Why McCain will Win

[Professor S]

Not to start up political topics again, but klets start up a poltiical topic!

I think the following is a perfect example that barring any medical ailment, McCain is going to win my a significant majority of votes comes November.

"I respect Sen. John McCain's service to our country," Obama said on the Senate floor this morning. "He is one of those heroes of which I speak. But I can't understand why he would line up behind the president in opposition to this GI Bill. I can't believe why he believes it is too generous to our veterans. I could not disagree with him and the president more on this issue."

The McCain campaign responded by issuing a sharply worded and lengthy statement in the senator's name. McCain notes his support for an alternative to the Webb measure, but points out his own military service and points out Obama's lack thereof.

"It is typical, but no less offensive that Sen. Obama uses the Senate floor to take cheap shots at an opponent and easy advantage of an issue he has less than zero understanding of," McCain said in the statement. "Let me say first in response to Sen. Obama, running for president is different than serving as president. The office comes with responsibilities so serious that the occupant can't always take the politically easy route without hurting the country he is sworn to defend. Unlike Sen. Obama, my admiration, respect and deep gratitude for America's veterans is something more than a convenient campaign pledge. I think I have earned the right to make that claim."

[/quote]"Senators Graham, Burr and I have offered legislation that would provide veterans with a substantial increase in educational benefits. The bill we have sponsored would increase monthly education benefits to $1500; eliminate the $1200 enrollment fee; and offer a $1000 annually for books and supplies. Importantly, we would allow veterans to transfer those benefits to their spouses or dependent children or use a part of them to pay down existing student loans. We also increase benefits to the Guard and Reserve, and even more generously to those who serve in the Selected Reserve.

"I know that my friend and fellow veteran, Senator Jim Webb, an honorable man who takes his responsibility to veterans very seriously, has offered legislation with very generous benefits. I respect and admire his position, and I would never suggest that he has anything other than the best of intentions to honor the service of deserving veterans. Both Senator Webb and I are united in our deep appreciation for the men and women who risk their lives so that the rest of us may be secure in our freedom. And I take a backseat to no one in my affection, respect and devotion to veterans. And I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did.

"The most important difference between our two approaches is that Senator Webb offers veterans who served one enlistment the same benefits as those offered veterans who have re-enlisted several times. Our bill has a sliding scale that offers generous benefits to all veterans, but increases those benefits according to the veteran's length of service. I think it is important to do that because, otherwise, we will encourage more people to leave the military after they have completed one enlistment. At a time when the United States military is fighting in two wars, and as we finally are beginning the long overdue and very urgent necessity of increasing the size of the Army and Marine Corps, one study estimates that Senator Webb's bill will reduce retention rates by 16%.[/quote]

SOURCE: http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0508/Obama_criticizes_absent_McCain_on_Senate_floor_McCain_hits_back_hard.html

Obama's political expediency and pandering (he recently expressed two differing opinions on the threat of Iran this week) are going to catch up with him once a stark contrast is made between him and a more centrist and to be quite honest, thoughtful candidate.

Polls even now are showing McCain ahead of Obama nationally and with a consdierable (I'd guess between 10-20% at most) of Hillary backers, including my wife, dead set against Obama and eager to vote for McCain if/when Hillary is out of the race. I don't see this improving for Obama barring a age related incident from McCain, especially once the contrast between the two is made more evident during head to head debates where McCain can attack Obama on issues Hillary couldn't.

SOURCE: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

[Dyne]

I'm REALLY not into politics, and I didn't read any of that, but I think John McCain should win purely on the grounds that we can't just let whatever Bush started - in ways of "war" - go slack all of a sudden. All of that shit needs to be cleaned up properly.

[Typhoid]

I think John McCain should win purely on the grounds that we can't just let whatever Bush started - in ways of "war" - go slack all of a sudden. All of that shit needs to be cleaned up properly.

The thing is that now it's so fucked up that it's hard to actually end it, or slow it down at all.


If you keep troops there, but bring some home, there will be an influx in the insurgency, so then to counteract that more troops than were initially there when you recalled them, will be deployed back to get rid of the insurgence.

So then after the insurgency dies down a little again, you bring some troops home. Then the influx of insurgence starts, and you need to send double the amount of troops you brought home back there again.

So each time, you're actually adding more troops, and the "bringing troops home" thing, is just only at face value.

[Jonbo298]

Getting sick of all the political bullshit going on. McCain is as crooked as Bush. Obama is becoming as crooked as Hillary. The American public is too damn stupid to realize this. Yeah, I'm preferential to Obama, but I'm getting sick of him also. First he says he'll talk to Iran. Then he goes the Bush route "No talks".

I hope America elects someone who fucks us over more. Maybe then we'll realize the mistakes we've been making for so long. I mean jesus, we re-elected Bush in '04, that says enough.

[Jason1]

You just keep telling yourself that professor, if it makes you feel better about that fact that you know Mcain wont win in November.

[DeathsHand]

Polls even now are showing McCain ahead of Obama nationally

I don't think either McCain or Obama would be a shoe-in, and I may be misremembering this (and a brief search came up with no hard numbers or facts), but I believe polls before the democratic race officially began showed Clinton well ahead of Obama...
So...

Personally, I don't like the Hussein thing... I've had enough of Hussein.

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zwZ--jw_YIE&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed>

Edit:
And I dunno what polls you're looking at, but these here random charts (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html) I found told me that Obama is not only ahead of McCain in the polls, but is further ahead than Hilary in a Clinton vs. McCain scenario...

But again... "I believe polls before the democratic race officially began showed Clinton well ahead of Obama"... Polls are polls...

[GameMaster]

There is no way McCain will win. The nation at large is wholly tired with Republicans. Even Republicans are tired of Republicans. The last 8 years have been a fiasco.

It'll be a Democrat.

[manasecret]

DH, regarding the YouTube video, OMGWTF.

My opinion is the United States of America should be run by someone from the United States of America.

He's from the U.S.

But he's Muslim.

Why do you think that? He wasn't raised Muslim.

But I don't agree with that. I feel like there's a lie behind that.

Do you feel like that's a smear tactic in politics to label him as a Muslim?

Yeah I do think it's a smear tactic, but I think we have the right to know.


Hahahahaha oh gods I had my face in my hands and crying laughing at the same time watching that.

And the best one:

I just don't feel like putting a black man in there. I ain't prejudice or nothing, I just... just... don't think he should be in there.

[Bond]

Getting sick of all the political bullshit going on. McCain is as crooked as Bush. Obama is becoming as crooked as Hillary. The American public is too damn stupid to realize this. Yeah, I'm preferential to Obama, but I'm getting sick of him also. First he says he'll talk to Iran. Then he goes the Bush route "No talks".

I hope America elects someone who fucks us over more. Maybe then we'll realize the mistakes we've been making for so long. I mean jesus, we re-elected Bush in '04, that says enough.
I think McCain is actually one of the less crooked politicians. His history of employment consists of: serving in the military and being a senator. He is not independently wealthy. In fact, he is very likely the poorest Presidential candidate in recent history.

Now, the Republicans certainly have no business winning this election. But if they are to have a chance, John McCain is the man. He is basically a moderate Republican who is willing to compromise (see bills with Kennedy and Feingold). If Obama or Clinton were elected they would certainly not govern as moderates, they would govern to the far left as a reactionary policy toward the Bush administration.

On that same note, if Obama and Clinton were to run on the same ticket, I believe they would undoubtedly win. But I am sure their egos will get in the way and that will not happen. McCain has several superb VP choices: Jindal, Romney, and Crist. All three are young, intelligent, and engaging. My money is on Romney, but I would personally prefer Jindal. Crist is a fantastic governor of Florida as well, but I'm afraid he's too moderate for McCain to pick him.

[Angrist]

Argh, I'm crazy! :( I actually dreamed about this. I was in America (or America was in Holland) and all people were saying "I'm voting for McCain, because the democrats can't sort it out who will represent them." Stuff like that. And that McCain has fought against the germans.

[Professor S]

On that same note, if Obama and Clinton were to run on the same ticket, I believe they would undoubtedly win.

That I agree with 100%. What will give McCain the win is the turnover from Hillary supporters who believe, and I think rightfully so, that Obama is probably one of the worst if not THE worst candiate ever to run for the presidency based on experience and substance. Not to mention his constant sprinklings of Marxist philosophy throughout his campaign...

And I dunno what polls you're looking at, but these here random charts I found told me that Obama is not only ahead of McCain in the polls, but is further ahead than Hilary in a Clinton vs. McCain scenario...

I linked to the poll I was referencing. Its the Rasmussen poll. Also make sure to pay attention to the demographics polled when taking polls seriously. For their general poll, they use citizens who are likely to vote and place them head to head. Polls are polls

You just keep telling yourself that professor, if it makes you feel better about that fact that you know Mcain wont win in November.

Thanks for the insight. :uhh:

[Jonbo298]

I think McCain is actually one of the less crooked politicians. His history of employment consists of: serving in the military and being a senator. He is not independently wealthy. In fact, he is very likely the poorest Presidential candidate in recent history.

Now, the Republicans certainly have no business winning this election. But if they are to have a chance, John McCain is the man. He is basically a moderate Republican who is willing to compromise (see bills with Kennedy and Feingold). If Obama or Clinton were elected they would certainly not govern as moderates, they would govern to the far left as a reactionary policy toward the Bush administration.

On that same note, if Obama and Clinton were to run on the same ticket, I believe they would undoubtedly win. But I am sure their egos will get in the way and that will not happen. McCain has several superb VP choices: Jindal, Romney, and Crist. All three are young, intelligent, and engaging. My money is on Romney, but I would personally prefer Jindal. Crist is a fantastic governor of Florida as well, but I'm afraid he's too moderate for McCain to pick him.

Still doesn't change my mind on all 3 of them. McCain can look less crooked, until you give him power. One of the rare senators I've seen who didn't seem so crooked was Ernie Chambers (just retired recently because he had been in for quite a long time). He was a little on the nutty side (tried dividing Omaha into 3 districts that was clearly segregated if you lived here, you would know. Also the fact he tried suing God last year), but he wasn't afraid to say what was needed. He understood what people probably needed.

[Jason1]

Okay, anyone who votes Republican in this election, is a 100% certified jackass. The Republicans have put the country in shambles, yet you people want to elect another one. Bunch of racists.

[Jonbo298]

Whoa now, calm down a bit Jason. Seriously.

[Dyne]

Okay, anyone who votes Republican in this election, is a 100% certified jackass. The Republicans have put the country in shambles, yet you people want to elect another one. Bunch of racists.

Jason1, please don't make unwarranted attacks on people. Thank you. :)

-Phil

[Jason1]

Jason1, please don't make unwarranted attacks on people. Thank you. :)

-Phil

I would hardly call them unwarranted, but fine. I didnt target anyone specifically.

[Professor S]

Okay, anyone who votes Republican in this election, is a 100% certified jackass. The Republicans have put the country in shambles, yet you people want to elect another one. Bunch of racists.

That might be the most unintentionally funny post in the history of this forum. Don't worry, I take no offence. To be offended I would have to take any of your political comments seriously.

But seriously, is that how you really feel? Have you been so jaded as to view anyone with differeing political views as "jackasses" and "racists"? If so, I feel more sympathy for you than any type of animosity. You might want to see a professional...

[Jason1]

I guess I just get upset when people for some reason dont have enough common sense to see that electing another Republican would be terrible for this country.

[Typhoid]

I don't think it has as much to do with what someone is catagorized as, but rather who they actually are.

[Professor S]

I don't think it has as much to do with what someone is catagorized as, but rather who they actually are.

I agree. If you think you know who someone is by their political affiliation (or only through an anonymous internet forum), then you're just a fool.

[Professor S]

I guess I just get upset when people for some reason dont have enough common sense to see that electing another Republican would be terrible for this country.

You would help out your cause by basing your arguments on ideas and not purely on feelings. You constantly make blanket statements backed by littlke more than "Republicans have ruined the country!!", which is an easy argument to dismiss as most Americans are still far more affluent and enjoy more freedoms than pretty much any other nation on the planet. I have yet to see a political opinion from you based on reason. Thats not to say there isn;t reason behind it, you just haven't shared it with us.

Your political affiliation should be based on more than your personal distaste for another party. You are not a white knight, and no single party has the monopoly on corruption or "evil". Vote FOR something, not against something else.

[Dyne]

I would hardly call them unwarranted, but fine. I didnt target anyone specifically.

Please, don't boil it down to attacks of any kind. I would expect the same restraint on those wishing to call Clinton supporters feminists and lesbians. It's no different - it makes no sense.

[Dylflon]

Man, aren't people tired of republicans yet?

[Dylflon]

Okay, just finished reading the thread.

It may be unfair to disregard Obama's opinion just because he never joined the military. Gearing up and going to war should really not be the prerequisite for having opinions on anything military.

Passionate people go to war.

Logical people are more prone to not fight for someone else's cause; no offense to anyone serving in or near the military.




Anyhow, I think some good old Tender Leftist Care will be pretty necessary to let the healing process to begin. It's all well and good to bally-hoo and rabblerouse when someone says Leftism, Socialist, or Marx, but you have to admire the left-wing's tendency towards focusing more on social programs than on shooting people.

America needs to make serious amendments to education, health care, and many other social issues. I know Democrats aren't innocent, but I find many Republicans to jump so willingly in bed with corporations than into bed with the interests of the public.

It's mind blowing that a president could spend 8 years, ruining social programs, and steering their country into the biggest deficit in American history from the biggest surplus in American history. All for a war that has had to change its justification once every few months just to keep people somewhat on board.
But there's too much to argue about the war so let's not get too far into that.

America needs a president that can restore the name of America in the eyes of the rest of the world, and I don't think John McCain is the man to do it, nor do I feel he is the man to repair the damage that has been done over the last eight years.

[Jonbo298]

Please, don't boil it down to attacks of any kind. I would expect the same restraint on those wishing to call Clinton supporters feminists and lesbians. It's no different - it makes no sense.

But...Lesbian's are good, at least in the 'movies'. Right? :(

[Bond]

It may be unfair to disregard Obama's opinion just because he never joined the military. Gearing up and going to war should really not be the prerequisite for having opinions on anything military.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I do agree that one should not disregard Obama's opinion on military matters simply because he has not served in the military, but it is certainly legitimate to not hold his opinion in as high esteem as that of someone like Colin Powell. Military expertise is especially important for running for President in the United States, as the President serves several distinct and important roles. In many other countries the Executive branch is divided between the Head of State and Head of Government (often the Commander in Chief is even a separate position). In the US, the President serves all three roles at the same time. Executive, lawmaking, and military experience are all important.

Passionate people go to war.

Logical people are more prone to not fight for someone else's cause; no offense to anyone serving in or near the military.
This strikes me as an extremely dangerous generalization to make. I'd prefer not to go into depth with your assertion, as I find it inappropriate to do so, but I would encourage you to give more thought to such a broad, sweeping statement.

Anyhow, I think some good old Tender Leftist Care will be pretty necessary to let the healing process to begin. It's all well and good to bally-hoo and rabblerouse when someone says Leftism, Socialist, or Marx, but you have to admire the left-wing's tendency towards focusing more on social programs than on shooting people.
This kind of polarization (i.e. caring for people vs. shooting people) is exactly what is wrong with American politics today. Everyone (or at least most everyone) has very legitimate political opinions that need to be respected and understood, not polarized.


I pulled out an article from my newspaper clippings for this specific discussion, but unfortunately it was too large to scan. I have kindly linked to the article and it can be found here (http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB121132806884008847.html).

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-BM314_oj_lie_20080520195611.jpg

Indeed, two of my most beloved presidents in US history (John F. Kennedy and Harry S. Truman), were both Democrats. I believe it is time that we begin to judge candidates on their own personal merit, and not their party.

[Jason1]

Look, its not that I dont have real opinions, I just think most republicans heads are too clouded by Republican lies to really justify wasting my time.

But I will say Dylflon summed it up pretty good.

[Renwood]

I can't vote for a man who can't high-five me.

[Professor S]

Look, its not that I dont have real opinions, I just think most republicans heads are too clouded by Republican lies to really justify wasting my time.

You have to try very hard to contradict yourself in one sentence, and you managed to succeed. Excellent work.

And Dyflon, your opinions of Republicans are that we care more for shooting people than social programs, and in reality they have nothing to do with each other. It is a conflict of ideals when it comes to what is best for people.

Democrats believe in a bigger government that provides services for its people because thats how they feel people can best succeed, and republicans believe in a smaller government than allows people to better provide for themselves, and that the main role of government to protect its people to enable that freedom (hence your "shooting" comment).

It's government responsiblity vs. personal responsibility, and that is where the conflict lies at its heart.

And my main issue with Obama is that he has no issues, and avoids speaking on them at any cost. I trust no politician who is not eager to expound on his beliefs, and that is why I chose to post the quotes that I did. Obama's views on the bill lasted 2 sentences and were an attack on McCain. McCain's explanation of his stance was nuanced and contained alternative, sensible arguments.

THAT is why Obama will lose and in the end it has NOTHING to do with Democrat or Republican, but the quality of the candidate that is running.

[Renwood]

That's not why Obama will lose. Campaigning and marketing money builds and then pushes an image. Image pushes votes. If McCain wins, it is the credit of the Republican campaign machine, which is an amazing thing to see in action.

Were it only possible that the same tightly oiled mechanism could be employed once either party entered office. Neither side manages to achieve a fraction of what it promises. Democrats promise more, and deliver nothing. Republicans act, but in ways I sometimes get a headache over.

Lucky am I to live in an area where local government still has the highest impact. Or unlucky, depending.

Do you identify with a party? I usually agree with more moderate Republican ideas, but I do not self-label myself as one. It would feel unnecessarily restrictive.

[Professor S]

That's not why Obama will lose. Campaigning and marketing money builds and then pushes an image. Image pushes votes. If McCain wins, it is the credit of the Republican campaign machine, which is an amazing thing to see in action.

Were it only possible that the same tightly oiled mechanism could be employed once either party entered office. Neither side manages to achieve a fraction of what it promises. Democrats promise more, and deliver nothing. Republicans act, but in ways I sometimes get a headache over.

Lucky am I to live in an area where local government still has the highest impact. Or unlucky, depending.

Do you identify with a party? I usually agree with more moderate Republican ideas, but I do not self-label myself as one. It would feel unnecessarily restrictive.

I just rehgistered as for a Republican for the first time, but that was only for this election. For the first time in my life I found I could not identify a single Democrat as being someone I would ever vote for, and in fact, viewed most of them as dangerous to the constitution. So I knew there was no reason to not register Republican for this election.

Also, I am a big McCain supporter, because he is the only politician I've seen who I believe actually votes by his thoughts and ideals and not by what he thinks will get himslef re-elected. So I wanted to make sure I could vote in the primary in PA, and to do so I had to register as a Republican.

Here is a viref rundown of my views:

National Security - Big stick. Only use it when you have to.

Social Programs - The fewer the better. The basis of a country is not the government, it is the people and the individual. The more you provide for people, the less they provide for themselves and they become comfortable in poverty. I am a fan a few though, and they are as follows:

1) Public Education - Its not as bad as people think and the core issue is broken families, not a lack of funds. We spend more now per student than at any time in history. Money can't make a kid care to learn or succeed in life.

2) Mental Asylums - One of the few areas where I have a huge problem with reagan's policies. He closed down the federal mental asylums, and I think they are necessary but need to be run better than they were before.

3) As Needed Healthcare - We currently provide healthcare for those that really need it, and half the people that qualify don't use it. I believe that those that truly need the government to pay for basic healthcare should get it, but please don't curse the rest of the people who have their care provided by work or payment suffer through the same wait lines and shitty specialist services that other national healthcare plans provide.

4) Roads and infrastructure - No explanation needed.

5) Limited regulation - I am a capitalist, but I recognize that capitalism can be like a starving dog... if you let it, it will eat itself to death. So I believe in anti-trust laws to ensure competitiveness and also to protect the consumer. This is an area where Bush and the newer Republicans disgust me as they destroyed those protections.

This said, I do NOT beieve in taxes or tariffs that PUNISH success. That is nothing more than childish class warfare. We should celebrate success, not have contempt for it. `Contempt for wealth is a trick the rich play on the poor to ensure they will never have it.'

Overall, though, I believe Ben Franklin said it the best:

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

[Renwood]

Public Education - Its not as bad as people think and the core issue is broken families, not a lack of funds. We spend more now per student than at any time in history. Money can't make a kid care to learn or succeed in life.
I work in a public school system, and in a lot of ways, it is worse than people think. The federal mandates that come down on the states, and then on down to each city cause a stupid amount of red tape and wasted funds on repetitive, often duplicate programs. It isn't that there is a lack of money being injected into the system; its that its being injected ignorantly. Federal government throws out a blanket statement, and we're supposed to believe and act as if that works, without any fine-tuning for individual districts and situations.

As a for instance, we were told by the State here (who were told by Federal), that our population of special education children must not exceed 1%. There are some ideas behind this rule, but it doesn't apply to my area, because of the huge influx of military kids that are flooding in as their parents are assigned to the area; that inflates the percentage, and we've now had to go through audits and all this expensive, useless bullshit to determine that, yes, we are a special case. Its been a waste, and meanwhile, the minorities are still falling through the cracks. A department here actually made up an assessment that was okayed by the State, just to be stricken down at the federal level after an initial greenlight.

And yes, the amount of money spent per student is disgusting given what each child actually recieves.

The problem is both the broken families and the lack of money being spent to do something with them, though not for want of spending in other areas.

Fuckin' hate No Child Left Behind.

[Professor S]

Fuckin' hate No Child Left Behind.

It will be interesting to see what happens after NCLB's mandate runs out, and inevitably fails. Its my opinion that NCLB was designed to fail to give the excuse to privatize national education. What do you think?

[Renwood]

It makes the main goal less about teaching and more about making the numbers look good. I think the worst thing is how it discourages any attention to programs that aren't directly tied to pushing up test scores. Gifted classes' budgets here are laughable, and Special Ed, given how fucked the weighting on grading is for the population, are being used more or less to hide the racial gaps in test scores.

Its discouraging to see how education is turned more and more into a business.

[KillerGremlin]

Obama has some easy material to work with. Bush's super low acceptance rating, the war, the causalities and the costs of the war. And then the fact that in two terms McCain will be 80......

We'll see how Obama holds up in debates, right now he has the hearts of America, and that's all that really matters. 3/4s of America don't give a damn about the politics.

I do like McCain, I've read up on him a bit and I've listened to him speak and I've warmed up to him a lot over the past month or two. So, I'm reserving my vote until I see the two duke it out in debate. I really think we need to flush out a lot of the Republicans, because even if McCain is a genuine guy there's still a lot of other not so great people.

[gekko]

The bill we have sponsored would increase monthly education benefits to $1500; eliminate the $1200 enrollment fee; and offer a $1000 annually for books and supplies. Importantly, we would allow veterans to transfer those benefits to their spouses or dependent children or use a part of them to pay down existing student loans.

WHAT??? This bill must pass ASAP!

[Professor S]

WHAT??? This bill must pass ASAP!

Unfortunately, that is not the bill that passed. What passed was Webb's(?) bill because it pandered more and delivered less.

[flunkie44]

HILARY FOR PREDIZIDENSHUL CANDIDAIT OF THE WOLRD!!11!

[Angrist]

I find your lack of faith disturbing. And your reviving of threads too.