April NPD or Everyone Drinks except Nintendo [Archive]

DeathsHand

05-15-2008, 08:46 PM

Wii has the lowest game-to-console sales ratio of the three...
It has arguably the worst third-party support of any Nintendo console to date...
Critically speaking, it has by far the fewest games with an 80% or higher total ranking (according to gameranking) between the three consoles...
It's third-party support looks to stay pretty poor for the foreseeable future...
And it's first-party titles look to be heading into a dry spell after Nintendo got a bit top-heavy with their franchises for the first year and a half...

As for that GTA-influenced comparison chart... The game itself broke sales records worldwide, including one for total revenue brought in by ANY form of Entertainment Media ever...
It sold nearly as many copies in it's first week as Wii's top-selling, non-bundled game (Mario Galaxy) has since it's release...
And the game's two versions (currently) occupy in the two top spots on gameranking's all-time highest reviewed game chart...

I mean, outside of raw console sales, I just don't see the significance of the Wii when this new user base that's causing a large chunk of sales seems less interested in, you know... purchasing games...

I'm more interested in how things will play out over the long haul... And not just as they relate to consoles sold...

Renwood

05-15-2008, 09:49 PM

I have a Wii. I like it. It has good games. Not enough?

Pushing sales is funny. Stockholder?

DeathsHand

05-16-2008, 01:06 AM

I have a Wii. I like it. It has good games. Not enough?

Pushing sales is funny. Stockholder?

I had a Wii! It had some good games! I liked it! Then I got bored! Then I sold it!

Point being: Sales can be a fun thing to follow and discuss... Opinions, predictions, and the ultimate outcome that weighs heavily on the direction of the gaming industry...

If the original Playstation hadn't sold the way it did, would the gaming industry be the same as it is today?

If Wii came out and absolutely nobody cared, would there be speculation that Microsoft is going to be ripping off their controller? Would anybody even want to rip off their controller? Would Nintendo use similar technology, and take a similar approach, to their next console?

*ponders*

TheGame

05-16-2008, 04:03 AM

Yeah, even though Wii is at the top of the sales charts, in my opinion its clearly the worst console. I really don't compare it head up with 360 and Ps3 . I feel like Wii is its own thing for casual gamers. Like GBA, or PSP. Just a nice system with a nice gimmick that sold well. Most of what I liked about the home gaming console industy for the last 10+ years isn't represented very well on the Wii.

That change is why its as sucsessful as it is. So grats to nintendo for that one, but I personally wouldn't call it the best console with the best games by a long shot. Nintendo's making their money, but they're not making it by having the best quality in my opinion. Is this good or bad for the industry? We'll see. lol

-EDIT-

By the way, I find my sigature funny now. I remember how ignorant he sounded when he said that years ago, then Wii comes out and just proves his point. It still goes against what I'm personally interested in, and more hardcore gamers. But the casual gamers are probably what drove him to say it.

Professor S

05-16-2008, 09:14 AM

Thw Wii's attachment rate compared to its console sales are so disparate, I'm tempted to remove the Wii from the console wars entirely, as its not really the same animal. There are a coupkle of things that don;t bode well for the Wii and the the idea that motion control is the future.

1) The afforementioned attachement rate is not bad, its terrible. people are literally buying the console for for Nintendo franises and Wii sports alone. That's not really an open platform console... it more like a really popular NeoGeo.

2) The "it" factor could be its undoing. As was mentioned before, people grow tirted of it pretty quickly in many cases (not all or even the majority). I thinka good part of its appeal is that its "fashionable", not unlike I think a lot of the appeal of Mac is fashionable. I'd be curious to see any numbers on Wii resales...

3) The most damning evidence is the continued lack of serious third party support. Nintendo has got to feel like the US army did when the conquered Iraq... "Hey everyone, we won! Don't you love us now? What? Wait! Where are you going?" The Wii needs to win the hearts and minds of serious third party developers, and so far they've been resoundingly ignored.

And for the record, I have no rooting interest against the Wii (I'm planning on getting one as my next console in fact), I'm just trying to be as objective as possible, and I welcome any differing arguments and evidence.

TheGame

05-16-2008, 09:38 AM

I'm tempted to remove the Wii from the console wars entirely, as its not really the same animal.

You can ask BaB on this one, I've always dismissed Wii from the console war. No matter how good it does, I still can't pull myself to call it in the same league. Its had to find good viable examples for how I feel this way outside of comparing it to handhelds... or kinda like you said, a popular Neo Geo. <_<

DarkMaster

05-16-2008, 09:43 AM

Only a truly amazing looking new Zelda game could get me interested in a Wii, otherwise I really don't see any appeal in the console. I mean here we are again, buying Nintendo's consoles for Nintendo's games. The only reason I could see owning the console right now are Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, and Smash Bros, and none of these games really truly symbolize the Wii's revolutionary mission of motion control. I'd be perfectly content playing all these games with a gamecube controller or something similar.

I guess in my mind, Wii is really just the cool new toy, and the other consoles are just sitting back, doing what they normally do, and I'm fine with that.

Renwood

05-16-2008, 10:11 AM

otherwise I really don't see any appeal in the console.

I mean here we are again, buying Nintendo's consoles for Nintendo's games.
That is all the appeal required from two hundred and fifty dollars.

Also, the only thing worse than Sales-Age is retarded Sales-Age. Please, all of you, stop.

Angrist

05-16-2008, 11:34 AM

DarkMaster

05-16-2008, 12:10 PM

That is all the appeal required from two hundred and fifty dollars.
Like I said, when the next Zelda reveals itself...

Professor S

05-16-2008, 12:12 PM

The funny thing is that Nintendo has always said they're not competing with Sony/Microsoft. They're doing their own thing and their market is growing bigger than the conventional market.

We're not the ones putting together the sales comparisons that include Nintendo, we're just commenting on them. Regardless of what Nintendo says, the industry views them as a competitor.

The question isn't why Nintendo isn't competing with the rest, but why the rest isn't competing with Nintendo.

Because they're two different animals trying to accomplish different things. Gamers play games on the 360 or PS3. Gamers play the Wii itself. The games are secondary, and I think you can see that the third party developers agree...

Aladuf

05-16-2008, 12:13 PM

You can ask BaB on this one, I've always dismissed Wii from the console war. No matter how good it does, I still can't pull myself to call it in the same league. Its had to find good viable examples for how I feel this way outside of comparing it to handhelds... or kinda like you said, a popular Neo Geo. <_<

Yep, I agree. I haven't considered the Wii to be in the same league as the PS3/360 for a long time. I've looked at the console wars as 360 vs. PS3 for a while because the Wii just doesn't offer the same experience as the HD consoles. The Wii is off completely doing its own thing and it's not coming back.

I ditched my Wii a couple of weeks back because I wasn't playing the 3 or 4 first party games I actually had. I didn't own a single 3rd party game and I had/have no interest in any of them coming out or ones that have come out.

One of the things that led me to sell the Wii is the fact that there was this one night in particular about a month ago where I was bored and wanted to play some game, ANYTHING really. So I got up and went over to my games and I looked through them for a little bit just trying to figure out what I wanted to play. Eventually I found something for the 360. But a few minutes later I realized that I didn't even for a second consider looking at the Wii games. I didn't even entertain the possibility of playing that console. So that led me to say right then "Why do I even own this fucking console?"

Also, the only thing worse than Sales-Age is retarded Sales-Age. Please, all of you, stop.

There's nothing retarded about this, this thread is kind of a discussion about where the Wii's spot is in gaming today and all of that.

BreakABone

05-17-2008, 05:19 PM

O for the first time in a long time. The top 20!

March/April ranks……… Title/platform/publisher
**/1 ………………Grand Theft Auto IV (Xbox 360) Take-Two*
**/2 ……………….Mario Kart (Wii) Nintendo
**/3 ……………….GTA IV (PS3) Take-Two*
4/4 ……………….Wii Play/with remote (Wii) Nintendo
1/5 ……………….Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) Nintendo
**/6 ……………….Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (PS3) Sony
**/7 ……………….Pokemon/Explorers of Darkness (DS) Nintendo
**/8 ……………….Pokemon/Explorers of Time (DS) Nintendo
7/9 ……………….Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) Activision
9/10 ……………….Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (360) Activision*
6/11 ……………….Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP) Square Enix
2/12 ……………….Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 (Xbox 360) Ubisoft*
20/13 ………………..Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2) Namco Bandai
19/14 ………………..Game Party (Wii) Midway
14/15 ………………..Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (PS2) Activision*
18/16 ………………..New Super Mario Bros. (DS) Nintendo
**/17 ………………..Mario Kart (DS) Nintendo
**/18 ………………..Rock Band (Xbox 360) MTV/Electronic Arts*
13/19 ………………..Mario Party (DS) Nintendo
**/20 ……………….Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) Nintendo

And since someone did the work.
Wii-6
DS-5
360-4
PS3-2
PS2-2
PSP-1

http://www.themanandhischeese.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aprilnpd.html

DeathsHand

05-17-2008, 05:37 PM

O for the first time in a long time. The top 20!

March/April ranks……… Title/platform/publisher
**/1 ………………Grand Theft Auto IV (Xbox 360) Take-Two*
**/2 ……………….Mario Kart (Wii) Nintendo
**/3 ……………….GTA IV (PS3) Take-Two*
4/4 ……………….Wii Play/with remote (Wii) Nintendo
1/5 ……………….Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) Nintendo
**/6 ……………….Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (PS3) Sony
**/7 ……………….Pokemon/Explorers of Darkness (DS) Nintendo
**/8 ……………….Pokemon/Explorers of Time (DS) Nintendo
7/9 ……………….Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) Activision
9/10 ……………….Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (360) Activision*
6/11 ……………….Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP) Square Enix
2/12 ……………….Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 (Xbox 360) Ubisoft*
20/13 ………………..Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2) Namco Bandai
19/14 ………………..Game Party (Wii) Midway
14/15 ………………..Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (PS2) Activision*
18/16 ………………..New Super Mario Bros. (DS) Nintendo
**/17 ………………..Mario Kart (DS) Nintendo
**/18 ………………..Rock Band (Xbox 360) MTV/Electronic Arts*
13/19 ………………..Mario Party (DS) Nintendo
**/20 ……………….Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) Nintendo

And since someone did the work.
Wii-6
DS-5
360-4
PS3-2
PS2-2
PSP-1

Two of the Wii games are Nintendo's hot new games, one is the follow-up, of sorts, to Wii Sports, another is the system's best-selling non-bundled game poking it's head back on the charts... And Guitar Hero III...

But what I find most interesting is the fact that "Game Party (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/941690.asp?q=Game%20Party)" (which came out back in DECEMBER) is not only in the top 20, but that it actually moved up 5 slots from March to April...
*ponders*

BreakABone

05-17-2008, 05:41 PM

Two of the Wii games are Nintendo's hot new games, one is the follow-up, of sorts, to Wii Sports, another is the system's best-selling non-bundled game poking it's head back on the charts... And Guitar Hero III...

But what I find most interesting is the fact that "Game Party (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/941690.asp?q=Game%20Party)" (which came out back in DECEMBER) is not only in the top 20, but that it actually moved up 5 slots from March to April...
*ponders*

Not quite sure what you are trying to say with this post. :confused:

DeathsHand

05-17-2008, 06:00 PM

Not quite sure what you are trying to say with this post. :confused:

The first half of that post was actually edited to replace what I had previously written there, which was "Well it has been a busy two months for Nintendo, with 2 big franchise releases"...
Which I guess was what I was saying... But that didn't comment on the other 4 Wii games in the top 20...

Wii Play and Game Party are both basically just (according to "the people") mediocre-terrible mini-game compilations in the vein of Wii Sports...
Maybe Game Party will one day have a spot on the top 20 list of bestselling Wii games, next to Carnival Games (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/939414.asp?q=Carnival%20games), with it's 1.7+ million sales...

So ultimately, in the face of another silly PS3 vs. 360 vs. Wii graphic, I was pointing out that the only surprise on that list is the fact that some of Wii's terrible games are actually selling, after all...

Aladuf

05-17-2008, 06:42 PM

So ultimately, in the face of another silly PS3 vs. 360 vs. Wii graphic, I was pointing out that the only surprise on that list is the fact that some of Wii's terrible games are actually selling, after all...

What's surprising about that? People can't stop forking out the money for these piece of shit non-games.

Game Party's Metacritic score: 25

And yet this thing is on the Top 20, fucking pathetic.

Edit: And people wonder when 3rd party developers will ever put out a respectable game on the Wii. Why the hell should they? If you can scrap together a "gem" like Game Party and be on the Top 20 and actually be moving up it, why the hell would you ever worry about making a quality game?

BreakABone

05-17-2008, 06:54 PM

What's surprising about that? People can't stop forking out the money for these piece of shit non-games.

Game Party's Metacritic score: 25

And yet this thing is on the Top 20, fucking pathetic.

Edit: And people wonder when 3rd party developers will ever put out a respectable game on the Wii. Why the hell should they? If you can scrap together a "gem" like Game Party and be on the Top 20 and actually be moving up it, why the hell would you ever worry about making a quality game?

You damned if you do.
And damned if you don't if your Nintendo.

I won't defend GameParty. I've never played it. I don't plan on playing it.

But is there a chance.. a small small chance that people who buy it actually enjoy it?

I had a friend back in high school who swore up and down the high heavens that Superman 64 was an awesome game. He would come in everyday and tel us about the game. Now to the rest of us, this was a joke Superman 64 was an awful game or so I've been told. I've never played it and have no intentions to, but he did and he found some enjoyment in it.

The same could be said for GameParty or even the ton more of party games on the Wii.

And you complain about Game PArty selling well and its a reason developers shouldn't put real games on the Wii, but what other "real" 3rd party game came out in April that deserved to sell? You can't look at an arguement one-sided and make a conclusion. One game sold well, but there were no real comparable games for you to show sold poorly.

Also, I believe game party was only released in March not Dec I could be mistaken.

And also I think this is the game, I knew people who were interested in it because it had a version of beer pong. Take that as you will.

Aladuf

05-17-2008, 07:02 PM

And you complain about Game PArty selling well and its a reason developers shouldn't put real games on the Wii, but what other "real" 3rd party game came out in April that deserved to sell? You can't look at an arguement one-sided and make a conclusion. One game sold well, but there were no real comparable games for you to show sold poorly.

Okami Wii. Sure it's just ANOTHER PS2 port on the Wii but it's a superior game to Game Party in every way. And it's not a non-game so that's always a plus in my book.

BreakABone

05-17-2008, 07:11 PM

Okami Wii. Sure it's just ANOTHER PS2 port on the Wii but it's a superior game to Game Party in every way. And it's not a non-game so that's always a plus in my book.

Yeah, it's a Ps2 port and figured it would be the one you mentioned, but hell it didn't sell well the first time around.

And also since you love throwing the term around Game Party isn't a non-game its a party game there is a difference. :p

Aladuf

05-17-2008, 07:16 PM

:lolz: How is there a difference? Either way, Game Party would classify as a non-game and a party game I guess. Which is appropriate because it seems to have enough suck for 2 games. :D

BreakABone

05-17-2008, 07:19 PM

:lolz: How is there a difference? Either way, Game Party would classify as a non-game and a party game I guess. Which is appropriate because it seems to have enough suck for 2 games. :D

How is there a difference between a non-game and a party game?

Really?

But before I even go into that debate, what the hell is your definition of a non-game?

Because as much as you throw it around, I don't even think you have a firm grasp on what people use it for.

Aladuf

05-17-2008, 07:22 PM

Renwood

05-17-2008, 08:11 PM

Yeah, it's a Ps2 port and figured it would be the one you mentioned, but hell it didn't sell well the first time around.
I hope there's not any subtext here about Okami not deserving to sell more. It's fantastically amazing and shoehorns waggle controls in as well as Twilight Princess, which sold a criminally higher amount, relative to their comparative quality.

Basically, mini-game collections (edit: games you wouldn't actually sit down and play by yourself), games where you don't actually play (Wii Fit). Shovelware.
There is a distinction though. Wii Play is very much a traditional game. Pong and Duck Hunt are games. Wii Play focuses on local multiplayer to a high degree, but its games are all squarely within the realm of traditional game mechanics. Its more a retro collection with a motion control gimmick than a party game.

You can make an arguement that party games are the ancestor to non-games, but there isn't a logical cut-off. If you start down that road, many genres become very murky, because it is all semantics. The action category and the puzzle category and the RPG category do not exist in vacuums anymore. Ditto non-games and party games. Most things are a meld of multiple design disciplines at this point.

Synergy, daddy.

Dyne

05-17-2008, 09:14 PM

Wait, what? Last time I checked, Wario Wares took skill, because the shtick was that it was a TON of microgames thrown at you at once. I don't really agree that it could be considered a non-game based on the flow of the randomized gameplay. However, the GCN one and the Wii one added the whole "party" kind of gameplay, which ruined it for me, personally.

I would consider a non-game different from shovelware as well. They have different terms for a reason.

gekko

05-17-2008, 09:48 PM

I'm tempted to remove the Wii from the console wars entirely

And this is what's wrong with gamers. What war? I must've missed it on CNN. There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

Now the modified GameCube is outselling cotton and you don't know what to do. Your telling me the solution is to remove it from your imaginary battlefield? This is a joke.

But instead of just sitting back and watching in amazement, you now want to argue that the console is a horrible failure and it's not what third-parties want. Thank you for being the voice of third parties around the world, I was hoping someone would step up to the plate sooner or later.

But you're right, on so many levels. Wii is a complete failure... oh, and wasn't Nintendo supposed to go bankrupt this generation?

DeathsHand

05-17-2008, 10:47 PM

You damned if you do.
And damned if you don't if your Nintendo.

----------------

But is there a chance.. a small small chance that people who buy it actually enjoy it?

Maybe... and yet...
If Nintendo had decided to create a system that was truly in direct competition (as people like to put it) with Sony and Microsoft, and this hypothetical system surpassed Gamecube's total worldwide sales in less than 2 years (and was very likely to eventually surpass N64's total sales), as the Wii has done, there'd really be no "damned if you do" attitude right now...

Nintendo fans have always bought Nintendo consoles for Nintendo's offerings... With the Wii, you're still getting those; so from a Nintendo fan's perspective, you have everything you've always loved, only now it's selling like hotcakes...

The whole problem with this discussion lies within this new "casual" pseudo/non-gamer base they've tapped into, what they've done for sales, how interested they actually end up being in gaming, what kind of games they're interested in, etc etc etc...

As for Game Party/Carnival Games' success, of course there's a chance that someone will actually enjoy it (maybe somewhere along the lines of a 21% chance)... Especially among the new market Nintendo's discovered...
See though, I can't help but feel a bit like a snooty, elitist longtime gamer, but I personally don't want the future of gaming to be made up of by poorly thrown together mini-game compilations...
And from where I'm standing, the only difference between Wii and last generation is the success of that type of game, the mainstream hype, a dryer market of quality third-party titles, and a new controller that, IMO, hasn't quite lived up to the hype as the "future of gaming"...

There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

If I may be the voice of Professor S's around the world, "console wars" is just a familiar label gamers use when discussing this situation in which two or three companies have competing products, so as not to have to type out "this situation in which companies have competing products" every time they want to mention it...
And while I'll agree that the term does give off a sense of teenagers throwing a couple of hissy-fits, I don't think that's the case...
But perhaps we can agree to call it "TSIWCHCP"?

As far as I'm concerned, TSIWCHCP simply provides a forum for discussion of where you see gaming going, where you want to see it go, etc etc...
Wii's new demographic simply makes things more interesting...A tad bit'o'the unknown... OoOoogidy...

Aladuf

05-17-2008, 11:27 PM

I would consider a non-game different from shovelware as well. They have different terms for a reason.

I would consider them different but most shovelware seems to be mini-games these days so it just seems to be an negative association I have. I'm ignorant towards the Wii, what can I say? My blind hate for the system prevents me from knowing anything past first party games. :(

TheGame

05-18-2008, 02:59 AM

And this is what's wrong with gamers. What war? I must've missed it on CNN. There is no war, no battle, it's simply two companies with competing products. The only people who should care are the ones working for those companies. The rest of you simply decided you wanted to cheer for an electronics box that hooks up to your TV and then suddenly became hooligans fighting with each other.

Now the modified GameCube is outselling cotton and you don't know what to do. Your telling me the solution is to remove it from your imaginary battlefield? This is a joke.

But instead of just sitting back and watching in amazement, you now want to argue that the console is a horrible failure and it's not what third-parties want. Thank you for being the voice of third parties around the world, I was hoping someone would step up to the plate sooner or later.

But you're right, on so many levels. Wii is a complete failure... oh, and wasn't Nintendo supposed to go bankrupt this generation?

Wow what a huge over reaction lol. Nobody's saying Wii is a failure, people are just saying its different and isn't exactly competing head up with Ps3 or 360. Just like the Tekken arcade machine at the mall is different, and isn't competing head up with the 360 or Ps3. Or like Sony PSP or GBA is different and isn't cometing head up with them.

Nobody's saying Wii failed or its crap, you're just jumping the gun way too hard.

BreakABone

05-18-2008, 06:22 AM

I classify a non-game as:

Wario Ware
Game Party
Wii Sports
Wii Play
Wii Fit
Carnival Games
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Basically, mini-game collections (edit: games you wouldn't actually sit down and play by yourself), games where you don't actually play (Wii Fit). Shovelware.
You see your definition is very loose and I don't believe befitting of the term.
The way I see most people define a non-game such as Brain Age or Wii Fit is there are no real goals. You just kind of play the game.

Most of those games have some goal whether it is a high score or beating your friends or unlocking new mini-games.

A mini-game collection doesn't equal a non-game.
And your definition of games you wouldn't sit down and play by yourself is too subjective.
I wouldn't mind playing Wii Sports by myself every now and then. Same deal with Wario Ware (especially since you have to to unlock multiplayer) so I really don't like that definition.
Hell by your definition TF 2 is a non-game as well. ;)

Nintendo fans have always bought Nintendo consoles for Nintendo's offerings... With the Wii, you're still getting those; so from a Nintendo fan's perspective, you have everything you've always loved, only now it's selling like hotcakes...
I'm not gonna disagree with this statement, but how is playing a Nintendo console for Nintendo games any different than people who bought 360s for Halo 3 or people who buy Ps3 for MGS 4 and GTA IV?

I mean the argument always seems to pop up and just because people buy a console for first party efforts (who would have thunk it) doesn't make it a negative.

Now I know the arguement will lead down the well its the only games they buy category, but that isn't true either. The problem is not many 3rd parties want to put compelling content on the Wii and see if it sells because they have this stigma.

But I will champion several 3rd party efforts on the Wii and I own them like they deserve. Developers need to have confidence in their games being about to sell under any condition.

As for Game Party/Carnival Games' success, of course there's a chance that someone will actually enjoy it (maybe somewhere along the lines of a 21% chance)... Especially among the new market Nintendo's discovered...
See though, I can't help but feel a bit like a snooty, elitist longtime gamer, but I personally don't want the future of gaming to be made up of by poorly thrown together mini-game compilations...
That is the same feeling Aladuf shares.
And for some reason the creation of Wii Play and Game Party hasn't stopped stuff like Gears 2 or Prototype or hell even Mad World from being announced. Epic isn't all of sudden turning GoW 2 into Gears Party or Halo Play.

And from where I'm standing, the only difference between Wii and last generation is the success of that type of game, the mainstream hype, a dryer market of quality third-party titles, and a new controller that, IMO, hasn't quite lived up to the hype as the "future of gaming"...
I will give you the Wii hasn't lived up to its true potential yet, but there have been many bright lights of hope.

Just need someone to grab hold of it.

I would consider them different but most shovelware seems to be mini-games these days so it just seems to be an negative association I have. I'm ignorant towards the Wii, what can I say? My blind hate for the system prevents me from knowing anything past first party games. :(
Well your hatred of Wii shines through all the time, but why are shovelware/non-games a Nintendo-only factor?
I have pointed out there is a ton of crap on the ps3/360 as well, but no one ever wants to call them on that.

No its big bad Nintendo who has nothing but crap on their console. Even though, I personally feel the console has a rather decent library at the moment, you are so intent on focusing on the games you don't like on the console that you won't even give the other ones a chance.

I mean what were the chances of you buying/playing Game Party anyhow? But here is an entire discussion on it.

How was NO More Heroes? How was Okami Wii? How was Medal of Honor Heroes 2?

My point being don't point fingers at the crap and then ignore the quality stuff because it suits your arguement.

Yeah, the Wii has crap. It isn't a new story. And it isn't one that will change anytime soon. They are the most dominant console on the market right now it makes sense for the most crap to go there. You have a better chance of selling it to a wider audience.

Wow what a huge over reaction lol. Nobody's saying Wii is a failure, people are just saying its different and isn't exactly competing head up with Ps3 or 360. Just like the Tekken arcade machine at the mall is different, and isn't competing head up with the 360 or Ps3. Or like Sony PSP or GBA is different and isn't cometing head up with them.

Nobody's saying Wii failed or its crap, you're just jumping the gun way too hard.

Justin defending the Wii. :confused:
Now I've seen it all.

Renwood

05-18-2008, 09:33 AM

You see your definition is very loose and I don't believe befitting of the term.
The way I see most people define a non-game such as Brain Age or Wii Fit is there are no real goals. You just kind of play the game.

Not really an accurate delineation; I use the term non-game to describe the new wave since it seems to be what everyone has adopted, but its a bit dumb.

Brain Age has a number activities that you must perform to unlock more activities. Each day, your goal is to test yourself and see if you have risen or lowered on the brain age scale. Something similar can be found in Wii Sports with charting your physical age. Unlocking things through play, time trials, a number of different activities; its very much a game. Its wrapped in this strange aesthetic thats foreign, so its given this non-game distinction to separate it, but looking at the actual mechanics of the game, its not a radical departure.

I haven't looked into Wii Fit, but I imagine it has similar modes to Wii Sports and Wii Play. The Yoga might be considered a non-game, but then, you're still interacting with on-screen prompts to progress, so is that really so far removed from the philosophy behind Guitar Hero, where, if I may parrot my favorite comparison ever, the gameplay consists of rapid Quick-time events.

As to "just playing," I think thats a flimsy differentiator when games exist with such radical differences in difficulty. If I pop into "very easy" mode in Metal Gear Solid, I "just play" and watch some movies. I think I actually am more engaged by Brain Age in that instance.

I consider non-games to be a lazy term that the enthusiast press picked up and ran with because it was easier than melding these games into the categories that already exist and which they only refine, not revolutionize. It would be harder and take longer to take a moment and analyze these games that seem different to see the underlying mechanics, and its very easy to say "oh, that doesn't look like anything I've ever done. No marines, no elves, no violence? Some mini-games? Non-game!"

How was NO More Heroes?
Not as good as my other games and made me feel bad to have in my possession when other better games went unplayed. That has been seen to.

BreakABone

05-18-2008, 10:20 AM

Not really an accurate delineation; I use the term non-game to describe the new wave since it seems to be what everyone has adopted, but its a bit dumb.
I personally hate the term "non-game"
I also hate the use of casual vs hardcore but that's another topic.

Brain Age has a number activities that you must perform to unlock more activities. Each day, your goal is to test yourself and see if you have risen or lowered on the brain age scale. Something similar can be found in Wii Sports with charting your physical age. Unlocking things through play, time trials, a number of different activities; its very much a game. Its wrapped in this strange aesthetic thats foreign, so its given this non-game distinction to separate it, but looking at the actual mechanics of the game, its not a radical departure.
I own and to some extent enjoy Brain Age, but the game itself has no real goals. If you get a Brain Age of 20 it isn't an end really. Just means you are sharp that day or know how to cheat the system well.

Most people declare it a non-game because there really isn't any reward for playing other than personal satisfication.
Sort of like the Sims.

As to "just playing," I think thats a flimsy differentiator when games exist with such radical differences in difficulty. If I pop into "very easy" mode in Metal Gear Solid, I "just play" and watch some movies. I think I actually am more engaged by Brain Age in that instance.
Another arguement for another day. Level of difficulty in a game.

I consider non-games to be a lazy term that the enthusiast press picked up and ran with because it was easier than melding these games into the categories that already exist and which they only refine, not revolutionize. It would be harder and take longer to take a moment and analyze these games that seem different to see the underlying mechanics, and its very easy to say "oh, that doesn't look like anything I've ever done. No marines, no elves, no violence? Some mini-games? Non-game!"
Wow i agree. :confused:

Not as good as my other games and made me feel bad to have in my possession when other better games went unplayed. That has been seen to.

No More Heroes is fun. And enjoyable but its one of those games even I know you have to take the really bad to enjoy it. While the main action segments are fun, the game around it is hit or miss.

But that comment was directed at Aladuf who is so quick to post about Wii's shovelware, but hardly touches the notable games.

Aladuf

05-18-2008, 10:33 AM

Hell by your definition TF 2 is a non-game as well. ;)

At least I have a goal in TF 2 am I right?! booyah!

Renwood

05-18-2008, 10:57 AM

I own and to some extent enjoy Brain Age, but the game itself has no real goals. If you get a Brain Age of 20 it isn't an end really. Just means you are sharp that day or know how to cheat the system well.

Brain Age does have a goal when I play it. I play it to achieve or to maintain the lowest possible age. That's the goal I give to myself within the framework of the game. It does not explicitly encourage me to that specific style of play, but it is set up to allow it. My mom plays Brain Age for specific portions, and rarely if ever tests her age day-to-day. She plays free form, and sets up her own goal of wanting to do math problems faster that day. The game isn't directing her. She's directing her.

So this becomes hazy when we look at other games with the same mentality. What is the long-term goal in Halo 3 multiplayer? If its ranking, then what happens when I've achieved the highest possible rank? Is my goal then not to maintain that? What if I wasn't playing for rank to begin with? My goal was to win each game I entered. That's my soft goal. But there's no hard limit on "winning"; each time is like the first time. There's no progression outside that ranking that I might or might not care about. I'm not forced into anything. I have set up my own goal again.

More generally, isn't my ever present goal with a game to enjoy myself? That's what I consider a game; something I do for derived enjoyment. Games give me that enjoyment in different ways. Some have fun mechanics, some make me think, and some are just aesthetically pleasing (or sometimes, displeasing like in Silent Hill), and I like being transplanted into the world they're pushing.

"Sort of like the Sims"; do you consider the Sims to be a non-game? Similar to Brain Age, there are arbitrary goals in place, but I rarely followed them. I liked to wall off the Sims and make my own goals for the day. Its similar with Grand Theft Auto. The story is there with its linear progression and set of developer-set goals, but I spend the bulk of my time on free play, where the only goal is to see what I can and cannot do within the game world. There is no goal or "reward" in that for me beyond "personal satisfaction"

No More Heroes is fun. And enjoyable but its one of those games even I know you have to take the really bad to enjoy it. While the main action segments are fun, the game around it is hit or miss.
It's not good in the same way it is not bad. Its average and adequate, but not remarkable, and when its peers are, it becomes unnecessary. Until such time as it is the only game left unplayed from my library.

DeathsHand

05-18-2008, 03:57 PM

I'm not gonna disagree with this statement, but how is playing a Nintendo console for Nintendo games any different than people who bought 360s for Halo 3 or people who buy Ps3 for MGS 4 and GTA IV?

The point of me saying that Nintendo fans buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games was simply to establish that, while they'd certainly welcome quality third-party titles, they're generally happy either way... But that this new casual pseudo/non-gamer that's responsible for an unknown (but probably fairly substantial) chunk of it's sales isn't necessarily buying the Wii for either of those.

But I suppose the main difference between buying Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games vs. 360/ps3 for GTAIV is that GTAIV is a third-party title...
I also really don't think it's fair to say that a console with a LOWER game-to-console attach rate is being purchased for Nintendo GAMES (plural), while the console with more robust game sales is being bought for a single title (GTAIV)...

If you look at the top-selling games on each console, GTAIV is just one of many 2+ million sellers from third parties that make up 360's list...

Xbox 360 sales: (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=X360&developer=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales)

2: CoD4
3: Gears of War
6: Assassin's Creed
7: Guitar Hero III
8: Oblivion
10: Madden 08
11: Ghost Recon
12: Rainbow Six Vegas
13: Guitar Hero II
14: CoD3
15: CoD2

And the trend continues with third-party games that sold between 1 and 2 million... Mass Effect, Saints Row, Bioshock, Fight Night, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Rock Band, Need for Speed games...

PS2's and the original Xbox's lists are similar to that...

Now compare that all to say...

N64 (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=N64&developer=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales)
Gamecube (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=GC&developer=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales)
and Wii (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=Wii&developer=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales)
*strokes chin*

That is the same feeling Aladuf shares.
And for some reason the creation of Wii Play and Game Party hasn't stopped stuff like Gears 2 or Prototype or hell even Mad World from being announced. Epic isn't all of sudden turning GoW 2 into Gears Party or Halo Play.

Of course not... I was moreso referring to future generations of consoles...
If Wii ultimately dominates the sales charts by these margins when all is said and done this generation, Sony and MS might want to look into ways to tap into this new market Nintendo created... And I'd be curious to see what they come up with, because they're certainly not going to succeed simply by adding a waggle to their next $600 powerhouse of a console...

Angrist

05-18-2008, 05:19 PM

Now the interesting question is:

Don't 3rd party games sell on Nintendo consoles because there are too many great 1st party games?
Or don't they sell because Nintendo fans are way too loyal/stupid?

I used to think it was the first. I couldn't even buy all the great Nintendo games, so why would I get the 3rd party games?
But now I'm starting to think it's the second... Okami and Boom Blox are better games than many Nintendo has made, but I doubt they'll sell much.

Jonbo298

05-18-2008, 05:34 PM

It's a mixture of both I think. The problem, is that by releasing a title on a Nintendo console, you are competing with Nintendo on quality. Most Ninty games are really good (I said most, not all). So it's difficult to try and get up to that level. Hence why most developers don't try, because they realize people will wonder why get this when X related Nintendo game is better?

There are standout games people will buy. You have to advertise and convince people that it is worth it (along with word of mouth, which helped the Wii more then any advertising with Wii Sports).

Aladuf

05-18-2008, 06:14 PM

That is the same feeling Aladuf shares.
And for some reason the creation of Wii Play and Game Party hasn't stopped stuff like Gears 2 or Prototype or hell even Mad World from being announced. Epic isn't all of sudden turning GoW 2 into Gears Party or Halo Play.

Whoa whoa whoa, wait. That is not how I feel. I know that devs like Epic or Bungie etc. aren't gonna change their games into mini-games or things like that. I'm actually annoyed at the people that are marking this as the end of "hardcore gaming" because of what? April NPD? Nintendo had a month like many others, 700,000+ sales and PS3/360 suffered a bit. But these people who sit here and say that GTA4 was hardly the HD consoles "savior" is retarded. It was five days at the end of April, do we all not still think that GTA4 will most likely sell 8-9 million and possibly more? Hardcore gaming is going as strong as ever, and people need to realize that.

DeathsHand

05-18-2008, 11:25 PM

The problem, is that by releasing a title on a Nintendo console, you are competing with Nintendo on quality.

When you release a game on any console, you are competing with all the other Third, Second, and (even on PS3 and 360, the occasional) First Party games of high quality, with established names from established developers...

Now the interesting question is:

Don't 3rd party games sell on Nintendo consoles because there are too many great 1st party games?
Or don't they sell because Nintendo fans are way too loyal/stupid?

Probably both, and a few more... You also have to take into consideration the fact that, during the previous two generations, there had been significantly fewer Nintendo consoles in the hands of consumers then there were say, Playstations (Something like 6-to-1 last gen, 3-to-1 the gen before that)... So lower sales were to be expected to begin with...

Jonbo298

05-18-2008, 11:33 PM

The thing is, is that MS and Sony made games aren't held up to the same standard Nintendo games are in the general populace, hence why alot of games on the Wii or GC or N64 didn't sell as well, because people come to expect quality from Nintendo (with a rare exception once in awhile).

For other consoles, yeah, you have to compete against alot more, but there isn't a defacto company to compare to for the most part. Yeah, I'm having a hard time explaining it. Oh well.

DeathsHand

05-19-2008, 12:01 AM

MS and Sony made games aren't held up to the same standard Nintendo games are in the general populace

Overall, no... Which is why I said "the occasional", in reference to MS and Sony...
I don't know of any specific examples in MS's case (since I'm an Xbox n00b), but I believe Team Ico (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus) is a first party developer for Sony... God of War and Gran Turismo are first party titles...
And yeah, that may be 4 games/franchises established over 2+ console generations... But... Hey... "occasional" :p

but there isn't a defacto company to compare to for the most part. Yeah, I'm having a hard time explaining it. Oh well.

Maybe it's just because you're having a hard time explaining exactly what you mean, or maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I don't see why the lack of having a single company to compare quality to is an issue when there still exists an overall tier of high-quality titles from a collection of high-quality developers...

Jonbo298

05-19-2008, 01:30 AM

I agree, there is alot of high quality titles from everyone (well, almost everyone). ICO, God of War, CoD 4, etc...It's just that there is still a 'hardcore' Nintendo fanbase that doesn't always see beyond the box still, unfortunately. Heck, the 360 was my first non-Nintendo console ever (I don't count Genesis/Dreamcast because I got them after they were pretty much dead and cheap fun from the good ol' days is nice).

I wasn't a blind fanboy, I prefer Ninty games because of the quality of them, and I wasn't as financially able to afford more then one console like I can now. Now that the 360 has introduced such a wide array of decent titles, and the fact that the way Live was done this generation was in a great way compared to before, I enjoy looking outside the box now that I can :p

Angrist

05-19-2008, 03:20 AM

Maybe people just like playing established franchises. I know I'd rather play F-Zero than WipeOut. Rather Kid Icarus than God of War.

Hm, maybe it's because of the good character design. WipeOut is faceless, while F-Zero has all these interesting characters and a story to go with it.

Fact is, you'd rather compete with God of War than with Zelda.

Renwood

05-19-2008, 11:24 AM

Maybe people just like playing established franchises. I know I'd rather play F-Zero than WipeOut. Rather Kid Icarus than God of War.
Kid Icarus? Really? Really?

You poor bastard.

WipeOut is faceless, while F-Zero has all these interesting characters and a story to go with it.
WipEout is also fun. F-Zero GX could take notes. :P

Angrist

05-19-2008, 04:10 PM

I've never played a GoW game, so that explains my ignorance. But I think it 'proves' my point.

Aladuf

05-19-2008, 04:13 PM

You're missing out. The GoW games are really awesome, I'm playing GoW: CoO on the PSP right now and it is really fun.

In a way I guess it proves your point, but it also proves that you need to expand past Nintendo games IMO.

DeathsHand

05-19-2008, 07:18 PM

Maybe people just like playing established franchises. I know I'd rather play F-Zero than WipeOut. Rather Kid Icarus than God of War.

I think it's quite obvious that people like playing established franchises, no arguing there...
Although I'd hardly call Kid Icarus an established franchise, since as it stands now, it's still a one-off game from like 20 years ago...
God of War, on the other hand, earned a 93% score on gamerankings and sold 3.2 million, despite not being an established franchise, and despite coming from a division of Sony who's only previous game was the middling racer Kinetica...
It's success spawned a sequel, which earned a 92% rating and has sold 2 million, and a PSP game, which earned a 91%, and sold... Well, nobody buys PSP games...
But, when discussing the general public's reaction to a game, those stats are hardly anything to frown at...

Fact is, you'd rather compete with God of War than with Zelda.

That's true... But would you rather compete with Zelda or Final Fantasy? Zelda or Dragon Warrior? Zelda or Gran Turismo? Zelda or Grand Theft Auto?
Only 1 out of those 4 are from Sony, but all are high-quality games from established franchises which, at least during the previous two generations (which is when developers started becoming wary of Nintendo consoles), you could only find on Sony consoles, and that was my whole point...

The competition on Playstation and Xbox might not be coming from Sony and Microsoft, but it's still there, and it's still of very high quality...

Aladuf

05-19-2008, 07:26 PM

It's success spawned a sequel, which earned a 92% rating and has sold 2 million, and a PSP game, which earned a 91%, and sold... Well, nobody buys PSP games...

And don't forget God of War 3 for PS3 next year! :D

Renwood

05-19-2008, 09:23 PM

I've never played a GoW game, so that explains my ignorance. But I think it 'proves' my point.
This has less to do with God of War and more to do with the fact that you mentioned Kid Icarus as relevant in any context.

Its a piece of shit.

BreakABone

05-21-2008, 06:17 PM

Doesn't come out often, but top 10s across the board from April.

Top 20 Video Game Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* (Xbox 360) 1.850.000
2. Mario Kart Wii (Wii) 1.120.000
3. Grand Theft Auto IV* (PS3) 1.000.000
4. Wii Play w/ Remote (Wii) 360.000
5. Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii) 326.000
6. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue (PS3) 224.000
7. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness (NDS) 202.000
8. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time (NDS) 202.000
9. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Wii) 152.000
10. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* (Xbox 360) 141.000
11. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII (PSP)
12. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2* (Xbox 360) 103.500
13. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3 (PS2)
14. Game Party (Wii)
15. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock* (PS2)
16. New Super Mario Bros. (NDS)
17. Mario Kart DS (NDS)
18. Rock Band* (Xbox 360)
19. Mario Party DS (NDS)
20. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii)

Top 10 Wii Titles:
1. Mario Kart Wii 1.120.000
2. Wii Play w/ Remote 360.000
3. Super Smash Bros. Brawl 326.000
4. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 152.000
5. Game Party
6. Super Mario Galaxy
7. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
8. Carnival Games
9. Mario Party 8
10. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08

xx. Okami < 100.000

~Interesting that Okami Wii is apparently just shy of 100k.
Though I do take issue with Game Party, Carnival Games and Mario Party 8 being on the list. The rest of the list isn't awful. I find it weird that Tiger Woods is still selling so well.

Top Xbox 360 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.850.000
2. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* 141.000
3. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 103.500
4. Rock Band*
5. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
6. Army of Two
7. Major League Baseball 2K8
8. Halo 3*
9. Iron Man
10. Assassin's Creed*
~Not surprising seeing how most do, but Iron Man is pretty high up on the list for coming in so late in the game. The list features most of the expected games.

Top PS2 Titles:
1. Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3
2. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
3. MLB '08: The Show
4. God of War II
5. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3
6. Rock Band*
7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
8. Metal Gear Solid: Essential Collection
9. Iron Man
10. Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy

Top 10 PS3 Titles:
1. Grand Theft Auto IV* 1.000.000
2. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue 224.000
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas 2*
6. Rock Band*
7. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock*
8. Army of Two
9. Assassin's Creed*
10. Iron Man
~Very similar list to the 360.

Top 10 NDS Titles:
1. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness 202.000
2. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time 202.000
3. New Super Mario Bros.
4. Mario Kart DS
5. Mario Party DS
6. Mario and Sonic: Olympic Games
7. Imagine: Babyz
8. Pokemon Diamond Version
9. The World Ends With You 43.000
10. Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day
-
xx. Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword 23.700

~The world awaits the eventual merger of Pokemario. The first game to sell a billion copies opening day. :p

Top 10 PSP Titles:
1. Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
2. God of War: Chains of Olympus 64.000
3. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories
4. MLB '08: The Show
5. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories
6. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition
7. Ratchet & Clank: Size Matters
8. Patapon
9. Need for Speed Carbon: Own the City
10. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas

http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php