America Votes 2008

[Bond]

http://www.polkelections.com/home/content/Image/Ashley%20Photos/City%20Election.jpg

Here we go again!

Several important senate and house seats are up for grabs in addition to the presidency.

[Professor S]

IMO, Obama has the margin he needs to overcome the Bradley Effect and assure his victory. I give McCain a 1 in 5 chance of winning.

If Obama wins, we'll know by midnight tomorrow at the latest as the electoral map and states in contention line up for a quick Obama victory. If McCain is goling to win, its going to be a long night as we'll have to wait for Ohio and those midwestern states to shake out and the lawyers to shut up.

[GameMaster]

BREAKING: A small group of teenagers in Baltimore are opting not to vote! Are the media and news pundits to blame?

[KillerGremlin]

i'm voting for my Brotha' From Anotha' Mutha'

[BreakABone]

i'm voting for my Brotha' From Anotha' Mutha'

I'm not running until 2020 (it's the earliest I can run) so how are you voting for me? :ohreilly:

[Bond]

Make your own electoral map:

http://www.270towin.com/

[GameMaster]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/synthoid/mccain_logo-2.png

[Professor S]

BTW, regardless of political opinion, I'd like to ask that all Americans on this board make it a point to get out and vote tomorrow... even Jason1.:D

There is nothing more American than participating in democracy.

[Happydude]

I hope Palin wins...:sneaky:

[Angrist]

So they can keep making fun of her? :p

[Teuthida]

Voted.

Went before 6am. There was a decent sized line outside. Let us in a little after 6. Inside was quite crowded. So many little old ladies running about the place. We had old voting booths from the 50s. My dad went in before me and it wasn't working. Had to have someone come over to fix it. At least I know my vote went through.

EDIT: Wow, I lucked out. The news is showing lines at some places going around the block.

[TheGame]

If Obama wins today will be a historic day for America, and if Mccain wins... well... It'd prove a serious point about polls and will probably lower all the 'drama' on the news leading up to elections.

[manasecret]

I went to the poll at about 7:30 this morning. The polls opened at 7:00 a.m. I got in and about in about 20 minutes. Everything moved smoothly.

The voting apparatuses looked like new-fangled ones. It was all digital, and it had a large LCD screen with multiple buttons and a button wheel at the bottom. It looked like a touchscreen but wasn't, in fact they even had to write in multiple places to warn people of that fact. You had to enter a four-digit code for the machine to start the voting process, which was given to you by someone running another apparatus just for that purpose, who only gave you the code after you gave him the ticket that you received from the other people at a table that checked your name to the list of voters.

[Bond]

Absentee ballot is so the way to go. It is a little less fun though.

[KillerGremlin]

Fuck electronic voting. I did it the old fashioned way, with paper.

Anyway, I left school at 5:00am to get home to vote. I voted around 7:30. Obama for the win. Now I can sit back and relax.

There's a lot of inbound traffic in Chicago for the Obama rally, it's cool as hell...I may walk over there later.

[KillerGremlin]

I'm not running until 2020 (it's the earliest I can run) so how are you voting for me? :ohreilly:

and what party do you represent?

[BreakABone]

and what party do you represent?

Going to hold that close to my chest until I officially announce my candidacy.

Also, made need your assistance with something sometime soon. Not sure.

[Professor S]

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[Bond]

Earliest polls close at 7 PM ET. Live blog at GameTavern!

[manasecret]

Dah Terry Tate has become stale. Yes, somehow I have stopped loving his constant smack down of those that ask for it. That guy talking about facebook, though, that was funny.

[Professor S]

Dah Terry Tate has become stale. Yes, somehow I have stopped loving his constant smack down of those that ask for it. That guy talking about facebook, though, that was funny.

Blasphemy! Terry Tate never gets old, and you know this, BAYBEE!! Even Sarah Palin agrees!

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[manasecret]

Haha I can't not love Terry Tate, you're right. (I saw that Palin one here somewhere before.) But I guess his one-off, 30 second clips just don't induce the same laughter in me as those storyline ones he used to do.

[Bond]

Low production values, good content:

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[BreakABone]

CNN had an interview with Joe The Plumber, and I realize he is supposed to represent the Average "Joe" but he just seems to have talking points that he can't connect and when he stumbles he goes on the defensive.

They really should not have played him out this long.

And go go McCainites! :D

[Professor S]

An FYI for everyone, I am officially out of campaign mode and my "politics as sport" blood is now moving and I'm nore excited by numbers and and the drama of it all than ideals. Its like the superbowl for me.

In fact, right now I know I shouldn't be looking at all the talk of exit polling... but I just... can't... help it!:D

And Bond, I guess you're voting for McCain again, or is cap-in-trade enough to have to obstain entirely?:confused:

[Bond]

Nah, I voted weeks ago.

Where are you finding these exit polls? I know the networks can't show them until voting closes.

[Professor S]

They can't show the overall exit polls, but they are breaking up the exit polls by demographic.

[Teuthida]

http://media.myfoxny.com/election/2008topraces/foxmap.html

[Bond]

Indiana is holding close. A must win for McCain.

[BreakABone]

This shall be a fun night.

Thus far
McCain 8
Obama 3

But only two states have been called.

[Bond]

77-34, Obama.

McCain is surprisingly ahead in Virginia, still holding a lead in Indiana.

[Ginkasa]

ABC has Obama for 102.

[BreakABone]

ABC has Obama for 102.

I think you will get that all night when different companies have different requirements for calling a state.

I tend to stick to the more conservative approach in case anything drastically changes.

[KillerGremlin]

I'm watching NBC and flipping to ABC and CBS on commercials. I'm avoiding CNN and FOX, they can go fork each other. I might flip to the liberal media on comedy central for shits and giggles later tonight. I'm sure they will have some great biased insight.

[KillerGremlin]

Also, made need your assistance with something sometime soon. Not sure.

i already told you, i don't swing that way!

[BreakABone]

i already told you, i don't swing that way!

Get a few drinks in you.. and never say never....

Anyhow, I am watching CNN
and right now it's
Obama 174
McCain-49

What is everyone using?

[Dylflon]

Woooooooooooo.

[Teuthida]

Using CNN:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/cnn-election-coverage

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/

[Bond]

It's over. Obama wins.

[Ginkasa]

Pretty much yeah.

[BreakABone]

Well, it's time to pop out the hopium.

I guess we can call it a wrap.

[Happydude]

not yet...unfortunately, after the southern states are counted, it might get really close.

all of them are going McCain so far. and Texas has 34 votes alone so...

[Professor S]

What actually has surprised me this election is how both Sununu and Dole lost their spots in the Senate even though they were both very centrist, especially Sununu.

Obama has won, and I congratulate him and his supporters. At the very least the next year or so is going to be very interesting and part of me is honestly excited to see what wil happen as a political observer. The next two years at least are going to very very different from the last eight (or possibly 28), for the better or worse. I truly hope its for the better... cause... you know... I live here. :)

Hell, at least I'll be able to get some slee tonight instead of being up until dawn the last two elections.

[Dyne]

How can you guys be calling it already?

[Bond]

It's impossible for McCain to win because he lost both Ohio and Pennsylvania.

[BreakABone]

How can you guys be calling it already?

Obama will carry California, Oregon and Washington which puts him in the ballpark of 280.

Unless, McCain pulls off some miracle in one of those states, we may as well welcome our new President.

[Professor S]

It's impossible for McCain to win because he lost both Ohio and Pennsylvania.

To add to Bond's comments, there were only a few states that were truly up for grabs and the rest are heavily one party or another. Obama doesn't have to worry about losing California, for example, and McCain didn't have to worry about Texas.

With many of these swing states going toward Obama, and Florida, North Carolina and Virginia moving towards Obama, its safe to call the election. On a bright note, it looks like the Bradley Effect is good and dead. Another positive sign for US race relations.

[Teuthida]

Obama won. :D

Weird to not feel obligated to announce I'm moving to Canada after a presidential election like I did the previous two.

[Vampyr]

Glory.

[BreakABone]

I really am at a loss for words here...

Congrats to our new Pres Elect.

[Bond]

Here's to hoping Obama is a centrist. I'd prefer not to regret my vote.

[Swan]

I would find it funny if Obama turns out to secretly be a Black Panther

[Acebot44]

Not that theres anything wrong with that

[TheGame]

Here's to hoping Obama is a centrist. I'd prefer not to regret my vote.

Ditto.

I like how he actually won the election by a large margin. It shows that people can change and make judgements off of who is running and not directly what party they're in. Though honestly I think if Mccain played his cards better he would have had a chance to make things closer or even win.

[GameMaster]

McCain 2012

[Angrist]

On life support? :p

[Vampyr]

Just have to say both candidates gave great ending speeches.

Obama's was freaking amazing though.

[BreakABone]

It's funny how many people don't get the EV college. I was watching the first few hours of the election with my co-workers and kept having to explain to them the importance of the EV number and really only thing that mattered.

I wonder if that system will ever be done away with.

[Acebot44]

Heres (http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0810/callie-bp.html) a link to some great pictures of Obama's campaign.

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0810/images/callie/21.jpg

[manasecret]

Thanks for those, Ace.

[Professor S]

Obama's was freaking amazing though.

Obama's spedch was actually very encouraging for me. He remained centrist in his language and his word usage was even much more stern when referring to international threats than it was during the election.

This is going to be interesting and I wish the President Elect the best. Regardless of disagreements he my and our President-Elect and deserves that respect and support. This recent history od such disrespect for the office based on differences of opinion needs to stop.

The election is over and hopefully he is honest in his appeals for bipartisanship. Time will tell.

[TheGame]

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The first 2 minutes of the video is bad enough. I like how they're trying to blame Palin, even though Palin was Mccain's decision. She wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for him picking her.

[manasecret]

Damned sexist conservative media. :p

[BreakABone]

I agree with Jon Stewart on this.

They sat on this story until after the election? What would they not have told us if she was elected VP? I think it is important to have known when casting a ballot. Though like O'Reilly said, some of this stuff she could have been taught on the job but still.

[Bond]

The problem here is that the GOP has drifted away from intellectual, fiscal conservatism (William F Buckley and Ronald Reagan), and has moved to small-minded, social conservatism (Sarah Palin and George Bush).

[Professor S]

The problem here is that the GOP has drifted away from intellectual, fiscal conservatism (William F Buckley and Ronald Reagan), and has moved to small-minded, social conservatism (Sarah Palin and George Bush).


Did someone say William F Buckley? Who is he? ;)

I 100% agree. The Palin pick never should have happened and hopefully this will teach Republican strategists that the social conservative is no longer the key to victory... its the pragmatic conservative.

Example: Palin was brought on board to do one thing... keep Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio and a few other red swing states in the Republican fold. She failed to do so because the demographics of these areas have shifted.

On the other side, Palin's choice killed McCain in "purple" states like PA and New Hampshire who are filled with social progressive but affluent and educated independents who like McCain before Palin threw a wrench ion the machinery.

Now I'm not saying Palin cost McCain the election, because she didn't, but the point is that the social conservative is hurting the party in elections and Republicans need to go back to the realm of ideas where they have succeeded in the past. The problem is social conservatives are uncomprimising and hold a powerful voting block that they are more than willing to withold if they are now cowtowed.

The Republican party is in trouble and can pretty much guarantee to keep losing elections until they begin to see the young guns of the party like Bobby Jindal and Charlie Crist as the future.

[Jason1]

What about Aaron Schock? Maybe hes not very well known yet...he probably will be eventually. Hes a local Republican Big wig 27 year old who thinks hes pretty cool. Just became the youngest person in the House at age 27.

[The Germanator]

Oh man, what a night!!! I haven't posted in a bit while on tour, but election night was incredible! I partied a bit too hard in Los Angeles that night, but it was a great celebration there (though it sucks that prop 8 didn't pass.)

I thought McCain's concession speech was the best speech he's given his whole campaign. He's a great man and has a lot of class and that speech showed it.

Anyway, I'm pleased that Obama won and I am looking forward to what his presidency holds for our country.

[BlueFire]

The problem here is that the GOP has drifted away from intellectual, fiscal conservatism (William F Buckley and Ronald Reagan), and has moved to small-minded, social conservatism (Sarah Palin and George Bush).

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/11/06/republican-vote-election-oped-cx_ee_1107eaves.html

[Vampyr]

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/11/06/republican-vote-election-oped-cx_ee_1107eaves.html

I think Bond is right and there will be a huge transformation in the republican party over the next 4 years. It's going to be a shift away from social conservatism, and towards what the Republican party was originally founded upon.

I think at the front of this change we'll see people like John McCain, Joe Liberman, Mike Bloomberg, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. A republican party made up of that is one that even I could vote for.

[TheGame]

I think Bond is right and there will be a huge transformation in the republican party over the next 4 years. It's going to be a shift away from social conservatism, and towards what the Republican party was originally founded upon.

That's part of the reason I voted for Obama too. Because of Mccain would have won dispite all his and palin's issues, they wouldn't have changed to the party I know they can be. How they respond next election will be interesting..

[Professor S]

What about Aaron Schock? Maybe hes not very well known yet...he probably will be eventually. Hes a local Republican Big wig 27 year old who thinks hes pretty cool. Just became the youngest person in the House at age 27.

I'm not familiar with him, but I was thinking more along the lines of Bobby Jindal, and I mention him a second time because I think he's a great candidate. Mitt Romney is another I liked during the primaries, but I think he fell apart when he tried to do a McCain and get all bible belt when he was obviously uncomfortable doing so. Hopefully this election showed that pandering to the religious right only loses the suburbs, and its the suburbs that win elections. Just look at Pennsylvania.

Newt Gingrich is another name thats from the past but really has always been a forward thinking, idea man for the Republican party, and he was responsible for much of the success of the 90's in working with Clinton.

As for voting for Obama to change the Republican party, I would agree except for one thing: The Supreme Court. I imagine that at least 3 justices will retire under Obama's presidency, and he'll have to opportunity to place several judges that will be able to legislate from the bench and have to opportunity to reinterpret the consitution. This is not an abortion issue for me, its a property rights issue, and leftist judges have shown to be under the wrong side of that argument.

[KillerGremlin]

I thought Obama's Grant Park speech was pretty weak. But the guy looks exhausted, and I'm sure most of it was improvised. But I didn't vote for the guy because of his speeches. Already Obama is saying he wants to free prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and start giving people there fair trials in American Courts. That's some good stuff. Guantanamo Bay = unconstitutional.

[Bond]

It's funny how that, in many ways, the Democrats have become our constitutional friends.

[GameMaster]

It's funny how that, in many ways, the Democrats have become our constitutional friends.

When we step off the ship at Plymouth Rock, let us have a feast with them upon the 26th of November!

[Professor S]

I thought Obama's Grant Park speech was pretty weak. But the guy looks exhausted, and I'm sure most of it was improvised. But I didn't vote for the guy because of his speeches. Already Obama is saying he wants to free prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and start giving people there fair trials in American Courts. That's some good stuff. Guantanamo Bay = unconstitutional.

Hate to break it to you, but its not. Its not even technically against international law, as the Geneva accords only cover uniformed combatants representing a sovereign nation.

And by the way, it was our left leaning "constitutional friends" in the Supreme Court that ruled that local governments can force homeowners to sell to large corporations because it increases the tax base. It was the conservative judges that voted against it. The Supreme Court is where the constitution is dying, not the legislative branch. This was the main reason why I was against Obama, as he has publicly stated that the Constitution "doesn't go far enough", which ignores the entire point of the document (a list of what the government WILL NOT do). If Obama's presidency fails, which I sincerely hope it doesn't, the legislation can be fixed by a change in power. Supreme Court justices are lifetime appointments by the President and their effect will be felt for two generations, if not more.

EDIT: I removed my prt about the patriot act, as I think it would have taken the discussion away from the topic.

[KillerGremlin]

Hate to break it to you, but its not. Its not even technically against international law, as the Geneva accords only cover uniformed combatants representing a sovereign nation.

And by the way, it was our left leaning "constitutional friends" in the Supreme Court that ruled that local governments can force homeowners to sell to large corporations because it increases the tax base. It was the conservative judges that voted against it. The Supreme Court is where the constitution is dying, not the legislative branch. This was the main reason why I was against Obama, as he has publicly stated that the Constitution "doesn't go far enough", which ignores the entire point of the document (a list of what the government WILL NOT do). If Obama's presidency fails, which I sincerely hope it doesn't, the legislation can be fixed by a change in power. Supreme Court justices are lifetime appointments by the President and their effect will be felt for two generations, if not more.

EDIT: I removed my prt about the patriot act, as I think it would have taken the discussion away from the topic.

Fair enough. I'm not going to pretend to know enough about foreign policy and Supreme Court legislation regarding this subject.

I just know that Guantanamo Bay sounds bogus from what I have read.

[Professor S]

Fair enough. I'm not going to pretend to know enough about foreign policy and Supreme Court legislation regarding this subject.

I just know that Guantanamo Bay sounds bogus from what I have read.

Legally its not bogus, or at least not yet. Morally and ethically? Well, thats another conversation and a very long and difficult one at that. Personally I'm for GITMO, but I also think some aspects of it need to change, as I don't believe that people should be held indefinitely with no evidence, but I also don't believe that Constitutional rights or Habeus Corpus should be conveyed to possible terrorists and non-citizen's either.

There needs to be a middle ground where the detainees are afforded some form of recourse but not to the point that it dierectly parallels our legal system. What makes up that middle ground, I couldn't tell you.

[Jason1]

Hopefully Obama brings back that tax on 1 million dollar or more estates. Dead people dont know they are paying taxes...

[Professor S]

Hopefully Obama brings back that tax on 1 million dollar or more estates. Dead people dont know they are paying taxes...


Estate taxes destroy American wealth and PREVENT the middle class and lower classes from advancing their status and wealth. Essentially, if you like the way the US class system currently works, if you want to call it clas system, then you should LOVE estate taxes, because they maintain the status quo, keep rich people rich and poor people poor.

On the surface estate taxes seem somewhat reasonable, but like most non-income tax systems, once you take a hard look and see how they are applied, the gilding quickly wears thin.

If you would like to know how in detail, I'd be happy to tell you, but you have a habit of skimming my posts and I'd prefer not to write the example if it's not going to be read as it is a personal anecdote I care deeply about and changed my view of government forever. And I've written about it before, but that doesn't mean anyone bothered reading it.

[Jason1]

No, I really am somewhat curious as to how taxing a dead rich guy could possibly hurt the middle class and poor people. Im allready calling conservative bullshit on whatever you post next, but I'll at least read it.

[Professor S]

No, I really am somewhat curious as to how taxing a dead rich guy could possibly hurt the middle class and poor people. Im allready calling conservative bullshit on whatever you post next, but I'll at least read it.

LOL! Well, thanks for the courtesy. The reason why estate taxes work in reverse of what you think is this:

Estate taxes don't tax dead people, they tax the inheritors and prevent the transfer of wealth from one generation to the next and taxes the same money twice as taxes have already been paid on that estate. Here's how it works, at least in the case of my family.

My parents and grandparents bought into the rural suburbs of Philadelphia back in the late 1960's. My parents were not what you would call rich, my father being a construction worker and my mom a teacher/social worker. My grandfather and grandmother worked at a non-profit trade school.

My parents bought their house for $36,000.00 on 5 acres and that was a stretch for them at the time, and my grandparents bought about 20+ acres for not that much more.

When my grandmother died, my parents inherited the land and had to pay taxes on the value of the property at its current value, not what they were lucky enough to pay in 1968. So when estate taxes, federal, state and local income tax, capital gains, and every other tax were levied on my parents, they owed well over $100,000.00, if not more (they never told me the final amount).

So this "harmless" tax system, that only effects the "rich", forced my middle income parents to take out a second mortgage to cover the taxes that were due in a few motnhs, and then to pay off the taxes my parents had to sell my grandmother's farm which had been in the family for 30 years.

Guess who bought the property? A rich developer who then sub-divided the land, leveled the house that was built in 1706, and slapped up 15 McMansions all next to each other and made millions off of the deal.

So in essence, the estate taxation system combined with all the rest of the taxes ripped wealth from the middle class and handed it to the rich. This is what progressive taxes achieve: The status quo.

Keep in mind, I'm not even mentioning how the local government tried to ruin the whole deal, the deal my parents needed to pay the taxes to keep their house, by extorting the developer for 10 free acres. This is just about how taxes fucked my parents by forcing them to sell and probably thousands of people in the same circumstances.

Taxes on investment wealth prevent the transfer of wealth from generation to the next, and they force people to do things they otherwise would not. My parents wanted to turn the property into a horse farm. Now its an eyesore filled with yuppie douchebags who complain about the fact they can see my dad's work truck from the road. When you work all your life to leave your children with more than you had, it should be a blessing to them, not a curse that creates a financial nightmare spanning two years of lawyers, accountants, developers and local and federal agancies.

Jason, I'd just like you to keep this in mind when thinking about taxes and government control, supporting them because they're intended to do good: Actions always have unintended circumstances and intentions are meaningless when reality comes knocking.

[Jason1]

That sounds like a mildly sad story, but overall im sure the Estate tax is a good thing.

[Professor S]

That sounds like a mildly sad story, but overall im sure the Estate tax is a good thing.

Ok, you asked me to explain how the estate tax perpetuates the status quo and inhibits the growth of wealth in the middle class, and I gave you a specific example.

Your counter?

"I'm sure the Estate tax is a good thing"

...

*sigh*

Maybe when it happens to you you'll start to change your mind. Until then, I think discussing politics with you is pretty pointless. There is a reason why most conservatives started out as liberals in their youth. I have a feeling your fall from grace will be especially hard with the amount of blind trust you put in the federal government.

[Jason1]

I only put blind trust in a Liberal government. We'll see how well Obama can mop up the Bush mistakes.

[KillerGremlin]

I only put blind trust in a Liberal government. We'll see how well Obama can mop up the Bush mistakes.

I wish I was a CEO at AIG.