet music for composers like Mozart. That guy has been dead for over 200 years, his music should be free minus the paper and ink. I would certainly pay for a performance of his music though. Likewise, once all the Beatles are dead and all the people who recorded their music are dead; their music should become public domain. Who gets the money for their recordings? Corporations? Family members mooching off of a legacy while contributing nothing useful to society?

You think they can't or won't do it? There are already draconian ideas floating around world government. In the end, we will all end up getting punished for the immoral and illegal behavior of those who steal intellectual property.

I don't think they can do it. At least not in our lifetime. I think they might try. I don't really know. I do know it is major corporations like the RIAA and MPAA who are trying to control it "draconian style" as you might say. For example, in my lifetime I have never heard a sane person say, "Close down the libraries! They distribute content for free!" I think most people acknowledge that libraries are non-profit organizations with the intent on intellectual distribution. Libraries don't inhibit the sales of books. Or even if they do, after hundreds of years of living with libraries we still have authors writing books. What's up with that?

[Angrist]

The library pays for the media once and thousands of people have free access. ... What would you say about people who download a Watchmen torrent and delete it after 3 weeks? Not trying to get too involved in here, but I think you answered your own question. At least the library paid for it. And they don't pay regular prices (I assume). You pay for your library card, the money goes to the library, which buys books and stuff, through which some money goes to the creators. You can't compare that with torrents where everybody just gets what he wants without paying anything to anyone.

[KillerGremlin]

Not trying to get too involved in here, but I think you answered your own question. At least the library paid for it. And they don't pay regular prices (I assume). You pay for your library card, the money goes to the library, which buys books and stuff, through which some money goes to the creators. You can't compare that with torrents where everybody just gets what he wants without paying anything to anyone.

Actually, the original uploader pays for the content, be it the scanned comic or the ripped CD. The only thing the library might do better is buying in bulk: for example, my library buys multiple copies of popular media. However, the reason they buy multiple copies of popular media is because of the demand. Hundreds of more patrons want to check out that media.

And I do assume my library pays regular prices, although I could be wrong. Nowadays with Amazon I assume my library just buys stuff from major online retailers. Also I don't directly pay for a library card. Being a citizen of my city I get free access to my local library. Sure, some of the city's tax money goes towards the library but a lot of the money they raise is through donations. As I understand it this is how most public libraries work.

I forgot to add my Library charges a 1 dollar fee for movies. This fee is to pay for new and future movie purchases. This fee is not a royalty fee though.

[Professor S]

Actually, the original uploader pays for the content, be it the scanned comic or the ripped CD. The only thing the library might do better is buying in bulk: for example, my library buys multiple copies of popular media. However, the reason they buy multiple copies of popular media is because of the demand. Hundreds of more patrons want to check out that media.

And I do assume my library pays regular prices, although I could be wrong. Nowadays with Amazon I assume my library just buys stuff from major online retailers. Also I don't directly pay for a library card. Being a citizen of my city I get free access to my local library. Sure, some of the city's tax money goes towards the library but a lot of the money they raise is through donations. As I understand it this is how most public libraries work.

I forgot to add my Library charges a 1 dollar fee for movies. This fee is to pay for new and future movie purchases. This fee is not a royalty fee though.

Like Angrist points out, Libraries either pay for the item or the item is given to them for no charge. In either case, the producer of the item has full knowledge of the exchange and has given permission for this to take place. The creator/owner is still the person who controls what happens to their content.

And there are a ton of laws that libraries must abide by:

http://www.librarylaw.com/

Not only that, but the product in most cases must be returned to the Library so that others may borrow it at another time, while most people that steal music/movies/games etc. on-line do so with no intention of returning or deleting the content. More than likely they'll burn it to disc to use later. In any case, it's irrelevant because they have no permission to do so.

A better example of digital sharing would be if Libraries didn't offer copies of books and movies, but instead offered printing presses, DVD and CD recorders so that their members could come in and print themselves any books, movies or cds they like with no worry about returning them. Something tells me that any library that did this would be shut down immediately.

The bottom line is: If the owner of the content hasn't given you permission to use it/download it/save it, you are stealing. It doesn't matter if you plan to do what you deem moral with the content, you took it upon yourself to take what is not yours without the permission of the owner. That is theft. It's not your decision to make because it's not your property.

If you take something that does not belong to you without permission, you are a thief. Quite honestly, this is not difficult. It is as simple as law gets, both human and natural.