Hurricane Katrina

[manasecret]

Today the gods have decided to crush New Orleans in biblical proportions.

Or something. I don't know what to say, I'm supposed to be on the road to New Orleans from Houston right now, for my final year at Tulane, but instead I have to wait for who knows how long. It's a blessing for me in a way, because I wasn't ready to go at all, but I fear for the city. I'm truly scared of what will happen.

The city was built 9 feet below sea level, and the only thing protecting it day in and day out from destructive flooding is the system of levies they have and the massive water pumps that pump out flood water. But those levies against the will of a storm surge from a direct hit of a category 5 hurricane? Gone. The city could be under 15 feet of water before it's over. And pumps underwater, which they would be, apparently don't work.

I'm fortunate that I wasn't on the road or, worse, all moved in. My thoughts go to all the people in New Orleans and others in the wake of the storm.

[Jonbo298]

Maybe its just me but I want to see pictures of New Orleans and downtown area under 15+ feet of water just to see how bad it can get for once since New Orleans has been saying for a looong time if they ever got hit with a massive hurricane, it would be absolutely devastating as the pumps can't keep up or if they go underwater are screwed anyways.

But thoughts are out to the people of the city. It's gonna turn into hell but it will only be for a "short" time

[Bond]

Riding on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central Monday morning rail
Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail.
All along the southbound odyssey
The train pulls out at Kankakee
Rolls along past houses, farms and fields.
Passin' trains that have no names,
Freight yards full of old black men
And the graveyards of the rusted automobiles.

Good morning America how are you?
Don't you know me I'm your native son,
I'm the train they call The City of New Orleans,
I'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.

[BlueFire]

Hurricane Katrina is a persitent asshole. :]

She rammed right through my area on Thursday, and did decent damage for a category 1 storm. Everyone underestimated the storm. Hell, I did too. There are still thousands without electricity down here and won't get electricity until Friday. If a category 1 caused some havoc here, I can only picture what this cat. 5 monster will do. I still remember when Andrew came here in 92.

My thoughts are with the people of New Orleans. I hope most of them escaped this thing's wrath.

[Acebot44]

This sounds horrible for the people of NO, but like Jonbo, I also want to see how it all pans out and what the underwater city would look like.

[The Duggler]

"New Orleans Is Sinking"

Bourbon blues on the street loose and complete
Under skies all smoky blue-green
I can Forksake the dixie dead shake
So we dance the sidewalk clean
My memory is muddy what's this river I'm in
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim

Colonel Tom What's wrong? What's Going On
You can't tie yourself up for a deal
He said" Hey North you're south shut you big mouth
You gotta do what you feel is real."
Ain't got no picture postcards ain't go no souvenirs
My baby she don't know me when I'm thinking about thoes years

Pale as a light bulb hanging on a wire
Sucking up to someone just stoke the fire
Picking out the highlights of the scenery
Saw a little cloud looked a little like me

I had My hand in the river
My feet back up on the banks
Looked up to the lord above and said hey man thanks
Some time I fell so good I gotta scream
She says Gordie baby I know exactly what you mean
She said, she said I swear to god she said

My memory is muddy what's this river I'm in
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim

[DeathsHand]

The levees I think they said were somewhere along the lines of 15-20 feet tall, but the storm surges are expected to easily surpass that (could be around 35 feet)...

The city could be flooded for as long as 90 days...

Estimated that at least 80% of wooden structures in the area will be destroyed...

The tall office buildings and such could sway to the point of collapse...

Anybody crazy (or drunk) enough to have not evacuated or found a decent place to take shelter face certain death...

And now for some cheesey song lyrics: ..... Nah I got nothing.

[GameMaster]

It is expected to be the most powerful cyclone to hit the United States in recorded history, with winds projected by the National Weather Service being in excess of 179 mph.

Yikes! Everyone please remain in safety during this dangerous time. :bab:

[Dyne]

Wow. I can't imagine my area being flooded. Just insurmountable damage. A lot of buildings made with wood could be rotting after something like that.

[Stonecutter]

This is what you get when you build a city below sea level not 100 miles from a very large body of water.

And man there's gonna be some good darwinism coming to the people that stick it out.

[The Germanator]

Wow...This hits a bit close to home as the Spinto Band played in New Orleans exactly a week ago. I guess we are very lucky and I feel bad for anyone in that town, they have some good jambayala there.

[Neo]

The governor of Biloxi is comparing the hurricane to the tsunami even though 54 people died in MS and 220,000 died in the tsunami.

[DeathsHand]

The governor of Biloxi is comparing the hurricane to the tsunami even though 54 people died in MS and 220,000 died in the tsunami.

54 people have been confirmed dead in MS (and I think a majority of those were from a single county)...

While that's still a silly comparison, once all is said and done, the death toll will be much higher than that...

And when it comes to damage to structures and such, this probably could be considered 'our tsunami'...

[DeathsHand]

I apologize for the 'double post', but incase anybody hasn't (for some reason) heard the news (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/29/national/main802131.shtml):

Hours after the storm had passed (and seemingly spared) New Orleans, the levees gave way, and a short while later the pumps failed... The city is now filling up like a bowl, and it's not expected to stop until it reaches the level of Lake Pontchartrain (some 4 feet above sea level)...

The bodies of the dead are being ignored so emergency workers can focus on rescuing survivors, all of whom will eventually have to be shipped out of the city...

In the meanwhile, there has been widespread looting, and I believe I heard that martial law was declared...

Flood Slideshow (http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/breakingnews/slideshow/083005_dmnkatrina/1.html)

[Jonbo298]

Everyone told New Orleans to expect the worst if ever hit directly by a hurricane and well, this is about as close as they will probably get to a direct hit by a Cat 4/5 storm

[Acebot44]

Hmm

I like the post, I think it's awful, but it's also time to derape the H scroll, sorry


Resize it and repost it


- SC

[DeathsHand]

Of course, I thought that was common knowledge... :confused:

:sneaky:

[manasecret]

My little story.

Tulane University won't open until I've heard 9/27, but that sounds optimistic. So instead Tulane students are scrambling to register for any university in their area where they can at least take some classes. Rice University is just one of many universities helping Tulane students out, and since I'm in Houston that helps me. They're taking applications until 9/8 and they'll let us know that very Monday 9/12 if we're accepted.

I think it's super generous of them, and I'm applying. I'm guessing humanities are the classes that most people will take, because they would be easy to transfer. Unfortunately for me I'm in my fourth year of engineering, which includes the final project, and I need only one more non-engineering class. So this won't help me get closer to graduating. But at least I can keep my mind sharp. I'm sitting here at home doing nothing. You know that useless feeling you get when you're not doing anything at all? What do you do when you feel selfish doing anything besides help, but there's so little you can do to help?

However, I am in a good position to help here in Houston. Since practically all of the Superdome evacuees are coming to the Astrodome, they're asking for volunteers (my brother-in-law is already helping).

It's just that I'm not worried about the ones already in Houston, they have food and water and air conditioning and everything they need. The ones dying are still stuck in Nola. Babies and old folks are dying in that New Orleans heat, and they have very little potable water and any food. And those are the ones that we can do nothing to help. We can only hope that the military and government agencies can get them out as quick as possible.

I know I have the least of the problems. I was only renting in Nola, and I hadn't even moved in yet. Plus I'm safe. But university students like me are still a small part of the story that I thought you'd like to hear about.

[Professor S]

I'm sorry, but the Presient should have stepped in days ago and federalized the relief efforts. I understand that running the nation means you need to let local governments such as mayors and governors take the first crack, but when their "first crack" ends with rapes, murders, mass hysteria and people starving to death on the streets, IT'S TIME TO REPLACE THOSE WHO SCREWED IT UP. It's like Somalia down there with gangs and "warlords" running the show.

Where are our nations resources? Where are the M.A.S.H. units to treat injury and disease? Where are the trucks, busses and supplies that we have stockpiled ( and yes they are still here and not in Iraq)?

What the Hell is going on?

[Jonbo298]

I was gonna crack a "joke" and say They are all in iraq but you kinda did it already :p

[Acebot44]

Where are our nations resources? Where are the M.A.S.H. units to treat injury and disease? Where are the trucks, busses and supplies that we have stockpiled ( and yes they are still here and not in Iraq)?

What the Hell is going on?

Maybe our government would rather let us or our fellow Americans weed themselves out of existence rather than having to do it using fedeal forces a few years from now. I'm not paranoid, nope.

[manasecret]

Mayor Ray Nagin is pissed. He feels the same way as you Strangler, here's what he said:

Nagin:

But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

The rest of the interview is here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html).

He's angry, and I think he has every right to be. I can understand the frustation, and can only guess how horribly dire it must be to be waiting in the bleeding heat waiting for rescue.

But I think it's the hurricane's fault, and we need to remember that. Things could certainly have been done better, but it's a disaster situation that people didn't know how to deal with. The hurricane is what killed and is killing people, not people who made mistakes.

[Professor S]

It's Nagin's problem too.

I don't think Nagin has any leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing others. He has been a complete failure as a leader to his constituency, and in fact he's one of the reasons why I think that Bush should have responded sooner. The only right thing he did was to order the evacuation. As for leadership ability, he is a complete idiot and has more in common with Chicken Little than Mayor Rudy Guliani.

Was there much he could have done in the grand scheme of things to fix the problems? No, but he could have attempted to maintain the civility and sense of community in his city instead of basically proclaiming the hurricaine `the end of days'. If he had chosen to lead, I don't believe the rioting and social de-evolution would have been as bad.

Watching the news today, it looks like Bush is finally going to but more federal resources behind the rescue and survival efforts, but unfortunately he is several days and probably a few thousand lives too late.

[manasecret]

I think you're right about Nagin, too. This was all terribly handled, and everyone in the government I think will have to answer for it at the least when their reelection comes up. People dying in the streets is unacceptable, considering the resources this great country has.

At the same time, good things are happening. The people are getting moved out, whether late or not. And once they're out, I can tell you since most are in Houston they're getting all the basic resources they need. But I think we need to look at what's next now.

These people are poor and most likely have no insurance. No insurance means these people can't afford to rebuild. So what do they do? Where do they go when New Orleans is drained but they have no money to get back to New Orleans, let alone rebuild their homes? Sounds like the poor just getting poorer.

So what's the solution: build them new homes in the city that will be likely flooded again when the next hurricane hits? Pay off their debts so they can afford to go back into debt to rebuild? Will the $10.5 billion that congress passed go into helping these poor people, or will it go to help the people who have insurance and therefore don't need it nearly as much?

I think the evacuated New Orleanians will end up staying in Houston or in other cities in Texas, and I think they should. New Orleans is a forsaken city for the poor, and while no city is perfect I think they have a far better chance at good jobs outside of New Orleans. Now I have no statistics on that, that's just my opinion after seeing life in Houston compared to life in New Orleans firsthand. Either way, no matter where they end up, I hope that the federal aide goes largely to these people.

This all just opinion and I'm just trying to offer solutions. Any thoughts for solutions? My other solution is to bring them hundreds of Shipley donuts in the morning. :) I think a bit of normal life would help, but I heard on the news that a group of people who brought a large batch of cooked hotdogs to give out were turned away because they weren't approved by the gov't health organizations. Flippin' ridiculous...

[Vampyr]

Yeah, there has been a lot of talk that New Orleans isn't even worth rebuilding. They are half right.

I mean, they were stupid to build a city in a mud hole anyway, and any attempt to keep a city in a mud hole is like trying to hold water in your hands.

Then again, it has one of the most vibrant and interesting cultures in the USA.+

[Jonbo298]

I think Bush and others should have seen and known ahead of time that when the talk is of "utter destruction" or "Pumps are very likely to fail and New Orleans will go underwater very easily" that you prepare troops and tell everyone the US Gov't is here and ready to help once the worst has passed.

Instead, it seems like "hmm, a hurricane...ok" *1 day after it hits* hmm, there seems to be alot of damage and flooding. Well...lets wait until the media points the finger at us to do anything.

I seriously predict that once the media lessens the coverage of the desturction/people looting, they will find out why New Orleans became a hell hole of water. The blame will be placed on the government and other people for not suppying enough funding to ensure pumps won't fail as badly as they did. Granted, Katrina is "almost one of a kind" so it was had to prepare for something you don't know if it will occur but expect alot of finger pointing for the failure of levee's and pumps with funding to improve them

[Professor S]

I seriously predict that once the media lessens the coverage of the desturction/people looting, they will find out why New Orleans became a hell hole of water. The blame will be placed on the government and other people for not suppying enough funding to ensure pumps won't fail as badly as they did. Granted, Katrina is "almost one of a kind" so it was had to prepare for something you don't know if it will occur but expect alot of finger pointing for the failure of levee's and pumps with funding to improve them

I don't think the pumps or the levee's are an issue. The pumps were only intended to handle flood waters from rain runnoff or a minor levee break. The pumps were never inetended to handle three enormous breaks. As for the levee's themselves, well, I don't think the walls of Troy could have kept Katrina at bay. We're talking nearly 200 mph winds, a 30 foot storm swell topped with 25 to 30 foot waves. Goodnight nurse.

Katrina was just another reminder from Mother Nature that we are forever at her mercy. The main issue is why more wasn't done sooner, and it's a question that we need to have asked by a congressional hearing. When the head of Homeland Security is trying to get information to the suffering people in a destroyed city through a friggin' website that no one can access... heads need to roll and FEMA needs to be reorganized.

[Jonbo298]

I know that all blame can't be placed on the pumps, I was just referring to the fact that years before they had predictions for if "the big one" hit and it didnt even really get much attention. Granted, pumps may have had a harder time but I'd imagine if the pumps were upgraded, the water wouldn't be still as high in New Orleans. There may still be water but it still won't be as high as rooftops still by today ;)

[Xantar]

My dad works at the National Archives, and I went on a tour of the place some four or five years ago. One of the things they showed me was a sort of disaster map of New Orleans. It had plans for what to do in case of a gas attack, where to place the police when a riot erupts for some reason, how to deal with an earthquake etc. The person who showed me the map pointed out that the city is in a basin without all that much protection from the ocean. His words were something like, "The government's worst nightmare is that a hurricane hits New Orleans. The engineers have worked out that in that case, the city would literally disappear."

You would think that when Katrina was identified and marked two days before it hit the coast, the government would have woken up and thought, "Oh no! This is the big one! It's unacceptable to have any human beings in the city when it arrives."

I prefer not to cast blame because there will be plenty of time for that later. But I also wanted to alert you all to something:

If you receive an e-mail urgently asking for money to be sent to a relief fund for Katrina, DO NOT REPLY. Do not click any of their links or send any money to any addresses they give you. Those e-mails are spammers trying to cash in on the disaster and steal your money or credit card number. Real charities do not spam your inbox. Ever.

You know, as much as I hate murder and terrorism, there are times when I really think somebody should blow up a spam king's house...

[Krypton]

I feel depressed when I see this stuff on the news, seeing what all those people had to go through, I especially feel bad for the elderly and the ill ones, being there is no power, and its hard to get supplies. I would like to see what New Orleans looks like after this is all over.

[Jonbo298]

Yeah, I wanna see the images of N O after the water is finally drained just to see how bad the devastation truly is. Right now its mostly covered by water (obviously :p )

But another thing that concerns me is that it seems like they ordered the mandatory evacuations too late and people probably underestimated how devastating it could be.

If it was made widely public that this hurricane will put New Orleans underwater and was shouted throughout city to everyone, I suspect more would have left

[The Germanator]

Here are Kanye West's thoughts on the whole matter, highlighted by the quote "George Bush doesn't care about Black people."

http://media.putfile.com/Kanye79

[Acebot44]

+ Rep to Kanye

[DeathsHand]

- rep to Kanye in my book...

Seems like anytime black people are involved in any sort of negative situation, the subject of race always pops up... Which really I find more disturbing and (dare I say) racist than any possible (yet very unlikely) racial motivation that was supposidly there to begin with...

"George Bush doesn't care about black people"... I guess he doesn't care about the white, latino, or asian people down there either then...

Fun Fact: As of the 2000 census, African Americans accounted for 67.25% of the population of New Orleans... This would explain why a majority of the people shown on the news are black...

So did help arrive later than it should have? Probably... But I'd like for someone to try and show us one single drop of hard evidence that this lack of initial effort was due to a majority of the population being black... Or that Bush 'Doesn't care about black people'...

I don't even really like Bush, but I'm sorry, the whole race issue is just silly...

[Jonbo298]

Exactly what I'm thinking DH. Kanye is good to speak out but the choice of words could have been better

[Bond]

Kanye West is such a Golddigger...

[Dylflon]

http://www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/boobs.jpg

In poor taste?

You decide.

[Acebot44]

I like this (http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/aaron_broussard.mov) video.

My props go to Kanye because he actually said something which he felt was right. His dad was a Black Panther, so I can see where his opinion could stem from, along with the lack of federal response to this event.

And here's (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8695) the story that puts me on his side. This basically goes to say that a staged relief station was set up for a photo op and then torn down within 24 hours. So a more accurate thing for Kanye to say would have been "The government does not care about poor people."

[manasecret]

Yeah, I wanna see the images of N O after the water is finally drained just to see how bad the devastation truly is. Right now its mostly covered by water (obviously :p )

But another thing that concerns me is that it seems like they ordered the mandatory evacuations too late and people probably underestimated how devastating it could be.

If it was made widely public that this hurricane will put New Orleans underwater and was shouted throughout city to everyone, I suspect more would have left

It was made widely public that this hurricane would destroy New Orleans. I knew it from here in Houston, and they definitely knew it there in Nola. The governer or mayor of some town in Mississippi said he was "scared to death" by Katrina a day or two before the storm. If that isn't enough to get someone out, there's not much else to do.

I think they did everything they could to tell people to leave Nola, barring going from street to street and house to house forcing people to leave which is a logistical impossibility with the day and a half they had. And it sounds good to say that they should have ordered the mandatory evacuation earlier, but it wasn't certain that it would hit Nola EVEN at the time of when they ordered the evacuation.

I've only lived in New Orleans about three years now, but I've already been through four or five hurricane scares. Every year I've been there New Orleans has ordered an evacuation (sometimes two evacuations), and it always turned out to be nothing. It becomes a joke, a fun time and a holiday. Now imagine living there thirty years and going through that every year--you stop caring. Obviously many people weren't so ignorant, but there are always gonna be some who ride it out.

About the race issue, I think it's not a race issue. I agree with DeathsHand. I however DO think it's a valid TOPIC to bring up, I mean you'd have to put your blinders on to not notice that the evacuees that were stuck were mostly black and mostly poor. But I completely disagree that it's a race issue. The mayor of New Orleans is black--what about him? Isn't he largely responsible for New Orleans? Or is he racist, too? And remember, this is one of THE worst disasters EVER to occur in the U.S. This was no one's fault but Katrina herself.

[Xantar]

And remember, this is one of THE worst disasters EVER to occur in the U.S. This was no one's fault but Katrina herself.

That's all very well and nice except for a minor little detail: nobody is blaming anybody for Hurricane Katrina. Not even the angry black people crying racism in New Orleans are blaming Bush for the hurricane. They blame him for the response.

People already knew that the estimated death toll if the levees failed would have eclipsed 9/11. So why did Bush wait an extra few days before getting back to D.C.? Why was Condoleeza Rice shopping on her New York vacation until somebody literally screamed "What the hell are you doing?" How did the head of FEMA somehow manage to tell reporters that he wasn't aware of refugees in the Superdome even though footage of people dying in there had been playing on TV the entire day? Why were reporters with TV cameras able to drive right into the disaster area days before any National Guard showed up?

I'm not saying that I necessarily blame anybody, but these are valid questions that will need to be answered when the disaster is over.

As for the racism issue, I don't know how much of a leg they have to stand on. However, it is valid to question whether the response would have been much faster if 90% of the people stuck behind had been white instead of black. You can't honestly tell me that your reaction to news footage would have been exactly the same if every miserable face you had seen had been white.

[DeathsHand]

You can't honestly tell me that your reaction to news footage would have been exactly the same if every miserable face you had seen had been white.

mmmm yeah mine probably would have been the same... And you can't honestly say that it wouldn't have... honestly... :sneaky:

[manasecret]

That's all very well and nice except for a minor little detail: nobody is blaming anybody for Hurricane Katrina. Not even the angry black people crying racism in New Orleans are blaming Bush for the hurricane. They blame him for the response.

People already knew that the estimated death toll if the levees failed would have eclipsed 9/11. So why did Bush wait an extra few days before getting back to D.C.? Why was Condoleeza Rice shopping on her New York vacation until somebody literally screamed "What the hell are you doing?" How did the head of FEMA somehow manage to tell reporters that he wasn't aware of refugees in the Superdome even though footage of people dying in there had been playing on TV the entire day? Why were reporters with TV cameras able to drive right into the disaster area days before any National Guard showed up?

I'm not saying that I necessarily blame anybody, but these are valid questions that will need to be answered when the disaster is over.

As for the racism issue, I don't know how much of a leg they have to stand on. However, it is valid to question whether the response would have been much faster if 90% of the people stuck behind had been white instead of black. You can't honestly tell me that your reaction to news footage would have been exactly the same if every miserable face you had seen had been white.

You're absolutely right, these questions do need to be asked. Just like the racism question should be asked.

It's just that all I hear is people pointing fingers on the news now. While I think it's right to ask questions, I think it's also right to sit back for a moment and remember that this is a major disaster, and you cannot prepare for everything that will be needed in a disaster like you can with hindsight. It's a disaster, that's the nature of it.

Also remember that the day after Katrina hit, EVERYONE thought New Orleans had just barely avoided the disaster. "Big Easy Breathes Big Sigh of Relief" is only one actual headline of many on Tuesday the day after. On Tuesday Mississippi was by far the worst off. So you have to imagine the gov't thinking, hey, New Orleans is fine let's go help Mississippi. Then by the time they realize Nola needs help, they're moving towards Miss. and the streets in Nola are completely flooded making it difficult to get help in and power and water are down and the levee breaks and it becomes a big and now a surprise disaster. I've already made all these points, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

I think people dying on the streets like this is unacceptable. But the vast majority did make it out of New Orleans safe, and now Americans are being extremely generous to help them in any way possible. Let's hope Katrina is a lesson learned for the gov't, and I think asking questions about the response will help make sure of that.

And like DeathsHand, yeah, maybe you can't but I can honestly say it would be the same response for me. Thank you for not assuming others are racist.

[Typhoid]

I'm not sure how true this is, because I didn't watch the news story on it, I just heard that it was IN the news...



But Vancouver resuce teams were sent down there, and then they were sent back because someone in New Orleans said they "werent needed".


If you have rioting, mass evacuations, dead people in the streets, shouldnt you accept all the help you can have? Why send people back?

**** that, bring more people in. Have an army of rescue people helping.

[Swan]

I'm not sure how true this is, because I didn't watch the news story on it, I just heard that it was IN the news...



But Vancouver resuce teams were sent down there, and then they were sent back because someone in New Orleans said they "werent needed".


If you have rioting, mass evacuations, dead people in the streets, shouldnt you accept all the help you can have? Why send people back?

**** that, bring more people in. Have an army of rescue people helping.
I read that they saved like 30 people...

[Professor S]

As for the racism issue, I don't know how much of a leg they have to stand on. However, it is valid to question whether the response would have been much faster if 90% of the people stuck behind had been white instead of black. You can't honestly tell me that your reaction to news footage would have been exactly the same if every miserable face you had seen had been white.


I think the response had more to do with money than color. I really think we live in a nearly colorless society now, but not a classless society. We are more culturally bigotted than racially bigoted. (I have no idea how to spell biggotted so I'm trying several versions :D). If you were walking down the street at night and saw a group of young black males dressed in hip-hop (man, I feel white just saying that) clothing, would you get nervous? Now, put them in Armani suits. See my point?

I believe that the response was slow do to the fact that the destruction did not hit the national GDP very hard. I think in running a government, those who run it often have to work in abstractions, and that can lead to a large human cost if you don't catch yourself in times of need. The human and material cost of 9/11 had a dramatic effect on our countries economy, and the strength of any nation lies in its economy. I believe that is why the response was so quick and strong in that case. Add to that the "Pearl Harbor" effect, and you have a truly national crisis.

Meanwhile in New Orleans, those that ran the businesses and had control of the monies involved were the ones that escaped. Therefore the toll that the ecomy took was pretty much material alone and unavoidable. The ones that were keft behind are more the "replaceable" working masses, or even those dependent on the government and who take more than they give to the economy.

If saving as many of those left behind as possible would have pushed the stock market to new heights or would have kept gas prices down, the entire fleet of Greyhound busses would have been commadeered (yet anither word I can't spell) the next day. It's just a sad fact that because of America's previous fascination with racism, those that fall in the economically expendable category in major cities (not nationally, though) tend to be minorities. The white trash in tornado allet have to deal with the same thing.

[Xantar]

It's just that all I hear is people pointing fingers on the news now. While I think it's right to ask questions, I think it's also right to sit back for a moment and remember that this is a major disaster, and you cannot prepare for everything that will be needed in a disaster like you can with hindsight. It's a disaster, that's the nature of it.

...

I think people dying on the streets like this is unacceptable. But the vast majority did make it out of New Orleans safe, and now Americans are being extremely generous to help them in any way possible. Let's hope Katrina is a lesson learned for the gov't, and I think asking questions about the response will help make sure of that.

So what exactly do you want? I'm confused. On the one hand, you're saying that it's a disaster and it couldn't have been totally prepared for and that's the nature of the beast. On the other hand, you're saying the deaths are unacceptable and that you hope the government learns a lesson. What would you have us do exactly? What do you expect to happen after all the questions are asked? How is the government going to learn a lesson unless somebody is held accountable? It seems to me that you would like the government to sit down and collectively say, "Sorry. We messed that one up. We'll do better next time." The only other way I can interpret your post is that you are trying to double talk by saying that we should "ask questions" but also realize that this is a natural disaster, as if that means that nobody screwed up and got thousands of humans killed. I'd rather not assume the worst about your post, though. Everybody knows this was an act of nature. I don't understand why you keep trying to insist on that point as if it makes any difference.

It seems to me that you are somehow offended by blame being cast. Sorry, but when somebody screws up, he or she has to be made responsible for it. And in this case, there is no doubt that somebody did screw up. Politicians are now busily trying to throw the blame away from themselves, and that's bad. But that doesn't mean every finger pointed is wrong. A lot of people have died unnecessarily. That is beyond doubt. You can say that nobody could have been prepared for this situation and recite more excuses all you want, but the fact of the matter is we pay a lot of good money for our government to be prepared for every contingency. We ought to demand the very best preparation, planning and organization possible, and I find it hard to believe that this was present with Hurricane Katrina, particularly with an Arabian horse trader running FEMA. This is the government that says it has plans to take care of us (or at least minimalize casualties) in case of a catastrophic biological attack.

But Hurricane Katrina was an act of nature. It wasn't forecast far enough ahead of time to get every last person out of the city. It was a bit unpredictable.

Ok, fine. Now what?


And like DeathsHand, yeah, maybe you can't but I can honestly say it would be the same response for me. Thank you for not assuming others are racist.

Question: my mom is an Asian woman. Do you think she's taller than you or shorter than you? Do you think she speaks English perfectly? Do you think she's more likely to be an actress by profession or a doctor? Do you think she was an avid surfer in her youth?

Everybody notices race (except maybe the blind). I could even pull studies to show that if you wanted. The first thing anybody notices about somebody else is their ethnic background (or what they think it is). When shown portraits and asked to pick words or describe feelings, people choose differently depending on the race of the person they see in the portrait and for no other reason. It just seems hard-wired into us. I choose to acknowledge the fact that I do this and deal with it honestly. Frankly, I think anybody who pretends they are totally colorblind is just in denial.

I'm not saying that we all saw black people in New Orleans and immediately thought, "Oh, well they're black so they don't matter." I'm not saying that any of us care less just because the faces we see are of a certain color. I'm not even saying that any of us literate, middle-class, relatively well-educated people talking here on this message board would react less urgently if we had seen white people dying in the streets. But deep down, something does register differently, and it's fair to ask whether that really does affect the national response because really, we aren't going to know unless a few thousand white people really do get killed in a natural disaster. It's been proven, unfortunately. And even if you think you really are so enlightened and better than all the random subjects in studies, how confident are you that every single government official involved in the relief effort is the same way?

I say let's just be honest. We all make stereotypes. It's our brain's way of working with incomplete information, and psychologists actually think that for the most part, we wouldn't function very well without it. All the same, trying to deny what's going on in our heads isn't going to help anything. I'll bet you've been resisting this whole line of argument the entire time, but here's the question you should be asking yourself: is that absolutely, completely because you think I'm spouting a load of hogwash or is it because if it really is true, you wouldn't feel so good about yourself?

If you were walking down the street at night and saw a group of young black males dressed in hip-hop (man, I feel white just saying that) clothing, would you get nervous? Now, put them in Armani suits. See my point?

Now make them white peolpe dressed in hip hop clothing. Do you feel just as nervous about them?

[Professor S]

Now make them white peolpe dressed in hip hop clothing. Do you feel just as nervous about them?

Late at night, in the same situation? Hell yes, Mr. Fatty McManboobs (since you refuse to all me by my name, I'll be calling you anything I want from here on out. This should be fun. :D).

[Xantar]

Late at night, in the same situation? Hell yes, Mr. Fatty McManboobs (since you refuse to all me by my name, I'll be calling you anything I want from here on out. This should be fun. :D).

And if they were Asians? Sorry, but as someone who gets stereotyped all the time, I find that a bit hard to believe. It's not that I'm even bothered by it or anything. But I see it there all the same, and it's a basic fact of life.

And in any case, doesn't your "I feel so white saying that" bit kind of belie your claim to colorblindness?

[Jonbo298]

Well, water draining has begun...time to wait to see just how bad it is under all that water

[manasecret]

But Hurricane Katrina was an act of nature. It wasn't forecast far enough ahead of time to get every last person out of the city. It was a bit unpredictable.

Ok, fine. Now what?

There, that's exactly what I want. Just a reminder to each person before they go on a witchhunt blaming everyone. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. All I want is patience and prudence and understanding of the magnitude of the disaster. You say that no one is arguing the fact that it was a natural disaster, but I think people seem to forget that fact.

On another note, I'd like to see how much the TV people and politicians who are throwing all the blame around have done to help the evacuees.


I'm not saying that we all saw black people in New Orleans and immediately thought, "Oh, well they're black so they don't matter." I'm not saying that any of us care less just because the faces we see are of a certain color. I'm not even saying that any of us literate, middle-class, relatively well-educated people talking here on this message board would react less urgently if we had seen white people dying in the streets. But deep down, something does register differently, and it's fair to ask whether that really does affect the national response because really, we aren't going to know unless a few thousand white people really do get killed in a natural disaster. It's been proven, unfortunately. And even if you think you really are so enlightened and better than all the random subjects in studies, how confident are you that every single government official involved in the relief effort is the same way?

I say let's just be honest. We all make stereotypes. It's our brain's way of working with incomplete information, and psychologists actually think that for the most part, we wouldn't function very well without it. All the same, trying to deny what's going on in our heads isn't going to help anything. I'll bet you've been resisting this whole line of argument the entire time, but here's the question you should be asking yourself: is that absolutely, completely because you think I'm spouting a load of hogwash or is it because if it really is true, you wouldn't feel so good about yourself?



Well the split-second reaction to the appearance of someone is not what I thought you meant, so I guess we misunderstood each other. I've already said that race in this situation is a valid topic, considering the disproportionate amount of blacks to other races.

I think, though, that if we would help and volunteer and give just as much as if they were white, then what difference does the "deep down" region matter? It seems you're talking about the unsconscious mind vs. the conscious mind, which for me wouldn't make any actual difference in how I helped. I personally don't think that it took George Bush's conscious mind three days to click in and say, hey, these are people, too. Maybe it did, I don't know, but I don't think so. And that goes for everyone who was helping.

If you disagree fine. I'm not trying to argue but I guess when you're on a message board that's the only way it comes out. I was only angry because I took personal offense to what I thought you were saying that I would have volunteered more and given more money or whatever if they were white.

[manasecret]

Sorry for the double-post. Buuut..

Looks like we're not the only ones having this discussion, Xantar.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4217024.stm

The comments after the story are what I'm talking about. Many of the people are leaving very similar comments to your posts.

I thought it was interesting to see that this discussion is happening all over the world.

[Bond]

We had a huge discussion about this exact same issue in my political science class. Tempers flared, hearts were broken.

[DeathsHand]

Well the split-second reaction to the appearance of someone is not what I thought you meant, so I guess we misunderstood each other.

Same... I mean of course I'm gonna notice someone is black, asian, or whatever... It's just one of their features... Probably the most obvious one at first glance... But to me it's not really any different than their hair color, height, weight, whatever...

But you (Xantar) seemed to be implying that my reaction would be different if it was a bunch of white people suffering, which I took to mean that I would for some reason be more upset and donate more money or something because they are "my people"...

As for Stereotypes... That's an issue that deals with more than just race... And while they may be unfair in many instances, there is always some truth to them... Do I think your mom would be shorter than me because she's an asian woman? Well, considering I'm 6'1 or 2", and most asian people (or women for that matter) I've met have been shorter than me, if I were betting I'd put my money on yes... Are all asians or women shorter than me? Of course not... If I met your mom and you hadn't mentioned a thing about the whole 'short asian' issue, would I give two hoots? I doubt it...

Also, wether I'm afraid of whites, blacks, or asians in hip-hop clothing would, to me, have more to do with where I am...

I pass people like that of all kinds of colors here in Arlington and think nothing of it (except that they look friggin goofy)... If I was say, at a club in a run-down area of DC at night and people like that passed me, then yes I'd probably feel a bit nervous (especially so if they were paying extra attention by glaring at me, as some of them do)... But at the same time, if I was saaaay in the Georgetown area of DC, I'd probably think nothing of it...

[Professor S]

And if they were Asians? Sorry, but as someone who gets stereotyped all the time, I find that a bit hard to believe. It's not that I'm even bothered by it or anything. But I see it there all the same, and it's a basic fact of life.

And in any case, doesn't your "I feel so white saying that" bit kind of belie your claim to colorblindness?

If it were Asians, and they were dressed in hip-hop clothing late at night, I would syill be nervous about it. Yes, I would.

And there is a difference between recognizing racial differences and the cultural differences that can come with it, and believing in a colorblind society. I was referring to the days that were only 50 years ago (maybe less) when no matter what kind of car or suit a black man was wearing, he would still be treated like trash. I don't think that happens very often anymore. Ok, maybe in Alabama, hence my "nearly" qualification ;). But I think we have come to the point where the cultural differences that have resulted from our previous years extreme racism have more of a effect on our reactions to race, than the color of people's skin.

Afterall, stereotyping isn't just afflicted to minortities. If you see a white guy with a mullet and a Dale Earnhart Jr. T-shirt, you won't think that they are a doctor, will you? The human brain has a need to stereotype, anyway. Its called building social schemas. Stereotypes will always exist, because doing so is a natural function. The human brain simply cannot handle analyzing every person you've ever met on a person by person basis. I just believe that for the most part our schemas have moved beyond the simple category of race, and have adjusted to make allowances for class.

[Xantar]

There, that's exactly what I want. Just a reminder to each person before they go on a witchhunt blaming everyone. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. All I want is patience and prudence and understanding of the magnitude of the disaster. You say that no one is arguing the fact that it was a natural disaster, but I think people seem to forget that fact.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask again: so what? If everybody were to recognize and acknowledge that Katrina was a natural disaster, what exactly do you expect to happen? You haven't answered that question. What specifically do you expect would be different? Would fewer people be sacked? Would that be fair? Would we be better prepared for, let's say, a tsunami hitting Baltimore as a result of acknowledging somehow in the back of our heads that this was not human made? What is supposed to be the result of your reminder? Patience and prudence and understanding? Please explain to me precisely what that means.

I just don't see where this is all supposed to be leading. Even supposing that we've all somehow forgotten that Katrina was a natural hurricane, that's not the reason why there is a lot of false finger pointing going on. That's merely because a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats are covering their asses. What does the fact that Katrina was natural have to do with that? It's like saying that if some joints fail on a rollercoaster causing it to derail and kill dozens of people, we should all step back and remember that they were killed by the laws of physics.

In the end, if the system works and all goes well, the people who screwed up will be held responsible and fired (and probably have their public reputations torn to shreds). I can't see that your point will make any difference to that one way or another except perhaps to allow some people to duck responsibility and claim, "Well, it's not MY fault! Nature did it!" At best, your repeated posts here haven't struck me as anything more than meaningless platitudes and will continue to do so.

I think, though, that if we would help and volunteer and give just as much as if they were white, then what difference does the "deep down" region matter? It seems you're talking about the unsconscious mind vs. the conscious mind, which for me wouldn't make any actual difference in how I helped. I personally don't think that it took George Bush's conscious mind three days to click in and say, hey, these are people, too. Maybe it did, I don't know, but I don't think so. And that goes for everyone who was helping.

If you disagree fine. I'm not trying to argue but I guess when you're on a message board that's the only way it comes out. I was only angry because I took personal offense to what I thought you were saying that I would have volunteered more and given more money or whatever if they were white.

I never said that Bush himself was racist. I'm only suggesting that if there's a subconscious reaction and the dozens upon hundreds of people in the government involved in disaster relief all have it, could that possibly, maybe, change something about the response?

In any case, you still have every right to be offended seeing as I'm calling your posts useless.

I just believe that for the most part our schemas have moved beyond the simple category of race, and have adjusted to make allowances for class.

Oh, I have no doubt that there's a lot of classism going on in our society. I just don't think that necessarily excludes racism as well. Why can't there be both? Surely we do a lot better now than we do fifty years ago, but just because we don't see very many lynchings these days doesn't mean racism is all gone. If you really need evidence, though, go read up on some stories about Middle Eastern taxi cab drivers after 9/11.

And let me be clear, I don't mean to say that racism is necessarily oppressing minorities exclusively and in all ways. And I also happen to think that our stereotyping and schemas work out ok among those of us lucky enough to have a strong education and lots of exposure to all kinds of different people.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really apply to the majority of Americans.

[manasecret]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask again: so what? If everybody were to recognize and acknowledge that Katrina was a natural disaster, what exactly do you expect to happen? You haven't answered that question. What specifically do you expect would be different? Would fewer people be sacked? Would that be fair? Would we be better prepared for, let's say, a tsunami hitting Baltimore as a result of acknowledging somehow in the back of our heads that this was not human made? What is supposed to be the result of your reminder? Patience and prudence and understanding? Please explain to me precisely what that means.

...

In any case, you still have every right to be offended seeing as I'm calling your posts useless.

Xantar, you obviously have a lot of anger (made clear by that last comment) and aren't even discussing anymore, in my opinion. I'm not trying to have an argument but you continue to keep one going. Maybe I'm not helping either, but I thought I made it clear. I thought I was making what I was trying to say simpler by saying to have patience and understanding, but I guess you still don't get it or I'm not clear enough.

Either way, I'm not going to argue with you.

[Fox 6]

Either way, I'm not going to argue with you.
Too late....

[Xantar]

Oh, I understand it perfectly, and my blood pressure is just fine and normal. I understand that you are urging patience and prudence. What I don't understand is how that makes any difference whatsoever. All you've been doing is repeating yourself and attempting to make your point "simpler," but that was never the problem. In my mind, you're failing to move the discussion forward because, I don't know, you're afraid of argument or something.

Just because I said you were pointless doesn't mean I'm mad. If you want to make me mad, I suppose patronizing me by implying that I'm not thinking straight because of my emotions and that I need to have your point said "simpler" in order to get it will be a good start. Really, you ought not to read more into my posts than exactly what is there because as I'm sure you know, bare-bones text doesn't communicate all that well.

Are my questions really that hard to answer? I can think of a few answers to them myself. Something like, maybe, "We ought to get relief to the victims first and worry about who's to blame later when the facts are clear. Right now, we don't even know the death toll." I don't know that I would have agreed with it, but it's at least something other than repeating the word "patience" over and over again. How much patience do you want? Here's a possible answer: "Enough patience to let a bipartisan commission investigate the events even though that might take a year. It worked out for 9/11."

I've been pressing you because all I wanted was a clear answer on something like that, and I honestly thought you could give me one. Surely you had some real ideas about what having patience would look like. Otherwise, again, what's the point of repeating it? I might as well get up on a box and shout to everybody, "Let's have intelligence! I urge us to be smart!" That simply isn't going to get us anywhere.

[manasecret]

Oh, I understand it perfectly, and my blood pressure is just fine and normal. I understand that you are urging patience and prudence. What I don't understand is how that makes any difference whatsoever. All you've been doing is repeating yourself and attempting to make your point "simpler," but that was never the problem. In my mind, you're failing to move the discussion forward because, I don't know, you're afraid of argument or something.

Just because I said you were pointless doesn't mean I'm mad. If you want to make me mad, I suppose patronizing me by implying that I'm not thinking straight because of my emotions and that I need to have your point said "simpler" in order to get it will be a good start. Really, you ought not to read more into my posts than exactly what is there because as I'm sure you know, bare-bones text doesn't communicate all that well.

Are my questions really that hard to answer? I can think of a few answers to them myself. Something like, maybe, "We ought to get relief to the victims first and worry about who's to blame later when the facts are clear. Right now, we don't even know the death toll." I don't know that I would have agreed with it, but it's at least something other than repeating the word "patience" over and over again. How much patience do you want? Here's a possible answer: "Enough patience to let a bipartisan commission investigate the events even though that might take a year. It worked out for 9/11."

I've been pressing you because all I wanted was a clear answer on something like that, and I honestly thought you could give me one. Surely you had some real ideas about what having patience would look like. Otherwise, again, what's the point of repeating it? I might as well get up on a box and shout to everybody, "Let's have intelligence! I urge us to be smart!" That simply isn't going to get us anywhere.

I thought I provided more than enough reasons for both sides of the discussion with that link to the BBC article. I'm sorry to patronize you. I shouldn't have even started discussing with you about it because I never meant to have an argument, so it's my fault. You're right, I'm afraid of an argument--on a message board. I get no satisfaction out of it.

[Professor S]

Oh, I have no doubt that there's a lot of classism going on in our society. I just don't think that necessarily excludes racism as well. Why can't there be both? Surely we do a lot better now than we do fifty years ago, but just because we don't see very many lynchings these days doesn't mean racism is all gone. If you really need evidence, though, go read up on some stories about Middle Eastern taxi cab drivers after 9/11.

And let me be clear, I don't mean to say that racism is necessarily oppressing minorities exclusively and in all ways. And I also happen to think that our stereotyping and schemas work out ok among those of us lucky enough to have a strong education and lots of exposure to all kinds of different people.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really apply to the majority of Americans.

Maybe I was too strong in my verbage of my opinion. Let me boil it down for you:

If you were to place a black man next to a white man next to a asian man, and they were naked and similar in most physical ways, you would have different stereotypes that you would place on each one, but I don't believe that those strereotypes would be very strong (unless you were raised in an malignantly racist family). The way that these men then choose to dress and behave will act as either a magnifying factor or an overriding factor to those original stereotypes.

So yes, racism still exists, but I believe that culture has far overtaken race and is much more prevalent.

[Krypton]

I heard on the news that theres around 150 drains in the city of New Orleans, and only 23 were draining water out of the city. :(


i'm very doubtful on whether or not New Orleans will ever be the same city again.

[manasecret]

I can't read Krypton's last post, page five isn't showing.... I wonder if this will help..