I hate your President.

[Dylflon]

Seriously guys. I don't care if you're republican or democrat by heart. Let's put ideologies and party lines aside for a minute and ponder this important question:

Has the Bush administartion actually accomplished anything beneficial for the American people in the last six years?

I'm inclined to say no.

As far as I know he hasn't done anything to further the American people at all. His administration uses scare tactics to make the people think they need them. When election time comes Cheney says "If you vote for Kerry, we will be attacked by terrorists".

The Bush administrations spends all of your money on war. Trillions of dollars. Where will this leave your economy when it's all over? Has Bush improved your schools? Your health care? Your communities? Your environment? Your economy.

He went to war on false pretenses. He said that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. And then a couple years down the road he DENIES having said anything of the sort.

I ask you: What has he accomplished?

I hate your president.

[BlueFire]

Oh, brother...

[KillerGremlin]

He's kept the oil flowin'...

we gotta pipe it through all those countries i guess, who knows


and he's made me laugh more than i can remember, snl, late night, radio, live speeches

he's promoted better education


and John Kerry was no better, what with his crazy Iraq-war resolutions. The resolution is we are in Iraq and will be in Iraq until there is no more fighting out there or they somehow manage to set up a government that doesn't need us. AKA we're in it for the loooonnnnngggg haul.


as long as i can download my stuff for free on the internet and enjoy the simple pleasures of life like taco bell and tv shows like my name is earl and the simpsons i got nothin' to complain about. politics and debating is just a fun pastime.

[Typhoid]

The spice must flow.

[Jonbo298]

Soon enough hopefully someone comes in that cleans up the mess Bush has left. Pumping our tax dollars into a false war basically is whats pissing people off the most. Because from what I've heard, he broke laws by starting the war without getting UN Approval (I could be wrong but thats what I remembered since he just decides to come on TV one night and say "Hey USA, We're going into Iraq whether you like it or not")

And as far as I'm concerned, he hasnt done anything to benefit me or others I know. All the economy has done is go down the crapper, push the national debt back up through the roof. Granted, he's had some good moments but tax cuts only get US Citizens to shut up temporarily and enjoy the extra money.

[Bond]

The Bush administrations spends all of your money on war.
Actually more money is still being spent on social welfare programs than the war.

Where will this leave your economy when it's all over?
#1?

Has Bush improved your schools?
Do presidents really ever improve schools by themselves?

Your health care?
My healthcare has never been better. I go to a hospital that has a piano player in the atrium where you enter.

He went to war on false pretenses. He said that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. And then a couple years down the road he DENIES having said anything of the sort.
I always thought it was rather obvious from the beginning we went to war in Iraq to secure the oil supply and stabilize the Middle East. Sure it was spun because of all those WMDs. But people would much rather go to war because of weapons of mass destruction than to stabilize a region that is on another continent.

I ask you: What has he accomplished?
More than you ever will?

(I'm hoping your post was a joke)

[Ginkasa]

I really hate it when people decide to insult each other in what could otherwise be an interesting and thoughtful debate...

Especially when there's no reason to insult the other beyond he thinks differently...

Politics make people stupid...


/me shrugs and walks away

[Bond]

Interestingly both debates end in the same manner.

[Crash]

here's a list, some you may think is beneficial, some not. BTW if you're too lazy to read it, it means he has done a heck of a lot of good things, doesn't it?

Abortion & Traditional Values

1. Banned Partial Birth Abortion — by far the most significant roll-back of abortion on demand since Roe v. Wade.

2. Reversed Clinton's move to strike Reagan's anti-abortion Mexico Policy.

3. By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton's policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.

4. By EO, prohibited federal funds for international family planning groups that provide abortions and related services.

5. Upheld the ban on abortions at military hospitals.

6. Made $33 million available for abstinence education programs in 2004.

7. Supports the Defense of Marriage Act — and a Constitutional amendment saying marriage is between one man and one woman.

8. Requires states to conduct criminal background checks on prospective foster and adoptive parents.

9. Requires districts to let students transfer out of dangerous schools.

10. Requires schools to have a zero-tolerance policy for classroom disruption (reintroducing discipline into classrooms).

11. Signed the Teacher Protection Act, which protects teachers from lawsuits related to student discipline.

12. Expanded the role of faith-based and community organizations in after-school programs.

Budget, Taxes & Economy

1. Signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest dollar-value tax cut in world history.

2. Supports permanent elimination of the death tax.

3. Turned around an inherited economy that was in recession, and deeply shocked as a result of the 9/11 attacks.

4. Is seeking legislation to amend the Constitution to give the president line-item veto authority.

5. In process of permanently eliminating IRS marriage penalty.

6. Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new people.

7. Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.

8. Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to implement; rules would have shut down every home business in America.

9. Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals.

10. Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains.

11. Signed trade promotion authority.

12. Reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.

13. Fight Europe's ban on importing biotech crops from the United States.

14. Exempt food from unilateral trade sanctions and embargoes.

15. Provided $20 million to states to help people with disabilities work from home.

16. Created a fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled.

17. Increased the annual contribution limit on Education IRA's from $500 to $2,000 per child.

18. Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit and provide $1 billion over five years to increase the credit to $10,000.

19. Grant a complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition savings plans.

20. Reduced H1B visas from a high of 195,000 per year to 66,000 per year.

Character & Conduct as President

1. Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the presidency.

2. Has reintroduced the mention of God and faith into public discourse.

3. Handled himself with enormous courage, dignity, grace, determination, and leadership in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 hijackings and anthrax attacks. He almost single-handedly held this country together during those searing days:

Just three days after the attacks, in his address at the National Cathedral, the President reassured the nation when he said: "War has been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder. This nation is peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger. This conflict was begun on the timing and terms of others. It will end in a way, and at an hour, of our choosing."

On Friday, September 14, 2001, President Bush visited Ground Zero. Standing on a crushed and burned fire engine atop the smoldering pile at Ground Zero, he put his arm around a retired firefighter who had volunteered to help, and began speaking to the crowd. Rescue workers shouted that they could not hear him. Someone handed him a small American flag and bullhorn. The President spontaneously shouted: "I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." The crowd roared with cheers and chants of "USA! USA! USA!" Then he raised that American flag and rallied a nation.

Education & Employment Training

1. Signed the No Child Left Behind Act, delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation (challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations). The very liberal California Teachers union is currently running radio ads against the accountability provisions of this Act.

2. Announced "Jobs for the 21st Century," a comprehensive plan to better prepare workers for jobs in the new millennium by strengthening post-secondary education and job training, and by improving high school education.

3. Is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)

4. Requires annual reading and math tests in grades three through eight.

5. Requires states to participate in the National Assessment of Education Progress, or an equivalent program, to establish a national benchmark for academic performance.

6. Requires school-by-school accountability report cards.

7. Established a $2.4 billion fund to help states implement teacher accountability systems.

8. Increased funding for the Troops-to-Teachers program, which recruits former military personnel to become teachers.

Environment & Energy

1. Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.

2. Submitted a comprehensive Energy Plan (awaits Congressional action). The plan works to develop cleaner technology, produce more natural gas here at home, make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy, improve national grid, etc.

3. Established a $10 million grant program to promote private conservation initiatives.

4. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.

5. Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary cleanup of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.

6. Part of national forests cleanup: Restricted judicial challenges (based on the Endangered Species Act and other challenges), and removed the need for an Environmental Impact Statement before removing fuels/logging to reduce fire danger.

7. Killed Clinton's CO2 rules that were choking off all of the electricity surplus to California.

8. Provided matching grants for state programs that help private landowners protect rare species.

Defense & Foreign Policy

1. Successfully executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom.

2. Saddam Hussein is now in prison. His two murderous sons are dead. All but a handful of the regime's senior members were killed or captured.

3. Leader by leader and member by member, al Maida is being hunted down in dozens of countries around the world. Of the senior al Qaeda leaders, operational managers, and key facilitators the U.S. Government has been tracking, nearly two-thirds have been taken into custody or killed. The detentions or deaths of senior al Qaeda leaders, including Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11, and Muhammad Atef, Osama bin Laden's second-in-command until his death in late 2001, have been important in the War on Terror.

4. Disarmed Libya of its chemical, nuclear and biological WMD's without bribes or bloodshed.

5. Continues to execute the War On Terror, getting worldwide cooperation to track funds/terrorists. Has cut off much of the terrorists' funding, and captured or killed many key leaders of the al Qaeda network.

6. Initiated a comprehensive review of our military, which was completed just prior to 9/11/01, and which accurately reported that ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE capabilities were critical in the 21st Century.

7. Killed the old US/Soviet Union ABM Treaty that was preventing the U.S. from deploying our ABM defenses.

8. Has been one of the strongest, if not THE strongest friend Israel has ever hand in the U.S. presidency.

9. Part of the coalition for an Israeli/Palestinian "Roadmap to Peace," along with Great Britain, Russia and the EU.

10. Pushed through THREE raises for our military. Increased military pay by more than $1 billion a year.

11. Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia.

12. Started withdrawing our troops from Bosnia, and has announced withdrawal of our troops from Germany and the Korean DMZ.

13. Prohibited putting U.S. troops under U.N. command.

14. Paid back UN dues only in return for reforms and reduction of U.S. share of the costs.

15. Earmarked at least 20 percent of the Defense procurement budget for next-generation weaponry.

16. Increased defense research and development spending by at least $20 billion from fiscal 2002 to 2006.

17. Ordered a comprehensive review of military weapons and strategy.

18. Ordered a review of overseas deployments.

19. Ordered renovation of military housing. The military has already upgraded about 10 percent of its inventory and expects to modernize 76,000 additional homes this year.

20. Is working to tighten restrictions on military-technology exports.

21. Brought back our EP-3 intel plane and crew from China without any bribes or bloodshed.

Globalization & Internationalism

1. Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities and not become another League of Nations (in other words, showed the UN to be completely irrelevant).

2. Killed U.S. involvement in the International Criminal Court.

3. Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for gun control (i.e., the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking Treaty).

4. The only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.

5. Told the Congress and the world, "America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our country."

Government Reform

1. Improved government efficiency by putting hundreds of thousands of jobs put up for bid. This weakens public-sector unions and cuts undeserved pay raises.

2. Initiated review of all federal agencies with the goal of eliminating federal jobs (completed September 2003) in an effort to reduce the size of the federal government while increasing private sector jobs.

3. Led the most extensive reorganization the Federal bureaucracy in over 50 years: After 9/11, condensed 20+ overlapping agencies and their intelligence sectors into one agency, the Department of Homeland Security.

4. Ordered each agency to draft a five-year plan to restructure itself, with fewer managers.

5. Converted federal service contracts to performance-based contracts wherever possible so that the contractor has measurable performance goals.

Health

1. Strengthen the National Health Service Corps to put more physicians in the neediest areas, and make its scholarship funds tax-free.

2. Double the research budget of the National Institutes of Health.

3. Signed Medicare Reform, which includes:

A 10-year privatization option.

Prescription drug benefits: Prior to this reform, Medicare paid for extended hospital stays for ulcer surgery, for example, at a cost of about $28,000 per patient. Yet Medicare would not pay for the drugs that eliminate the cause of most ulcers, drugs that cost about $500 a year. Now, drug coverage under Medicare will allow seniors to replace more expensive surgeries and hospitalizations with less expensive prescription medicine.

More health care choices: As President Bush stated, "…when seniors have the ability to make choices, health care plans within Medicare will have to compete for their business by offering higher quality service [at lower cost]. For the seniors of America, more choices and more control will mean better health care. These are the kinds of health care options we give to the members of Congress and federal employees. What's good for members of Congress is also good for seniors.

New Health Savings Accounts: Effective January 1, 2004, Americans can set aside up to $4,500 every year, tax free, to save for medical expenses. Depending on your tax bracket, that means you'll save between 10 to 35 percent on any costs covered by money in your account. Every year, the money not spent would stay in the account and gain interest tax-free, just like an IRA. These accounts will be good for small business owners, and employees. More businesses can focus on covering workers for major medical problems, such as hospitalization for an injury or illness. At the same time, employees and their families will use these accounts to cover doctors visits, or lab tests, or other smaller costs. Some employers will contribute to employee health accounts. This will help more American families get the health care they need at the price they can afford.

Homeland Security, Border Enforcement & Immigration

1. *See Government Reform above. Under President Bush's leadership, America has made an unprecedented commitment to homeland security.

2. Has CONSTRUCTION in process on the first 10 ABM silos in Alaska so that America will have a defense against North Korean nukes. Has ordered national and theater ballistic missile defenses to be deployed by 2004.

3. Announced a 9.7% increase in government-wide homeland security funding in his FY 2005 budget, nearly tripling the FY 2001 levels (excluding the Department of Defense and Project BioShield).

4. Before DHS was created, there were inspectors from three different agencies of the Federal Government and Border Patrol officers protecting our borders. Through DHS, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) now consolidates all border activities into a single agency to create "one face at the border." This not only better secures the borders of the United States, but it also eliminates many of the inefficiencies that occurred under the old system. With over 18,000 CBP inspectors and 11,000 Border Patrol agents, CBP has 29,000 uniformed officers on our borders.

5. The Border Patrol is continuing installation of monitoring devices along the borders to detect illegal activity.

6. Launched Operation Tarmac to investigate businesses and workers in the secure areas of domestic airports and ensure immigration law compliance. Since 9/11, DHS has audited 3,640 businesses, examined 259,037 employee records, arrested 1,030 unauthorized workers, and participated in the criminal indictment of 774 individuals.

7. Since September 11, 2001, the Coast Guard has conducted more than 124,000 port security patrols, 13,000 air patrols, boarded more than 92,000 vessels, interdicted over 14,000 individuals attempting to enter the United States illegally, and created and maintained more than 90 Maritime Security Zones.

8. Announced the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS), an internet-based system that is improving America's ability to track and monitor foreign students and exchange visitors. Over 870,000 students are registered in SEVIS. Of 285 completed field investigations, 71 aliens were arrested.

9. This week, the US-VISIT program began to digitally collect biometric identifiers to record the entry and exit of aliens who travel into the U.S on a visa. Together with the standard information, this new program will confirm compliance with visa and immigration policies.

10. Eliminated INS bureaucratic redundancies and lack of accountability.

11. Split the Immigration and Naturalization Service into two agencies: one to protect the border and interior, the other to deal with naturalization.

12. Signed the workplace verification bill to prevent hiring of illegal aliens.

13. Established a six-month deadline for processing immigration applications.

14. Information regarding nearly 100% of all containerized cargo is carefully screened by DHS before it arrives in the United States. Higher risk shipments are physically inspected for terrorist weapons and contraband prior to being released from the port of entry. Advanced technologies are being deployed to identify warning signs of chemical, biological, or radiological attacks. Since September 11, 2001, hundreds of thousands of first responders across America have been trained to recognize and respond to the effects of a WMD attack.

Judiciary & Tort Reform

1. Is urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits.

2. Killed the liberal ABA's unconstitutional role in vetting federal judges. The Senate is supposed to advise and consent, not the ABA.

3. Is nominating strong, conservative judges to the judiciary.

4. Supports class action reform bill which limits lawyer fees so that more settlement money goes to victims.

Politics

1. His leadership resulted in Republican gains in the House and Senate, solidifying Republican control of both houses of Congress and the presidency.

2. Signed an EO enforcing the Supreme Court's Beck decision regarding union dues being used for political campaigns against individual's wishes.

Second Amendment

1. Ordered Attorney General Ashcroft to formally notify the Supreme Court that the OFFICIAL U.S. government position on the 2nd Amendment is that it supports INDIVIDUAL rights to own firearms, and is NOT a Leftist-imagined "collective" right.

2. Signed TWO bills into law that arm our pilots with handguns in the cockpit.

3. Currently pushing for full immunity from lawsuits for our national gun manufacturers.

4. *See Globalization & Internationalism.

Traditional Values, Compassion & Volunteerism

1. Endorses and promotes "The Responsibility Era." President Bush often speaks of the necessity of personal responsibility and civic volunteerism. He said, "In a compassionate society, people respect one another and take responsibility for the decisions they make in life. My hope is to change the culture from one that has said, if it feels good, do it; if you've got a problem, blame somebody else — to one in which every single American understands that he or she is responsible for the decisions that you make; you're responsible for loving your children with all your heart and all your soul; you're responsible for being involved with the quality of the education of your children; you're responsible for making sure the community in which you live is safe; you're responsible for loving your neighbor, just like you would like to be loved yourself."

2. Started the USA Freedom Corps, the most comprehensive clearinghouse of volunteer opportunities ever offered. For the first time in history, Americans can enter geographic information about where they want to get involved, such as state or zip code, as well as areas of interest ranging from education to the environment, and they can access volunteer opportunities offered by more than 50,000 organizations across the country and around the world.

3. Established the The White House Office and the Centers for the Faith-Based and Community Initiative — located in seven Federal agencies. The faith-based initiative supports the essential work of these important organizations. The goal is to make sure that grassroots leaders can compete on an equal footing for federal dollars, receive greater private support, and face fewer bureaucratic barriers. Work focuses on at-risk youth, ex-offenders, the homeless and hungry, substance abusers, those with HIV/AIDS, and welfare-to-work families.

4. The White House released a guidebook fully describing the Administration's belief that faith-based groups have a Constitutionally-protected right to maintain their religious identity through hiring — even when Federal funds are involved.

5. Issued an EO implementing the Supreme Court's Olmstead ruling, which requires moving disabled people from institutions to community-based facilities when possible.

6.Increased funding for low-interest loan programs to help people with disabilities purchase devices to assist them.

7. Revised the Department of Housing and Urban Development's Section 8 rent subsidies to disabled people, permitting them to use up to a year's worth of vouchers to finance down payments on homes. HUD has started pilot programs in 11 states.

8. Committed US funds to purchase medicine for millions of men, women and children now suffering with AIDS in Africa.

9. Heeding the words of our own Declaration of Independence, the president laid out the non-negotiable demands of human dignity for all people everywhere. On January 29, 2002, he said, "No nation owns these aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the non-negotiable demands of human dignity." As stated by the President, they are a virtual manifesto of conservative principles:

Equal Justice Freedom of Speech Limited Government Power Private Property Rights Religious Tolerance Respect for Women Rule of Law

[Typhoid]

So no 12 year old raped girls can get an abortion if the rape leads to pregnancy?
Brava.
What a child of love that will be.

The banning/tightening up of abortions thing is subjective.
Bush is Anti-Abortion because he is pro-god.
Therefore, the rest of American must all be pro-god and anti-abortion.


12. Expanded the role of faith-based and community organizations in after-school programs.

Why faith-based? Why should it make a freakin' difference?


16. Created a fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled.
How much is in that fund? I can create a fund right now to make a ladder to the moon, if I so wish.


1. Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the presidency.

Subjective.


4. Is seeking legislation to amend the Constitution to give the president line-item veto authority.

First of all, the is states it hasnt been completed. Secondly, how is being able to take away the democratic right from the public and issue a veto a good thing?

2. Has reintroduced the mention of God and faith into public discourse.

The keyword is PUBLIC. If people dont believe in God, why force them to listen to it. People have differences of opinions. Suck it up. Dont swim in my pool and I wont piss on your door. Is he going to have a war on athiesm next?



1. Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.

Goody goody.

1. Successfully executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom.

Ha...hahaha. It should say they live in 'less tyranny'.

13. Prohibited putting U.S. troops under U.N. command.

Yes, thats what is good. Defiance towards the UN. Nothing says "team player" more than "Dont **** with my toys, friends".

3. Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for gun control (i.e., the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking Treaty).

Praise Lord Jesus President, he's allowing people to continue holding up liquor stores and kids to get their paws on guns.

3. Is nominating strong, conservative judges to the judiciary.

Yes, lets throw aside the fact some Liberal judges may be good. **** it, they arent conservative.


Crash, the more I read that, the more I really hoped your " it means he has done a heck of a lot of good things, doesn't it?" statement was complete sarcasm.

[Crash]

actually... I didnt' read MOST of them. I stole from another site. :D

But yeah, if you're a conservative, he's done a LOT of good things for conservatives. But..... it's all up to your interpretation.


In either case, I'm going to concentrate on my own life, not how the president can help me out. I'm not looking for the government to solve all the problems in the world.

Hopefully the next one, will make this world even better than it is now.

[DarkMaster]

I hate him too. He suxx0rs, lol

[KillerGremlin]

i've always been pro-choice but if it were up to me i'd go with adoption, unless my parents really really couldn't find out i was pregnant.

[Professor S]

I don't love President Bush either, I just like some of what he does and stands for. But in any case, love him or hate him, to say that he has done NOTHING good in his presidency is just partisan babble. Here are some areas that ANYONE can objectively admit he has successfully accomplished for the good of everyone:

1) Home Ownership: His policy and benefits to first time homeowners have created the single largest percentage amount of home owners in American history. It was his policy and it succeeded beyond even his expectations. This is extremely important because many financial experts believe the biggest hurdle towards personal financial success is real estate ownership.

2) Down with Kyoto Treaty: I know immediately you might see this as a big negative, but thats on first blush. The fact is this had almost nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with One World Politics, as was admitted by UN officials. China was never going to sign that treaty and for America to do so would have held the US under a severe disadvantage for the long term and would have damaged our economy considerably. There are better ways to be eco-friendly without hamstringing ourselves.

3) Security: The fact is there haven't been any attacks since 9/11 and President Bush's policies in this area have helped lead to the thwarting of at least 2 documented attack plans by our enemies. There may have been even more. If you don't believe that number, fine, check for yourselves.

4) The Economy: Regardless of his questionable spending policies the economy is booming, and yes it is booming, and unemployment is lower than it was under Clinton and tax revenues are increasing along with the economy. Yes, our debt is increasing, but spending is a separate issue and one that I dislike him for.

I know many of you might think I'm crazy for listing these as objective benefits of his presidency, and you are free to feel that way. I'm also free to think you're wrong. :)

[Dylflon]

Why I respect Professor S's arguements: though very set in his opinions, he offers good arguements and does the research to back it up.

Why I don't respect Bond's arguments: He makes it personal, trying to defame people and their points of views.



You do have some good points there, Strangy. Actually I only really agree with your first point and somewhat your fourth. I do support the Kyoto treaty and don't think Bush is the sole reason you haven't been attacked.

But all that aside, I by and large don't favor Bush in any form of positive light. I don't like an administration that rules through fear and lies through their teeth to accomplish goals.

[Typhoid]

3) Security: The fact is there haven't been any attacks since 9/11 and President Bush's policies in this area have helped lead to the thwarting of at least 2 documented attack plans by our enemies. There may have been even more. If you don't believe that number, fine, check for yourselves.

There also weren't large-scale terror attacks prior to 9/11.


Your point for number 3 reminds of of that "This rock keeps tigers away" 'theory', despite the fact the rock may be situated in Ohio.


4) The Economy: Regardless of his questionable spending policies the economy is booming, and yes it is booming, and unemployment is lower than it was under Clinton and tax revenues are increasing along with the economy. Yes, our debt is increasing, but spending is a separate issue and one that I dislike him for.

Thats odd, I just searched the internet, and found an article, released today saying the American Economy is cooling.

Also:

According to the Council on International and Public
Affairs (CIPA), the real U.S. rate of unemployment, if
properly calculated, would be 11.4 per cent - more than
double the official rate. The CIPA listed seven major
changes in the definitions of "employed" and "unemployed"
that were made in the U.S. methodology that have had the
combined effect of substantially reducing the number of
Americans officially listed as being jobless.

Among the categories dropped from the labour force
survey, in addition to the discouraged, were the under-16
group, those on strike or locked out and those who weren't
actively looking for work in the four weeks prior to the
survey. But by far the largest group omitted from the list
of jobless in the U.S. are the working-age men who are out
of work because they are in prison or on parole.

The 1.5 million American men in jail and the 8.1 million
on parole make up nearly 10 per cent of that country's male
workforce. By not including them in its labour force survey,
the U.S. is able to reduce its official unemployment rate by
more than five per cent.

[Bond]

Why I don't respect Bond's arguments: He makes it personal, trying to defame people and their points of views.
So, just because I make it "personal" means I don't perform research and know what I'm talking about? That's cruel.

I'll make my argument non-personal when I get a chance.

[Fox 6]

So, just because I make it "personal" means I don't perform research and know what I'm talking about? That's cruel.

I'll make my argument non-personal when I get a chance.

When you get a chance? So you didnt have a chance this time?

That suggests you make your arguements out to be personal in the first place.

[Bond]

Has the Bush administartion actually accomplished anything beneficial for the American people in the last six years?
Accomplishments are of course in the eye of the beholder. Conservatives would say yes, liberals would say no. I think Bush has done a good job with defense (minus Iraq) and with the economy. He has not done so hot with several domestic issues.

The Bush administrations spends all of your money on war.
Untrue. More money is spent on Medicare and Medicaid than on defense. More money is also spent on Social Security than defense. (source (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy00/descriptions.html))

Trillions of dollars.
Approximately 318.5 billion dollars will have been spent on the Iraq War on September 30, 2006. So not trillions of dollars. (source (http://costofwar.com/numbers.html))

He went to war on false pretenses. He said that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. And then a couple years down the road he DENIES having said anything of the sort.
I'll avoid getting into a he said/she said affair, but I will make a quick case for invading Iraq. Although I would like to say that I do not think we put enough troops into Iraq intentionally and still do not have enough troops in Iraq and we went about that side of the war the wrong way.

I believe Bush's goal of the Iraq war was two fold. One, to stabilize the Middle East - the most volatile area of the world. And two, stabilize the oil supplies found in the Middle East. It's pretty much common knowledge our country was built on cheap energy... which isn't becoming so cheap anymore. So basically we need to control as much oil as possible until research will speed up in other fields (which it really should have a long time ago).

Now, you may ask why we invaded Iraq and not Iran for example. One reason is that Iraq would have been much easier to invade than Iran. And two would be location.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/images/map_middle_east.gif

Iraq is situated between Iran and Syria - two volatile governments. With a democratic state on their borders it will pressure these reigmes to democratize their own countries. It's been done before in history if you would like to research the domino theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_effect).

[Bond]

When you get a chance? So you didnt have a chance this time?

That suggests you make your arguements out to be personal in the first place.
I was being sarcastic with regards to my arguments being personal (which is why it was in quotes). I didn't have time to make a proper reply because I was in the process of reformatting my harddrive.

[Professor S]

There also weren't large-scale terror attacks prior to 9/11

Well, actually the World Trade Center was bombed back in the early 90's, it just failed to bring the building down. Of course we just ignored it prior to Bush being in the white house. Bush is the first president to take terrorism seriously, and with good reason.

Your point for number 3 reminds of of that "This rock keeps tigers away" 'theory', despite the fact the rock may be situated in Ohio.

I never said Bush was sitting on the border himself keeping attacks at bay, I said his POLICIES have kept us safe. Policies, including open intelligence with key allies such as Great Britain. You know, kind of like the coordinated stoppage of the latest attack that was planned for last week.

Its alwaus oing to be difficult to prove that any governments policies stop terror attacks for the reason that its hard to prove something on the LACK of something. Me? We've been attack free since 9/11 , with the two PROVEN protective stoppages I mentioned before that you ignored, and thats proof enough for me.

Thats odd, I just searched the internet, and found an article, released today saying the American Economy is cooling.

1) Cooling is one thing, and is relative to how well it was going before, saying its bad is another.

2) Please provide a source for that unemployment number, as it is pretty provacative and goes against every number I've seen. Also, I would need to see the data of the TIME that these criteria were changed, if its accurate to begn with, to see if Bush has been working with skewed numbers or if every multiple presidencies have.

Honestly? This number seems outrageous to me and I would have to see it to believe it. It would equal the unemployment rate of France and you would think we would share the same social strife that they are experiencing right now if that was the case.

[Jason1]

4) The Economy: Regardless of his questionable spending policies the economy is booming, and yes it is booming, and unemployment is lower than it was under Clinton and tax revenues are increasing along with the economy. Yes, our debt is increasing, but spending is a separate issue and one that I dislike him for.



The Economy is Hardly "Booming" It might not be in complete shambles like it was after 9/11, but Its nowhere near "booming"

Anyways, Bush may have done a few good things for this country. But the simple fact is that the War has been a complete and utter failure, ending thousands of American lives for no reason, and spending billions of dollars for no reason. There will never really be democracy over there. We should just cut our losses and pull out.

[Typhoid]

2) Please provide a source for that unemployment number, as it is pretty provacative and goes against every number I've seen. Also, I would need to see the data of the TIME that these criteria were changed, if its accurate to begn with, to see if Bush has been working with skewed numbers or if every multiple presidencies have.

I forget what I typed in the google search to get it now, so dont beleive me, and feel free to think I stuck a random number into an article. But it makes sense. There is a very good chance, that in the unemployment rate, the people in prison are not counted, because that would greatly raise the rate.

[Bond]

Here's your source: http://www.cariboo.bc.ca/carryon/dcharbon/forum/usa.htm

[Professor S]

Typhoid, I was never claiming you invented the article or numbers, instead I wanted to see how valid the source was, and it turns out with good reason. Here is another quote from that article, which I found to be HILARIOUS

Among the categories dropped from the labour force
survey, in addition to the discouraged, were the under-16
group, those on strike or locked out and those who weren't
actively looking for work in the four weeks prior to the
survey. But by far the largest group omitted from the list
of jobless in the U.S. are the working-age men who are out
of work because they are in prison or on parole.

So we're not including those not looking for work (a.k.a. stay at home parents, homeless who don't want to work, and a few others), kids in school under 16, the "discouraged" (whatever the hell that means), PRISONERS and most likely those on disability?

GOOD. Now we can use a REAL unemployment number, meaning those that want and need work, instead of using numbers that would only inflate the reality of the situation. As for part time workers... they are still EMPLOYED and it wouldn' make any sense to say that they aren't. BTW, from what I've seen the rest of the world usues the same standards that we do when calculating this numer, so if we are at 11+% France and Germany must be at about 16-17%

And Jason1, could you explain to me what you consider a booming economy to be? Our unemployment IS LOW (sorry Typhoid it is), our stock market is still doing well even if it has evened out lately, our GNP continues to rise and our revenues to the government continue to increase even though taxes were cut. How is that not a booming economy? Most of these standards were met under Clinton and that is viewed as the end all of economies even though it was build on a false basis (internet companies).

[Xantar]

2) Down with Kyoto Treaty: I know immediately you might see this as a big negative, but thats on first blush. The fact is this had almost nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with One World Politics, as was admitted by UN officials. China was never going to sign that treaty and for America to do so would have held the US under a severe disadvantage for the long term and would have damaged our economy considerably. There are better ways to be eco-friendly without hamstringing ourselves.

I have a question, and really I'm just curious because I think you do make a good point and it's not my intention to try to refute it. But my question is: what do we do about China? They are the world's second biggest polluter, and at the rate they're going, they'll surpass even the United States about 20 years from now. And they know that imposing environmental policies on themselves could cripple their long-term economic prospects. And it's not like anybody could threaten them with military or economic sanctions. No sane diplomat would suggest enforcing an embargo against China or anything. So what do we do about them?

3) Security: The fact is there haven't been any attacks since 9/11 and President Bush's policies in this area have helped lead to the thwarting of at least 2 documented attack plans by our enemies. There may have been even more. If you don't believe that number, fine, check for yourselves.


If you're including the liquid explosives plot from last week in your "2 documented attack plans by our enemies," I'm not sure we should give Bush all that much credit. The terrorists were all British citizens attempting to board planes in London. Also, the main intelligence source in thwarting the plot is known to be a British agent who infiltrated the terrorist ranks. A lot of praise has also been given to Pakistan for providing valuable intelligence to the British to help them confirm that an attack was in the planning stages.

It would have been a terrible attack, and it's great that the British were able to stop it. But I'm just not sure President Bush's policies were all that instrumental.



And Jason1, could you explain to me what you consider a booming economy to be? Our unemployment IS LOW (sorry Typhoid it is), our stock market is still doing well even if it has evened out lately, our GNP continues to rise and our revenues to the government continue to increase even though taxes were cut. How is that not a booming economy? Most of these standards were met under Clinton and that is viewed as the end all of economies even though it was build on a false basis (internet companies).

First of all, the fact that our GDP (or GNP, if you prefer to use that) continues to rise means nothing. It's almost always rising. And we've already been over the tax numbers. The very IRS numbers that you dug up several months ago show that tax revenue dropped drastically after Bush's tax cuts and are only just now approaching the levels of the later years of the Clinton administration.

Anyway, GNP is not the only measure of the economy. A look at the median income is also revealing. This (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p05ar.html) is a decent table from the Census Bureau. It shows that from 1980 to 2000, the average increase in inflation adjusted median income for men was about $194.15 per year and $346.80 per year for women (the fact that women's income is rocketing up compared to men is pretty interesting, too, but that's another discussion). From 2001 to the end of 2004, inflation adjusted median income for men and women fell despite the fact that everybody got a tax cut. The last time median income fell was during the recession in the later years of the first Bush Administration. And the last time it happened before that was right before and during the recession of the early 1980s. Also, this PDF file (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty04/pov04fig03.pdf) shows that our poverty rate has been steadily climbing since 2001.

I'm not pointing this out just to because I'm liberal and I hate inequality. These numbers are also bad for the economy. Note that in the second link I provided, only a brief period in 2001 is declared as a recession. What these numbers are showing is that GDP has been growing all the rest of the time, but people haven't been growing richer along with the economy. You can understand intuitively how this is bad for us. The economy is literally driven by people's spending. When people have more money to spend, they buy more stuff which gives the people they buy from more money to spend which means they buy more stuff etc. When people have increasingly less money to spend, the opposite spiral takes effect. What's been happening recently is that our economy has been growing by squeezing more labor out of workers without matching wage increases to keep up. This is not sustainable in the long term. Eventually, either wages have to catch up to the growing GDP (inflation) or GDP growth has to slow down.

By the way, I tend to think that the boom years during the Clinton Administration are mostly attributable to the tight economic policies of the elder President Bush. Clinton was smart enough not to screw everything up, but it is the nature of our economy that the beneficial effects of our fiscal policies are not usually felt in full force until the next administration. I don't think the ultimate effect of George W. Bush's policies will not be known until 2008.

Also, what brought this thread on anyway? I don't like President Bush, but it's not like he suddenly became bad this month. Right now he's pretty much acting the way he always has, and there hasn't even been a major scandal lately.

[Professor S]

I have a question, and really I'm just curious because I think you do make a good point and it's not my intention to try to refute it. But my question is: what do we do about China? They are the world's second biggest polluter, and at the rate they're going, they'll surpass even the United States about 20 years from now. And they know that imposing environmental policies on themselves could cripple their long-term economic prospects. And it's not like anybody could threaten them with military or economic sanctions. No sane diplomat would suggest enforcing an embargo against China or anything. So what do we do about them?

When it comes to China, pollution is the least of my worries. China is in bed with too many of the wrong kinds of people, namely North Korea and Iran, with Iran being the perhaps the greatest threat to West right now. First we need to get China to be a GOOD friend of the West, and then we can worry about pollution.

Back to the point, we should use China's burgeoning capitalism against them. We (meaning the Western world) need to have the strength and cooperation to place trade embargos on China if need be. The US needs to have the strength the rip Wal-Mart, Google and other major western owned employers from the country. China now has a taste for capitalism, and if we deny them that foodstuff, they might just have to play ball. Notice I say might. Right now the world is as dangerous as it has ever been, and anything can happen, so I won't pretend to predict what China will do. As for Iran, I'm pretty sure I know what they want to do (its in their constitution) but thats a point for another thread and scares the BEJEEZUS out of me.

Well stated on the economy, Xantar, but yours isn't the only view (as relevant as it is). There are many factors that are decreasing the expendible cash flow that have nothing to do with company success and revenues and salaries, like the rise in gas prices and general wartime hesitance. And as for the income statistics, there are many that believe salaries inflated far too quickly with the economy in the 90's and helped greatly in the internet collapse of the early 00's. So the numbers that you quoted would be a false comparison if this were accurate. In this theory, the drop is more of a correction of salaries that never should have been as large as they were, rather than a reflection of the economy. In fact, the stability of this economy considering the rising gas prices and war-weariness is amazing, especially considering the economy has little to do with wartime supply production. You say tomater, I say tomoter. :)

I do think that as the war continues to go on, it will continue to effect the economy negatively, along with the rising gas prices (hopefully they are starting to level out). I doubt it would create a recession, though, barring some unforseen happenstance... like... you know... World War 3. (I'm kidding, but not really)

[Typhoid]

Right now the world is as dangerous as it has ever been

Now, im not picking a fight, if you see it that way.

However, I personally just dont agree with this.
To me, that is just sort of proof of the American Media.
The world was far more dangerous with things such as the crusades, and the holocaust. Now, I know you're not saying the world right now, in its semi-peaceful manor is more dangerous than a world that was entirely at war, where mass genocide was being conducted. And I know you're not saying the world is more dangerous now than it was back in the times of crusades and mass slaughterings due to religious beliefs. Now I know in a time where liberalism, high gas prices and the Koran may be rampant, that still doesnt really seem to come off as being up there with the holocaust, Roman/Ottoman Empire, or the crusades.

[Professor S]

Now, im not picking a fight, if you see it that way.

However, I personally just dont agree with this.
To me, that is just sort of proof of the American Media.
The world was far more dangerous with things such as the crusades, and the holocaust. Now, I know you're not saying the world right now, in its semi-peaceful manor is more dangerous than a world that was entirely at war, where mass genocide was being conducted. And I know you're not saying the world is more dangerous now than it was back in the times of crusades and mass slaughterings due to religious beliefs. Now I know in a time where liberalism, high gas prices and the Koran may be rampant, that still doesnt really seem to come off as being up there with the holocaust, Roman/Ottoman Empire, or the crusades.

Ty, the American Media has nothing to do with this opinion. In fact, what scares me the most is what our media DOESN'T report, or at least doesn't pay much attention to...

1) Iran is shelling northern Iraq, trying to kill the Kurds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1852843,00.html

2) Iran recently attacked and took over an Romanian oil rig, breaking all kinds of international law
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=adVreywC1G_k&refer=home

3) Hezbollah has a strong foothold in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon, if not MORE countries and the fact that the international community (including the US) is now REGOTIATING with them only gives them more credibility and power in the region.

4) Hezbollah is basically a proxy army of Iran, not unlike the SS was for WW2 Germany.

EDIT: Two items have been verified.

** Please note the above information is taken from the Glenn Beck program and I have not double checked its authenticity. Beck does have a good track record and that it why I have posted them as fact. Contradicting articles and fact are welcome.**

If the above are 100% accurate, we are in big big trouble. Glenn Beck referred to something called The Perfect Storm. That is when all the dominos fall in the right order to send the world into chaos, like happened in WW1, WW2, etc. In fact, you mentioned some of them yourself. I'm not saying we are going to have WW3 and neither did Beck, but we are on the PRECIPICE of it. Honeslty, I think it all lies with Iraq. If we leave Iraq before they can sustain their government and defend themselves, Iran will storm in and take the south and all of the oil fields, I will guarantee that will happen. They'll also most likely take the north. With hezbollah's influence in the remaining countries Iran will have its best chance to unite the majority of the ME under one country.

If that happens, and I pray it doesn't, all bets are off. The western world will be at risk and not because of nuclear weapons, but because of OIL. You let Iran control the oil in the ME, and they will use it to crush the West. They've said that is their plan and HELL, its in Iran's CONSTITUTION to bring down western society.

The problem is, the world seems unwilling and unable to deal with Iran on any level. Iran basically does whatever it likes with no consequence and Thom gains more and more credibility in his own nation as well as others.

Something needs to change, and change quickly.

[Jason1]

So in a nutshell, under the Bush Administration, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. More or less. And I know that inflation during the bush years has risen more per year than during the clinton years. So things are costing more and more, yet salaries for most of us are not getting any bigger.

[Xantar]

When it comes to China, pollution is the least of my worries. China is in bed with too many of the wrong kinds of people, namely North Korea and Iran, with Iran being the perhaps the greatest threat to West right now. First we need to get China to be a GOOD friend of the West, and then we can worry about pollution.

Back to the point, we should use China's burgeoning capitalism against them. We (meaning the Western world) need to have the strength and cooperation to place trade embargos on China if need be. The US needs to have the strength the rip Wal-Mart, Google and other major western owned employers from the country. China now has a taste for capitalism, and if we deny them that foodstuff, they might just have to play ball.

Then I guess the question is whether China needs us more than we need them. An embargo against China denies us everything from cheap underwear to Playstations. It would be a huge blow against our economy, and you just know that the EU would jump at the chance to fill in the void. It's nice to try to hold the threat over their head, but I fear that we've grown too dependent on Chinese manufacturing to stop now (unless we find another good partner. Brazil, perhaps?).

I've actually been thinking that if we succeed in stabilizing and controlling the supply of oil in the Middle East, we have some real leverage against China who is growing thirstier for the stuff every year. Of course, it's highly unlikely that we could get Saudi Arabia at our beck and call, but if we were at least the most favored oil trading partner, we might have an advantage against China. Just a thought, though.

[Professor S]

So in a nutshell, under the Bush Administration, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. More or less. And I know that inflation during the bush years has risen more per year than during the clinton years. So things are costing more and more, yet salaries for most of us are not getting any bigger.

Well if you wanted to look at things in the most simplistic view possible and ignore the littany of extenuating circumstances and every argument I've made on this thread, then yes your summation is 100% accurate :rolleyes:

Why do I bother posting any information when people are just going to ignore it and keep thinking what they want to regardless of multiple view points? I must be a masochist.

[Professor S]

Then I guess the question is whether China needs us more than we need them. An embargo against China denies us everything from cheap underwear to Playstations. It would be a huge blow against our economy, and you just know that the EU would jump at the chance to fill in the void.

I wasn't just referring to the US performing an embargo, but the entirety of the world (meaning UN). We could not do this alone, because as you said, it would hurt us terribly. But an isolated China would have few options.

This is highly unlikely to ever happen, but if came down to it that would be an effective option.

[Bond]

Of course, it's highly unlikely that we could get Saudi Arabia at our beck and call, but if we were at least the most favored oil trading partner, we might have an advantage against China. Just a thought, though.
Reminds me of Syriana...

[Jason1]

Well if you wanted to look at things in the most simplistic view possible and ignore the littany of extenuating circumstances and every argument I've made on this thread, then yes your summation is 100% accurate :rolleyes:

Why do I bother posting any information when people are just going to ignore it and keep thinking what they want to regardless of multiple view points? I must be a masochist.


Hey, I like to simplify things, for the younger generation.