SSB Brawl Gripes

[Typhoid]

Now, I love this game. And I play it frequenty.

However, my main problem is with everyone's character choice. Everyone is always the top 5 strongest characters. Game&Watch, Zelda/Sheik, Lucas, Snake and Falco. I'd count Meta Knight in there, but nobody plays as him.

I have played with a wide variety of people who play, with various ages, and 90% of them are one of those characters. And it bugs me for 2 reasons:

1) They talk about how good they are, not realizing the fact they have one of the best characters; and when they play with a weak character and lose, they claim it's because it's not their character.

2) It makes the game repetative and not fun after the millionth time of playing those characters over and over and over again.


I'm off to go play a game of brawl now, which includes none of those characters.

[BlueFire]

The only guy I use on that list is Lucas, but I'm not that good with him.

My best is Ike. Second best is Wolf.

We should play. :)

My main gripe is online play.. Mario Kart is god compared to this game in terms of wifi.

[Angrist]

I haven't played the game in weeks, but so far I really like Ike. But I made it a rule for myself to not just play the best character, but the most fun ones. So I'll also be playing Link, Meta Knight, Pikachu and some more.

[Bube]

What, those are the strongest characters?! How could those be strong!!??

I'm a Wolf, Kirby, Marth, Sonic and Link guy. Sometimes Fox, when Wolf annoys me a lot (usually happens, still haven't gotten used to him).

Why's Falco strong? I mean, how is he different than Fox or Wolf?

And I hate Snake. His moves are too slow.

[mickydaniels]

Game & Watch? Falco?


Who are these people you're playing against?

[BreakABone]

My main people aren't on that list sans maybe Snake and even that is questionable, but I was telling BlueFire the same thing when we played yesterday.

It's a giant Nintendo orgy for the most part, what's the point of sticking with the same 3-4 characters. You may not like everyone, but its something different.

Reminds me of a game style, someone came up with on another forum. Called Big Brawlin' where you basically do random character/stage without waiting afterwards to see stats. It's fun and unpredictable.

And no Ike on that list? You obviously haven't played BlueFire yet.

[Dylflon]

Haha, I like how you don't list the top 5 rated characters but rather the characters your friends beat you with.


Though Game & Watch is one of the best characters.



PS: I never say I'm super good at Brawl.

PPS: On most characters tier rankings Lucas ranks around the middle, and my old character Luigi ranks even lower.

[BreakABone]

I hear a lot of folks say that Snake is a godly character, and I can understand.

Zelda is wicked in FFA because she can spam the fireballs to keep people at a distance.

I think any combination of Fox/Falco/StarWolf are deadly because of that damn final smash. I mean it is by far the most overpowered one if used in the right hands. *Looks at Geo*

But really, I think most anyone is deadly in the correct hands. I thought Diddy Kong sucked until I met someone online who knew how to use the bananas to his advantage.

Same deal with the Ice Climbers, One Winged Angel is pretty good with them.

I loathe Pikachu though because a lot of folks (not gonna exclude myself) just spam his thunder attack until the person has to jump and use lightning. It's really awful.

[BlueFire]

Snake is "godly" when you exploit his glitch (the running/sliding up- smash)

[Typhoid]

Haha, I like how you don't list the top 5 rated characters but rather the characters your friends beat you with.



No, those are the characters with little to no weaknesses against any other character except those other characters, and strong, adamant advantages or are on par with other characters.

*- Edit: And like I said, the problem I have is everyone is those characters, making the game practically always the same. I'm sure I'd complain about ROB, Pit, Marth and Meta Knight if anyone ever played as them. But even if they played as them I'd be fine with not complaining considering it would be a change of scenery and a change of pace and not the same battle over and over again. - *

I looked it up the other day, and all those characters had far more advantages against characters, then the rest of them.

And then I realized everyone plays as those characters.

I forgot to include Marth.

http://smashgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/matchup.jpg

[GameMaster]

I'm still sorely bitter they didn't include everyone from Melee. It just wouldn't have been that hard to do.

The gameplay is slower too. I haven't played Melee in a LONG time. But I'm sure I would be absolutely blasted away by the speed of that game now.

And at the end of the day, I have to conclude that I just don't care for Final Smashes. For serious gameplay at least. Its fine if you're just casually playing with friends though.

Closing Comments: At its best, Brawl feels like nothing more than a beta release. Missing characters, lackluster online play, and an overall 'incomplete' feeling haunt this game from beginning to end. There's nothing worse than a game that pales in comparison to its predecessor and thats exactly where Brawl stands. That being said we hope a real follow-up to Melee is released in time for 2008 holiday season.

Overall Grade: 1.7 / 10.0

[Dyne]

:lolz: I have no problem with the game, just that the online play ruins it for me. Otherwise it's awesome.

[BreakABone]

1) Where'd you get the chart from Typ? Kind of interesting. And some of it makes sense, but others I guess it depends on the play style.

2) GM I prefer the slower pace of Brawl, Melee was always too hyper for me and it helped that it had a lot more scrolling stages in rotation such as PokeFloats and Big Blue.
And most of the characters removed were the dopplegangers. Though, I really wish they had changed some people. They still couldn't give Ganon a friggin sword!
3)Yeah, the online is hit or miss though I am finding more recently to be a hit.

[Jason1]

Its strange how things work...in the original, I would say Kirby was the strongest character. In brawl, it went to Game and Watch, without a doubt.

Now, Kirby is very good again, and I feel that Game and Watch isnt nearly as good as he was in Melee.

[GameMaster]

I just want my Mewtwo back. :(

Lucario is a very loose variation of him. Not the same at all.

All this complaining makes me feel like owning someone with my Pikachu or ROB! :D

[BreakABone]

I just want my Mewtwo back. :(

Lucario is a very loose variation of him. Not the same at all.

All this complaining makes me feel like owning someone with my Pikachu or ROB! :D

Owning would imply you win at times. :p

But sure after I finish with Uber tonight. I will gladly demolish your Pikachu if you like.

[Fox 6]

Game & Watch? I love the guy. 2-D all the way!


Ever think that people play as them because they are as you said, good characters? Just makes sense.

:rolleyes:

[uber_paddler]

I just want my Mewtwo back. :(

Lucario is a very loose variation of him. Not the same at all.

All this complaining makes me feel like owning someone with my Pikachu or ROB! :D

You'd best not be complaining about Lucario. He's easily one of the best characters in the game.

[Angrist]

I kind of agree with GameMaster. Why remove Mewtwo, but put in another clone, StarWolf?

I haven't gotten into Lucario yet.

[Yoda9864]

I like how I play with the characters that have the most disadvantages according to that chart: Ganondorf and Captain Falcon.

Just shows how good I really am :D


For the record, in the original I played as Falcon, Fox, and Luigi the most (in that order)

In Melee I played as Ganondorf and Falcon.

Brawl I play as Ganondorf and Falcon.

They definitely aren't the best players to play with, but I think they are some of the most fun to play with.

And yes, I agree that they didn't need two clones of Fox this time around. Lose Falco and put in an original character.

[Angrist]

Or rather, give Falco, Ganondorf and Toon Link original movesets.

They could have done so much fun stuff with Toon Link... down-B: iron boots; side-B: catapult; up-B: deku leaf; B: sword spin.

[BreakABone]

Whoa we don't talk about the heavenly deity known as Toon Link.

He is so much better than Adult Link IMO.

Granted, most of the stuff you named really wouldn't make much sense in the game. Iron Boots? Deku Leaf?

Okay Defu Leaf could work but I prefer his offense now.

[Fyacin]

Brawl is too slow and floaty. It's too easy to recover with the auto ledge grab (Even when you're facing the other way!) and without shuffling and wavedash approches suck. The best strategy is to just wait for you're opponent to get sick of projectile spam, and then punish them when they approach. Never tried online because my internet is too slow. Character wise is kind of a "meh" for me. I don't get R.O.B. there are tons of better characters then him IMHO. Snake feels out of place, and wario is stupid. On the other hand, Pit is pretty cool, and Olimar I think was implemented well. Why did they even bother bringing back Marth if they were just going to nerf him to hell though? :mad: I would rather have Sigurd or Hector or something. I like what they did with Star Wolf, he feels cool, but Falco is too cloney Ganandorf definetly needs his own moveset, he is horribly wierd right now. WW link is a powerhouse.

[BlueFire]

Wolf is awesome and stronger than Fox and Falco. Falco is more of a clone than Wolf. I would have given all three of them different final smashes, though.

[BreakABone]

Wolf is awesome and stronger than Fox and Falco. Falco is more of a clone than Wolf. I would have given all three of them different final smashes, though.

Especially Mr "Personally, I prefer the air!" Falco

Like I said feel that the Landmaster is overpowered, couldn't they have done something else. Maybe Fox calls in the Airwing for support and it fires at the stage.

Maybe Falco could get something similar but it goes across the top of the screen and drops bombs.

I like the Final Smashes when there is a hit/miss quality about them like anyone who needs to line up their oppenents (the swordsmen) or most of the projectiles like Samus and Mario. I don't like the ones that just seem to be unstoppable unless you are really really good at avoiding the entire stage for like 10 seconds.

[Yoda9864]

Ganandorf definetly needs his own moveset, he is horribly wierd right now.
I think Ganondorf's moveset is fine. You definitely have to employ a different strategy that Cap Falcon. But i do wish they would've let him use his sword. Nintendo was just mean by putting his sword in is his taunt and not letting you use it for real.

[Typhoid]

Ever think that people play as them because they are as you said, good characters? Just makes sense.

:rolleyes:


Did I miss the part where suddenly that makes the game more interesting?
I know that's why people play as them. I'm not an idiot.
That wasn't my problem, if you read.
My problem is the lack of diversity, because 90% of everyone plays as them, so each game is practically the same clone of the last.

[BreakABone]

Did I miss the part where suddenly that makes the game more interesting?
I know that's why people play as them. I'm not an idiot.
That wasn't my problem, if you read.
My problem is the lack of diversity, because 90% of everyone plays as them, so each game is practically the same clone of the last.

I wish Thespis was a more active poster, he would tell you the joys of Big Brawlin.

Random characters. Random stages. Makes it so the matches aren't always the same.

Just curious, who do you pick? I mean if you are picking different people would assume its somewhat different strategies each match.

[Typhoid]

I usually pick random characters. It changes it up all the time, makes it more fun because you have to adapt.

But if I'm picking characters, I'll usually take Pikachu, Link or Sonic. I've been trying Zero Suit Samus lately, but I'm not too fond of her.

And sometimes I'll play as DK, just so I can be annoying, grab people, and walk off the edge of a level with them.

[BreakABone]

I usually pick random characters. It changes it up all the time, makes it more fun because you have to adapt.

But if I'm picking characters, I'll usually take Pikachu, Link or Sonic. I've been trying Zero Suit Samus lately, but I'm not too fond of her.

And sometimes I'll play as DK, just so I can be annoying, grab people, and walk off the edge of a level with them.

See that's the mentality I have.
My go to characters are Toon Link and Lucario, I personally think am best with them. Others may differ, but really I just like messing around with people for the most part.

I've always avoided Jigglypuff (apparently someone told Uber :lol: ) and some others.

Not too keen on Donkey Kong tried out his final smash and really not sure how you get the beat going. I would use Luigi more often but his recovery move, the charge up is not something I am use to (don't use it for pikachu either) so he is too great of a risk for me though he has an awesome final smash.

I just have bad experiences with cheapachu or spamachu whichever you prefer.

I would say whenever you get your router, you could mix it up but I know you got other priorities at the moment.

[Angrist]

Ok, I have this stupid question. Can you play as ZSS without finding a smash ball first??? I ask because I saw a target smash record for ZSS... and now the Typhoid says he's been trying her.

[Bube]

Yes, you can start as her. Choose Samus while holding R on a GC/Classic controller, or Z on your Wiimote+Nunchuck, until you get to the level selection screen.

But the best thing I learned was about Mushroomy Kingdom. For some reason, every time I played that level it was underground. I never even thought there was a ground level (although the picture in the selection screen had me wondering). Then I found out you can press buttons and choose either part. Two levels in one! :D

[Typhoid]

In order to be Zero Suit Samus, just select Samus as your character, hold "R" before someone presses start.

[Angrist]

Thanks. How about Zelda/Sheik and the Pokémon?? Are they random?

[BreakABone]

Thanks. How about Zelda/Sheik and the Pokémon?? Are they random?

Sheik and Zelda are the same as Zero Suit I believe, hold down the R button.

The Pokemon Trainer once you select him, you can move the finger over his profile pic to select the Pokemon you want to start with. Personally, I prefer Squirtle. The only problem I found with Pokemon trainer which is why stopped using him is you are vulnerable during the Pokemon switch so open for attack.

[Bube]

Zelda/Sheik is like Pokemon Trainer. You click on Zelda or Sheik in the little character box on the character selection screen, after you've placed your chip.

[Angrist]

Thanks. Right now I really want to play the game... but my/our Wii is still at my family's. And I'm busy with an exam and a report.... I'll play it in a week!

[Dylflon]

Looking at your chart Sean. Lucas has disadvantage against a whole load of characters!

Yaaaaaaay!

Also, I play Lucas because I was getting mega bored with Luigi and couldn't win one on ones with Ike. Lucas requires a little more strategy and is a butt-ton more fun to play as once you get the hang of his play style. I don't play him because I looked up what characters are the best online and resolved to be the est at Brawl by using top rated characters.

Also, if you noticed we haven't been changing out characters lately, it's because we're all practicing for the Smash tournament at PAX. Once that's over, I'll gladly switch to random characters or play more matches as Ike.

[Typhoid]

You're taking this far too personally, Dylan.

[BlueFire]

I usually pick random characters. It changes it up all the time, makes it more fun because you have to adapt.

But if I'm picking characters, I'll usually take Pikachu, Link or Sonic. I've been trying Zero Suit Samus lately, but I'm not too fond of her.

And sometimes I'll play as DK, just so I can be annoying, grab people, and walk off the edge of a level with them.

If you want to be more annoying, grab a character with Bowser's side B and fall of the stage. If you both have one stock left, it automatically makes Bowser the winner.. haha

[Nighthawk]

my mains are pikachu, meta knight, falco, and snake...currently pikachu is my favorite (i'm not a very big thunder spammer, or so i think :p )...

but i just "hate" Ike, 'cuz my cousin is insanely great with Ike... there's no way to counter his smashes, and his smashes, doesn't matter up/left/right, they swoop 180degrees. as he uses smash to the left, and I'm right behind him, he still is able to hit me and send me out... that happened to me a lot so Ike just pisses me off

[BreakABone]

my mains are pikachu, meta knight, falco, and snake...currently pikachu is my favorite (i'm not a very big thunder spammer, or so i think :p )...

but i just "hate" Ike, 'cuz my cousin is insanely great with Ike... there's no way to counter his smashes, and his smashes, doesn't matter up/left/right, they swoop 180degrees. as he uses smash to the left, and I'm right behind him, he still is able to hit me and send me out... that happened to me a lot so Ike just pisses me off

I've learned from playing Bluefire enough that you can dodge most of Ike's offense because he has to telegraph it pretty damn sure.

The problem is when he does connect, he can kick ass. I got KOed at like 60% by Ike before. Middle of the stage me thinks.

[Angrist]

Ike is great. :D So incredibly strong, with a great and diverse moveset.
His biggest weakness is his low speed.

[Bube]

i'm not a very big thunder spammer, or so i think :p
You are.

The problem is when he does connect, he can kick ass. I got KOed at like 60% by Ike before. Middle of the stage me thinks.
60% seems to be the norm. It always happens, especially when I use Marth. I've flown off with 0% a few times though :D

Ike is great. :D So incredibly strong, with a great and diverse moveset.
His biggest weakness is his low speed.
Thank goodness. He's almost invincible if he's swinging that sword anyway.

[Ironfoot]

I'd count Meta Knight in there, but nobody plays as him.


Batman: "Then you're gonna love me." SLAM! lol

Metaknight is by far my best character. I have won endless matches with him against countless friends. It doesn't seem like a lot of people like to play him, which kinda amazes me because he can be extremely lethal if you know how to use him.

Ike is definitely tied to a close second, despite his many disadvantages. It's a matter of knowing what move to use at the right time, because time is completely against Ike.

Game & Watch is third place, it helps to have past experience with him.

My other regulars include King Dedede, Luigi and Wolf. That said, many characters have weaknesses, but I think its up to the competence of the player to overcome these weaknesses (or imbalances) and try to make the character as strong as possible.

For example, King Dedede is very slow with low reflex but his attacks are extremely powerful. Since many characters in Brawl have fast reflex, Dedede could be seen as a disadvantage, but in reality his strength is his ability to quickly tally up the damage percentage on his enemies. Once you figure out which of his moves can do this, you can use one of his powerful moves like his forward A smash, which can easily send an opponent flying. He has a great ability to cover all sides of him with his hammer including above, and also his up + B move is very useful to get out of tight situations. But I think what it comes down to is figuring out how to cover a character's disadvantages by finding and correctly utilizing its advantages. Not all characters work offensively.

I do have one gripe I can think of, and that's making Fox/Falco/Wolf have the same Final Smash. One word: cheap. Even if its powerful, they could've made Fox's final smash having him pilot an arwing and shooting the other players.

[Fyacin]

Ike is awesome if you can figure out a good approach. When he gets in your face, you are going to die ;D lol

[Angrist]

I had my first serious online matches. They were nice. I won a bunch. In the end I was in a group where I was probably the worst guy. I stayed in the group because I liked the challenge and the lessons. :)

Anyone up for some matches?

[BlueFire]

I need internet in my new apartment..

sometime this week, I hope :(

[Angrist]

Had some nice games with Mickydaniels. :D We had no lag at all.

[Angrist]

Ok, here's a gripe: why doesn't the game automatically remove inactive players? :S
You're playing online games, but there's always 1 character that's not being controlled. You have to wait an extra minute between every game, and most people (including me :D) go after him for a cheap KO.

Edit: I also don't like the addition of CPUs when you don't have 4 players.

[mickydaniels]

I don't know.
Many times they do return.

[mickydaniels]

Biggest gripe is of course the stupid online and the friend codes.
I can only save up 64, and I'm quickly running out of room. Time to delete people I never play against?


Also, if someone is online in a basic brawl, why can't there be some kind of way to notify them that friends are on?

[Dyne]

I've never had a problem with online friend limits. Hell, my Xbox Live is my biggest list and I've NEVER played with more than 10 of them.

[BreakABone]

I've never had a problem with online friend limits. Hell, my Xbox Live is my biggest list and I've NEVER played with more than 10 of them.

I feel bad getting rid of people but my Xbox Live list fills up every few weeks and I just get rid of people I haven't played with in months.

The problem is the list is now becoming real friends and close online people so don't know what gonna do when more people want to be added.

[mickydaniels]

I've never had a problem with online friend limits. Hell, my Xbox Live is my biggest list and I've NEVER played with more than 10 of them.

lol

Well, that's good for you, but for me it's a big problem. My friends list has 57 registered names on it, and maybe 25% is dead weight. I'm trying to get it lower than that, since I do play with most of the people there.

[Angrist]

It sucks when you get online and you see your friends in a basic brawl... You have to contact them through an IM or so.

Micky, Dyne and others, up for some brawls in a few hours?

[mickydaniels]

These days I'm always on from 10am-1pm or so. If you want, I can go now.

Hooray job searching/floundering/flat out being jobless !!!!

[Angrist]

Hm I'm cooking diner at the moment. I'll just check if you're on after I eat up.

[BreakABone]

I wanted to see if there had been any improvement on the home front in terms of character usage.

(Blame Phil for the bump)

[GameMaster]

I feel like battling you after one of our late-night AIM chats.

[Angrist]

I've seen a whole bunch of characters online. It's not always the same ones.

The ones you see least in my experience:

3. Mario
2. Wario
1. Diddy

[bobcat]

If I finish the Space Embassy thingo, does that unlock all the chars? I hope it does >:)

[Angrist]

You'll have to go back to some levels to find the last character(s). Of course there are multiple ways to unlock them, but just beating the SSE isn't one of them.

[bobcat]

ic ic....well i will try to do it manually then after :)

[GameMaster]

ic ic....well i will try to do it manually then after :)

You're a paying customer, why should you have to do extra work to gain access to a character you've lawfully payed for?

I say you pwn your game in the face by using GameShark or some similar device.

Take that, Nintendo!

[Angrist]

GM, when will we meet in battle? You're on the west coast, right? Maybe early in the morning for me, when you stay up late? 8AM here is 0AM there.

[GameMaster]

Lets play tonight! I will wait for you on MSN.

[Angrist]

Your tonight or my tonight? Because I'm going to bed around 0 AM.... which is 16PM for you.
If you mean your tonight, what time do you want me to wake up?

[GameMaster]

Is 8 or 9 AM too early?

That's only 11 PM or 12 AM here which is easy.

You may want to sleep in though since it's the weekend.

[Angrist]

8:30 ok? :) 11:30 for you. I'll set my cucco.

[GameMaster]

See you then :)

[Angrist]

I feel so stupid. >_< I hadn't added your friend code yet!

[GameMaster]

I thought maybe it was too early and you slept in but I also entered your code in once I realized it was time for us to battle. We can try again tonight (morning for you).

Let me know when you're awake. :D

[BreakABone]

We can dance tonight as well.

[Angrist]

Let's make it 8:15 (11:15) this time? Gives me a reason to wake up. :)

[Angrist]

Make it 11:30 instead. I didn't go to bed early enough.

[Dark Samurai]

I hate to bring back a week old thread, but I didnt realize you guys played Brawl until I read this thread!

I use a TON of characters... or can use them lol, but I'm a pro with MetaKnight, Diddy Kong, King DeDeDe, Kirby, Wolf, Lucas and C. Falcon.

I can also use, Samus, Zero Suit, Link, Sheik, Mario, Ganondorf, Fox, ROB and G&W, and I'm training myself to use Pokemon Trainer

Yeah, I'm multitalented lol, so whenever you guys are up for a match, count me in... I'd love to play you guys.

[GameMaster]

My Pikachu wants to own you :D

[Angrist]

What's your friend code? Mine's 2621-4329-5083.

[Dark Samurai]

Awesome... willing competitors!

I added my Wii and Smash code to my sig if you want to add me... Angrist and GM, I added you both.

[BreakABone]

Awesome... willing competitors!

I added my Wii and Smash code to my sig if you want to add me... Angrist and GM, I added you both.

http://www.gametavern.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18272
You've also been added to the Wii Mega Fun Friend Code thread.
You can find mine and many other friend codes in there.
Add you when get home.

[Angrist]

http://www.gametavern.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18272
You've also been added to the Wii Mega Fun Friend Code thread.That's quite the compliment, because I haven't even been added to that list. Even though I've asked for it like 3 times. :(

[Dark Samurai]

Angrist, you up for a match?

Edit: I added you too BaB

[Angrist]

Ehm how bout in 30 minutes? I'm having diner at the moment.

I can't make it long by the way, I'm studying for my last exam tomorrow.

[Dark Samurai]

Dinner?! I'm about to have lunch! lol

Yeah, no prob, just a few matches...

5 stock, no time?

[BreakABone]

That's quite the compliment, because I haven't even been added to that list. Even though I've asked for it like 3 times. :(

Weird I added you like weeks ago.
Maybe you weren't looking hard enough.

[Angrist]

Hm..... maybe you're right, maybe not.

Ok, I'm on now. I added you, hopefully we'll get registered soon enough.

[Angrist]

Haha, great games. :D Last one.

[Dark Samurai]

Haha, great games. :D Last one.

The last one was hilarious! I couldnt believe myself...

[Angrist]

I guess that's why you don't play with items? :D
I'm not that good with Lucario btw, so I expected to lose...

I loved Luigi's up-B. Took a while before I landed those, but once I did... sweet. Still was a close call though!

[BlueFire]

People I have yet to play: Angrist and Dark Samurai.

I want to make time... I just hope my internet connection doesn't screw us over.

D.Samurai, I'm pretty good with Ike, Wolf and Lucas.
My semi-ok characters are Zero Suit Samus, Ness and Luigi.

[BreakABone]

People I have yet to play: Angrist and Dark Samurai.

I want to make time... I just hope my internet connection doesn't screw us over.

D.Samurai, I'm pretty good with Ike, Wolf and Lucas.
My semi-ok characters are Zero Suit Samus, Ness and Luigi.

I already warned him about you.

[Angrist]

BTW DS, the lag wasn't that bad, was it? A bit late, but still playable.

I usually play Ike/Link/Luigi/Lucario with whom I'm decent-good. After a while I like to vary a bit with Meta Knight, Samus, Zelda, some others. Sometimes Pikachu, but it's hard not to over-use Thunder.