Something that sickens my stomach...

[Perfect Stu]

last Sunday night, the Toronto Raptors were playing the Detroit Pistons in Detroit. While the Canadian national anthem played, fans throughout the stadium BOOed...

Now, also note that this was days after 4 Canadians were killed in Afghanistan in a training facility when an American bomber dropped a bomb (he just...screwed up big time) on the group of 8 or so Canadian soldiers.

This kind of thing makes me sick to my stomach...when I think of those people in Detroit, the words 'scum of the Earth' come to mind.

Now, I don't hold this against Americans or anything. I know that the majority of Americans respect and like Canada as a country in general. (As they should).

And now, I believe it was last night, at a hockey game in Vancouver, some fans were yelling during the American national anthem. This just makes things worse, and although they weren't 'BOOing', and it although it was retalitory, I still consider it completely wrong.

I just thought this should be brought up. Post your thoughts here.

[DeathsHand]

I think they were doing it because some fans become overcome by the "spirit of their game" and have to "root for their team" and were just "BOOing" because the opposing team happened to be from another country and it was their (as in the opposing team's) anthem... *shrugs*...

But I don't get the whole US vs. Canada thing...

Like awhile back on a game called Subspace, there was this Squad (basically like starcraft clans, except you actually create them with a password you need to join, and you get the name of the Squad by your name) called like Canadians or something... and it was just a bunch of canadians that would sit around CONSTANTLY saying negative things about americans... and it would send a ton of people in the zone (basically a game... but it usually had at least 25 people in it... most of the time even more... sometimes in the hundreds I think) in this giant arguement and it was SOOO annoying... they even had this dumb kill message like "*person they just killed*, you must be from America because that was way too easy" or something to that extent...

Then there's people like my brother who seem to hate Canada for no particular reason...

But in this case, I think it was probably just some crazy fans booing the visiting team :unsure:

[Jin]

Originally posted by DeathsHand
I think they were doing it because some fans become overcome by the "spirit of their game" and have to "root for their team" and were just "BOOing" because the opposing team happened to be from another country and it was their (as in the opposing team's) anthem... *shrugs*...

But I don't get the whole US vs. Canada thing...

Like awhile back on a game called Subspace, there was this Squad (basically like starcraft clans, except you actually create them with a password you need to join, and you get the name of the Squad by your name) called like Canadians or something... and it was just a bunch of canadians that would sit around CONSTANTLY saying negative things about americans... and it would send a ton of people in the zone (basically a game... but it usually had at least 25 people in it... most of the time even more... sometimes in the hundreds I think) in this giant arguement and it was SOOO annoying... they even had this dumb kill message like "*person they just killed*, you must be from America because that was way too easy" or something to that extent...

Then there's people like my brother who seem to hate Canada for no particular reason...

But in this case, I think it was probably just some crazy fans booing the visiting team :unsure:

I agree. Half of the people that BOO'd were probably drunk and have nothing against Canada. Anyway, I don't get why Canadians hate Americans, and Americans hate Canadians. We are practically the same.

[Bond]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
last Sunday night, the Toronto Raptors were playing the Detroit Pistons in Detroit. While the Canadian national anthem played, fans throughout the stadium BOOed...

Now, also note that this was days after 4 Canadians were killed in Afghanistan in a training facility when an American bomber dropped a bomb (he just...screwed up big time) on the group of 8 or so Canadian soldiers.

This kind of thing makes me sick to my stomach...when I think of those people in Detroit, the words 'scum of the Earth' come to mind.

Now, I don't hold this against Americans or anything. I know that the majority of Americans respect and like Canada as a country in general. (As they should).

And now, I believe it was last night, at a hockey game in Vancouver, some fans were yelling during the American national anthem. This just makes things worse, and although they weren't 'BOOing', and it although it was retalitory, I still consider it completely wrong.

I just thought this should be brought up. Post your thoughts here.
Well, lets compare this to Palestine burning and stomping on the American flag.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Bond

Well, lets compare this to Palestine burning and stomping on the American flag.

Well, I believe they were doing that because the US supports a country that stole their land or something to that extent, and is (or was, I dunno) doing very little to help resolve the conflict when US is such a powerful magical country and one of it's Ally's was involved...

Or something :unsure:

But why did you mention that anyways? :unsure:

[Gamer]

Originally posted by Bond

Well, lets compare this to Palestine burning and stomping on the American flag.

Hehe, when i saw that on tv i wanted to burn and stomp their faces. But then a couple days later on the front page of the SUN it showd a picture of some homo who was burning an american flag and lit his hair on fire, god that was helarious!

Anyways, i dont have anything against americans, i mean, there is literally no difference between us. But i do have things against americans that have no respect for canada, that is one thing i dont stand for, i mean, what has canada done to the US other than help them out? you know what i mean?

[Ginkasa]

Originally posted by Jin


I agree. Half of the people that BOO'd were probably drunk and have nothing against Canada. Anyway, I don't get why Canadians hate Americans, and Americans hate Canadians. We are practically the same.



Americans hate Canada and Canadians hate Americans?



Since when?



You know, besides the booing thing.... :unsure:

[Joeiss]

Way to copy almost word for word of what Don Cherry said, Stu!


And... I think that it was bad that the Americans were booing the Canadian national anthem, but who can say that this was the first time it ever happened? Yeah, that's what I thought. The fans were just getting into the game, and like others said, most were drunk. :D

And, I was talking to my friend who lives in Florida, and I told him about the friendly fire accident involving the American pilot and the training Canadians on the ground. He heard something about it when it first happened, but hasn't even heard anything since. So maybe those people boing didn't even know about it.

[Heyyoudvd]

"Well, I believe they were doing that because the US supports a country that stole their land or something to that extent, and is (or was, I dunno) doing very little to help resolve the conflict when US is such a powerful magical country and one of it's Ally's was involved... "


The Palestinians simply hate the U.S. and Israel because they're modern democracies, and because they're the 2 countries with the most Jews in the world (5.2 million in Israel, about 6 million in the U.S.). Plain and simply.

Anyone who supports the 9/11 attacks or the suicide bombings is scum.

BTW, no one ever stole their land, because it was never theirs to begin with.


*edit* whoops, I forgot that I can quite in this BBS as opposed to just pasting and putting quotation marks.

[Perfect Stu]

maybe I should bring up another story that Don Cherry has said, for the sake of this whole story

near toronto, a little girl was signing the american national anthem for an OHL game. (where up and coming canadian NHL stars play, if they're near ontario)...anyways, she was really nervous and forgot the words to the anthem. So she walked away. Her father told her to go back there and sing it properly. She tried again, but she started to forget the words again. Then, the Canadian crowd all started singing the anthem to help the girl along.

That's what it should be all about.

And to hear about the Detroit fans BOOing the Canadian NATIONAL ANTHEM (I don't care if they're drunk, or in the midst of a game), it really makes me wonder about the kind of people that live in this world. The same goes for those people in Vancouver.

[Perfect Stu]

and listen, I don't wanna bring up WAR here...that's a completely different story. anyone who supports something like 9/11 should be sent to hell and have the devil take care of them.

but that's not what I'm talking about

[Bond]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
and listen, I don't wanna bring up WAR here...that's a completely different story. anyone who supports something like 9/11 should be sent to hell and have the devil take care of them.

but that's not what I'm talking about
Right, but I mean even at Iran soccer games and such they boo Americans. So I think it's a problem, but it's a problem that will never go away.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Heyyoudvd
The Palestinians simply hate the U.S. and Israel because they're modern democracies, and because they're the 2 countries with the most Jews in the world (5.2 million in Israel, about 6 million in the U.S.). Plain and simply.

Anyone who supports the 9/11 attacks or the suicide bombings is scum.

BTW, no one ever stole their land, because it was never theirs to begin with.

You get palestinians saying one thing and israelies saying another...

And I dunno.... I watch the news a lot but I still don't know 100% of what's going on for sure... but my dad and grandma seem to think Israel is at fault... and even my brother who seems to hate all arabs says like "Well apparently Israel is at fault"...

And I dunno the whole story about the land thing, but my dad mentioned it, and there were a couple people debating on MSNBC about things and the guy supporting Israel was talking about the whole Jenin thing and he was like "Well why did they make the refugee camp in Jenin anyways?" and the Palestinian supporter guy (and no, they weren't just a couple people they pulled off of the streets, and they weren't people from either side's government or anything) said something about how "The only reason they needed a refugee camp in the first place is because the Israelies pushed them all out of their homes" or something I dunno :rolleyes: the whole thing is a mess, and IMO neither side seems to want peace...

And I know stu said not to make it into a topic about the war, but I had to reply to that :p

[Heyyoudvd]

Originally posted by DeathsHand


You get palestinians saying one thing and israelies saying another...

And I dunno.... I watch the news a lot but I still don't know 100% of what's going on for sure... but my dad and grandma seem to think Israel is at fault... and even my brother who seems to hate all arabs says like "Well apparently Israel is at fault"...

And I dunno the whole story about the land thing, but my dad mentioned it, and there were a couple people debating on MSNBC about things and the guy supporting Israel was talking about the whole Jenin thing and he was like "Well why did they make the refugee camp in Jenin anyways?" and the Palestinian supporter guy (and no, they weren't just a couple people they pulled off of the streets, and they weren't people from either side's government or anything) said something about how "The only reason they needed a refugee camp in the first place is because the Israelies pushed them all out of their homes" or something I dunno :rolleyes: the whole thing is a mess, and IMO neither side seems to want peace...

And I know stu said not to make it into a topic about the war, but I had to reply to that :p


No offense, Deathshand, but you don't exactly know what's going on.
The reason the Palestinians live in poverty has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with Israel. It's 100% Yasser Arafat's fault.

The Palestinians Authority (their government) has received hundreds of millions of dollars from various places, including the U.S., the U.N., France, and even Israel (ie. in the Oslo accords in 1994).

Why does this money never make it to the Palestinians people? Because Yasser Arafat has stolen part of it for himself, and the rest he's spent on weapons to help kill more Israelis.

(ie. look at the Karine A incident, where he was caught trying to buy a ship full of weapons from Iran)

The main problems in the world's understanding of the issue are:

1.The palestinians are the weaker people, and people have the tendency to think that the stronger nation is always at fault, but in this case, it's the complete opposite.

2.Since these people are called Palestinians, and the land used to be called Palestine under the British Mandate, people believe that it's there land, but it in fact isn't. They only started calling themselves Palestinians after Israel had already become a country (1948), so people would believe it's their land, when it's not.


If you want, I have some great info on the history of Palestine that I can post, and I also have some great info on myths vs facts about the "Palestinians".

They're pretty long, so I'll only cut and past them here, at someone's request.

[Ginkasa]

Originally posted by Heyyoudvd
They're pretty long, so I'll only cut and past them here, at someone's request.


I'd like that...

[Heyyoudvd]

MYTH:
"The land of Israel is really the land of Palestine."

FACT:
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3 There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

MYTH:
"The Jews have no historic claim to Israel."

FACT:
There is only one people who have continuously lived in Israel for the past 3,700 years - the Jews. Jerusalem, in particular, has had a Jewish majority since the 1840s, 40 years prior to the beginnings of Zionism. Seventy-five percent of the land in east Jerusalem, which the press calls "historically Arab east Jerusalem," has been owned by Jews since 1947. The nations that inhabited the land prior to the Jews are no longer in existence, for they have been absorbed into various other peoples throughout the millennia. The Arabs of Israel only came to the land in 632 with the Muslim invasion

MYTH:
"The creation of the state of Israel in 1948 changed political and border arrangements between independent states that had existed for centuries."

FACT:
The boundaries of most Middle East countries were arbitrarily fixed by the Western powers after Turkey was defeated in World War I and the French and British mandates were set up. The areas allotted to Israel under the UN partition plan had all been under the control of the Ottomans, who had ruled Palestine from 1517 until 1917. When Turkey was defeated in World War I, the French took over the area now known as Lebanon and Syria. The British assumed control of Palestine and Iraq. In 1926, the borders were redrawn and Lebanon was separated from Syria. Britain installed the Emir Faisal, who had been deposed by the French in Syria, as ruler of the new kingdom of Iraq. In 1922, the British created the emirate of Transjordan, which incorporated all of Palestine east of the Jordan River. This was done so that the Emir Abdullah, whose family had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula, would have a Kingdom to rule. None of the countries that border Israel became independent until this century. Many other Arab nations became independent after Israel.

MYTH:
"Israel violates the human rights of the Palestinian Arabs."

FACT:
The FACTs are different. Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence. Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote and the only one where women can vote.

MYTH:
"The West Bank is part of Jordan."

FACT:
The West Bank was never legally part of Jordan. Under the UN's 1947 partition plan - which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected - it was to have been part of an independent Arab state in western Palestine. But the Jordanian army invaded and occupied it during the 1948 war. In 1950, Jordan annexed the West Bank. Only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did. During the 1950-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Amman lost the West Bank after the Jordanian army entered the 1967 war.

MYTH:
"Jerusalem is Islam's third most holy city."

FACT:
Muslims try to connect Jerusalem to Islam by using a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

MYTH:
"The Temple Mount has always been a Muslim holy place and Judaism has no connection to the site."

FACT:
The area of Solomon's Stables is believed to date as far back as the construction of Solomon's Temple. According to Josephus, it was in existence and was used as a place of refuge by the Jews at the time of the conquest of Jerusalem by Titus in the year 70 A.D. More authoritatively, the Koran - the holy book of Islam - describes Solomon's construction of the First Temple (34:13) and recounts the destruction of the First and Second Temples (17:7). The Jewish connection to the Temple Mount dates back more than 3,000 years and is rooted in tradition and history. When Abraham bound his son Isaac upon an altar as a sacrifice to God, he did so atop Mount Moriah, today's Temple Mount.

MYTH:
"Under Israeli rule, religious freedom has been curbed in Jerusalem."

FACT:
After the 1967 war, Israel abolished all the discriminatory laws promulgated by Jordan and adopted its own tough standard for safeguarding access to religious shrines. "Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them," Israeli law stipulates, is "liable to imprisonment for a term of five years." Israel also entrusted administration of the holy places to their respective religious authorities. Thus, for example, the Muslim Waqf has responsibility for the mosques on the Temple Mount.

MYTH:
"The Arab states have had to keep pace with an Israeli-led arms race."

FACT:
In most cases, the reverse was true. Egypt received the Soviet IL-28 bomber in 1955. It was not until 1958 that France provided Israel with a squadron of comparable Sud Vautour twin-jet tactical bombers. In 1957, Egypt obtained MiG-17 fighter planes. Israel received the comparable Super Mystere in 1959. Egypt had submarines in 1957, Israel in 1959. After the Egyptians obtained the MiG-21, the Israelis ordered the Dassault Mirage III supersonic interceptor and fighter-bomber. Egypt received ground-to-air missiles - the SA-2 - two years before Israel obtained HAWK missiles from the United States. Later, Washington reluctantly agreed to sell Israel Patton tanks.

[Heyyoudvd]

MYTH:
"Israel's destruction of Iraqi nuclear facilities was an unjust act."

FACT:
Back in June 1981 after the Israelis bombed the plant at Osirak the U.N. Security Council unanimously condemned Isreal. Washington ostentatiously held up its delivery of armaments to Israel. A decade later, however, the strike looks awfully good. Had Saddam Hussein been armed with nuclear weapons during the war with Iran, much of Tehran would by now be obliterated and large sections of Iran annexed to Iraq. More: Iraqi forces might have rolled straight from Kuwait into Saudi Arabia-long before American forces could have arrived. Today, Saddam could already control five of the oil-rich countries and thereby over half the world's oil reserves. Economic disaster would be one result; and American troops would have no good place to land.

MYTH:
"Israel has been an expansionist state since its creation."

FACT:
Israel's boundaries were determined by the United Nations when it adopted the partition resolution in 1947. In a series of defensive wars, Israel captured additional territory. On numerous occasions, Israel has withdrawn from these areas. As part of the 1974 disengagement agreement, Israel returned territories captured in the 1967 and 1973 wars to Syria. Under the terms of the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula for the third time. It had already withdrawn from large parts of the desert area it captured in its War of Independence. After capturing the entire Sinai in the 1956 Suez conflict, Israel relinquished the peninsula to Egypt a year later. In September 1983, Israel withdrew from large areas of Lebanon to positions south of the Awali River. In 1985, it completed its withdrawal from Lebanon, except for a narrow security zone just north of the Israeli border. That too was abandoned, unilaterally, in 2000. After signing peace agreements with the Palestinians, and a treaty with Jordan, Israel agreed to withdraw from most of the territory in the West Bank captured from Jordan in 1967. A small area was returned to Jordan, the rest was ceded to the Palestinian Authority. The agreement with the Palestinians also involved Israel's withdrawal in 1994 from most of the Gaza Strip, which had been captured from Egypt in 1973.

MYTH:
"Israel is the aggressor in the current conflict."

FACTS:
One: The Palestinians are the aggressor; they started the conflict, and they purposely drive it forward with fresh killing on almost a daily basis.

Two: The Palestinians regard this second intifada not as a sporadically violent protest movement but as a war, with the clear strategic aim of forcing a scared and emotionally exhausted Israel to surrender on terms that would threaten Israel's viability.

Three: As a tactic in this strategy, the Palestinians will not fight Israeli forces directly but instead have concentrated their efforts on murdering Israeli civilians. The greater the number, the more pathetically vulnerable the victims -- disco-goers, women and children in a pizza restaurant -- the better.

Four: Israel has acted defensively in this conflict; and while Israeli forces accidentally killed Palestinian civilians, their planned lethal attacks have all been aimed only at Palestinian military and terror-group leaders

[Heyyoudvd]

That's only half of what I have. Those are Myths vs. facts, but I also have a lot about the history.

I hope this doesn't upset the mods or anything.

(Please tell me if it does)




Anyways, here's the rest:





There was never a country called Palenstine to begin with. The Palestinians never had a nation-state. Here is the History of the Palestinians and Israel

__________________________

There is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab nation . . . Palestine is a name the Romans gave to Eretz Yisrael with the express purpose of infuriating the Jews . . . . Why should we use the spiteful name meant to humiliate us?
The British chose to call the land they mandated Palestine, and the Arabs picked it up as their nation's supposed ancient name, though they couldn't even pronounce it correctly and turned it into Falastin a fictional entity." — Golda Meir quoted by Sarah Honig, Jerusalem Post, 25 November 1995


Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.
Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today . . . No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. — from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily, 11 October 2000


From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries . . . . — Professor Bernard Lewis, Commentary Magazine, January 1975
Talk and writing about Israel and the Middle East feature the nouns "Palestine" and Palestinian", and the phrases "Palestinian territory" and even "Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory". All too often, these terms are used with regard to their historical or geographical meaning, so that the usage creates illusions rather than clarifies reality.

What Does "Palestine" Mean?

It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant "Sea Peoples" who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it "Palastina".

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina" derived from the Peleshet.

How Did the Land of Israel Become "Palestine"?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE, the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived still alive and free left the devastated country, but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land. There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.

The History of Palestine

Thousands of years before the Romans invented "Palastina" the land had been known as "Canaan". The Canaanites had many tiny city-states, each one at times independent and at times a vassal of an Egyptian or Hittite king. The Canaanites never united into a state.

After the Exodus from Egypt — probably in the Thirteenth Century BCE but perhaps earlier — the Children of Israel settled in the land of Canaan. There they formed first a tribal confederation, and then the Biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the post-Biblical kingdom of Judea.

From the beginning of history to this day, Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River. (In Biblical times, Ammon, Moab and Edom as well as Israel had land east of the Jordan, but they disappeared in antiquity and no other nation took their place until the British invented Trans-Jordan in the 1920s.)

After the Roman conquest of Judea, "Palastina" became a province of the pagan Roman Empire and then of the Christian Byzantine Empire, and very briefly of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire. In 638 CE, an Arab-Muslim Caliph took Palastina away from the Byzantine Empire and made it part of an Arab-Muslim Empire. The Arabs, who had no name of their own for this region, adopted the Greco-Roman name Palastina, that they pronounced "Falastin".

In that period, much of the mixed population of Palastina converted to Islam and adopted the Arabic language. They were subjects of a distant Caliph who ruled them from his capital, that was first in Damascus and later in Baghdad. They did not become a nation or an independent state, or develop a distinct society or culture.

In 1099, Christian Crusaders from Europe conquered Palestina-Falastin. After 1099, it was never again under Arab rule. The Christian Crusader kingdom was politically independent, but never developed a national identity. It remained a military outpost of Christian Europe, and lasted less than 100 years. Thereafter, Palestine was joined to Syria as a subject province first of the Mameluks, ethnically mixed slave-warriors whose center was in Egypt, and then of the Ottoman Turks, whose capital was in Istanbul.

During the First World War, the British took Palestine from the Ottoman Turks. At the end of the war, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and among its subject provinces "Palestine" was assigned to the British, to govern temporarily as a mandate from the League of Nations.

[Heyyoudvd]

The Jewish National Home

Travellers to Palestine from the Western world left records of what they saw there. The theme throughout their reports is dismal: The land was empty, neglected, abandoned, desolate, fallen into ruins

Nothing there [Jerusalem] to be seen but a little of the old walls which is yet remaining and all the rest is grass, moss and weeds. — English pilgrim in 1590

The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is of a body of population — British consul in 1857

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction. . . . One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings.
For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee . . . Nazareth is forlorn . . . Jericho lies a moldering ruin . . . Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation . . . untenanted by any living creature . . . .

A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds . . a silent, mournful expanse . . . a desolation . . . . We never saw a human being on the whole route . . . . Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country . . . .

Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes . . . desolate and unlovely . . . . — Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867

The restoration of the "desolate and unlovely" land began in the latter half of the Nineteenth Century with the first Jewish pioneers. Their labors created newer and better conditions and opportunities, which in turn attracted migrants from many parts of the Middle East, both Arabs and others.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917, confirmed by the League of Nations Mandate, commited the British Government to the principle that "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish National Home, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object. . . . " It was specified both that this area be open to "close Jewish settlement" and that the rights of all inhabitants already in the country be preserved and protected.

Mandate Palestine originally included all of what is now Jordan, as well as all of what is now Israel, and the territories between them. However, when Great Britain's protégé Emir Abdullah was forced to leave the ancestral Hashemite domain in Arabia, the British created a realm for him that included all of Manfate Palestine east of the Jordan River. There was no traditional or historic Arab name for this land, so it was called after the river: first Trans-Jordan and later Jordan.

By this political act, that violated the conditions of the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate, the British cut more than 75 percent out of the Jewish National Home. No Jew has ever been permitted to reside in Trans-Jordan/Jordan.

Less than 25 percent then remained of Mandate Palestine, and even in this remnant, the British violated the Balfour and Mandate requirements for a "Jewish National Home" and for "close Jewish settlement". They progressively restricted where Jews could buy land, where they could live, build, farm or work.

After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel was finally able to settle some small part of those lands from which the Jews had been debarred by the British. Successive British governments regularly condemn their settlement as "illegal". In truth, it was the British who had acted illegally in banning Jews from these parts of the Jewish National Home.

[Heyyoudvd]

And don't think I was crazy enough to type all that out, since it would take me like a week.

I found it some website, and saved it to my PC because I thought it was very interesting and cleared up a lot of things.
I can't remember the sites I found it at, or else I'd post the URL's.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

If only I had control of huge bombs, I could eliminate a lot of these problems between all these poor countries...

[GameMaster]

Don't take it personally Stu. An uncontrollable instinct takes over man's mind when exposed to primitive competition.

[Ginkasa]

Originally posted by nWoCHRISnWo
If only I had control of huge bombs, I could eliminate a lot of these problems between all these poor countries...



And the you'd start a whole lot more problems with a lot more more powerful countries.


Once anybody besides the Palestinians and Israelis gets directly into this war it'll escalate to gigantic proportions.







Heyyoudvd, that was very interesting... Thanks :D

[ghettodude]

I think booing a national anthem is wrong.. it is degrading and wrong... i heard don cherry talking about it.. but i didnt actually see the raptors game on sunday (one of the rare games i missed..) and now that i heard about that.. it makes me kinda mad.... but it doesnt make me as mad as the whole canada vs the US thing in general... i dont mind jokes and stuff like that... but sometimes its like we dont realize we live on the same continent...

(i wont comment about the whole palestinian thing cuz i dont want to talk about something i dont know about as well as i should if i wanted to make a case...)

[Jin]

First I'm going to examine just a few quotes from your first post. I won't bother making responses to all of your posts, because that would take way too long.

"The palestinians are the weaker people, and people have the tendency to think that the stronger nation is always at fault, but in this case, it's the complete opposite."

Although Isreal is a nuclear power, they are the minority in the middle east. Not only Arafat, and the Palestinian people are involved, but nearly all the countries of that area with the exception of Turkey and Jordan are supporting Palestine and are willing to back them up to the fullest.

Since these people are called Palestinians, and the land used to be called Palestine under the British Mandate, people believe that it's there land, but it in fact isn't. They only started calling themselves Palestinians after Israel had already become a country (1948), so people would believe it's their land, when it's not.

That was a misconception that aided in the United States taking hundreds of miles of land from the Native Americans. Just because a certain group of people don't have an official country or government to follow under, doesn't mean that they don't have any rights what so ever to the land. That's what this is saying. It's totally one sided.

"The reason the Palestinians live in poverty has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with Israel"

I can't really say much here, because it's very close to the truth.:D

It's 100% Yasser Arafat's fault.

Wow, that goes way beyond politically incorrect. To blame a whole conflict which has been going on for decades only on one man is ludicrous. I must admit that Arafat has made many, many mistakes, and may have bad intentions, but this quote shows how biased this article is, and how it should be disregarded. Heh... like Isreal's leader is a perfect saint, who never did anything wrong in his entire life and only cares about what's right for the Palestinians.:rolleyes:

No offense Heyyoudvd, but those facts that you have may be true, but those aren't all the facts. Whoever wrote that article was biased towards Isreal, no doubt. I'm sure there would be just as many reasons for the Palestinians to keep the land. Sure you could say that the Jewish people had the land first, but if a person leaves their seat on a bench and returns to find it occupied do they automatically have the right to push the person out who took it?

Anyway, as much as I supported Palestine in this thread, I personally think Isreal has the right to the land, but you have to look at both sides before you make your decision off of some biased article.

[Revival]

Well, I don't know about other people, but I show the same respect to the Canadian anthem as I do American..

That is just plain f**ked up Stu.. they shouldn't be booing Canada..

:canada: :canada: :canada:

[Xantar]

Originally posted by Perfect Stu
And to hear about the Detroit fans BOOing the Canadian NATIONAL ANTHEM (I don't care if they're drunk, or in the midst of a game), it really makes me wonder about the kind of people that live in this world. The same goes for those people in Vancouver.

Well, now you understand why one of my central dogmas is to never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers. My guess is that if there had only been two people watching the game, there would have been a lot less booing. In fact, there would have been no booing at all.

But hey, what can you do except sit back, laugh at the stupidity of it all and resolve not to become one of them?

[Professor S]

Well, lets not paint a biased picture here. So far we have had examples of mainly the big bad Americans picking on those poor little Canadians. Lets not be so silly. It is a 2 way street and as a wrestling fan I have seen probably 1,000 times more mob nationalism on WWF Canadian broadcasts. This ranges from booing, to flag waving, to spitting, etc.

This is also done completely out of the context of the current storylines. The Canadian fans simply cheer for whoever is Canadian and boo anyone who wrestles them. I also remember this happening not too long after 9/11.

Now I'm not saying that Canadians are bad people, but just that mob psychology goes both ways and is not a trademark of only America.

I also didn't hear about the Canadians being killed by friendly fire until I read this thread, so odds are that many of them didn't either. They would have booed anything that was not oriented with the Detroit Pistons.

Geez, I mean thank God it wasn't at a pro lacrosse game. They REALLY lay into the other teams at those games.

I support booing. Take a chill pill. This is a GAME, NOT real life. If this was in Canada and they booed OUR national anthem, I would have laughed. Americans are VERY competetive, and this competetiveness is what has built America into the world leading nation that it is.

While this may come out in ugly ways at times, but I would rather tolerate the ugliness and keep our competetive nature.

[BlueFire]

On the subject of Palestine and Israel...

I think it's stupid that keep fighting for a lost cause. I don't think it's the "holy land" they're after anymore...:-o It's just pure human ignorance, in my opinion. Nothing we can do about it. We just sit and watch as they destroy themselves....Sad..yes...True? Maybe. Maybe they will realize the situation they're in. They're people and homes have been ravaged by war. Or maybe we could do something, but that seems impossible.


Now on the Candian thing..
Who cares if those assholes were booing? Seriously...You are giving them the attention they want. That's ignorance also. I don't care if We BOOed Canada. I don't care if they BOOed us. It's just stupid, so I never pay attention to it.

[Bond]

I think the problem between Israel and Palestine is too complex for people to understand who aren't directly involved in the conflict, including myself.

But if you look in history most major conflicts aren't settled with peace, they are settled with wars and one side winning. Which I think is the only way to solve anything.

[One Winged Angel]

A couple days ago I was really sickened by this one person while playing Medal of Honor on the comp.

We were trying to kill eachother and everything. After I kill him 5 times he was very angry. His quote was...

"That was very Jewish!!!"

I thought I should have said this in here =\

[Heyyoudvd]

Jin, it's the reason everything escalated over the past few years is because of Arafat.

The man has been a terrorist his entire life.
He used to live in Tunisia, where he orchestrated many plane hijackings.

In the 70's, he and the Palestinians tried overthrowing the Jordanian government, in the 80's, he tried over throwing the Lebanese government, and now he's trying to do the same to Israel.

He also started the Fatah in the late 50's, which is widely recognized as a terrorist organization.


BTW, most people don't realize this, but suicide bombings are a very recent idea. They only started in Israel in 1994-95, which is "coincidentally" only 1 year after Arafat came to Israel from exile in Tunis.

He is in direct control of the terrorism going on in Israel, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

All of the other 22 Arab countries are dictatorships, proving that these people can't function without a leader controlling them. This is exactly what Arafat is.


Another thing: Ariel Sharon is a great man. he's a war hero. Not a terrorist or any other crap like that.

People always say that he committied massacres in Lebanon in 1982, but this is complete fabrication.

In 1982, the Muslim Lebanese had been oppressing the Christian Lebanese, murdering many of them. At the same time, they had been constantly attacking Israek from the north, murdering Israelis.

Israel got sick of this, and sent in troops (with Ariel Sharon as the General) to stop these attacks. Israel captured an area, which included two muslim Lebanese camps, known as Sabra and Shatilla.

Because of this, the Christian Lebanese decided to hit the muslims when they were down, after being oppressed for so long), so they went in at night, and massacred about 800 muslim Lebanese.

Ariel Sharon and Israel didn't massacre anyone, rather he's just accused for everything for no reason.

Notice how the actual perpetrators of the massacre (the christian lebanese) are never accused of anything....

This just shows how anti-Israel the world is, and has always been.

Sharon also helped Israel through many wars, in which many arabs nations 'ganged up' on Israel abd tried to "push it into the sea", which has always been a popular expression in the Arab world.

[Jin]

Originally posted by Heyyoudvd

Another thing: Ariel Sharon is a great man. he's a war hero. Not a terrorist or any other crap like that.


That's just an opinion. To the Palestinians Arafat is a great man. Also, being a war hero means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Hitler was a war hero who recieved an iron cross on two different occassions.

I know Arafat's a leader that doesn't want peace and is responsible for many of the suicide bombings, and for that reason I believe Isreal has the right to the land like I stated in my last post. All I'm saying is that you should look at it not only from the Isrealite perspective, but also from the Palestinian viewpoint. Both leaders have their flaws, and are very stubborn in my opinion.

The only way peace will come to that area is if one get's elliminated, or both can agree to live together. The former won't likely happen though, because the UN or US will most likely intervene. So it's just a matter of when they'll finally give up the fighting, and agree to live peacefully together. This may not happen for many years though since the two can't agree upon any peace treaties at the moment. Even then there will be a lot of tension between the two.

[GameMaster]

Originally posted by NeonNightCloud
A couple days ago I was really sickened by this one person while playing Medal of Honor on the comp.

We were trying to kill eachother and everything. After I kill him 5 times he was very angry. His quote was...

"That was very Jewish!!!"

I thought I should have said this in here =\

You should have steroeotyped him back by using the color of his skin or eyes to his disadvantage. ;)

Just kidding. Seriously though, did you say something to him about it? You should tell people when you're insulted or offended. They seem to think no one cares but everyone has feelings.

[Professor S]

NeonNightCloud, not only was that guys insult offensive, BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE. LOL

You were better at a killing people than he was, SO YOUR JEWISH? I mean, if a guy is going to insult you by throwing out racial slurs, he should at least reference an actual stereotype if he wants to gain any effect from it.

If you had beat him at Monopoly, at least the offensive comment would have had an effect. But hey, what do you expect from racists... INTELLIGENCE? Not bloody likely.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally posted by The Strangler
NeonNightCloud, not only was that guys insult offensive, BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE. LOL

You were better at a killing people than he was, SO YOUR JEWISH? I mean, if a guy is going to insult you by throwing out racial slurs, he should at least reference an actual stereotype if he wants to gain any effect from it.

If you had beat him at Monopoly, at least the offensive comment would have had an effect. But hey, what do you expect from racists... INTELLIGENCE? Not bloody likely.

lol

Stupid Nazis

My friend Jordan is Jewish. He was so unbelievably pissed. Also my mother is Jewish. It made me upset.

[Professor S]

And it should have. Jews have been abused more than any other people in the world second to none. They have been enslaved, tortured and even threatened with genocide on numerous occasions all because they have historically been a closed culture in many ways and don't believe in the new testament.

Finally, the Jewish people are given a home to call their own in the modern world, and what happens? PEOPLE TRY AND KILL THEM AGAIN!!! WHAT????

I have no issues with what Isreal is doing. They kicked Palestine's ass 50 years ago because Palestine wanted to run them out 3 YEARS AFTER THE HOLOCAUST. They kicked their ass, and took their land. Its theirs now because Palestine tried to kill them and lost. Argument over.

I actually think that Isreal should do it again. Kick more ass, take more land. Maybe after fifty losing wars when Palestine has no more land they'll come to their damn senses and realizes you shouldn't f**k with hard core Isrealie Jews.

As for the whole "Muslim Holy Land" argument, its a giant sack of s**t. If a camel craps on a dune it becomes holy land in the Middle East. Terrorists claim holy lands indiscriminantly so that they can justify their horrific actions to themselves.

Basically what has happened in the Middle East is that their rich oppressive leaders have done aan excellent job of twisting the teachings of the Koran, to switch the poor, starving, diseased, and very angry eyes of their people away from them, who have left their people to ROT, to the United States. They blame the US for for their countries poor and sickly and the people buy it.

Look at what happened in Afghanistan. When the US was feeding the starving people of Afghanistan, where was the rest of their Middle Eastern brethren? Did they drop food? NO. Did they give any of their consuderable wealth? NO. They all criticized the US and asked "Why isn't the US doing enough?" And who do you think will be spending all the money to build Afghanistan into anm actual thriving nation? JORDAN? Doubt it. It'll be the CIVILIZED WORLD, not the Middle East.

And their people bought it.

A million years from know when the great history books are written about our world, the Middle East will go down as a culture that has failed miserably. A land with UNLIMITED RESOURCES that could barely get passed the middle ages. Its sad really.

[Heyyoudvd]

Strangler, to expand on what you said about Israel being correvt in what it's doing, that land has always belonged to the Jews, and the Jews didn't even take it from the Palestinians in a war (which would have been okay, like you said, anyways)

The Jews have lived there for 3300 years, and the Palestinians only came into existecen recently.

I made some really long posts in this thread about the history, and if you go back an read them, you'll see how not only is the land rightfully the Jews' now, but it always has been.

[TheGrimReaper]

I don't know, I'm not really interested in that whole Isreal thing, it makes no new developments and doesn't interest me.

[Professor S]

I was under the impression that during conflicts during the late forties or early fifties Isreal occupied Muslim lands not originally cordoned off during creation of Isreal as an indendent state after they kicked ass and took names. Looks like I was misinformed.

[Heyyoudvd]

Originally posted by The Strangler
I was under the impression that during conflicts during the late forties or early fifties Isreal occupied Muslim lands not originally cordoned off during creation of Isreal as an indendent state after they kicked ass and took names. Looks like I was misinformed.


I don't blame you. There are so many people in the world that believe the Palestinian lies.

I used to not understand what was going on over there either, but then I did a lot of research on the subject, and I now see through all this propaganda (all lies) about how Israel is stealing Palestinian land and murdering innocent Palestinians.

Most of the people who state things like this (about Israel stealing from, and oppressing the Palestinains) are merely misinformed because of the media's hatred towards Israel, and because of all the anti-Semitism occurring in this twisted world we live in.