Thoughts on Superman [Archive]

BreakABone

02-20-2009, 12:50 PM

Like most threads these days, this comes from a discussion with TheSlyMoogle where he just bashes all that I hold dear because he is an evil evil otter.

Anyhow, I'm curious what's the general opinion of Superman around these parts? Do people still find him to be a too powerful character to be interesting? Is there any way to redeem that?

Professor S

02-20-2009, 12:55 PM

I don't think the affects of such power on the psyche has ever been properly explored when Superman is considered, unlike with Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. How has Superman almost never injured someone by accident as Clark Kent considering his power? When you can lift a million pounds, how do you know how to much you need to let up not to kill someone with a "gentle" touch?

Superman isn't too powerful in the books. He is written to be too perfect and we canot relate to that in an imperfect world.

Hell, even Christ made a few mistakes...

KillerGremlin

02-22-2009, 03:42 AM

Good thing we have comic nerds like Kevin Smith to tackle questions like 'Superman having sex.'

Brodie: It's impossible. Lois could never have Superman's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes could handle the sperm? I guarantee you he blows a load like a shotgun right through her back. What about her womb? Do you think it's strong enough to carry his child?
T.S.: Sure, why not?
Brodie: He's an alien, for Christ's sake. His Kryptonian biological makeup is enhanced by Earth's yellow sun. If Lois gets a tan the kid could kick right through her stomach. Only someone like Wonder Woman has a strong enough uterus to carry his kid. The only way he could bang regular chicks is with a kryptonite condom. But that would kill him.

http://www.aikida.net/comics/2008-08-06.jpg

KillerGremlin

02-22-2009, 03:53 AM

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081202.gif

There's one more...can't find right now.

Seriously though, Superman is so lame. He has ONE weakness, ONE. And he obviously is Clark Kent...the people of Metropolis are incredibly stupid. He is pretty boring.

Teuthida

02-22-2009, 05:53 AM

He's the first superhero and the template for all superheroes after him so you gotta cut him some slack.

Zen

02-22-2009, 11:51 AM

Not only is he the first ever, you have to admire a guy who despite having so many powers, lets face it, he could be an unstoppable force morals aside. Decides to be selfless, decides to fight out of love for the people of earth, he has no childhood trauma, no vengeance plot thickening inside of him, the guy simply does what he does because he can. Sure he might not be the greatest character, batman for example is more interesting (though i hate frank miller's batman :P) , but he is DEFINITELLY the greatest superhero.

Swan

02-22-2009, 03:46 PM

Breaking out the nerd right here KG, he is also weak to magic

BreakABone

02-22-2009, 08:58 PM

Breaking out the nerd right here KG, he is also weak to magic

Yeah came to point that out as well.

And technically he is also weak during a solar eclipse and on foreign planets that don't have the yellow sun.

Granted, those are extraordinary situations, but it does exist.

And I agree with Zen, but sometimes its hard to remember this when he is on his own, put him around a character like Batman or Wonder Woman and its an interesting dynamic.

Part of the reason I made this thread was because I read the most recent Superman/Batman comic which was just ludicrous, but it shows that Superman for all his strengths believes the best of mankind and it is the reason he does not solve all their problems or isn't everywhere at all the time.

TheSlyMoogle

02-23-2009, 02:17 AM

Part of the reason I made this thread was because I read the most recent Superman/Batman comic which was just ludicrous, but it shows that Superman for all his strengths believes the best of mankind and it is the reason he does not solve all their problems or isn't everywhere at all the time.

Yeah and that's a really lame reason.

Technically superman could fix everything, and he doesn't. What a wonderful person!

More so... Well more so it would make for a terrible story. That's the real reason superman in all his glory never fixes all the worlds problems. If he did there would be no reason to continue writing superman comics.

And for the record... Marvel > DC any day. Hell the X Men alone stomps all things DC. Even Jubilee is cooler than superman.

BreakABone

02-23-2009, 09:48 AM

Yeah and that's a really lame reason.

Technically superman could fix everything, and he doesn't. What a wonderful person!

More so... Well more so it would make for a terrible story. That's the real reason superman in all his glory never fixes all the worlds problems. If he did there would be no reason to continue writing superman comics.

And for the record... Marvel > DC any day. Hell the X Men alone stomps all things DC. Even Jubilee is cooler than superman.

You're bitter DC rage shows its face again.

I'm not saying that Superman can fix anything, and on a power level it is almost impossible to relate with him.

My point was simply that for all his powers and abilities, Superman sees the best in mankind which is why he has never enslaved us or ruled with an iron fist. He is damn near impossible to stop but has a down home, basic human nature to him.

Zen

02-24-2009, 12:12 AM

once superman tried stopping world hunger just to fail miserably, i cant quite remember the story but it was illustrated by alex ross. so its not like he hasnt tried going that extra mile and then some.

Thespis721

03-09-2009, 08:06 PM

Okay. I'm jumping in. And I'll admit. I have a bias. A bias against crappy super heros. I don't care if he's the first superhero. Or that he's a template. That's fantastic... if I lived in the 1940s.

We live in the 2000s now and there are so many better heroes out there. He's unstoppable except for an exceptionally rare material, and an exceptionally rare talent, he's died numerous times only to be brought back by reasons that don't quite make a whole lot of sense, he's completely unrelatable as a person since he's not even human and he shoulders responsibilities that no one could fathom. Superman is good for one thing. Creating stories about two people beating the living crap out of each other and destroying public property and causing explosions. (And even then, the Hulk does it better) But any other area of superhero mythos, another character does it better.

Angrist

03-10-2009, 12:14 PM

For me he's just the guy with his underwear over his pants.

Zen

03-10-2009, 12:43 PM

every other superhero has the same underwear problem so i fail to see the case here.

Professor S

03-10-2009, 01:21 PM

Thepsis has brought up something that I find frustrating about DC in general: The is no meaning in death.

Marvel has brought back it's fair share of deceased characters, but never to the same level as DC, who actually created an rediculous theme of multi-verses to explain their irresponsible cashing in on the death and resurrection of their iconic characters.

Batman is the latest example, where they killed Batman but didn't really kill him. All their press and even the name of the storyline (R.I.P.) talked about Batman's death, while the actual story faked Batman's death not once, BUT TWICE IN TWO BOOKS.

The classic example is the death of Superman, possibly the most overhyped crapfest I've ever read with the introduction of a worthless villain. Luthor should have killed Superman, and it should have been brilliantly conceived and Luthor should have been severely conflicted over finally achieving his goal and then relieved when Superman returned. THAT'S A STORY. Ripping off the incredible Hulk to serve as a death device is NOT.

In the end, I've been left with no reason to read DC because I never believe that any of their plots have any meaning because the mortal threat each hero is under has no meaning. They killed him? Wait a month, he's fine.

Marvel on the other hand, has recently taken a harder stance on death, especially with Captain America, and its a change that has won critical acclaim and financial success.

BreakABone

03-10-2009, 01:34 PM

Thepsis has brought up something that I find frustrating about DC in general: The is no meaning in death.

Marvel has brought back it's fair share of deceased characters, but never to the same level as DC, who actually created an rediculous theme of multi-verses to explain their irresponsible cashing in on the death and resurrection of their iconic characters.

Batman is the latest example, where they killed Batman but didn't really kill him. All their press and even the name of the storyline (R.I.P.) talked about Batman's death, while the actual story faked Batman's death not once, BUT TWICE IN TWO BOOKS.

The classic example is the death of Superman, possibly the most overhyped crapfest I've ever read with the introduction of a worthless villain. Luthor should have killed Superman, and it should have been brilliantly conceived and Luthor should have been severely conflicted over finally achieving his goal and then relieved when Superman returned. THAT'S A STORY. Ripping off the incredible Hulk to serve as a death device is NOT.

In the end, I've been left with no reason to read DC because I never believe that any of their plots have any meaning because the mortal threat each hero is under has no meaning. They killed him? Wait a month, he's fine.

Marvel on the other hand, has recently taken a harder stance on death, especially with Captain America, and its a change that has won critical acclaim and financial success.

Whoa whoa...

Time out... Flag on the play.

DC nor Morrison ever declared that Batman RIP would see the actual death of Batman, if I remember correctly they stated at the end that Bruce Wayne would no longer be Batman.

And they delivered.

And two, they didn't fake kill off Batman, they used a plot device to remove the character. Everyone knows his faith, its not like he will magically re-appear and then have to explain where he has been.

And you can not be serious about DC doing, and Marvel being better at it.
I won't even touch Jean Grey.
But look at how they friggin mangled the whole Spiderman unmasking thing to create one of the greatest clustermesses in all of comic-dom. Not only did they do all of that, the comic has been a lot worse for it.

I mean maybe I'm not a long time reader, but I don't remember Superman or Batman dying too often.

Sure they bought back Hal Jordan and Green Arrow, and even now it is used as a punchline in most comics since most everyone comes back, but that is part of the fun of it. And usually death has a consequence and the return has a reason.

Professor S

03-10-2009, 02:39 PM

Whoa whoa...

Time out... Flag on the play.

DC nor Morrison ever declared that Batman RIP would see the actual death of Batman, if I remember correctly they stated at the end that Bruce Wayne would no longer be Batman.

Yes, but that is NOT the message they wanted to expose to the media. Even Moriison constantly played with the concept of the story, trying to gain attention.

And they delivered.

And two, they didn't fake kill off Batman, they used a plot device to remove the character. Everyone knows his faith, its not like he will magically re-appear and then have to explain where he has been.

I didn't say they actually killed Batman and brought him back, I said they "fake" killed him and did so on a giant splash page

Exhibit "A":

http://blog.newsok.com/nerdage/files/2009/01/batman-death.jpg

And you can not be serious about DC doing, and Marvel being better at it.
I won't even touch Jean Grey.
But look at how they friggin mangled the whole Spiderman unmasking thing to create one of the greatest clustermesses in all of comic-dom. Not only did they do all of that, the comic has been a lot worse for it.

Spiderman didn't die in that storyline.

The Captain America death was better than anything DC has ever done with the same type of plot. Why? Because they kept him DEAD. At least for now... Marvel could always make me eat my hat once they start pushing for the damn Captain America and Avengers movies. Now thinking of it, I'm calling his miraculous return to coincide with those movies.

But still, they've handled it expertly so far, and my main pount was "lately" and Jean Grey's death was never pimped to the extent of Superman's or Batman' fake death, but I will concede they have abused the property to the point of meaninglessness.

I mean maybe I'm not a long time reader, but I don't remember Superman or Batman dying too often.

No, but when they killed them it was for essentially the reason of furthering pocket books, and not storylines (t-minus 5 seconds until Bruce Wayne is back as Batman once sales start slumping). They created massive events, with little substance or continuing impact (unless you consider Steel a good addition). Captain America was done right.

Sure they bought back Hal Jordan and Green Arrow, and even now it is used as a punchline in most comics since most everyone comes back, but that is part of the fun of it. And usually death has a consequence and the return has a reason.

But thats not my point. My point is that the constant returns deminish any reason to emotionally invest in these characters, as I never fully emotionally invested in Jean Grey once they started offing her every decade or so. And with the entire multi-verse abortion, they have built in an automatic do-over button where they can simply erase any previous continuity any time they feel like it. Its a device for LAZY writers and creators, not a genuine way to build a universe, IMO. Say what you will about Marvel, but they didn't go in such a intellectually corrupt and confusing direction.

Can you tell I hate the multi-verse? It's garbage. Utter, complete, bankrupt garbage.

But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong... ;)

BreakABone

03-10-2009, 03:03 PM

Well as far as I know, the multiverse laid dormant for almost 20 years between Crisis on Infinite Earth and Infinity Crisis in 2005.

And the death from that eventful was meaningful, and outside of the Flash who returned just at the end of Final Crisis, I don't believe anyone else was bought back from the dead.

I still don't agree with you on the whole Batman RIP thing since I guess I followed it closely, they always said that Bruce would no longer be Batman, and half way through most people assumed that Morrison would break Bruce psychologically to the point where he would need to hang up the cowl for a bit.

Two things with the Splash image, one I think it went more for iconic as it shows Superman has failed to save even the greatest of Earth's heroes and that evil truly had won the day. And second, Bruce Wayne is dead, his spirit or whatever lives on. I can understand how you mean it was glorified, but I mean they lay it out at the end of the next issue. I feel that was important instead of dragging it out for years, they at least acknowledge that he will be back.

I don't think you need to kill a character to ruin any momentum, and Spiderman unmasking was a HUGE HUGE HUGE deal. Then it was retconned within like 6 months in the most retarded way possible, and it is not like the fallout had been worth it. Just... ARGH dam you MARVEL!

Not gonna disagree with you on the Captain America thing, but my thing with Spiderman and to a lesser extent Jean is that Marvel is not beneath trying some cheap changes to booster sales.

Sure Superman has been killed and Batman's back broken, but I mean Marvel unmasked Spiderman, killed the Captain, I won't mention Jean again, wiped out most of the mutant population and made a new color Hulk to show him when he really gets mad. :lolz:

But thats not my point. My point is that the constant returns deminish any reason to emotionally invest in these characters, as I never fully emotionally invested in Jean Grey once they started offing her every decade or so. And with the entire multi-verse abortion, they have built in an automatic do-over button where they can simply erase any previous continuity any time they feel like it. Its a device for LAZY writers and creators, not a genuine way to build a universe, IMO. Say what you will about Marvel, but they didn't go in such a intellectually corrupt and confusing direction.
Well that's the thing, I mean the difference between Superman and Jean or any of them is it doesn't happen often to the same character.

Superman has died once as far as I know. Batman same deal. Superboy Prime. The Flash is a bit questionable as they have killed multiple Flashes, but different characters and the sort.

And usually when they are bought back, they try to do it in a way in which it has ramifications to the world around it. I mean outside of Jason Todd coming back from his reality punch.

And sometimes, its the lesser moments sprinkled around comics that you would miss. Like Green Arrow talking to Hal Jordan at his gravesite. Or Robin working on a way to bring back Superboy or even the Cult that Elastic Man joins in order to resurrect his wife.

Can you tell I hate the multi-verse? It's garbage. Utter, complete, bankrupt garbage.
I said most of my piece on the multi-verse up top.

But again Marvel isn't above this... they just simplified it by creating an entirely new line of comic books so they didn't have to muddle with their own complex and complicated history.

Professor S

03-10-2009, 03:13 PM

I think my main problem is with the multi-verse, which gives me the expectation that no death will be permananent. I never question whether or not a dead character will be brought back, and if they do there is a built in explanation, so to me all the drama is removed. I no longer care.

IMO, if you are going to bring back a character you killed, part of the penance should be trying to piece together some storyline where the return makes sense.

And for the record, I think the Knightfall storyline was great, and the back breaking and recovery made sense (hated the art, though). They also wiped out the mutant population at Genosha... but they didn't bring them back either... except for Magneto... but that's a mess, I'll agree.

As for the Ultimate Universe, that is a hard separation, so I don't think thats comparable to the multi-verse. Two separate continuities.

BTW, how did they bring back Magneto after Morrison/Wolverine beheaded him? Magneto really is a character that was more powerful to that book in death than in life, and I think Morrison was trying make the argument that he should have stayed dead hoping the next writer kept him that way.

Teuthida

03-10-2009, 04:31 PM

Or Robin working on a way to bring back Superboy or even the Cult that Elastic Man joins in order to resurrect his wife.

Elongated Man. For shame.

I don't like the multiverse either. I do enjoy the JSA though who for the most part are from Earth-2.

The only Batman books I enjoy are the miniseries contained within Gotham.

And yes, they did ruin Spider-man beyond repair. I read up to One More Day wondering what stroke of genius writing was going to happen to right his world. Aunt May was dying, he was a fugitive with his identity known...and then.......yeeeeaaahh. Cop out.

Read what you like. I have no stock in the main books. Can't make everyone happy.

Thespis721

03-12-2009, 08:41 AM

I am still holding to my anti-DC opinion. Both universes have their share of dead people coming back to life. The biggest Marvel screw up is the whole Onslaught storyline.

However, Steve Rogers is assassinated. I don't think he's coming back. They didn't make the Hulk green when the movie came out, they kept him red. They won't bring back Steve Rogers just because of the movie.

Gwen Stacy was killed. She never came back. (Yes, I know the whole clone saga, but that was built in to fail. She never ACTUALLY came back, they were just expanding on a storyline from earlier in the series that related to her.)

I know they brought back Bucky, but they brought him back... like 60 years later. They couldn't even wait more then 20 to bring back Jason Todd.

The point of the matter is that DC makes heroes that cannot die. Like Superman. (He is the purpose of this thread, right?) And when they die and inevitably return, you have less invested in your characters. When Marvel does something, there's a 50-50 shot it'll take. Wolverine gets his skeleton ripped out, Steve Rogers is dead, Harry Osborne is dead, Gwen Stacey is dead, etc...etc...

That's why we care more about Marvel characters then DC characters and that's one of the reasons why Marvel does infinitely better then DC.

BreakABone

03-22-2009, 05:21 AM

I am still holding to my anti-DC opinion. Both universes have their share of dead people coming back to life. The biggest Marvel screw up is the whole Onslaught storyline.

However, Steve Rogers is assassinated. I don't think he's coming back. They didn't make the Hulk green when the movie came out, they kept him red. They won't bring back Steve Rogers just because of the movie.

Gwen Stacy was killed. She never came back. (Yes, I know the whole clone saga, but that was built in to fail. She never ACTUALLY came back, they were just expanding on a storyline from earlier in the series that related to her.)

I know they brought back Bucky, but they brought him back... like 60 years later. They couldn't even wait more then 20 to bring back Jason Todd.

The point of the matter is that DC makes heroes that cannot die. Like Superman. (He is the purpose of this thread, right?) And when they die and inevitably return, you have less invested in your characters. When Marvel does something, there's a 50-50 shot it'll take. Wolverine gets his skeleton ripped out, Steve Rogers is dead, Harry Osborne is dead, Gwen Stacey is dead, etc...etc...

That's why we care more about Marvel characters then DC characters and that's one of the reasons why Marvel does infinitely better then DC.

Actually Harry Osborne isn't dead, and he was bought back in the most retarded of ways and this is coming from someone who read about the Superboy Prime time alterating punch.

Actually, the whole Osborne corp drives me nuts.

And just because a character is dead doesn't mean Marvel can't find a way to screw them up. I mean remember when Gwen's childrens with Norman were revealed? Remember how they had superpowers? Yeah that happened!

And Marvel has its share of non-killable characters, hell I think most of Weapons X can't die, I know its damn near impossible to kill Wolverine and Deadpool.

BreakABone

03-22-2009, 08:04 AM

Teuthida

03-22-2009, 09:39 PM

Swan

03-22-2009, 11:14 PM

He doesn't do that...

He does this!
http://clampettstudio.com/images/archives/dc/TV1001_Superman-M_Waldman.jpg

KillerGremlin

03-23-2009, 01:46 PM