Socialism in Action

[Professor S]

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/11/07/258994.html

Rioting by French youths spread to 300 towns overnight and a 61-year-old man hurt in the violence died of his wounds, the first fatality in 11 days of unrest that has shocked the country, police said Monday.

Chirac said unemployment runs as high as 40 percent in some suburban neighborhoods, four times the national rate of just under 10 percent, Vike-Freiberga said. On Sunday night, vandals burned more than 1,400 vehicles, and clashes around the country left 36 police injured, setting a new high for overnight arson and violence since rioting started last month, national police chief Michel Gaudin told a news conference.

Attacks overnight Sunday to Monday were reported in 274 towns, and police made 395 arrests, Gaudin said.

About 4,700 cars have been burned in France since the rioting began and 1,200 suspects were detained at least temporarily, Gaudin said.

The growing violence is forcing France to confront long-simmering anger in its suburbs, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with high unemployment, racial discrimination and despair _ fertile terrain for crime of all sorts as well as for Muslim extremists offering frustrated youths a way out.

France, with 5 million Muslims, has the largest Islamic population in Western Europe.

I think the reasons for the violence are more than just the unemployment rate, but I do think that is the main reason. I mean, 40% dependending on race and ethnicity? And everyone thought America was the home of racism and inequality...

Politics aside, I really hope that Chirac can get things under control and the violence stops. There are a lot of innocent people getting hurt.

[GameMaster]

If Africans and their French-born children don't like living on society's margins, perhaps they shouldn't have chose to live in Paris. Some people just enjoy setting themselves up for a lifetime of misery.

And if the youths think asinine rioting is going to land them a job, let them to continue to be the butt of this joke. I'm sure the prisions are going to need a lot more cafeteria personnel to dish out the mush. That kind of job will fit the incompetent youths like a glove.

I hope Chirac is able to bring justice down on the trouble makers and sustain peace in his land. And I pray for the safety of the adults, elderly, and travellers in Paris who are in the midst of the violence.

[Krypton]

some awful things going on in this world.

[The Duggler]

Strangler, why "Socialism in action"?

[Typhoid]

I think the reasons for the violence are more than just the unemployment rate, but I do think that is the main reason. I mean, 40% dependending on race and ethnicity? And everyone thought America was the home of racism and inequality...



Anyone who thinks that America is the home of racism and inequality is retarded, and needs to learn more on South Africa.

[Dylflon]

Socialism is a pretty sweet idea as long as you don't screw it up.

Strangler, you can have your capitalism. Whatever. I don't care.

I'm going to go over here and farm potatoes.

[Typhoid]

Hey now, I support the capitalism scum.


Its capitalism that made me wealthy.


The system hasnt screwed me over, therefore, Capitalism is my benefial friend.

You can farm your potatoes, yes. But just wait until I buy your land and services from you and then whore out your work like a hooker sucking a golfball through a garden hose.

[Professor S]

Socialism is a pretty sweet idea as long as you don't screw it up.

Unfortunately its impossible not to screw it up, because its that flawed. In theory, wonderful, but thats because it doesn't take the fact that human beings will be running it.

[Dylflon]

Unfortunately its impossible not to screw it up, because its that flawed. In theory, wonderful, but thats because it doesn't take the fact that human beings will be running it.


Well maybe if we weren't all so corrupt.

But that won't ever happen.

[Bond]

Well maybe if we weren't all so corrupt.

But that won't ever happen.
But the idea of humans not being corrupt is unrealistic. Which is why democracy works.

[Professor S]

Well maybe if we weren't all so corrupt.

But that won't ever happen.

Its not about corruption, its about incentive, drive, self-worth and desire. Socialism becomes corrupt because it doesn't take any of these concepts into effect.

[Dylflon]

Its not about corruption, its about incentive, drive, self-worth and desire. Socialism becomes corrupt because it doesn't take any of these concepts into effect.

Socialism won't work because we think in terms of a capitalist model, you see.

Incentive, drive, self-worth, desire would exist in socialism as well. It's just in capitalist terms we see all these things as being tied in with income.

I'm not saying I'd really want full on socialism anyhow. I just thought it would be fun to bandy the idea about.

I do however like a lot of socialist ideas that can be applied to the capitalist model.

Free healthcare, anyone?

[Xantar]

I'm still waiting to hear why this thread is titled "socialism in action." From what the minorities in France are saying, the riots don't have anything to do with their country's universalized health care, its tax code, its distribution of property or any of that. They're angry because they think (and probably with good reason) that the white majority is racist. They point to the fact that even educated Muslims can't get a job in France because of all the snobbishness. A good quote I heard that sums it up: "If you're poor and your father doesn't speak perfect French, you have no chance."

It's deplorable, but I don't see where socialism fits in.

P.S. I'm no socialist myself. Being the son of refugees from a socialist country doesn't make me very inclined to be a fan of Marx. I'm just asking for a bit of clarification.

[Professor S]

I will admit to being a bit hyperbolic in my title, mainly to gain a little steam for the traffic (I am prone to do so, if you haven't figured that out :D), but my feelings about socialism still fit in even if they shouldn't be the main focus of this particular thread. Also, France insn't a truly socialist nation, as you know, but they have adopted many socialist constructs.

In my observation socialism or socialist constructs cause people to be dependent on the government for their livelihood (in a general sense), whether it be a welfare system, healthcare and so on and so forth. As we we all know, you can't depend on the government to run anything right, so if you have to depend on it, it will fail you.

A lot of my feelings on the unemployement rates of France, Germany and others don't come from the article I posted, but of my belief that socialism breeds abuse by leaders and apathy by constituents. Most people want to work for a living, but there are also a good amount that will not do a damn thing if you don't make it necessary for them to do so.

A people become dependent on the government, the government fails them and the people get angry that they aren't being taken care of the way the government promised.

P.S. - I am actually a very big fan of Marx... as a social and political critic. The observations in his books were revolutionary (pun unintended but I'll still take it :D) and very accurate. His solutions, though, were misguided to say the least and have been misinterpreted to the point that literally millions have died.

[Neo]

I thought this whole thing was because of those two dumbsh$ts that ran from the police and got themselves electrocuted.

[Professor S]

I thought this whole thing was because of those two dumbsh$ts that ran from the police and got themselves electrocuted.

Do you think that the fact that two idiots ran from the police and got themselves electrocuted would start riots in 300+ cities if there weren't other, more important factors involved? The electrocutuions were just an excuse for violence... not the cause.

As for free healthcare... I'll pass. I've heard too many horror stories and seen for myself (girlfriend's father's heart transplant) how badly government run healthcare works. I hate waiting 2 hours in a waiting room for my appointment, much less two months.

[Xantar]

Every system, whether public or private, will have its horror stories, and I think complaints about universal health care systems can be a bit exaggerated. In any case, even if there are waiting lists, I don't think you will find many Canadians or British or Germans who would rather have our system.

[Neo]

Do you think that the fact that two idiots ran from the police and got themselves electrocuted would start riots in 300+ cities if there weren't other, more important factors involved?


No but with French people you never know.

[The Duggler]

Do you think that the fact that two idiots ran from the police and got themselves electrocuted would start riots in 300+ cities if there weren't other, more important factors involved? The electrocutuions were just an excuse for violence... not the cause.
In fact the electrocutions of the 2 immigrants was the cause.

Yes there's other factors that fuels this conflict, but the electrocutions was the spark that started it all.

After the electrocutions, a group of immigrant started a small riot claiming that the police was responsible for the death of the 2 young man. Shortly after that France's interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, called the people responsible for the riot, rabblers. And I think that's when it got out of hands.

Calling those people rabblers was certainly a dumb thing to in that situation, but I certainly agree with the term used.

[Neo]

For Sale: One French Army Rifle, never used, dropped once.

[The Duggler]

What's with the stupid jokes Neo?

Upset with the fact that they didn't join the US in the war on terror?

[Typhoid]

For Sale: One French Army Rifle, never used, dropped once.


That was the most horribly placed joke ever.


I remember I got (what I think was) the first DD for making a joke about a puppy once.

Surely a stereotypical joke about an entire nation of people isnt better than a joke about a puppy.

[Fox 6]

For Sale: One French Army Rifle, never used, dropped once.
Stolen joke from Full Metal Jacket. :mad:

[Professor S]

In fact the electrocutions of the 2 immigrants was the cause.

Yes there's other factors that fuels this conflict, but the electrocutions was the spark that started it all.

After the electrocutions, a group of immigrant started a small riot claiming that the police was responsible for the death of the 2 young man. Shortly after that France's interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, called the people responsible for the riot, rabblers. And I think that's when it got out of hands.

Calling those people rabblers was certainly a dumb thing to in that situation, but I certainly agree with the term used.

I think you missed my point. I was concentrating on the 300+ cities, most of which couldn't give two craps about the two electrocutions. If you want to play semantics, go right ahead, but even Chirac has admitted that the reason for this wave of violence is about social inequality, not two immigrants.

There is always the straw that breaks the camels back...